Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[GoodGrief741]

Congrats, you missed the point and should direct your ire at people who actually made the comparison in the first place.

I understand that you didn't make the comparison, I just wanted to use your post as a jumping off point to rerail the discussion towards Zelda and not veer of into FE good vs. FE bad.

 

[SKX31]

I think I got a decent game. I hope it's good.

Make a fighters pass using the top six "gun wielding" characters you'd like to see in Super Smash Bros Ultimate so anyone who fights using guns or any kind of weapon that shoots bullets or lasers beams (Like Samus, Joker, Bayonetta or Inklings) is fair game. I'll give you all an example.

1. Master Chief
2. KOS-MOS
3. Tracer
4. Dante
5. Lara Croft
6. Sgt. Cortez (Right on!)

Honorable mention: Gunvolt, Captain Price (CoD MW - if they can find a way to avoid any real life weaponry.), Doomguy, Ratchet & Clank

 

[EricTheGamerman]

IMO, the problem is that Zelda isn't underrepped; it's just not diverse.

Yeah, Zelda is about the items; but there's no reason all 3 Link's can't be completely unique from each other in terms of arsenal. Adult Link is fine, Young Link should have gotten a moveset based on Majora's Mask, Toon Link could totally have Deku leaf and controlling the wind with Wind Waker. They all have enough differences to have completely unique items, but instead they stick with bombs/arrows/boomerangs.

It could stand to gain 1 more character, but the focus should be giving all the link's their own identity. They play differently, but that's mostly due to speed rather then there actual moveset. Remote bombs were super refreshing.

Young Link coming back from the dead kind of made it more important for him to play like he did originally. For a cut Veteran since Melee, you can't alter too much and have people be happy with him coming back. Plus if you go too far, you might as well just make a whole new character because like a properly developed Young Link around Majora's Mask would basically be a Pokemon Trainer-esque development.

Who even knows at this point?

The Geno thread insists that Square fully owns the character, but they can't use him outside of Mario stuff. But that's the Geno thread. It's equally as likely that Square could use Geno in their own stuff, but they choose not to.

Let's be honest, Geno isn't this huge paragon of gaming like a lot of people believe. Square really has no reason to put out Geno content on their own, other then appeasing a loud group of fans; and outside of Smash Geno has barely any demand to be in anything.

Yeah, Square Enix has no interest in the properties of Mario RPG because it doesn't really benefit them to put any of that content anywhere else and never would anyway unless they could have Mario with it.

It's fine if you don't feel like the lack of Zelda newcomers is a pressing issue, but please don't be that person who says, "Look at all the stages and items it has. It's fine as is and it doesn't really need any more characters."

Characters have always been what people cared the most about, and it's not fair to act like everyone should feel like the current cast is "good enough".

No, but people need to recognize the value of how they do other things outside of characters too. Stages, items, assist trophies, all of it matters and the way the Smash fan base regularly decides that none of it does is easily one of the most infuriating things about the fan base as a whole. It's fine to say "playable characters" are the thing you care about, but I've seen so many people talk about how much Sakurai "hates Kirby" or "hates Zelda" just because their content is less focused on fighters than... well really just Fire Emblem, Pokemon, and Mario... And FE has plenty of representation issues as well as has been discussed even if some people can't get past the mental block of "8 fighters" long enough to actually evaluate that reality. Like you're entitled to believe your own metric of good enough of course, but people could stand to be substantially more receptive to the tons of work that the series receive outside of fighters.

No franchise in Smash is ever going to be "perfectly represented" or even "ideally represented." You just can't do that in such a wide reaching cross over that emphasizes a wide variety of content from a wide variety of franchises. Every piece of content matters when so much of it is developed with love and care to show off all kinds of elements of the series and characters themselves and with the limited resources available because every choice in Smash is always another opportunity cost elsewhere.

 

[Perkilator]

I think I got a decent game. I hope it's good.

Make a fighters pass using the top six "gun wielding" characters you'd like to see in Super Smash Bros Ultimate so anyone who fights using guns or any kind of weapon that shoots bullets or lasers beams (Like Samus, Joker, Bayonetta or Inklings) is fair game. I'll give you all an example.

1. Cormano (Sunset Riders)
2. John Raimi (Geist)
3. Doom Guy (DOOM)
4. Gunstar Red/Blue (Gunstar Heroes)
5. The Dude (Postal 2)
6. SGT. CORTEZ! (TimeSplitters)

YEAH! IT'S TIME TO SPLIT!
View attachment 273039

1. Jill Valentine (Resident Evil)
2. Reiji & Xiamou (Project X Zone)
3. Zero (Mega Man Zero)
4. Shadow* (Sonic the Hedgehog)
5. Dante (Devil May Cry)

That's all I got.

*In like, an aerial or something.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I understand that you didn't make the comparison, I just wanted to use your post as a jumping off point to rerail the discussion towards Zelda and not veer of into FE good vs. FE bad.

I can help clear up where the confusion is, if you need me to.

But it wasn't FE good VS FE bad either way. ...Oddly enough that never came up. The most that came up was Zelda bad VS Zelda good.

 

[Schnee117]

Sakurai "hates Kirby"

This one is interesting because people have actually pointed towards a lack of stages originating from beyond the Sakurai era here, so much so that Sakurai has mentioned it himself in the past

 

[Guynamednelson]

and believe that game would be ruined if one were to be promoted.

If you were that concerned about the game being "ruined", shouldn't you hate that it has DLC in the first place? It means the intro can't properly showcase the full roster, and there are plenty of classic modes and spirit battles in which the DLC fighters are not included regardless of how well they'd fit.

 

[Perkilator]

This one is interesting because people have actually pointed towards a lack of stages originating from beyond the Sakurai era here, so much so that Sakurai has mentioned it himself in the past

Apparently when it came to a Kirby's Epic Yarn stage, he scrapped it in favor of Great Cave Offensive to avoid glaring similarities with Yoshi's Wooly World (which got a stage in advance).

 

[Schnee117]

Apparently when it came to a Kirby's Epic Yarn stage, he scrapped it in favor of Great Cave Offensive to avoid glaring similarities with Yoshi's Wooly World (which got a stage in advance).

That's in the article I linked.

 

[Cosmic77]

No, but people need to recognize the value of how they do other things outside of characters too. Stages, items, assist trophies, all of it matters and the way the Smash fan base regularly decides that none of it does is easily one of the most infuriating things about the fan base as a whole. It's fine to say "playable characters" are the thing you care about, but I've seen so many people talk about how much Sakurai "hates Kirby" or "hates Zelda" just because their content is less focused on fighters than... well really just Fire Emblem, Pokemon, and Mario... And FE has plenty of representation issues as well as has been discussed even if some people can't get past the mental block of "8 fighters" long enough to actually evaluate that reality. Like you're entitled to believe your own metric of good enough of course, but people could stand to be substantially more receptive to the tons of work that the series receive outside of fighters.

No franchise in Smash is ever going to be "perfectly represented" or even "ideally represented." You just can't do that in such a wide reaching cross over that emphasizes a wide variety of content from a wide variety of franchises. Every piece of content matters when so much of it is developed with love and care to show off all kinds of elements of the series and characters themselves and with the limited resources available because every choice in Smash is always another opportunity cost elsewhere.

Sure, but people also need to stop being dismissive toward those who want more Zelda characters just because they personally believe the stages and Spirits should be enough for fans. It's also unfair for people to automatically lump anyone who wants more Zelda characters with those who complain about the amount of FE content just for the sake of making an argument. Not everyone falls in both categories.

I'm grateful that Zelda has a lot of content outside the roster, but I believe we're long overdue for another character. We haven't gotten a truly unique character since Melee, and that feels odd for such a large and successful franchise with so many unique options. I don't consider that unappreciative or selfish, and I'm tired of people presenting it as such.

 

[Digital Hazard]

If we're comparing one of the biggest series of all time to Fire Emblem then that just proves there's a problem, these two shouldn't be in the same league.

The thing is that Nintendo doesn't cares.

Yes, FE isn't a titan compared to Mario, Zelda, Animal Crossing and Pokémon, and even the two Splatoon games beated the series in sales.

But it has also been a series that in the last decade, has brought them much more income than many of their more historically renowned series; Three Houses by itself sold more than Kirby Star Allies, which is the second best selling Kirby game, and it also has sold more than the port of Tropical Freeze or Yoshi's Crafted World. The lowest selling game in recent years has been Shadows of Valentia, which even then outsold Samus Returns.

And then there's the gacha juggernaut called Fire Emblem Heroes, which is at least amongst the Top 20 most grossing mobile games of the years it's been running, with sometimes placing close to money-making juggernauts such as Clash of Titans, Pokémon GO, Fate/Grand Order, Candy Crush and Mosnter Strike.

tl;dr, to Nintendo it has become a pillar to the company and of course they're going to give it priority over others.

 

[GoodGrief741]

The thing is that Nintendo doesn't cares.

Yes, FE isn't a titan compared to Mario, Zelda, Animal Crossing and Pokémon, and even the two Splatoon games beated the series in sales.

But it has also been a series that in the last decade, has brought them much more income than many of their more historically renowned series; Three Houses by itself sold more than Kirby Star Allies, which is the second best selling Kirby game, and it also has sold more than the port of Tropical Freeze or Yoshi's Crafted World. The lowest selling game in recent years has been Shadows of Valentia, which even then outsold Samus Returns.

And then there's the gacha juggernaut called Fire Emblem Heroes, which is at least amongst the Top 20 most grossing mobile games of the years it's been on, which sometimes placing close to money-making juggernauts such as Clash of Titans, Pokémon GO, Fate/Grand Order, Candy Crush and Mosnter Strike.

tl;dr, to Nintendo it has become a pillar to the company and of course they're going to give it priority over others.

Again, I don't give two ****s about Fire Emblem's content, that isn't what we should be comparing Zelda to.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

And then there's the gacha juggernaut called Fire Emblem Heroes, which is at least amongst the Top 20 most grossing mobile games of the years it's been running, whith sometimes placing close to money-making juggernauts such as Clash of Titans, Pokémon GO, Fate/Grand Order, Candy Crush and Mosnter Strike.

Isn't FEH also Nintendo's most successful mobile game?

 

[Evil Trapezium]

1. Sora (technicality because he uses his Keyblade as a counduit for magic spells, iirc )

I don't know about Sora. He mostly casts magic with his Keyblade instead of using it to shoot.

1. Jill Valentine (Resident Evil)
2. Reiji & Xiamou (Project X Zone)
3. Zero (Mega Man Zero)
4. Shadow* (Sonic the Hedgehog)
5. Dante (Devil May Cry)

That's all I got.

*In like, an aerial or something.

I don't know about Shadow either. I don't think throwing a Chaos spear counts as shooting.

... But if you're having trouble picking out a sixth character... Allow me to introduce you to one TimeSplitting marine.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Again, I don't give two ****s about Fire Emblem's content, that isn't what we should be comparing Zelda to.

And Smash isn't a ****-measuring contest about how big franchises are.

If Nintendo wants to shove 8 Fire Emblems before giving us a Zelda rep that isn't a Triforce user, then that's exactly what they'll do.

No two series should be compared because there's no point in comparing them because how much representation they get is not representative of anything.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I think I got a decent game. I hope it's good.

Make a fighters pass using the top six "gun wielding" characters you'd like to see in Super Smash Bros Ultimate so anyone who fights using guns or any kind of weapon that shoots bullets or lasers beams (Like Samus, Joker, Bayonetta or Inklings) is fair game. I'll give you all an example.

1. Cormano (Sunset Riders)
2. John Raimi (Geist)
3. Doom Guy (DOOM)
4. Gunstar Red/Blue (Gunstar Heroes)
5. The Dude (Postal 2)
6. SGT. CORTEZ! (TimeSplitters)

YEAH! IT'S TIME TO SPLIT!
View attachment 273039

I could fill the list with Splatoon characters but to play fair

1. Octoling
2. Protoman
3. Heavy Weapons Guy
4. Doomguy
5. Gordon Freeman
6. Master Chief

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Isn't FEH also Nintendo's most successful mobile game?

That's because of whales. It isn't an indicator of the series's popularity in the slightest.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

I don't know about Shadow either. I don't think throwing a Chaos spear counts as shooting.

I can't believe y'all forget about GOTY 2005 so easily

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

That's because of whales. It isn't an indicator of the series's popularity in the slightest.

It is when Nintendo has multiple gacha games

 

[Lamperouge]

I don't know about Shadow either. I don't think throwing a Chaos spear counts as shooting.

Shadow totally counts as a "gun wielding" character, though.

Edit: God dammit Ramen

 

[Schnee117]

I can't believe y'all forget about GOTY 2005 so easily
View attachment 273044

y'all ever just pump a machine gun

 

[Cosmic77]

That's because of whales. It isn't an indicator of the series's popularity in the slightest.

Here's what a lot of people don't understand about FEH.

Despite being the most profitable mobile game for Nintendo, only 4% of all of Nintendo's mobile game downloads are for FEH.

FEH has been successful because it has a small but loyal fanbase that's apparently willing to shell out hundreds of dollars each year for this game.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

1. Jill Valentine (Resident Evil)
2. Reiji & Xiamou (Project X Zone)
3. Zero (Mega Man Zero)
4. Shadow* (Sonic the Hedgehog)
5. Dante (Devil May Cry)

That's all I got.

*In like, an aerial or something.

I'm realizing that even as an echo, Shadow would feel like a completely new character if he replaced spin-dash with a a gun.

 

[ZelDan]

I feel like there is/was two different arguments or discussions going on at once and it was slipping people up. Those 2 discussions being "Zelda's content vs. FE's content" and "Zelda should have more stuff regardless of how it compares to other franchises"

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

It is when Nintendo has multiple gacha games

Ok but Dr. Mario World is gonna take the world by storm. There's just no competing with characters like Dr. Baby Peach, Dr. Goomba Tower and Dr. Dolphin.

 

[GoodGrief741]

If Nintendo wants to shove 8 Fire Emblems before giving us a Zelda rep that isn't a Triforce user, then that's exactly what they'll do.

Well then pack it up folks it's over. Smash exists as it is, no point in discussing it or criticising it when it is what it is.

 

[Digital Hazard]

That's because of whales. It isn't an indicator of the series's popularity in the slightest.

Here's what a lot of people don't understand about FEH.

Despite being the most profitable mobile game for Nintendo, only 4% of all of Nintendo's mobile game downloads are for FEH.

FEH has been successful because it has a small but loyal fanbase that's apparently willing to shell out hundreds of dollars each year for this game.

It is still indicator of profits, though.

Fate/Grand Order pales in downloads to something like Sonic Dash but nobody is gonna deny it's incredibly succesful.

That equals priority.

 

[Deleted member]

I fully understand that playable characters aren't the only content that represents a franchise. I'm like the only person left here that believes spirits and assist trophies deconfirm and believe that game would be ruined if one were to be promoted. Still, it would've been nice to at least have one Zelda newcomer since the series is full of interesting and lovable characters that would have been a celebrated addition.

........I’m genuinely curious, how exactly would upgrading an Spirit or Assist to playable status "ruin" the game in any way??

 

[Perkilator]

I don't know about Shadow either. I don't think throwing a Chaos spear counts as shooting.

I included an asterisk to further expand upon Shadow in my original post.

 

[Digital Hazard]

........I’m genuinely curious, how exactly would upgrading an Spirit or Assist to playable status "ruin" the game in any way??

It doesn't objectively do anything wrong.

The worst it would happen would be internet forums of 'x character' stans going around how their character will be upgraded and simultaneously create a hatedom.

 

[SNEKeater]

It's funny how that meme got outdated due to Zelda getting even more Mii costumes and Spirits tbh, even if I get the complaint, lots of FE fans said they'd rather have had more non playable representation of Corrin back in the day and FE was lacking in that department until Ultimate. For the most part anyway, wild how Fates only gets to have 1 song from it'a OST

And that still hurts when Fates has a really great soundtrack. But nah, better have Lost In Thoughts All Alone x4.

I mean, we don't have any series with a perfect representation. It's impossible. I personally think that Metroid and DK are relatively disappointing when it comes to music selection or stages, but other people probably will think that both are completely fine as they are now.
The Zelda situation is a hard one tho, I personally think that the characters we have are fine, but some of them could be a lot more interesting when it comes to moveset, mostly Toon Link, Young Link and Ganondorf. As some have suggested they could draw more things from the Zelda games (Young Link being more based on Majora's Mask Link, etc), which I think it's a very cool idea.

Everyone is here! didn't help as well, if they didn't brought everyone back I guess there could be some room for improvement and changes for some characters.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Everyone is here! didn't help as well, if they didn't brought everyone back I guess there could be some room for improvement and changes for some characters.

The question is though: Would such a thing have happened? Precedence says no but since "Everyone is Here!" is a thing, I guess we'll never truly know.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

The question is though: Would such a thing have happened? Precedence says no but since "Everyone is Here!" is a thing, I guess we'll never truly know.

From what Sakurai said way back when, we probably would have had a roster of around 30 characters presumably made from the ground up or at least heavily modified. That means the Zelda roster (along with others) would probably get cut down. We might have only had one Link in that game.

 

[Cosmic77]

Even if Sakurai started from scratch like he basically did with Smash 4, I don't think the roster would be as small as people think. Might've taken longer to make, but I doubt Sakurai would've considered dropping twenty or thirty characters.

Ultimate probably would've lost four to six characters on top of the ones already missing, but I think the base roster would still be a number higher than Smash 4 after Bayonetta.

It is still indicator of profits, though.

Fate/Grand Order pales in downloads to something like Sonic Dash but nobody is gonna deny it's incredibly succesful.

That equals priority.

The point is that profits =/= popularity.

If only 4% of downloads for Nintendo's mobile games account for FEH, then that means Nintendo is able to make a lot of money off of a small playerbase. That's why I don't agree with people who use FEH's profits as a gauge for how popular the franchise is. Console games are a better indicator of popularity. Excluding potential DLC or lootcrates, it's a one-time purchase. The amount of cash they take in is more dependent on the number of consumers than mobile games. There's usually a max limit on how much money you can spend on one of Nintendo's console games.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

I can't believe y'all forget about GOTY 2005 so easily
View attachment 273044

Shadow totally counts as a "gun wielding" character, though.

Edit: God dammit Ramen

What Shadow game? It'd be a pretty silly concept to make a anthropormorphic Hedgehog hold an M16 rifle in order to appeal to a mature audience while censoring out an already tame cutscene of a girl getting shot and making damn the only curse word the Sonic characters can utter. Like Sega wouldn't be that dumb.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Everyone's talking about how Zelda is supposedly underrepresented in the character department, but can we get an a F in the chat for Yoshi and F-Zero?

They've been here since the very beginning, and they've both been stuck with their one single character for 20+ years now.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Even if Sakurai started from scratch like he basically did with Smash 4, I don't think the roster would be as small as people think. Might've taken longer to make, but I doubt Sakurai would've considered dropping twenty or thirty characters.

Ultimate probably would've lost four to six characters on top of the ones already missing, but I think the base roster would still be a number higher than Smash 4 after Bayonetta.

I'm pretty sure the man himself gave the number 30. It was probably a quick estimate, but people aren't making it up out of nowhere.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Disregard this

 

[GoodGrief741]

Disregard this

No

 

[Digital Hazard]

The point is that profits =/= popularity.

If only 4% of downloads for Nintendo's mobile games account for FEH, then that means Nintendo is able to make a lot of money off of a small playerbase. That's why I don't agree with people who use FEH's profits as a gauge for how popular the franchise is. Console games are a better indicator of popularity. Excluding potential DLC or lootcrates, it's a one-time purchase. The amount of cash they take in is more dependent on the number of consumers than mobile games. There's usually a max limit on how much money you can spend on one of Nintendo's console games.

Profits = What's more benefitial to invest on = Priority

My initial point wasn't even that FE is as popular as Zelda, Animal Crossing, Splatoon, Mario or Pokémon, I won't pretend that, it was that amongst other Nintendo franchises, it still has done them a lot more in the last decade than Metroid, DK, Kirby and other series, so of course, the company will give it more attention compared to other series.

Would I call it a B-tier series? Yes. But it is the B-tier series they get the most benefit from at this point in time.

Everyone's talking about how Zelda is supposedly underrepresented in the character department, but can we get an a F in the chat for Yoshi and F-Zero?

They've been here since the very beginning, and they've each been stuck with their one single character for 20+ years now.

I mean, Kamek would be amazing, but I dunno how a F-Zero character would work, Captain Falcon having his moveset made up from the ground up.

Keep in mind most of my experience with F-Zero is playing GX demo on a bonus disk included in some editions of Double Dash!!