Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[TechPowah]

Why are we having to choose whether Smash is a game about celebrating either Nintendo or video games in general

it's clear that despite starting as Nintendo only, it became a general gaming crossover over time

plus who even cares about the distinction? Nintendo itself is arguably THE name and face of the gaming industry as a whole
people used to blanket-statement call any console "a Nintendo", and some still do

Smash having more Nintendo characters in a Nintendo game than guests doesn't change the fact that said guests include Sonic-the-hecking-Hedgehog, Cloud-flipping-Strife, Simon-whooping-Belmont, BUNGIE-KALEIDOSCOPE , who are owned by a completely SEPARATE name and face at that

 

[Evil Trapezium]

But you're right, we could use a real Dragon-type. Named Garchomp.

That's not how you spell Salamence.

 

[SKX31]

So I gave Worms Armageddon a shot...

If there's anything that will not only never be in Smash, but never get referenced by Smash, but should absolutely be in, it's that series. The moveset basically writes itself (Concrete Donkey final smash, anyone?), and the freaking stage potential this series has is also top tier. Sure it wouldn't be competitively viable, but imagine a stage where you destroy more and more of it until, possibly, everybody's doomed to fall in the water and drown. Perhaps you could be encased until you clear enough of the stage to start being able to get KO's. It could even be randomly selected between a few layouts where you're not encased. Of course, while hazard less mode always picks the open course, and you can be KO'd from the get go, you can still destroy the stage. Perhaps for balancing reasons, the stage could even regrow, or at least have a bare minimum so that you can't fall in the water over and over again.

Even if it was in consideration it'd be thwarted by Spirits and music. But right now all I consider from the series is pretty much the perfect fit for Smash.

Oh, yes.

*Memories of Worms 2 and Armageddon flood back in.*

The Worm moveset would need to include legendary weapons such as the exploding Sheep, placeable Girders, and of course, the all mighty Prod.

The main character of the show is called Katarina Claes.

I fully approve of this theory. My general distaste of dumber harem anime hasn't stopped me from becoming a Bakarina Claes fan (or a fan of the show).

I want to see where this is going.

BUNGIE-KALEIDOSCOPE

Banjo-Kazooie confirmed for Destiny 2 you say?

 

[Iko MattOrr]

I don't like the art style argument just because...

Well, so few of these art styles fit well as it is. Pokemon would look absurd in Zelda. Mario characters wouldn't fit in Fire Emblem. Star Fox characters would be bizarre in Kirby. Pretty much only Metroid characters fit in Metroid.

But the thing is... That's the whole point of a crossover. It's a mixmatching of things that normally wouldn't work together.

So, the whole "third parties have art styles that don't work with Nintendo characters" is absolutely true but... so what? What does that matter?

Well I'm not sure why most people went crazy about that art style argument, when my comment was so generic about it ("less out of place").
By the way, I feel like most Nintendo characters use simple designs and color palettes... this does not necessarily mean cartoony, though they share this similarity. Even the most realistic-looking franchises such as Metroid or F-Zero, still have characters with simple color schemes and mascot-like designs.

Anyway, I repeat that people are making a bigger deal out of this than what I meant in my original post... I was merely talking about personal preferences/opinions and it's not like art style affects my opinion on a character that much by the way (I support a Dark Souls character and I would die for some Age of Empires representation, no matter how clashing they would be).

And on a side note, I think that people are underrating the flexibility of Kirby's art style. There's a Kirby game where you have to kill metroids for Samus, and Metroids look and feel like Kirby characters/enemies. Also, Captain Vul totally looks like something you would find in Star Fox. You guys are getting some bad examples to prove Kirby's "unfittingness" .

 

[M@R!3]

Jumping in on the conversation about a Splatoon 2 rep.

Short and sweet, it could happen. There are lots of unused weapons that aren't in Inkling's moveset.

Splatoon has been a massive hit for Nintendo, and seeing how they're currently in the process of bringing back players by reviving Splatfests, I wouldn't put it past them to use Smash as a means to promote Splatoon 2 like they did with ARMS.

I can see it. The splatfest revival is likely not connected to any sort of promotional attempt since it's a rerun of a previous theme with the updated scoring system. It's looking more like a "one and done" sort of thing at the moment, although the digital copies of Splatoon 2 being one of the prizes for that smash online open tournament do lend a bit more credence to the idea.

 

[TechPowah]

It’s just a hypothesis of what they could do with the Octoling if they were to decide to have it as DLC now

Even so, no shade on Octolings intended as someone who wouldn't mind them in the slightest had they been base game, but I would not be impressed if they'd make one of their highly anticipated season pass characters be what essentially is an Inkling moveset revamp

now granted, they have literally done this before with Lucas and Roy compared to Ness and Marth
but that still is a case of being veteran semiclone characters and being advertised as such, and they didn't need to create entire new movesets from scratch <from a conceptual standpoint anyway; even Roy mostly got about the same level of change that any other vet received between Brawl and Smash 4>
plus they didn't cost 6 dollars, but that's neither here nor there :y

 

[Speed Weed]

i mean
gaming crossover and nintendo crossover aren't mutually exclusive, and i think smash is very clearly a bit of both

to have a comparison here, it's like having a house party and inviting all your neighbors, and they can also invite their friends and have this snowball, but at the end of the day, it's still a party at your house, but on the other hand, everyone's having a good time so who cares

and on the bajillionth 1st vs 3rd party debate...they can coexist. we can have both. they all have a shot. on both sides. there's still tons and tons of cool characters left. on both sides. i don't think there's a need to be strawmanning people who prefer one or the other simply for their tastes not lining up with yours.

and that was your weedpost for the day

 

[osby]

Well I'm not sure why most people went crazy about that art style argument, when my comment was so generic about it ("less out of place").

Nobody went crazy, we're just pointing out that your argument doesn't hold well at all in a civilized manner.

By the way, I feel like most Nintendo characters use simple designs and color palettes... this does not necessarily mean cartoony, though they share this similarity. Even the most realistic-looking franchises such as Metroid or F-Zero, still have characters with simple color schemes and mascot-like designs.

That's not unique to Nintendo characters at all. Most successful video game characters use simple color palettes because that makes a design more easily recognizable. That's the case with even relatively realistic-looking characters like Ryu or Joker.

I'm not really sure what do you mean by "mascot-like", to be honest.

 

[TechPowah]

Oh before i forget
I'm probably super ultra omega "Slowpoke, Slowpoke slowww" on this but i just now noticed
the Smash website updated the season 2 section of the DLC page to show the full 6 cards representing fighter pack 6-11

 

[Iko MattOrr]

Nobody went crazy, we're just pointing out that your argument doesn't hold well at all in a civilized manner.

Starting with "Oh boy" is not a good idea then, if your goal is to make a civilized argument.
Also, "pointing out that your argument doesn't hold well", it's more like "my opinion is better than yours" it seems.

That's not unique to Nintendo characters at all. Most successful video game characters use simple color palettes because that makes a design more easily recognizable. That's the case with even relatively realistic-looking characters like Ryu or Joker.

I'm not really sure what do you mean by "mascot-like", to be honest.

In fact, I said it in the original post. I didn't mean cartoony, I meant this thing you also said specifically. This is why I think that visually, Master Chief fits better than Doom Guy (and I'm talking of visually only).

Mascot-like: makes a design more easily recognizable.
or at least something like this.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Well I'm not sure why most people went crazy about that art style argument, when my comment was so generic about it ("less out of place").
By the way, I feel like most Nintendo characters use simple designs and color palettes... this does not necessarily mean cartoony, though they share this similarity. Even the most realistic-looking franchises such as Metroid or F-Zero, still have characters with simple color schemes and mascot-like designs.

Anyway, I repeat that people are making a bigger deal out of this than what I meant in my original post... I was merely talking about personal preferences/opinions and it's not like art style affects my opinion on a character that much by the way (I support a Dark Souls character and I would die for some Age of Empires representation, no matter how clashing they would be).

And on a side note, I think that people are underrating the flexibility of Kirby's art style. There's a Kirby game where you have to kill metroids for Samus, and Metroids look and feel like Kirby characters/enemies. Also, Captain Vul totally looks like something you would find in Star Fox. You guys are getting some bad examples to prove Kirby's "unfittingness" .

I meant kind of in general, and not specifically towards you.

That said... I take the big L on Captain Vul, but I think the's the only Star Fox looking character in Kirby.

Samus and the Metroids don't count imo, as they're just a straight crossover.

 

[Koopaul]

Regardless of how much Nintendo focus there is, Smash is still one of the biggest video game crossover in terms of included franchises and companies. I don't think a lack of emphasis on one particular aspect would necessarily make it bigger.

So, unpopular opinion but yeah, Smash can both celebrate Nintendo's history and overall gaming and it's done a pretty good job at both imo. I think a lot of people are underestimating how much of a big deal having in the same game.

I don't think that's an unpopular opinion. It really is gamings biggest crossover. But I still don't consider it a true celebration of gaming until it does it in a balanced way. I think about Smash as a whole. I'm not just talking about fighters, I'm talking about stages, music, spirits, items, and more.

Think of a World History Museum. You go to it and see 90% of all the exibits are about US history. Even celebrating obscure events in US history, selling T-Shirts at the gift shop with American flags. Oh, but they do have some small exhibits based on some of the biggest events in human history from across the world. I mean, they covered all the important stuff... Over there... In that corner. So I guess it's worthy of that World History title.

 

[osby]

Also, "pointing out that your argument doesn't hold well", it's more like "my opinion is better than yours" it seems.

Not really. I looked at the supporting claims you've used to support your argument and criticized them. I didn't give my own opinion on the matter.

Mascot-like: makes a design more easily recognizable.
or at least something like this.

I'd argue that a majority of gamers would find Ryu, Simon, Sonic, PAC-MAN, Mega Man, and Cloud as having easily recognizable designs. I don't see how that's something unique to Nintendo characters.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Oh before i forget
I'm probably super ultra omega "Slowpoke, Slowpoke slowww" on this but i just now noticed
the Smash website updated the season 2 section of the DLC page to show the full 6 cards representing fighter pack 6-11
View attachment 272416

I know it was up since at least last week. When I was pointing out to someone else that FP6 does not exist. It's CP6. FP means Fighter's Pass, not Fighter's Pack, in context.

Regardless, everybody is obvious on what they think FP means in the context, so other than being "annoyingly incorrect", it doesn't matter.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Perhaps a good analogy is that Smash is a convention.

Nintendo hosts the convention, and most people are the convention are Nintendo affiliated. Third parties are like guest speakers coming in to speak about a topic, and then stay because the convention is ballin'.

The third parties make the convention better and are highlighted as big events, but they're still part of the Nintendo centric convention.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Since this was on the front page, I want to discuss something I noticed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bv2D0fWUc8&feature=emb_title

First, I think Max rambles a bit and says the same thing multiple times. Nonetheless, there was something interesting in what he notes first.

"....because it's Smash Brothers. Because it's now video game All-Stars the game.......Why is Smash as big as it is. Because its not just Nintendo All-Stars anymore. It's video game All-Stars. Smash has now transcended what is just this little Nintendo fighting game into this giant marketing conglomerate game that represents the entire ****ing video game industry. It's not just Smash Bros anymore. It's everything. That's why Smash is as big as it is now. It's video games the game."

What is interesting is his characterization of Smash's growth as becoming a "video game all-star." Moreso the the sheer volume of characters or the fact they brought everyone back. In Max's mind, the growth of Smash Bros is it becoming about video games in general. This isn't an uncommon sentiment but I wonder if people are looking at it wrong.

A lot of this seems to have grown from the DLC, where Nintendo is willing to go all out, and with Ultimate's extra content like Bomberman and Monster Hunter. At the end of 2019, this sentiment was the strongest it has ever been. The assumption was the next character was Doomguy, or Crash or Dante. But then Nintendo throws a curveball, by adding one of their own characters. Then, who starts off Volume 2 isn't another hype third party characters but a fighter from ARMS. In fact, there is a possibility that Volume 2 could be chock full of Nintendo characters. This would fly right in the face of Smash as a video game allstar.

The way I see Smash, in its current form, is Nintendo and Friends. Nintendo characters still make up the majority of the roster, and with ARMS and Byleth, Nintendo is still intent on adding its own characters to Smash. Even still, a lot of the guest characters added were from classic NES games (Megaman and Simon) and ones Nintendo published (Banjo and Bayonetta). But the prevailing idea is that it's not about Nintendo but about video game all-stars. This hasn't been helped by Sakurai as he has pushed this idea with Smash Ultimate's DLC.

My thought is that if Volume 2 does go down more of a Nintendo path, what would these people think? Max is someone who, from what I've seen, got into Smash with the addition of Cloud. His view of Smash Brothers seems to be tied to this idea that Smash Bros has transcended Nintendo. And what happens when they don't. It's clear Nintendo adds who they want. They were willing to do a ton of hype third party characters for Volume 1 but they may scale it back in Volume 2 in order to hold onto the profits. But the hype for DLC is, again, predicated on this idea Max presents. Like Max, a lot of people have come into Smash just because it's "Video Games the Game" as Max describes it. What happens when that doesn't come to pass? I'm not sure but it's something to think about at least.

Frankly, if you watch Max' videos, it's clear why he holds this opinion: it's just that his gaming background seems to revolve around the arcade days and non-Nintendo consoles.


Which is perfectly understandable, but he's also someone that wants a Power Stone character and for Amingo to come back in MvC. Which is literally the Capcom equivalent of Smash fans wanting more niche first parties. And this is coming from someone who loves several games from both companies.


While I agree with pretty much everything else he said... I do think the only reason why he doesn't appear to be excited for first parties is because his Nintendo background isn't as vast as his Capcom one, for example. That's what it comes down to.

Wouldn't it make more sense for said Katarina to be the one from League of Legends doe? She's one of League's Mascots, kinda(It's hard to pinpoint what a 'Mascot' is in League but like she's used a ton in their advertising.

Well, yes, but so are several others like Ahri, Ezreal, Garen and Lux ("too many Lux skins" or "more Lux skins!" is almost an equivalent to "too many swords" in the League community).

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I think one's own thoughts on the current selection of Nintendo characters likely affects the outlook on how much other companies should get a further presence. Just speaking for myself, if we got Bandanna Dee, Dixie Kong, & maybe Impa in Smash I'd consider the first parties essentially covered and wouldn't really object to purely third party characters from that point on. It'll be a different story for someone else who might consider Xenoblade to still be an untapped source for characters that, in their estimation, could further diversify the game in either movesets or subtle character designs without the need for third parties.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Am I the only one still feeling Banjo could be still the only exceptional case of an true western being added to Smash? I say this due to the franchises ties to Nintendo having been 2nd party once owned by RareWare and being back on the N64 back then.

Still something folks should keep in mind and lower expectations to avoid disappointment if we don't see anymore western reps.

Otherwise notice how the Smash roster with 3rd parties included consisting of characters and franchises that were made in Japan?

Y’know completely unrelated to... whatever the hell is going on above but I think that there’s a solid possibility the character after ARMS will be a really big character. I’m talking like Master Chief or Lara Croft big because, this ARMS character is getting released when Fighter 7 SHOULD have been revealed, whether CO-Vid has effected it or not who knows, which means 7 and potentially 8 would’ve been the E3 Reveals.

With that in mind who do we think the character could be that would make the biggest splash? Someone like Geno for fan favoritism that has been at E3 with Ridley and Banjo? Or someone out of nowhere like Joker? Who are your guesses?

I think FP7 is possible for next month but given the timespan of the release of Season Pass 2 I can't see three fighters being revealed on the same month.

Also I'm coming to the belief that westerns with ties to Nintendo can only make it in and Banjo being that exceptional due to being owned by RareWare and formerly 2nd parties with Nintendo being big back then on the N64.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I do worry about Western 3rd parties as unless Zoom calls will suffice, there's no way that Sakurai will get the in person approvals he needs for the process.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I do worry about Western 3rd parties as unless Zoom calls will suffice, there's no way that Sakurai will get the in person approvals he needs for the process.

Yeah. That's my only reason to worry about them. Though I think he might've still gotten them approved a long time ago, but can't meet with everyone easily for development, so I can imagine a few characters, and the order they're in, were changed. With some negotiations(and I'm sure many will cooperate too, as they fully understand the situation).

But who knows. I don't really see Banjo as an exception anyway. Some characters were also for the Western fanbases anyway(Ridley and Little Mac to name two), so he keeps Western stuff in mind.

 

[SKX31]

I do worry about Western 3rd parties as unless Zoom calls will suffice, there's no way that Sakurai will get the in person approvals he needs for the process.

Nah, RDR2's the way to go:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Seriously though, there's a decently strong chance that meeting other Japanese companies in person are a major risk in itself at the moment - even if the virus has slowed down there. So conference calls via the net is probably the safer option. A lot of Japanese firms have started to switch to teleworking (although as the article notes, it's a very slow shift, with many firms still calling in workers), so it ain't just Nintendo doing that.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

But who knows. I don't really see Banjo as an exception anyway. Some characters were also for the Western fanbases anyway(Ridley and Little Mac to name two), so he keeps Western stuff in mind.

Not that.

I'm referring to Western created which Banjo was. Not fanbase as those two andwas.

And yes whileandwere created by western developers, they still originated from games made in Japan. Also despite being western requests bothandwere from Japanese created games on top of being Nintendo characters.

 

[Vintage Creep]

Even if I consider Ultimate factually the first roster in the franchise that feels complete after the inclusion of Ridley, K. Rool and Banjo, there are a few characters from already represented franchises that feels weird they were left out, but they're minor:

- Dixie Kong: simply because it looks like a simple enough addition (semi-echo) and it's weird to finally have K. Rool but not her

- Waluigi: hate all you want but this is the final joke character to end all joke characters, I think he's extremely minor in the main series, but outside of it he's obviously relevant enough to become a meme, so Sakurai should add him as the final troll character really

- a new Zelda rep, ANY Zelda rep really

- Xenoblade also deserves a second rep

All other Nintendo franchises really are already well represented enough, unless something weird happens like a new F-Zero which at that point would make a new character, echo or not, to be rightfully included.

All the rest should be characters representing new worlds and franchises, both from Nintendo and outside Nintendo imho. Or at least they should have precedence (bar characters that will happen no matter what like new Pokémon / new FE protagonist, I'm referring only to the current state of things).

Regarding third parties already repped, I think Sonic and Final Fantasy (if possible), definitely deserve at least a new character. Sonic simply for its massive cast of iconic friends, and Final Fantasy because literally the only installment currently referenced is 7, and kinda badly even.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Smash for Wii U also added 5 new third party series with playable characters and these new third parties were generally more iconic than the 5 we saw added in Ultimate (getting Mega Man, PAC-Man, Street Fighter, and Final Fantasy as new additions is still super impressive)

Well stated.
Unfortunately, I do miss the huge hype factor that Sm4sh had.
The series you mentioned above all stand out far beyond the third party characters we have gotten so far in Ultimate.
I do hope we can get some huge legacy characters in this game. Characters from series that transcend video games (Tomb Raider, Mortal Kombat, Frogger, Kingdom Hearts, Resident Evil... there is a huge list, it's moderately subjective, but we the closest we have gotten to that was Castlevania).

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Not that.

I'm referring to Western created which Banjo was. Not fanbase as those two andwas.

And yes whileandwere created by western developers, they still originated from games made in Japan. Also despite being western requests bothandwere from Japanese created games on top of being Nintendo characters.

I don't think that matters in the end. I don't really believe it's as Japanese-focused as you make it out to be. There's of course some focus, but that's due to knowing more about Japanese games.

Now here's something of note; Yacht Club Games for Shovel Knight's AT requires a lot more than just a quick image and a talk over a messenger service. All the animations have to be okayed as well. It's important they are okay with how SK is represented. Capcom USA, the owner of Street Fighter, is absolutely a Western company and Sakurai went to them twice for massive content(Playable in 4, and then again for the stuff in Ultimate). So... yeah, I'd say B-K is no exception. Capcom USA is of course a branch of Capcom Co LTD., but the only real reason why B-K had difficultly was overseas talk, not cause "not Japanese" in any way. That's not a big deal.

Now will Sakurai go to a Western company for a third set of content(that requires the company to pay attention to what's being done. At least spirit battles are kind of easy to go about. Or regular random spirits without those, as it's "show a picture, approve of stats, done."). Licensing can easily be done on the net too.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I am kind of impressed no one has actually talked about the possibility of a Splatoon 2 rep (maybe because a lot of people consider Octoling only plausible as an echo, which totally could have happened) considering all the little hints and similarities with ARMS, both have a or had a free demo this year, both cycles of updates are most likely over and they didn't have a stage, most of the Splatoon content is definitely from the first game (I always thought it was a little weird that Pearl and Marina were not even assist considering Callie and Marie). None of those things are that exceptional and they are not really related to smash, even though the free demo was definitely out there as an uncommon occurrence, until today Nintendo of America tweeted about the prize of their next open tournament: a copy of ARMS (the connection to Smash is obvious), a fighters pass 2 download and lastly a Splatoon 2 digital copy, obviously it could be that Nintendo chose their e-sport titles as prizes but the timing seems a little off and i wouldn't even be surprised if the winners already have all of those titles, anyway i find the idea to be an interesting approach, as before this i did not even considered a possible Splatoon 2 fighter pack in the slightest.

(One of the key differences i find in both case is that Splatoon 2 did get music in the game, so maybe if they were to add a Splatoon 2 rep they would choose Octo Expansion music??)

3, 2, 1, GO! The #SmashBrosUltimate North American Online Open May 2020 tournament kicks off on 5/30 and is open for registration today! The top 4 players will win download codes for the Fighters Pass Vol. 2, #Splatoon2, and #ARMS. Register today!https://t.co/PY1OAYYlId pic.twitter.com/ycd5mLXMSL

— Nintendo of America (@NintendoAmerica) May 21, 2020

I mean Octo Expansion did come out in June 2018 but the only OE content in base are the spirits of the OE Octoling Octopus and Agent 8 (aka Octoling Girl & Octoling Boy)

AND YES. I HECKIN NEED FLY OCTO FLY IN SMASH

anyway... what was up with that master core looking thing in last night’s POTD??

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I don't think that matters in the end. I don't really believe it's as Japanese-focused as you make it out to be. There's of course some focus, but that's due to knowing more about Japanese games.

Now here's something of note; Yacht Club Games for Shovel Knight's AT requires a lot more than just a quick image and a talk over a messenger service. All the animations have to be okayed as well. It's important they are okay with how SK is represented. Capcom USA, the owner of Street Fighter, is absolutely a Western company and Sakurai went to them twice for massive content(Playable in 4, and then again for the stuff in Ultimate). So... yeah, I'd say B-K is no exception. Capcom USA is of course a branch of Capcom Co LTD., but the only real reason why B-K had difficultly was overseas talk, not cause "not Japanese" in any way. That's not a big deal.

Now will Sakurai go to a Western company for a third set of content(that requires the company to pay attention to what's being done. At least spirit battles are kind of easy to go about. Or regular random spirits without those, as it's "show a picture, approve of stats, done."). Licensing can easily be done on the net too.

As you mentioned though Capcom USA is an extension of Capcom Co LTD and I looked it up and Street Fighter was made by Takashi Nishiyama and Hiroshi Matsumoto.

Then again fair point with Shovel Knight, I apparently forgot about him being an assist and Shantae too as a spirit for that matter. Guess there are no exceptions then.

 

[Perkilator]

Dragonite because it's better than lame Charizard. Besides we could all use a real dragon in Smash bros.

Fun fact: there was unused data for Dragonite, model and everything, presumably to be a Poké Ball summon.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

As you mentioned though Capcom USA is an extension of Capcom Co LTD and I looked it up and Street Fighter was made by two Takashi Nishiyama and Hiroshi Matsumoto.

Then again fair point with Shovel Knight, I apparently forgot about him being an assist and Shantae too as a spirit for that matter. Guess there are no exceptions then.

The point is the only reason Western characters have had trouble getting in is due to how hard it is for Sakurai to communicate. It has nothing to do with "not Japanese". He clearly values Western companies, but obviously Japanese companies are easier for him to work with. It's a language barrier.

...Oh, right, and the communication issues mostly come up when it's more than just "spirit" or a "trophy", since a big part is representing the character right. This requires extra communications certain cameos do not. So it doesn't matter how big of ties they have to Nintendo, or whether the overall IP is technically Japanese-owned. It matters who they talk to. Sakurai talks to multiple Western companies in order to get content that requires a lot of communication. So basically? Yeah, it's a big deal and B-K isn't really an exception in that regard. Shovel Knight and Street Fighter effectively have the same thing B-K does, language barrier issues, but still got in for their own reasons in that particular role.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Another factor that was in Banjo's favor too was how highly requested he was. Up there withandand despite not being confirmed as an ballot pick its pretty obvious that he most likely was.

But most of all it was due to the thanks of the relationship between Nintendo and Microsoft and their cross promotion of Minecraft as well as being ported to the Switch.

As a matter of fact I could see Steve being one of the more likely western reps if we are to get more due to this. Plus given its an game that with no talking probably makes it easier to do.

 

[Dinoman96]

Shovel Knight's in bit of a weird grey area. The thing is, Nintendo actually published his game in Japan. This is actually reflected in the way Shovel Knight's spirits are grouped in the spirits inventory: they're grouped with the misc. Nintendo IPs like Dillon and HarmoKnight.

Rayman's spirit is the same way, as Nintendo published Rayman Legends in Japan as well.

It seems to me that Shovel Knight and Rayman's cameos are really based around their status as sorta-quasi Nintendo characters as a result of Nintendo publishing some of their recent games in the east. At the end of the base game spirit lineup are the misc. third party characters: Bomberman, Akira and Shantae. So really, Shantae is basically the odd girl out because she's the only IP in the base game that doesn't pertain to a Nintendo published title in Japan or a third party company that already has a playable rep on the roster.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Shovel Knight's in bit of a weird grey area. The thing is, Nintendo actually published his game in Japan. This is actually reflected in the way Shovel Knight's spirits are grouped in the spirits inventory: they're grouped with the misc. Nintendo IPs like Dillon and HarmoKnight.

Rayman's spirit is the same way, as Nintendo published Rayman Legends in Japan as well.

It seems to me that Shovel Knight and Rayman's cameos are really based around their status as sorta-quasi Nintendo characters as a result of Nintendo publishing some of their recent games in the east. At the end of the base game spirit lineup are the misc. third party characters: Bomberman, Akira and Shantae. So really, Shantae is basically the odd girl out because she's the only IP in the base game that doesn't pertain to a Nintendo published thing somewhere in the world or a third party company that already has a playable rep on the roster.

In Rayman's case as well though. Its also Nintendo's and Ubisoft's relationship given the Rabbids crossover game with Mario and Rayman being an trophy in Sm4sh.

 

[Garteam]

I really don't know how people are reading any post that advocates for a Nintendo character as "Nintendo good, third parties bad". It's not a dichotomy, you can like both and think both have their merits. I don't know if it's some feeling of "you're holding Smash back", "You're just a fanboy who doesn't personally want third parties", but no one's saying that. No one (I've talked to at least) feels that Nintendo should kick out all the third parties or something, they just feel there's still merit to looking back in the old stable that many have characterized as "the bottom of barrel". Does that mean every choice should be a first party? No, but giving them a chance is still something we should really do.

Maybe a slight refocus on the conversation isn't such a bad thing, given we've basically been going in a cycle since right after E3:

1. Focus on the 10 to 15 characters that would be the most "hype", with hype usually being measured by how many people would upload videos of themselves screaming at their trailer on YouTube.
2. A character gets revealed and, lo and behold, it's not one of those characters.
3. The sky falls. Everyone simultaneously talks about how "no one could've seen this coming" and "we should have seen this coming". People claim this thread has a bubble problem and arguing begins about who we consider likely and why.
4. We come to the conclusion that we should look at the same set of characters as before, maybe getting rid of one or two faces and subbing them out with someone who better matches the previous character announced.

I mean... we've done this with Terry, Byleth, and now the ARMS rep. All three were characters that make a lot of sense and seem obvious in hindsight, but were largely overlooked because they didn't fit this strange standard of how "hype" a Smash character should be. We're likely going to do it three or four more times before all's said and done. I want this thread to be right more often too, but that's gonna require looking at things from a slightly different angle and possibly even hearing unpopular or unconventional opinions with a somewhat open ear. We're going to have to rethink why characters get into Smash and look at things a little more deeply than the surface. We have to let go of this "Hall of Fame" mentality where Smash is little more than a popularity contest.

I dunno, maybe I'm being overly pessimistic and we're right on the pulse with who we're talking about now, but it is slightly frustrating to see outside voices and opinions get trampled over in favour of a status quo. We don't have abandon who we're looking at and reinvent the wheel or anything like that, but I still think we try and make the thread more inclusive to outside opinions. I know that's not something I've been the best at recently, and it's definitely something I want to get better at. I'm hoping maybe some of the community feels the same way and wants to address this.

 

[Dinoman96]

In Rayman's case as well though. Its also Nintendo's and Ubisoft's relationship given the Rabbids crossover game with Mario and Rayman being an trophy in Sm4sh.

True, but I do think it's a bit telling that all of Rayman's representation (the trophies in 4 and the spirit in Ultimate) in Smash is based solely around Legends, the one game published by Nintendo. I still think that might be the only reason he even shows up in Smash at all lol.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

As I was asking:

pic.twitter.com/zK8G4H9BBo

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) May 22, 2020

Is this Dracula mid teleport or something? The resemblance to Master Core’s humanoid form is uncanny

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I can say from experience that a lot of people misunderstand people who prefer first-parties over third-parties and assume that their argument is essentially, "Third-parties are bad! Our Nintendo favorites are superior!"

I don't mind a few third-parties sprinkled here and there, but I fell in love with Smash because it was a Nintendo crossover. I grew up with mostly Nintendo consoles, so it should be no surprise that Nintendo characters are who I have the most connection with. Does that mean I think we shouldn't get more third-parties? Of course not. That being said, I'd like for Smash to keep its focus on Nintendo, not because I don't want to be inclusive, but rather because shifting the focus to adding mostly third-parties isn't the direction I'd like to see Smash go in. It makes things so broad that the odds of a character I like getting one of the limited ten or so slots are significantly smaller than if we just focused on first-parties.

That's just how I personally would like to see Smash be handled in the future. I understand that some people might be done with Nintendo characters because the abundance of notable and iconic third-parties out there makes everything else look small by comparison. It's fine if you feel that way, but I see a lot of untapped potential in Nintendo characters. Since I have the greatest attachment to those franchises, those are the ones I'm naturally going to favor.

I'm going to be honest, I don't really know if I consider the "Well I grew up with a Nintendo console so I'm less inclined to third parties" as all that valid of a stance. Like every single Nintendo console has had notable third parties to varying degrees even if their legacy has tended to be "worse third party support." I grew up much like many people with Nintendo as my only outlet for video games: NES > Gameboy Advance > Gamecube > Wii/DS before I finally got an original Xbox when I was like 11 because a friend sold theirs for cheap. And it would be another couple years before I got the first proper modern console in the PS3 in like 2010. Like I grew up in the same circumstance of mostly Nintendo focused with a limited selection I could own, but I never looked at third party titles with anything less than admiration and a desire to play more. I remember being excited as hell to play Castlevania, Mega Man, and Sonic for the first time on my Wii through the VC. I read about Resident Evil 4 as the best Gamecube game and just remember wishing I was older so I could finally play it. I bought Final Fantasy III because it was super cheap at GameStop and played it very poorly because archaic and old JRPGs weren't something I had any experience with. There was always quite a bit to explore, and being subscribed to Nintendo Power? THAT meant I was always seeing new stuff and trying to figure out what I could spend my limited money and birthday presents on. Sure, I often chose Nintendo's newest and biggest games, but I never really thought of third parties as all that separate from Nintendo despite knowing there were several I just didn't have the chance to play.

"I grew up with a Nintendo console" has always, to put it bluntly, felt like more of an excuse for yourself as to why people don't want more third parties. Third parties weren't that uncommon to come across growing up on Nintendo consoles and the vast vast majority of third parties in Smash were fairly notable on Nintendo consoles long before they ever showed up. I don't expect people to like them all or necessarily love them, of course not, but I also remember growing up in the same situation and even if I lovingly stared at Brawl's massive amount of Nintendo history and content with inquisitive and delighted eyes, third parties never once bothered me and I never felt anymore disconnected from them despite growing up with a massive Nintendo focus in my life. The games were there, the third parties were there.

And frankly, again, Smash currently has 69 first party characters, and of the third parties, all but 4 have a lot of significant history with Nintendo (Cloud doesn't himself, but Final Fantasy absolutely does). I'm not saying that's "too many" or even "enough", just that's I think it's important to keep in mind for perspective even as Smash may lean more into third parties at this stage. It's fine to want more, and I'm even there with people in some regards. That list of 17 you did had several characters I would have even liked from the first party, but it's not really a bad thing for Smash to embrace the additional crossover status while it retains the 20 years of work its done with first parties as well. You may like Nintendo to go deeper in on their existing cuts and others certainly will agree, but I think we're quickly approaching the objective reality of that starting to be a limiting factor for the size of the fan base. The further removed you get from the main characters and big franchises, the fewer people that have connections with those characters and the less recognizable they come, even among Nintendo fans too. We're not quite there yet, but we're quickly approach that point (which is why I've brought up Nintendo making new icons and franchises as it's a way to push that point further out). It's rare to see any title choose to limit its audience instead of trying to expand it, and when Smash is as big as it is, I just don't see them actively choosing to move away from that. Ultimate's overall content package and ability to appeal to all kinds of people has resulted in one of the most single profitable titles for Nintendo ever and an evergreen title that they are going to lean on heavily for continued Nintendo Switch sales. It's going to be hard for them to shift away from Ultimate being the biggest "fighting game" ever.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Every time someone says character art styles clashing in Smash would be a bad thing, a kitten orphanage gets set on fire. Not even Zelda can get a huge crossover without clashing artstyles

 

[Perkilator]

As I was asking:

pic.twitter.com/zK8G4H9BBo

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) May 22, 2020

Is this Dracula mid teleport or something? The resemblance to Master Core’s humanoid form is uncanny

Pretty sure that’s the Mummy. I’ve seen the cameos entering up close.

 

[OrpheusTelos]

And frankly, again, Smash currently has 69 first party characters

actually, we don't need to add any more first party characters. we already have the perfect amount and we'd need to add 351 more to get it back to being a perfect number. no need to add more when the perfect argument for no more first parties exists

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Likewise, the third party choices we've gotten in recent years also reinforce a Nintendo theme, while detracting from a general crossover theme. Banjo and Kazooie probably wouldn't have beat a Resident Evil, Assassin's Creed, or Grand Theft Auto character if we were judging who would get into a general gaming crossover.

I think you’re misinterpreting Sakurai’s statement about Smash becoming a celebration of all things gaming as him focusing on the biggest third-party characters from now on, when it’s really him saying the scope of this crossover has expanded, not narrowed down, especially in the context of a presentation for Byleth, the eight FE and who doesn’t bring a new AAA third-party franchise.

Which is the point - Smash in the eyes of Sakurai has always been a “character game” before it is a “franchise game” and any video game character added would increase the video game crossover aspects regardless of whether they come from an existing Franchise or not. Even if we got someone as insignificant as Geno, a one-shot Mario side character whose only major appearance is in one of Mario’ more minor spin off game, he’d still add and not detract from the video game crossover theme by virtue of being a video game character and allowing you to play matchups that can only be imagined, such as Geno vs Rosalina, Geno vs Mega Man, and so on.

Even if we got nothing but Nintendo characters from now on, Smash wouldn’t be any less of a video game crossover or a celebration of all things gaming because these are all video game characters that add character crossover opportunities.

I mean... we've done this with Terry, Byleth, and now the ARMS rep. All three were characters that make a lot of sense and seem obvious in hindsight, but were largely overlooked because they didn't fit this strange standard of how "hype" a Smash character should be. We're likely going to do it three or four more times before all's said and done. I want this thread to be right more often too, but that's gonna require looking at things from a slightly different angle and possibly even hearing unpopular or unconventional opinions with a somewhat open ear. We're going to have to rethink why characters get into Smash and look at things a little more deeply than the surface. We have to let go of this "Hall of Fame" mentality where Smash is little more than a popularity contest.

That is not going to happen. What is going to happen is that people are going to continue being wrong time and time again.