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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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Droodle

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The issue for Geno has always been the opportunity cost issue for Nintendo and Sakurai. Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest aren't just massive series, they're massive series that have have defined Nintendo consoles and have massive fan bases in their own right. Passing on Cloud or Hero would have been, to be blunt, pretty dumb considering how much value they add to the game for certain people and how much those franchises can mean the world to certain people. And that's not exactly an issue that has been resolved. Square Enix has a ton of great and beloved titles, several of which with continued connections to Nintendo (Octopath Traveler and Bravely Default II have been positioned as two of the Switch's biggest third party releases) or have lit the world on fire (Nier's become a huge success story and 2B herself has turned into a new icon practically overnight) or are literal icons of gaming in of themselves (Lara Croft and Sora even if he technically is Disney).

Sure, Banjo & Kazooie were able to handle that opportunity cost question... but think of how much more they had going for them. They were previously owned by Nintendo outright, they had a top level Microsoft executive supporting their inclusion in Smash and even somewhat directly influencing people to believe in their possibility at the right time for the Smash Ballot, they were practically the mascots of Rare and by extension mascots of the N64 era for Nintendo, and they wholly represented a unique universe as the main characters of their game. Geno just doesn't really have any of that. He's got "Deuteragonist" of Super Mario RPG, a unique collaboration between Nintendo and Squaresoft that did well on release, fan support (polls well, but also doesn't get the same amount of more universal love that Banjo & Kazooie, King K. Rool, or even Ridley got... they all had detractors, but there's also just a much larger percentage of people who are either wholly apathetic to Geno or actively against him), and Sakurai having some interest in him... It's just not the most compelling set of circumstances for a fighter when other characters could be on the table. Being a end of life Mario RPG Deuteragonist that isn't even the titular character of his game since it's a Mario game first and foremost just isn't the most weight.

I won't be terribly surprised if Nintendo picks him, and I'm a big fan of Super Mario RPG, but I also don't have much expectation that they'd invest in him. At least Microsoft could choose to capitalize on the good will of Banjo & Kazooie in some way with a new game... but Square Enix can't really do much at all with Geno even with all the good will in the world unless they go all out on a Super Mario RPG 2 with Nintendo, and that's really their only benefit from including him. So I don't see Square Enix fighting for him any time soon either, and he has to absolutely get past the hurdle of actually being picked by Nintendo first. He's a fan request, sure, but so are 20 other popular and more marketable and inherently beneficial to Nintendo and/or the other companies involved. The time he has been requested isn't inherently some indicator of value or "deserving to be the next fan request to get in."
Adding onto the opportunity cost perspective is the fact that he not only has competition inside of Square-Enix, but also within Nintendo, and even inside the Mario fanbase. Without getting into "meme" picks, a ton of Geno fans think that Geno should get in because he would represent Mario RPGs. But a potential Paper Mario, does the exact same thing while advertising a property that Nintendo still owns and is still an active character. Sure PM is not a huge request, but there are some people who do want to see him in, the major complaint usually thrown out is that he'd be "another Mario" which doesn't really fit because they could make him incredibly unique. On the other side of things you have Waluigi, who's just as requested as Geno, if not more so; again, he's fully first party so he wouldn't have to worry about negotiations with a potential 3rd party AND unlike Geno he's still an active character. Another major character is Toad, who while isn't requested at all, is still a major playable character in most Mario games nowadays.

So really, Geno's problem is that there are a good chunk of MARIO characters that apply to his "niche" but do it better, are easier to negotiate with, benefit Nintendo more, are more active, or a combination of these. That's not to say Geno is impossible or Geno can't get in, but that there are a ton of obstacles in Geno's way, more so than just Square-Enix. People like to bring up Banjo-Kazooie when trying to support Geno, but it's like you said; Banjo has a completely different set of circumstances that helped his inclusion.
 

EricTheGamerman

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Adding onto the opportunity cost perspective is the fact that he not only has competition inside of Square-Enix, but also within Nintendo, and even inside the Mario fanbase. Without getting into "meme" picks, a ton of Geno fans think that Geno should get in because he would represent Mario RPGs. But a potential Paper Mario, does the exact same thing while advertising a property that Nintendo still owns and is still an active character. Sure PM is not a huge request, but there are some people who do want to see him in, the major complaint usually thrown out is that he'd be "another Mario" which doesn't really fit because they could make him incredibly unique. On the other side of things you have Waluigi, who's just as requested as Geno, if not more so; again, he's fully first party so he wouldn't have to worry about negotiations with a potential 3rd party AND unlike Geno he's still an active character. Another major character is Toad, who while isn't requested at all, is still a major playable character in most Mario games nowadays.

So really, Geno's problem is that there are a good chunk of MARIO characters that apply to his "niche" but do it better, are easier to negotiate with, benefit Nintendo more, are more active, or a combination of these. That's not to say Geno is impossible or Geno can't get in, but that there are a ton of obstacles in Geno's way, more so than just Square-Enix. People like to bring up Banjo-Kazooie when trying to support Geno, but it's like you said; Banjo has a completely different set of circumstances that helped his inclusion.
Haha, I literally just added an additional paragraph since I forgot to recognize the Mario opportunity cost from within Nintendo as well. Glad someone else caught that as I was so laser focused on Square Enix originally in my post.
 

OrpheusTelos

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guys i think i made a breakthrough on who the arms character is gonna be

take a look at who misango's va is
4F24A176-1885-4607-9624-AF1FAFE5225C.jpeg

that's right, his va is also named sakurai, just like smash sakurai

misango win
 

NonSpecificGuy

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I think the main problem with Geno is that, yeah he’s popular...now. But his popularity has fluctuated so much between games that it is crazy. One of the main reasons his thread is so large now is because of some leaks, the Mii Costume, and a specific leaker which isn’t a bad thing but before this, just judging by the thread size of Smash 4, Geno’s popularity was minimal. Geno’s thread had roughly 3,000 posts. Comparatively, someone who is rather less popular by most standards now, Isaac has around 19,000 posts, Krystal has around 13,000, who assuredly did well in the ballot, and as we saw the only thing those characters got were assist trophies. Now obviously if everything depended on popularity on SmashBoards dot com then we would never have gotten characters like Ryu and Cloud but noticeably the hub for Geno popularity is right here. You can go to pretty much anywhere else and yeah there’ll be discussions but they’re light compared to here. And I’m not sure if Sakurai really checks SmashBoards if I’m being honest.

What I’m saying is, maybe Geno’s popularity exploded way too late. Unless Sakurai started digging for characters that are popular between the Fighter Pass’s I don’t think we’re getting him. It’s possible sure but the timeline just doesn’t add up. The Mii costume sparked a real conversation especially with K. Rool being compared to it and then leaks and a specific user whom is adamant about the character being in but I think it was just a little too late.

Anyways, I would love Geno, I really would. I’m actually ONLY a fan of Super Mario RPG and not really at all for Paper Mario or Mario & Luigi. It’s just, now is his best shot, but I don’t think his popularity is expansive enough to catch the attention of Nintendo. Not like K. Rool, and not like Ridley. I do hope I’m wrong though
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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Jesus ****ing christ Misango is tall
Really, none of the ARMS characters' heights are what you'd expect. The most similarly proportioned ones look to be the same height, but...

Spring Man is 5'11''.
Ribbon Girl is significantly shorter at 5'6''
Min Min is an inch shorter than that.
With how culturally inspired these characters are, you'd think Ninjara would be short since ninja favor being short, but he's 5'10''.
Twintelle looks to be very tall because she's all legs and wears heels, but she's only 5'10''. Misango would be taller than her even if she were to wear 3 inch high heels.

EDIT: Also, Kid Cobra is 6 feet tall. You'd never guess because he's always hunched over.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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that's because misango is peak male performance. you really think sakurai would let that scrawny spring manlet in over an absolute chad like misango? all eight members of the misango mob will thrive when all is said and done.
Nah that's Max Brass. He's the current champion, he's built like a body builder (at age 52 no less), and he's 6'4''.
 

Professor Pumpkaboo

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Nah that's Max Brass. He's the current champion, he's built like a body builder (at age 52 no less), and he's 6'4''.
Really, none of the ARMS characters' heights are what you'd expect. The most similarly proportioned ones look to be the same height, but...

Spring Man is 5'11''.
Ribbon Girl is significantly shorter at 5'6''
Min Min is an inch shorter than that.
With how culturally inspired these characters are, you'd think Ninjara would be short since ninja favor being short, but he's 5'10''.
Twintelle looks to be very tall because she's all legs and wears heels, but she's only 5'10''. Misango would be taller than her even if she were to wear 3 inch high heels.

EDIT: Also, Kid Cobra is 6 feet tall. You'd never guess because he's always hunched over.
1386313423538.gif
These people be pulling tricks on us
 

Digital Hazard

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I think the main reason the old Geno costume hasn’t shown up yet is because they’re reworking it. Geno’s proportions are very similar to Sans and Cuphead and they could make a costume look exactly like the character.
The problem with that is that the 2nd Fighters Pass wasn't a thing until much later.

AKA Byleth was gonna be the last character in all of Ultimate, which meant the costumes brought with them were gonna be the last batch. Now I'm not saying that the costume won't return in a later DLC, but that had to be decided after the Cuphead was planned as the last costume.
 

Cosmic77

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There's no clear reason as to why Geno hasn't gotten in yet. Two much more pricey SE characters have gotten in, so money isn't the issue. Sakurai himself has commented on Geno's popularity, so neither a lack of support or an obliviousness to his demand is keeping him back.

If I had to take a guess, it's because Nintendo/Sakurai feels like he's a little too small and obscure to be prioritized over other characters, but it's hard to say. Don't know if he'll be added in the second pass, but to be brutally honest, I don't think the first pass did him any favors. Not only did we get a SE character as DLC, but Nintendo failed to bring back both the Geno costume and the Chocobo hat. Since Byleth was the last character at one point, that means they were fine with leaving out the Geno costume entirely.
 

EricTheGamerman

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There's no clear reason as to why Geno hasn't gotten in yet. Two much more pricey SE characters have gotten in, so money isn't the issue. Sakurai himself has commented on Geno's popularity, so neither a lack of support or an obliviousness to his demand is keeping him back.

If I had to take a guess, it's because Nintendo/Sakurai feels like he's a little too small and obscure to be prioritized over other characters, but it's hard to say. Don't know if he'll be added in the second pass, but to be brutally honest, I don't think the first pass did him any favors. Not only did we get a SE character as DLC, but Nintendo failed to bring back both the Geno costume and the Chocobo hat. Since Byleth was the last character at one point, that means they were fine with leaving out the Geno costume entirely.
I still don't think it makes sense for us to go around saying "Byleth was the last character at one point." There was always likely intended to be an evaluation at some point post launch of Ultimate as to where they wanted to go with the game DLC wise. They were committed to at least one full Fighter's Pass of characters and the decisions were going to be made at a later date for how they wanted to proceed. Byleth was the last character planned pre launch of Ultimate, but I really don't think Byleth was ever intended to be the end all be all character of Ultimate unless it or the Fighter's Pass just like ridiculously bombed.
 

Digital Hazard

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imo people are trying to think too deep into something that doesn't seems too complicated when it comes to why Geno isn't in.

He just doesn't brings much benefit to neither Nintendo or Square-Enix. From his last scene in SMRPG, it's clear he was intended to be just a one-off in a collaboration. He's somewhat popular in the Smash community, but it's obvious why Cloud and Hero were chosen over him, and the fact there's always playable mooks in Mario spinoffs means that, so far Nintendo is concerned, Goombas matter more than him.

He simply is far from being a priority.
 
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Lionfranky

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I think I got a decent game. I hope it's good.

Make a fighters pass using the top six "gun wielding" characters you'd like to see in Super Smash Bros Ultimate so anyone who fights using guns or any kind of weapon that shoots bullets or lasers beams (Like Samus, Joker, Bayonetta or Inklings) is fair game. I'll give you all an example.

1. Cormano (Sunset Riders)
2. John Raimi (Geist)
3. Doom Guy (DOOM)
4. Gunstar Red/Blue (Gunstar Heroes)
5. The Dude (Postal 2)
6. SGT. CORTEZ! (TimeSplitters)

YEAH! IT'S TIME TO SPLIT!
View attachment 273039
1. Master Chief
2. Lara Croft
3. Dante
4. Frank West (He uses guns with unique gimmick)
5. Jill
6. Grave (Gungrave)
 

Hinata

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If you'll allow me to speak candidly, I believe Geno isn't as popular of a choice as people make him out to be, even right now. As others have mentioned, in the Smash 4 days Geno had a paltry fanbase and a very weak support thread. Now, that doesn't exactly signify Geno's popularity in the greater Smash community, but it's a decent indication of how people felt about him back then.

Fast forward to now, and from the few cursory glances I've taken at this cycle's Geno thread, it seems to just be the same handful of people posting about how they believe Geno is likelier than ever, with a certain "leaker" trying his best to keep their spirits up even without any solid proof on the matter. If anyone besides the handful of people who frequent the thread posts in there, it's usually one of a few things.

1. Address a point made in the thread real quick before leaving,
2. Try and beat down hype by telling everyone Geno isn't as likely as they're making him out to be.
3. Voice a quick word of support, then leave and rarely return.

My point is, I believe Geno STILL isn't a very popular choice, it's just that his fanbase has gotten a lot more vocal this time around.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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The problem with that is that the 2nd Fighters Pass wasn't a thing until much later.

AKA Byleth was gonna be the last character in all of Ultimate, which meant the costumes brought with them were gonna be the last batch. Now I'm not saying that the costume won't return in a later DLC, but that had to be decided after the Cuphead was planned as the last costume.
The problem is that they clearly decided on a Pass 2 well before Pass 1 was finished.

That means Geno's costume could've been decided to be later if it was coming back as well. There's no way to know at this point. Now, if we get Geno deluxe, then it's a decent guess by the time of Hero's recording being made(so around June or so) that they decided on it. Since unless they never were going to ask for the costume back, it was most likely intended at one point to be with Hero. Before the presentation was recorded at any point they could've decided on another pass. Probably way earlier than June too. They had everything ready by November 2019, after all. And we're led to believe at least by March 2018(through November 2018) they had the 1st pass completely licensed. That's a lot of time.
 
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Megadoomer

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Considering that E3 2018 gave us Ridley, and E3 2019 gave us Banjo and Kazooie, here's hoping that E3 2020 the June Smash presentation gives us another long-awaited fan favourite. (I'm hoping for Geno, since he's one of the few characters that's had pretty consistent demand for as long as those two and K. Rool, even if they've all had their high and low periods - plus, having him as the seventh Fighters Pass character and the 77th unique character would be pretty fitting)
 

EricTheGamerman

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Considering that E3 2018 gave us Ridley, and E3 2019 gave us Banjo and Kazooie, here's hoping that E3 2020 the June Smash presentation gives us another long-awaited fan favourite. (I'm hoping for Geno, since he's one of the few characters that's had pretty consistent demand for as long as those two and K. Rool, even if they've all had their high and low periods - plus, having him as the seventh Fighters Pass character and the 77th unique character would be pretty fitting)
I don't think there's much reason to apply the standards of prior E3's to the current status quo regarding Smash considering how much things have been shuffled around because of the current world order and also just because Smash itself seems to have slowed down substantially from even just last year in terms of what is coming and when. I'd love another character reveal, but I'm not really counting on it with everything going on.
 

Droodle

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Considering that E3 2018 gave us Ridley, and E3 2019 gave us Banjo and Kazooie, here's hoping that E3 2020 the June Smash presentation gives us another long-awaited fan favourite. (I'm hoping for Geno, since he's one of the few characters that's had pretty consistent demand for as long as those two and K. Rool, even if they've all had their high and low periods - plus, having him as the seventh Fighters Pass character and the 77th unique character would be pretty fitting)
Yeah, I think Geno would be pretty fun and it would make a lot of sense for him to be a fan-pick E3-esque reveal (usually they save E3 for big 3rd parties / or fan-favorites). But I just don't see him as an obvious pick like so many people in the Geno thread do, other then fan-theories and potentially clinging to Cacomallow there really isn't much evidence that supports Geno THAT much (at least as a fighter). And to me there are plenty of characters that could be considered "big enough" for a E3 style reveal.

But to be fair, I don't see any character as an obvious pick currently (other then the ARMS rep).

I don't think there's much reason to apply the standards of prior E3's to the current status quo regarding Smash considering how much things have been shuffled around because of the current world order and also just because Smash itself seems to have slowed down substantially from even just last year in terms of what is coming and when. I'd love another character reveal, but I'm not really counting on it with everything going on.
That too, its totally possible that we end up getting the ARMS character around E3 time and we don't see character 7 until July.
 
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Megadoomer

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I don't think there's much reason to apply the standards of prior E3's to the current status quo regarding Smash considering how much things have been shuffled around because of the current world order and also just because Smash itself seems to have slowed down substantially from even just last year in terms of what is coming and when. I'd love another character reveal, but I'm not really counting on it with everything going on.
I just figure that, given how early we found out about an ARMS character being in Smash, there might be another reveal afterwards, even if it's a trailer with no gameplay like Joker or Terry's initial reveals.

The current situation with ARMS seems like a similar situation with Lucas in Smash 4 or Banjo in Ultimate, where we knew about them well in advance, and as we got to the presentation that went into more detail about what would be in their update, there were other reveals alongside that. (Roy/Ryu and Terry, respectively) They revealed that we'd be getting an ARMS character roughly three months before the character would actually get a full reveal or be released, which seems unusual.

Plus, it seems weird to have the only Smash reveal at what would have been E3 be a character that we've known about (sort of) for months, whose reveal is inevitably going to divide the fanbase as people have been hoping for Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, Min Min, Twintelle, Max Brass, Dr. Coyle, etc. as a result of the announcement that it's an ARMS character, and what it could mean for assist trophies, spirits, and characters who aren't the protagonist or mascot.
 
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Will

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If Geno does get in the game, I'm expecting something like the end of the Banjo trailer where he gets a still image and all of the characters are celebrating

kindpng_166624.png


Speaking of, what the hell are half of these reactions?

Meta Knight's looks uncomfortable, Mega Man has that blank stare, and Duck Hunt is just twerking. aNd ThAt'S gOoD eNoUgH tO SaY iN tWo ThReAdS!
 
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Mamboo07

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If Geno does get in the game, I'm expecting something like the end of the Banjo trailer where he gets a still image and all of the characters are celebrating

View attachment 273129

Speaking of, what the hell are half of these reactions?

Meta Knight's looks uncomfortable, Mega Man has that blank stare, and Duck Hunt is just twerking. aNd ThAt'S gOoD eNoUgH tO SaY iN tWo ThReAdS!
Duck Hunt is afraid of Banjo-Kazooie smacking them away.
 

Digital Hazard

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If Geno does get in the game, I'm expecting something like the end of the Banjo trailer where he gets a still image and all of the characters are celebrating

View attachment 273129

Speaking of, what the hell are half of these reactions?

Meta Knight's looks uncomfortable, Mega Man has that blank stare, and Duck Hunt is just twerking. aNd ThAt'S gOoD eNoUgH tO SaY iN tWo ThReAdS!
Duck Hunt just got stomped by them before they buried K. Rool.

They're scared.
 

Evil Trapezium

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If Geno does get in the game, I'm expecting something like the end of the Banjo trailer where he gets a still image and all of the characters are celebrating

View attachment 273129

Speaking of, what the hell are half of these reactions?

Meta Knight's looks uncomfortable, Mega Man has that blank stare, and Duck Hunt is just twerking. aNd ThAt'S gOoD eNoUgH tO SaY iN tWo ThReAdS!
Well you could also say that Metaknight is jumping for joy and Megaman does have a happy face. I'd say only thing odd about the image is that some characters don't look directly at Banjo & Kazooie.

Anyway here is a clearer image.

Banjo Kazooie.png
 

Will

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Well you could also say that Metaknight is jumping for joy and Megaman does have a happy face. I'd say only thing odd about the image is that some characters don't look directly at Banjo & Kazooie.

Anyway here is a clearer image.

View attachment 273130
why is falcon reaching for banjo's ass? why is fox scratching DK's back?

this image only brings more questions than answers.
 

SKX31

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That too, its totally possible that we end up getting the ARMS character around E3 time and we don't see character 7 until July.
July would coincide with EVO Online, and there's a (slight) possibility that they could show off during the tournament.

It's also possible that a July reveal is not connected to EVO, though.

(And I don't find China's E3 - ChinaJoy - to be likely at all, partly because I'm guessing Tencent and Nintendo will reveal whatever Pokemon game they have planned there. Like a Pokemon MOBA or whatever. EDIT: Referring to this.)

why is falcon reaching for banjo's ass? why is fox scratching DK's back?

this image only brings more questions than answers.
*HYES intensifies*

And Bowser's going for the biggest group hug. He truly is a great dad.
 
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KingofPhantoms

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Didn't Geno have a significant following as far back as Brawl? Smash 4's fanbase of him also seemed pretty expansive and vocal from what I can recall. He's always been something of a darkhorse candidate.

Problem is, that's just it. He's a darkhorse candidate. Nothing more. He made one major appearance in a game from the late 90s, and has had a handful of cameos after that. He's quite beloved for that one appearance, and his fanbase is dedicated, but he's ultimately still a one-off character from a single joint project video game between Nintendo and Square that predates the first Smash game by three years who has made no major appearance in anything since then.

I'm not saying he's not well-known or popular, and I hate the relevancy argument, don't get me wrong, but even compared to K. Rool, who had a decade-long absence, this character just hasn't been in the spotlight for a very, very long time. And I can see why that would hold him back. Is it illogical to think that the sudden addition of a character like that would have a lot of Smash fans scratching their heads and going "Literally who?". A lot of modern fans still don't know who he is, and there's still a fair number of people who were around in earlier generations who just don't care about him as much as other people do. Then here's the question of how profitable both companies would think he could be. Even if he turns out to be succuessful and profitable, I can see why the companies would think otherwise and have some reservations about going through with it. That itself has probably held Sakurai back once already. IIRC, he's actually expressed interest in adding him. He's just in a very oddball position.

There isn't a single other one-shot character with such a cult following out in his position with Super Smash Bros. The way I see it, Geno being an Ensemble Darkhorse is both his greatest strength and his greatest weakness.
 

Evil Trapezium

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why is falcon reaching for banjo's ass? why is fox scratching DK's back?

this image only brings more questions than answers.
I don't know. Seems like pretty normal behaviour for the characters according to the fanbase.
 

TheCJBrine

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From what I’ve seen, SMRPG and Geno + its other characters have good popularity even if it’s not as big as others, and Geno had fans before Smash 4 + Sakurai acknowledged he gets a lot of requests, so really while he’s clearly not as big as others, I don’t think he’s as small as some people make him out to be either. I think what happened in Smash 4, based on what I’ve read, is that Geno fans lost high hopes/expectations, causing some people to feel it not worthwhile to speak up or campaign or whatever until the mii costume and Sakurai said stuff about it. Similar to how some leaks help people realize one of their favorite characters could be in this cool crossover they like.

Some YouTube videos and stuff about the game and Geno get a lot more likes than the number of posts in the Geno thread, like that Project M Geno mod, the Rawest Forest video, Terminal Montage’s Geno videos; some twitter posts getting a decent number too even if they’re not as big.

Regarding this site, I’m not sure the number of posts in a thread is a good indicator, though. Rather, the likes it gets and the supporter list since it seems most people do this. The Geno thread has 367 likes, I imagine other “big-name” threads have similar on this site - though, looking at a few, they appear to have less likes :S Maybe this site alone isn’t the best indicator in general...I didn’t bother counting the users in the long supporter lists, since at least some thread owners require you like the post before they add you to the list anyway (and yeah they’re long please don’t make me count...even though some lists are numbered and don’t match the likes or even just how long the lists seem to be don’t match the likes...), but y’know...

Of course, he has only had a big role in one old Mario game, so I understand why Nintendo may not choose him even over other Mario characters, but I think he still has some good reasons to be chosen, so I think he’s possible at least.
 
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Cosmic77

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If there was ever a time to add Geno, now would be the time. Ultimate benefited from having most of the newer, more relevant characters being added in Smash 4, so that freed up a lot of spots for fan favorites and third-parties.

If he doesn't get in this pass, I think it'll be a lot harder for him to get in the next Smash. The longer the gap is between Ultimate and the next Smash, the more new characters/potential newcomers will appear in other titles. There will also be cut characters people will want back, so that's sure to eat away at a few of the DLC slots.
 
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