Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[PeridotGX]

Probably because Shadow despite looking like Sonic has different abilities notably Chaos Emeralds and the fact he uses guns in some games.

Honestly Shadow is different enough he can be given his own moveset or be an semi-clone at most.

Every echo could've been made unique if they wanted, it's not something special Shadow has. He would've worked fine as an echo.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Every echo could've been made unique if they wanted, it's not something special Shadow has. He would've worked fine as an echo.

Even Ken? Not too familiar with Street Fighter having never played the games but I always taken him as someone who plays just like Ryu since the original game.

 

[Vintage Creep]

Probably should had been a little more clear. When I said uses guns I meant use them for his moveset.

That really happened in one game and in the rest he plays almost exactly like Sonic.
If Sakurai ever thought of adding Shadow he surely thought of him as a Sonic clone/echo with small adjustments like the running animation being different.
The fact he didn't happen simply means he didn't have enough time nor interest to do it, or both.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

That really happened in one game and in the rest he plays almost exactly like Sonic.
If Sakurai ever thought of adding Shadow he surely thought of him as a Sonic clone/echo with small adjustments like the running animation being different.
The fact he didn't happen simply means he didn't have enough time nor interest to do it, or both.

And the Chaos Emeralds?

 

[PeridotGX]

And the Chaos Emeralds?

this is all the chaos emerald Shadow needs.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

this is all the chaos emerald Shadow needs.

I thought they played differently given his assist is him doing Chaos Control?

 

[pupNapoleon]

Wow- I'm excited for a Paper Mario game for the first time in my life. It was eerie, played on familiar tropes, seemed to reinvent what was always discussed as being beloved in the brand. And who could not love that ending- 'he's preparing for a battle!' You're damned right he is, random character I already cannot remember! He's clearly being primed as the next Smash character.

Finally after all this time I am hyped for a beloved RPG. Thank you Nintendo.

 

[Vintage Creep]

And the Chaos Emeralds?

Super Shadow would work perfectly fine exactly like Super Sonic.
It really is a matter of perspective and logic:
is Shadow so big of a character to warrant a new moveset when he could perfectly work as a clone / echo?
Not at all, and we could use that development time to create a more interesting and relevant new character instead
is Shadow big enough to appear as an echo that would also actually have sense canonically? Yes
Hence, his only chance is him appearing as Sonic's echo, and it's a pretty big one mind you, in fact I'm surprised he wasn't already

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Super Shadow would work perfectly fine exactly like Super Sonic.
It really is a matter of perspective and logic:
is Shadow so big of a character to warrant a new moveset when he could perfectly work as a clone / echo?
Not at all, and we could use that development time to create a more interesting and relevant new character instead
is Shadow big enough to appear as an echo that would also actually have sense canonically? Yes
Hence, his only chance is him appearing as Sonic's echo, and it's a pretty big one mind you, in fact I'm surprised he wasn't already

Having never played Sonic much, I figured given the way he uses them in his assist was differently with Chaos Control slowing time down.

 

[Vintage Creep]

Having never played Sonic much, I figured given the way he uses them in his assist was differently with Chaos Control slowing time down.

Yeah he can manipulate time but it's not as big of a characteristic of his to be a problem if that aspect does not appear in his moveset imho, the vast majority of appearances he plays exactly like Sonic, especially his most famous (arguably) one, which is his first in Adventure 2.

 

[Megadoomer]

View attachment 271757
this is all the chaos emerald Shadow needs.

I don't know; he really wanted to find one specific Chaos Emerald more than the others. (I can't believe that this was the first Sonic game that the 4Kids voice actors dubbed)

 

[pupNapoleon]

Even Ken? Not too familiar with Street Fighter having never played the games but I always taken him as someone who plays just like Ryu since the original game.

Ken is.... barely an echo as is. He's more unique than Dr Mario.

 

[PeridotGX]

I don't know; he really wanted to find one specific Chaos Emerald more than the others. (I can't believe that this was the first Sonic game that the 4Kids voice actors dubbed)

his one difference from Sonic is that instead of using the 7 chaos emeralds, he uses 7 copies of the damn fourth one. He did the Endgame time heist on 6 alternate timelines and stole their damn fourth chaos emerald. Sonic dies in those timelines.

 

[Perkilator]

View attachment 271757
this is all the chaos emerald Shadow needs.

I dunno...you're underselling what he can do with just ONE Chaos Emerald...just saying.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Im bummed i missed the conversation on Paper Mario.

Finally Nintendo news on a first party game we didnt know about, and the forum seems silent, indifferent, or indignant on it.
Damn.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

TheCJBrine The cool thing about Metal Mario the character is that he has a much more specific design than the Metal Box does now. Metal Mario is a solid color. The Metal Box characters now are basically the character with a metal coating, but keeps their actual costume colors from beforehand. This is mainly to tell ones like Pit and Dark Pit actually apart. So you can tell Metal Mario apart from Metal Box'd Mario. It's obviously not as different as ones like Metal Sonic, but he does stand out more now from the item.

He's a low-key want for an Echo for me. A nice easy one for Mario(or a clone, if having a massively different weight means he can't be an Echo, even if that's an arbitrary reason, to be honest. No better than why Dr. Mario can't, much different stats, heh). Note I didn't really have time to fully read through your moveset yet. Been a busy morning.

 

[PeridotGX]

his one difference from Sonic is that instead of using the 7 chaos emeralds, he uses 7 copies of the damn fourth one. He did the Endgame time heist on 6 alternate timelines and stole their damn fourth chaos emerald. Sonic dies in those timelines.

could some sonic fans actually answer if this would work?

1 - Could Shadow go Super Shadow with 7 of the same chaos emerald? Are the emeralds all the same save color, or do they have different properties?

2 - How ****ed would sonic be if one of the chaos emeralds just stopped existing?

 

[DarthEnderX]

Oop, new page.

...is this your first time using a forum?

: Are we a joke to you?

Yes. It's dumb we have 3 of you, Link. We don't need to repeat that mistake with Mario.

At least the 3 Links are technically different people though.

Probably because Shadow despite looking like Sonic has different abilities notably Chaos Emeralds and the fact he uses guns in some games.

Not in his original playable appearance in Sonic Adventure 2 he didn't. He was basically just Sonic with a different run animation in that game.

And considering Sonic doesn't even have a moveset that reflects his entire gaming career, there's no reason Shadow would have to either.

Even Ken? Not too familiar with Street Fighter having never played the games but I always taken him as someone who plays just like Ryu since the original game.

They played identically in SF1 and base SF2, but since then, have been differentiating more and more with each game in the series.

Ken is.... barely an echo as is. He's more unique than Dr Mario.

Which is why Dr. Mario should have been an echo.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Instead of putting a bunch of Marios in Smash, Mario should just get his own fighting game where you pit a bunch of Marios against eachother.

Mario
Doctor Mario
Metal Mario
Builder Mario from Mario Maker
Paper Mario
Baby Mario
Jump Man
Lego Mario
Pinball Mario
Mario Kart (Mario moving and attacking while in a kart)

See, why the hell does Nintendo not hire me with me genius ideas?

That's a fantastic idea. And to cash in on the popularity of Super Smash Bros, it could be sold as a spin-off. I'd name it... Super Mario Bros.

@ Nintendo I'll be mailing the invoice.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Im bummed i missed the conversation on Paper Mario.

Scroll up?

That's a fantastic idea. And to cash in on the popularity of Super Smash Bros, it could be sold as a spin-off. I'd name it... Super Mario Bros.

The Super Mario Bros. 10.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Im bummed i missed the conversation on Paper Mario.

Finally Nintendo news on a first party game we didnt know about, and the forum seems silent, indifferent, or indignant on it.
Damn.

I think a lot of people are reticent about being too complimentary or too critical about Origami King given how little we still know. Another PM game with depth is what many have been hoping for, but after Sticker Star and Color Splash, there's a reluctance to give the game the benefit of the doubt by a decent amount of people until further information and reviews come in.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I think a lot of people are reticent about being too complimentary or too critical about Origami King given how little we still know. Another PM game with depth is what many have been hoping for, but after Sticker Star and Color Splash, there's a reluctance to give the game the benefit of the doubt by a decent amount of people until further information and reviews come in.

Exactly. The last 2-3 games have been bad, and, so far at least, this one looks more like those than the early good ones.

It's also not Super Mario RPG Remake. Which is what I REALLY wanted.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

At least the 3 Links are technically different people though.

Paper Jam reveals this isn't the case as the world of Paper Mario is set in an book.

Also Paper Mario plays far differently from the other Mario's as oppose to those Links with each other.

Hammer, Spring Jump, Paper Forms, Partners and variety of other abilities in the Paper Mario games. Plus being paper, he'd obviously be an lightweight.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

could some sonic fans actually answer if this would work?

1 - Could Shadow go Super Shadow with 7 of the same chaos emerald? Are the emeralds all the same save color, or do they have different properties?

This has never been the case. He's able to go into a Hero or Dark Mode with its energy though, no different from Sonic siphoning energy from one Emerald or a Ring to gain massive power. Shadow's Chaos Control is supposed to require the use of a Chaos Emerald, though. Same with the ability to go into Hero or Dark Mode. He carries a Green one with him as base.

2 - How ****ed would sonic be if one of the chaos emeralds just stopped existing?

Very. You need all 7 to go Super. Though only if it's the only way to stop something. 6 Emeralds is still massively powerful theoretically, but you can blame the TV shows for that. They made it clear they have tons of untapped energy one can siphon. Hell, Sonic X perhaps is the best show to understand just how neat they can, and even one can do a lot. To put it into perspective, Sonic can barely match a machine who is powered by two of them. He can't even be faster than it. He still has enough natural strength, at least.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Even Ken? Not too familiar with Street Fighter having never played the games but I always taken him as someone who plays just like Ryu since the original game.

I believe he's much different in Street Fighter V.

I thought they played differently given his assist is him doing Chaos Control?

Sonic can use Chaos Control as well (and the ability may or may not do whatever the writers want it to do). Shadow does use it way more often though.

As far as gameplay goes, Shadow is always the same gameplay style as Sonic, and I wouldn't be surprised if they were usually the same mechanically. Still, he does have abilities he can use (and at the very least, adjustments that can be made) in order to differentiate him from Sonic if they wanted to.

This has never been the case. He's able to go into a Hero or Dark Mode with its energy though, no different from Sonic siphoning energy from one Emerald or a Ring to gain massive power.

Doesn't he do it at the end of Sonic Adventure 2 or is that Hero mode?

 

[AntagonisticGalaxyCetacea]

Every echo could've been made unique if they wanted, it's not something special Shadow has. He would've worked fine as an echo.

Shadow as an Echo would be terrible.

I personally feel that Shadow should still be speedy, but his primary focus is dealing damage. And his Chaos powers need to be represented at least.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Doesn't he do it at the end of Sonic Adventure 2 or is that Hero mode?

Hero/Dark Mode uses one Emerald(it's always the Green one first, to match what Shadow used in Adventure 2 by default). To clarify, he never needed more than in-story. Though it is possible to fill up your meter a lot and invoke it before getting an Emerald, but story-factor was intended to have One Emerald = Access to Hero/Dark Modes.

The End of Adventure 2 is neither of those. What he did was release a different set of powers by removing his limiters. It's unrelated to either Mode nor is it him going Super form. This is powerful enough that he falls unconscious after the usage every time thusfar. Eggman generally saves him after cause he has a heart.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Shadow as an Echo would be terrible.

I personally feel that Shadow should still be speedy, but his primary focus is dealing damage. And his Chaos powers need to be represented at least.

He could still do this as an Echo Fighter. Just slow him down, make him a bit more powerful, change a few moves here and there, and then change one or two of his Special Moves to something that deals with Chaos Control, be it a teleport (which might further help making him less campy than Sonic) or something like Witch Time.

The End of Adventure 2 is neither of those. What he did was release a different set of powers by removing his limiters. It's unrelated to either Mode nor is it him going Super form.

Ah so it's a one-off ability or something he can just do all the time. Likely the former since why would he not solve the plot in 10 seconds otherwise.

 

[TheCJBrine]

TheCJBrine The cool thing about Metal Mario the character is that he has a much more specific design than the Metal Box does now. Metal Mario is a solid color. The Metal Box characters now are basically the character with a metal coating, but keeps their actual costume colors from beforehand. This is mainly to tell ones like Pit and Dark Pit actually apart. So you can tell Metal Mario apart from Metal Box'd Mario. It's obviously not as different as ones like Metal Sonic, but he does stand out more now from the item.

He's a low-key want for an Echo for me. A nice easy one for Mario(or a clone, if having a massively different weight means he can't be an Echo, even if that's an arbitrary reason, to be honest. No better than why Dr. Mario can't, much different stats, heh). Note I didn't really have time to fully read through your moveset yet. Been a busy morning.

Yeah I think he’d be cool, and that sounds great. I thought Metal Mario would look different, too, even if he may have some shine.

About the moveset, tbh I only came up with some small differences, as I wasn’t really sure what unique moves to give him aside from the 3D Mario ground pound and I guess the metal sheet could work a bit different from the cape and doctor’s sheet. I like this idea of him being a sorta mysterious “reflection” clone of Mario, too, or whatever Nintendo thinks he’s supposed to be. I’d love his inclusion as a fighter/more-unique echo fighter, too, which is why I thought I’d share the idea, though I know he’s very unlikely even outside of DLC...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Ah so it's a one-off ability or something he can just do all the time. Likely the former since why would he not solve the plot in 10 seconds otherwise.

To renote my edit, it also leaves him unconscious, so he never releases his full power outside of "a time of need".

The first time we aren't sure if he is left unconscious is during 06, but he's with his friends, and considering he's trapped in a capsule in the future, well... it's implied at least.

Yeah I think he’d be cool, and that sounds great. I thought Metal Mario would look different, too, even if he may have some shine.

About the moveset, tbh I only came up with some small differences, as I wasn’t really sure what unique moves to give him aside from the 3D Mario ground pound and I guess the metal sheet could work a bit different from the cape and doctor’s sheet. I like this idea of him being a sorta mysterious “reflection” clone of Mario, too, or whatever Nintendo thinks he’s supposed to be. I’d love his inclusion as a fighter/more-unique echo fighter, too, which is why I thought I’d share the idea, though I know he’s very unlikely even outside of DLC...

Well, he first got separated in Smash Bros. 64 and Mario Kart. Those are areas to look at. You could also use some of his other Cap abilities too. Change the Fireballs to a metal aesthetic as is. The spin makes sense somewhat, but his Forward B even could be a remake of Luigi's, with him jetting forward while wearing the Wing Cap(think the Superman Push that Raiden has in Mortal Kombat) for a more unique take on it. Could also become a glide state while using it in the air.

Being it's still a form of Mario, you have unique taunts. You could return the size growth one, despite it being... admittedly a bad taunt. You could throw in the Invisible Cap for his Air Dodge and Side Step as is. I'm not sure what you could easily replace the Fire Punch(Mario's Forward Smash) with element-wise. Other than a bigger Metal punch to get the idea across I guess? As noted, weight is a big thing. He's a lot stronger, but has way less jumping power(no different from how the Cap is meant to work). He could barely swim, but wouldn't get a drowning animation and would sink very easily. There's a lot that separates him from regular Mario in that way. Besides being cockier.

(I won't deny Paper Mario has more potential for uniqueness, heh. But I love both versions as is. They're both neat in their own right~ Paper Mario is having an issue of too many abilities now, so toning it down to one set is not easy).

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

...or whatever Nintendo thinks he’s supposed to be.

Easy roster padding?

Jokes aside, I think he could be fun, but not too terribly interesting from a mechanical standpoint, especially since he'd be a more polarized (and therefore much weaker) version of Dr. Mario as you've described him.

To renote my edit, it also leaves him unconscious, so he never releases his full power outside of "a time of need".

The first time we aren't sure if he is left unconscious is during 06, but he's with his friends, and considering he's trapped in a capsule in the future, well... it's implied at least.

Oh ok. I didn't know it appeared after SA2 so that makes more sense.

 

[Cosmic77]

Can't say I understand the resistance to Paper Mario being our third Mario when he can do all of this.

I might be able to understand it if Super Mario hadn't gotten a character in ages and this was Sakurai's answer to that long wait, but I see people all the time bring up "Masked Link", BotW Zelda, and Pig Ganon with a lot of enthusiasm. I also rarely hear people complain about Dark Samus.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Can't say I understand the resistance to Paper Mario being our third Mario when he can do all of this.

I might be able to understand it if Super Mario hadn't gotten a character in ages and this was Sakurai's answer to that long wait, but I see people all the time bring up "Masked Link", BotW Zelda, and Pig Ganon with a lot of enthusiasm. I also rarely hear people complain about Dark Samus.

That's what I'm saying.

Another Mario clone my ***.

 

[DarthEnderX]

This has never been the case.

You are incorrect.

Shadow as an Echo would be terrible.

Then enjoy not getting him at all.

Can't say I understand the resistance to Paper Mario being our third Mario

Because I don't want a third Mario? I want a new franchise to get a rep. Or, failing that, a new character.

 

[Sari]

While I'm totally down for Paper Mario making it in, I really hope he incorporates elements from his first few games and isn't just a glorified paper gimmick.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Can't say I understand the resistance to Paper Mario being our third Mario when he can do all of this.

View attachment 271766

I might be able to understand it if Super Mario hadn't gotten a character in ages and this was Sakurai's answer to that long wait, but I see people all the time bring up "Masked Link", BotW Zelda, and Pig Ganon with a lot of enthusiasm. I also rarely hear people complain about Dark Samus.

OK but you missed the most important part of his potential moveset.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

OK but you missed the most important part of his potential moveset.

Don't forget these guys!

 

[Swamp Sensei]

While I'm totally down for Paper Mario making it in, I really hope he incorporates elements from his first few games and isn't just a glorified paper gimmick.

tfw you realize Paper Mario TTYD started the paper gimmick with its overworld abilities and everyone loved them then

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

tfw you realize Paper Mario TTYD started the paper gimmick with its overworld abilities and everyone loved them then

I'd be willing to bet it's because TTYD's handling of them was pretty cute (I have cursed you with the ability to progress. Oooooooohhh!) and are fun to use. Meanwhile SS, CS, and now TOK are doing it in increasingly contrived ways that aren't fun to use (Though admittedly we haven't used TOK's yet), and in the case of CS, are barely used in the first place so what's the point.

I think at this point it's just seen as a style over substance kinda thing.

 

[PLATINUM7]

tfw you realize Paper Mario TTYD started the paper gimmick with its overworld abilities and everyone loved them then

They didn't come at the expense of memorable characters and enjoyable gameplay back then.