Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Garteam]

>original two

Don’t be dunking on my Super Paper Mario man

it was miles better than SS and CS combined at least

Oh yeah, Super Paper Mario is great! I just prefer the combat systems of the first two. That being said, if I had to choose between Super's combat system and Sticker Star/Colour Splash's, I'd choose Super's with absolutely no hesitation.

 

[Gentlepanda]

paper mario smash brothers

discuss.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

In a twist, its revealed that the ARMS character to be revealed next month was actually Paper Mario with his stretchy Origami arms all along.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I agree that Nintendo doesn't have a monopoly on what's quality and "hype" and I think that's a good point to make, but the opposite is also true. It often feels like "third party" is conflated with "hype, exciting, good choice" in the community, while "first party" is conflated with "boring, safe, chosen by committee". There's Nintendo characters that could be great in Smash, Nintendo characters that are probably better off not in Smash, third parties who would be awesome in Smash, and third parties who should stay as far away as possible from Smash. Variety is the spice of life and it seems that (at least from my view) most of the thread seems to agree that both extremes are bad. Very few people want a first party only pass, while equally as few people want a third party only pass. In fact, I mostly see the idea of Nintendo or Third Party exclusivity brought up when one side is trying to straw man the other. A balance seems to be agreed upon as the way to go.

Where I somewhat disagree is your Bandana Waddle Dee vs. Dante example. I think a lot of people tend to think about the most "hype" choice for a Smash game by who can get the most people screaming at their hypothetical trailer, but that's a poor way to operationalize that. Smash, for better or for worse, has gained a reputation as "Gaming's Hall of Fame". For a lot of people who either play Smash very casually (like, played Ultimate for the first month, put it down, and maybe pick it back up once a year when they have friends over) or don't play Smash at all, advocating for a character in Smash is less about getting them in a platform fighter and more about getting them in the hall of fame. They'll watch the trailer, discuss it a little online, forget about it a week later, and maybe will download the character and play for an hour one afternoon.

Contrast this with people who play Smash frequently with friends, online, or at tournaments, pour over every statement Sakurai said to figure out exactly how the game is made and how he adds characters, and spend hours making hypothetical movesets for their favourite characters. Those people who don't just care about Smash as a laundry list of gaming characters, but a love letter converted into a platform fighter. They don't just watch that trailer solely because they want to see a model of the character beat up other characters on screen, they want to see the subtle nuances and details that either reference their origins or will impact the way they play. The characters who get this section of the fanbase excited should, in my view, be the ones really worth discussing when addressing the impact a character has, not the characters designed to appeal primarily to the first section. Characters that appeal primarily to the first camp may get more eyes, but characters that appeal primarily to the second camp tend to get more mileage with each view they get.

A lot of the people in the second camp are, well, Nintendo fans. They grew up with Smash Bros because "I like x from this game and I like y from this other game, and I get to make them fight in this new game". Likewise, that leads to a lot of people who are very much into Smash also being very much into other Nintendo franchises. As such, many Nintendo characters can get a lot of mileage in the core community that may not be seen in mainstream, general discussion of Smash Bros on general gaming forums like Resetera or /v/. Taking this back to the Bandana Waddle Dee vs. Dante example, there's no question that, in a vacuum, Dante would be a more popular choice for a gaming crossover than Bandana Waddle Dee. However, the average Kirby fan is more likely to get something substantial out of Bandana Waddle Dee being Smash than the average DMC fan is to get something substantial out of Dante in Smash just because of the demographics of the fanbase. The average Kirby fan probably grew up on Nintendo consoles and other franchises, so who gets into Smash period probably has a lot more barring on them. The average DMC fan, who may play Smash, but could just as likely be a playstation diehard who grew up on the original PS2 trilogy and never really played Smash in depth. To them, Dante's inclusion is little more than a passing "huh, neat". I'd instead argue that Dante's inclusion in Marvel 3 was more of his big crossover moment, seeing how DMC fans (and Capcom fans in general) tend to overlap with being Vs. fans more than Smash fans.

That's not to say Dante doesn't have legitimate fans who care about Smash or he's less of a worthwhile character than Bandana Waddle Dee or he wouldn't be fun or any of that. It's just the idea that Dante would be popular than Bandana Waddle Dee in becoming a Smash character may not necessarily be true. Context can often matter and what's true in the abstract may not translate perfectly. But that's just one facet of why a character could get into Smash, even if you were to cede that point, you can still construct a convincing case for Dante using other information such as his recent Switch releases and Capcom being eager to give Nintendo stuff for Smash.

What I'm not a huge fan of, admittedly, is the latter part of the post where you claim that people are arguing in favour of Nintendo characters just because they believe they're objectively superior and are scared of a third party boogeyman. Either you misread the previous posts or are deliberately strawmanning, because no one is trying to argue the first point. No one here really thinks Nintendo > non-Nintendo (or, at least, no one who's posted so far). People are instead arguing that certain Nintendo characters have unforeseen merits that have led to many people in the fanbase overlooking them. That's not to say they're better than third parties or anything like that, multiple characters can have merits while also being on equal ground. Likewise, skeptism =/= fear. When people are arguing that certain third parties may not be as likely as it initially seems, they aren't saying "This character is bad and doesn't deserve to get into Smash because...", they're saying "I think people are somewhat overestimating how likely this character is because...". Many people are actually open to the ideas presented, they just don't see it happening for one reason or another. It's like saying "Anyone who argues against first parties are just lying to themselves to make long-shot third parties seem more possible", it's ridiculous and obviously false.

If I can be completely blunt, you're doing exactly what you decried against in this very post, you're ignoring or misrepresenting points from the other side in favour of clinging to the position you came in with. No one's attempting to argue their wants as things that are likely to happen. Find one post where someone says "well, I really want them, so they're going to happen". Likewise, no one has attempted to argue that there's absolutely a 0% chance that Fighter's Pass #2 could be mostly third parties, most other posts against that have merely suggested a possible alternative. It's extremely rare that someone speaks in absolutes in terms of Smash speculation, so it's not every post has to be deliberately outlined "with this may or may not happen but...". Likewise, even if someone wanted to argue that Fighter's Pass #2 was going to be completely different from the first, it's fine as long as they at least outline their logic for doing so. Everyone has provided some measure of arguments, flawed or not, that backs up their argument somewhat. If you disagree with it, great! Make a post rebuffing their reasoning and start a dialogue. Demonstrate where the flaw in their reasoning is. Everyone in the thread benefits from sharing knowledge, ideas, and rationale. What people in the thread don't benefit from are posts that try to strawman and prescribe motives to discredit others when you disagree with what they're saying.

I feel as though my direction was misconstrued, which is admittedly on me for not better directing the comment.

When I wrote this yesterday, it was in the center of thoughts based on much of the buildup of conversation mainly surrounding the 1st party pass idea, which kinda sorta devolved into a discussion of Nintendo vs. 3rd party characters. It was never just one comment I was responding to. However, based on the timing of the comment you quoted, it very likely seemed like a response to one comment on the page. At least, that's my guess of the misunderstanding, and again, I should have probably noted that in the original comment.

That said, I'm glad we find agreement in a few things, though I feel I should clarify again. Certainly, there are folks who are open to different ideas when it comes to 1st and 3rd party picks. There are folks who are able to refute ideas with tangible ideas or evidence. I appreciate these types of posts, especially considering you yourself are one of those people. The exchange of ideas is good, and I have to say that threads like this one has contributed to why I have tried so many different games.

However, there are still sentiments of sharing certain evidence based conclusions (circumstantial or otherwise) that are refuted by, "well, anything can happen, so I don't buy it/it doesn't mean it will happen"...which, isn't actual reasoning. That doesn't refute it. Sure, folks can have a preference. But if there is a logical conclusion that information can bring us to, a response to actually refute it is preferred, though that doesn't always happen.

Admittedly, I spent a crazy amount of time throughout the evening drafting a different response, but then another comment came up, and then another one, and then another, and in some forms the exchanges just got hard to follow and seemingly slanted in a direction that wasn't seemingly supported.

I digress. I don't want to bring stuff from yesterday into today for too long, so I'll leave it at that. I appreciate that you took the time to read my post and give a response in usual fashion.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Weren't we literally debating the aspect of Paper Mario in Smash just yesterday? Imagine if he actually gets in now, lol

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I mean, they did say that the current Paper Mario was the direction they were going in for the RPG's. Looks like it didn't change.

Is Bowser the new "partner" like Kersti was? That's kind of neat, actually.

It kinda looks like Mario has a bunch of different party members this time. Though there is no footage of them doing anything in battle...

It looks like there's going to be quite a bit more strategy in this new "ring based battle system", but if they still want to cling on to the "battle with only 1-use items and get no reward for doing so" style of play, it's still gonna be kinda garbage.

Weren't we literally debating the aspect of Paper Mario in Smash just yesterday? Imagine if he actually gets in now, lol

Them unsettling origami arms are coming for us...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It kinda looks like Mario has a bunch of different party members this time. Though there is no footage of them doing anything in battle...

It looks like there's going to be quite a bit more strategy in this new "ring based battle system", but if they still want to cling on to the "battle with only 1-use items and get no reward for doing so" style of play, it's still gonna be kinda garbage.

Color Splash, where you can level up through battle? It's minor, but yes, battles matter in that game. The only game where battles didn't level you up was SS alone. And they fixed that is CS.

Though I guess you more mean how pointless the resource system was, not whether you got level ups properly? The thing is, the rpg's did not generally reward you as is for using your resources. Much of the time they didn't always drop an item, so they were one-use anyway. So I'm not sure how much changed here. You'll have to elaborate further, cause the one-use item system was always there.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

It kinda looks like Mario has a bunch of different party members this time. Though there is no footage of them doing anything in battle...

It looks like there's going to be quite a bit more strategy in this new "ring based battle system", but if they still want to cling on to the "battle with only 1-use items and get no reward for doing so" style of play, it's still gonna be kinda garbage.


Them unsettling origami arms are coming for us...

Guess this is why ARMS is making a comeback: they’re gonna patch in Paper Mario

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Paper Mario would be cool, has always been a low-key want of mine.

He'd be totally different from Mario and Dr. Mario...but it's kinda "oof" to me to have 3 Link's and 3 Mario's in the same game.

But eh. At least the new game looks excellent compared to previous entries. Hype is real!

 

[Michael the Spikester]

In a twist, its revealed that the ARMS character to be revealed next month was actually Paper Mario with his stretchy Origami arms all along.

Watch Paper Mario appear as an guest character in an ARMS 2 announcement.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

So I kinda expect future announcements, including smash ones, to be shadowdropped

reason being; we got the new Paper Mario shadowdropped

The Paper Mario series arrives on #NintendoSwitch with an origami twist! What evil paper shenanigans does the Origami King have planned? Find out when #PaperMario: The Origami King releases on 7/17!https://t.co/Zw9epBSIZp pic.twitter.com/4fUGYDcGjG

— Nintendo of America (@NintendoAmerica) May 14, 2020

oh hey, it drops on my birthday

 

[YoshiandToad]

HUH. It looks like Paper Mario is using partners again.

Granted, they're generic species members, but there's some footage of the battle style where you seem to scroll past Toad to select Mario.

Toad, Goomba, Shy Guy, Spike, Koopa Troopa, Hammer Bros, Bob-Omb and Bowser Jr appear to be partners on the splash page.

 

[PeridotGX]

sorry paper mario, but there's only one 2D character that needs to be added

 

[Mr. Robotto]

I'm guessing they're starting now with shadowdropping titles that should've been revealed at E3. They're probably going to spread those reveals and announcements throughout the rest of May. Best to keep a close eye to that Twitter page from now on.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Btw four weeks to go until the ARMS rep reveal and maybe FP7.

I suspect he/she will be revealed on the 11th and release on the 16th in commemoration of the ARMS 3rd year anniversary.

Either that or the ARMS rep is revealed and released on the 16th.

 

[osby]

sorry paper mario, but there's only one 2D character that needs to be added
View attachment 271720

Wait, we need more than one?

Jokes aside, Mr. Game & Watch actually uses a 3D model that looks like 2D. I wonder if they can pull off the same thing with a character that isn't just a silhouette.

 

[TriggerX]

Paper Mario would be cool, has always been a low-key want of mine.

He'd be totally different from Mario and Dr. Mario...but it's kinda "oof" to me to have 3 Link's and 3 Mario's in the same game.

But eh. At least the new game looks excellent compared to previous entries. Hype is real!

Almost seems like a Dragon ball Fighters type situation with 5+ Gokus and Vegetas. Given that Mario is the face of the company, I wouldn’t say it’s out the realm of possibilities to throw another Mario in the mix. Kind of his year of celebration as well so I guess it makes some sense.

Cant say I see Geno, Paper Mario, and Waluigi coming in the same pass together though. I do feel there is gotta be some limit as to how many dlc Mario related characters we receive.

 

[Mr. Robotto]

I've seen some people get worried about the battle system. Here's a look at it. I'm not familiar to the Paper Mario series myself, so you guys will have to see for yourselves. But I don't think it's the classic system. Looks weird.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

HUH. It looks like Paper Mario is using partners again.

Granted, they're generic species members, but there's some footage of the battle style where you seem to scroll past Toad to select Mario.

Toad, Goomba, Shy Guy, Spike, Koopa Troopa, Hammer Bros, Bob-Omb and Bowser Jr appear to be partners on the splash page.

Really wish they could give them unique costumes and names and personalities like in the first two games.

 

[RouffWestie]

Paper Mario is now officially a viable guest candidate for ARMS 2.

 

[Staarih]

Paper Mario is now officially a viable guest candidate for ARMS 2.

Indeed.
or Paper Mario as the ARMS rep in Smash.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Watch that the ARMS rep gets revealed along with Paper Mario as FP7 as a means of also promoting this new game basing the moveset in this one.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Paper Mario is now officially a viable guest candidate for ARMS 2.

I still want Dhalsim in there too. He'd be one of the most awesome guests. You could also throw in Sonic the Werehog as is. Some joke about Waluigi, but the new Paper Mario actually does fit. That's at least 3 unique guest options.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Color Splash, where you can level up through battle? It's minor, but yes, battles matter in that game. The only game where battles didn't level you up was SS alone. And they fixed that is CS.

Though I guess you more mean how pointless the resource system was, not whether you got level ups properly? The thing is, the rpg's did not generally reward you as is for using your resources. Much of the time they didn't always drop an item, so they were one-use anyway. So I'm not sure how much changed here. You'll have to elaborate further, cause the one-use item system was always there.

My issue with the paint upgrades is that you don't really need them, and when you do get it fully upgraded, you don't even get that.

My issue with battling exclusively with 1-use items, is that every single attack is a depletion of resources. You actively don't want to get into fights with this in mind, and it's not like a normal RPG where you can fall back on your regular attacks if you run out of MP or want to make it last. Combine this with coins being super abundant in the overworld (why waste your items when you can just pay attention and press a button on unpainted objects for cash), paint upgrades not being all that helpful (and maxes out much quicker than any other leveling system), and the extra paint being just a consolation prize (you used paint to win, you're just getting some of it back. You also get way more by hitting things with the hammer) and non-required battles are just waste of your time. And the boss battles just make you come in with the right "Thing" or kill yourself so you can go get the right "Thing".

I've seen some people get worried about the battle system. Here's a look at it. I'm not familiar to the Paper Mario series myself, so you guys will have to see for yourselves. But I don't think it's the classic system. Looks weird.

According to the comment section, there seems to be a distinction between weapons and items here. If that is the case, then this could be really fun.

I can almost guarantee you I'll be bad at it though.

 

[Kotor]

Paper Mario is obviously the ARMS rep. Those people who thought it'd be the ARMS 2 protagonist had the right idea. /s

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Paper Mario is now officially a viable guest candidate for ARMS 2.

Paper Mario
Lanky Kong
Dhalsim
Bravoman
Mr Fantastic
Elastigirl

They could have a thing going there

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

My issue with the paint upgrades is that you don't really need them, and when you do get it fully upgraded, you don't even get that.

It doesn't really change that it's a traditional level up system. It's just mediocre in the end. Which is my point. That's all I really wanted when it comes down to it, battling to gain experience to level up. Color Splash definitely delivers in that regard.

My issue with battling exclusively with 1-use items, is that every single attack is a depletion of resources. You actively don't want to get into fights with this in mind, and it's not like a normal RPG where you can fall back on your regular attacks if you run out of MP or something. Combine this with coins being super abundant in the overworld, paint upgrades not being all that helpful (and maxes out much quicker than any other leveling system), and the extra paint being just a consolation prize (you used paint to win, you're just getting some of it back) and non-required battles are just waste of your time. And the boss battles just make you come in with the right "Thing" or kill yourself so you can go get the right "Thing".

Well, the boss battle system is jank, yeah. But I felt the battle system in CS was extremely good compared to SS. A massive improvement.

I feel the ability to level up inherently always makes battling actually worthwhile to do. But yeah, the issue is everything is consumable too. I won't deny that. It does appear this game fixes that slight oversight too. It also appears to have partners, but done differently in some way. It's not clear how they exactly work(possibly you use them for a single attack or something?). But it already looks like it's already improving the game anyway. Plus, Bowser's on your side again. I like that~

The thing is with battle systems is that some things can easily level up faster than others. That's fairly normal. CS just... doesn't have another thing to level up, so it doesn't feel like it does enough. Which makes sense. I play Quest 64 a lot, where you have effectively 8 things to level up; 4 separate elements, HP, MP, Def, and Agi. Only HP, Def, and sometimes maybe 1 or 2 elements go up at a reasonable rate. But it has awful writing(though at least unique NPC's), a very repetitive battle system with no monetary(money, for those not aware) system, and while you get way more tangible level ups, every boss is just a damage sponge type. There's no real strategy against a boss besides how to maybe dodge some attacks. They don't have a unique pattern, nor status effects. I felt that SS/CS at least requires some thought and strategy even then, even if sometimes it's trial and error. I feel that's still an important factor in the end. Don't get me wrong, I liked Quest 64 more than the other two by all means, but to me, strategy is about how to use your resources smartly, even if you have to deplete them. CS at least does give you actual rewards. SS... doesn't really.

 

[SKX31]

My issue with the paint upgrades is that you don't really need them, and when you do get it fully upgraded, you don't even get that.

My issue with battling exclusively with 1-use items, is that every single attack is a depletion of resources. You actively don't want to get into fights with this in mind, and it's not like a normal RPG where you can fall back on your regular attacks if you run out of MP or something. Combine this with coins being super abundant in the overworld (why waste your items when you can just pay attention and press a button on unpainted objects for cash), paint upgrades not being all that helpful (and maxes out much quicker than any other leveling system), and the extra paint being just a consolation prize (you used paint to win, you're just getting some of it back) and non-required battles are just waste of your time. And the boss battles just make you come in with the right "Thing" or kill yourself so you can go get the right "Thing".


According to the comment section, there seems to be a distinction between weapons and items here. If that is the case, then this could be really fun.

I can almost guarantee you I'll be bad at it though.

It doesn't really change that it's a traditional level up system. It's just mediocre in the end. Which is my point. That's all I really wanted when it comes down to it, battling to gain experience to level up. Color Splash definitely delivers in that regard.


Well, the boss battle system is jank, yeah. But I felt the battle system in CS was extremely good compared to SS. A massive improvement.

I feel the ability to level up inherently always makes battling actually worthwhile to do. But yeah, the issue is everything is consumable too. I won't deny that. It does appear this game fixes that slight oversight too. It also appears to have partners, but done differently in some way. It's not clear how they exactly work(possibly you use them for a single attack or something?). But it already looks like it's already improving the game anyway. Plus, Bowser's on your side again. I like that~

The thing is with battle systems is that some things can easily level up faster than others. That's fairly normal. CS just... doesn't have another thing to level up, so it doesn't feel like it does enough. Which makes sense. I play Quest 64 a lot, where you have effectively 8 things to level up; 4 separate elements, HP, MP, Def, and Agi. Only HP, Def, and sometimes maybe 1 or 2 elements go up at a reasonable rate. But it has awful writing(though at least unique NPC's), a very repetitive battle system with no monetary(money, for those not aware) system, and while you get way more tangible level ups, every boss is just a damage sponge type. There's no real strategy against a boss besides how to maybe dodge some attacks. They don't have a unique pattern, nor status effects. I felt that SS/CS at least requires some thought and strategy even then, even if sometimes it's trial and error. I feel that's still an important factor in the end. Don't get me wrong, I liked Quest 64 more than the other two by all means, but to me, strategy is about how to use your resources smartly, even if you have to deplete them. CS at least does give you actual rewards. SS... doesn't really.

I think this interview with Tanabe back in 2016 does explain a lot:

Why did you guys remove the leveling up system from the series?
Color Splash is an action adventure game with puzzle-solving at its core. So, it is true that we did not use the typical RPG system where the player character grows stronger by collecting experience points and upping various parameters of the player character. This is because the concept of levels does not directly relate to puzzle-solving. However, there is actually a leveling system included in this title. We made it so that your maximum paint capacity will gradually increase if you collect a certain amount of the hammer-shaped items that drop when you defeat an enemy. This is a meaningful growth element in this title since painting is involved in both battle and puzzle-solving.

Problem with Tanabe's logic is: this shift in genres wasn't elaborated upon until Color Splash released AFAIK (under this definition Sticker Star's also an action adventure / puzzle game, and Nintendo commited to this shift in the first place). And the first three Paper Mario games were RPGs. Any sudden genre shifts would be heavily debated - but the lack of communication around SS (IIRC) meant that the issue took center stage. And by the time of the interview, CS had suffered by association.

I'm not commenting about the games' respective quality because I haven't played either. Still, I'm not interested in SS's concept at all, and feel like CS - while it looks better - has leftover issues in its concept. (Like the overabundance of Toads)

And as far as Origami King, it seems to be taking steps in the right direction. Not as hyped about it as lets say a hyptheoretical TYD 2 (and yes, things can go wrong), but I'm not complaining.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Paper Mario
Lanky Kong
Dhalsim
Bravoman
Mr Fantastic
Elastigirl

They could have a thing going there

Well if your including non video game characters add Luffy, Plastic Man, and Jake the Dog.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Paper Mario is obviously the ARMS rep. Those people who thought it'd be the ARMS 2 protagonist had the right idea. /s
View attachment 271724

"You see, Paper Mario (Paper Mario: The Origami King) was not a spirit, therefore..."

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Well if your including non video game characters add Luffy, Plastic Man, and Jake the Dog.

Don't forget Elongated Man and Mr Tickle.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I think this interview with Tanabe back in 2016 does explain a lot:



Problem with Tanabe's logic is: this shift in genres wasn't elaborated upon until Color Splash released AFAIK (under this definition Sticker Star's also an action adventure / puzzle game, and Nintendo commited to this shift in the first place. And the first three Paper Mario games were RPGs. Any sudden genre shifts would be heavily debated - but the lack of communication around SS (IIRC) meant that the issue took center stage. And by the time of the interview, CS had suffered by association.

I'm not commenting about the games' respective quality because I haven't played either.

And as far as Origami King, it seems to be taking steps in the right direction. Not as hyped about it as lets say a hyptheoretical TYD 2 (and yes, things can go wrong), but I'm not complaining.

Now that you mention it, Origami King is apparently being billed as an Action-Adventure game too.

 

[Schnee117]

Paper Mario
Lanky Kong
Dhalsim
Bravoman
Mr Fantastic
Elastigirl

They could have a thing going there

Needs more Kamala Khan and Super Skrull

 

[I.D.]

Now that you mention it, Origami King is apparently being billed as an Action-Adventure game too.

I'm looking at the eshop right now and it's classified as an RPG.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Watch that the ARMS rep gets revealed along with Paper Mario as FP7 as a means of also promoting this new game basing the moveset in this one.

Hopefully they don't focus to hard on The Origami King stuff. Or rather, regardless of how good that game is, the other entries shouldn't be ignored entirely.

Well...you can ignore Sticker Star. Color Splash's Thing Cards are at least a joy to watch, so they can be the Final Smash or something.

The thing is with battle systems is that some things can easily level up faster than others. That's fairly normal. CS just... doesn't have another thing to level up, so it doesn't feel like it does enough. Which makes sense. I play Quest 64 a lot, where you have effectively 8 things to level up; 4 separate elements, HP, MP, Def, and Agi. Only HP, Def, and sometimes maybe 1 or 2 elements go up at a reasonable rate. But it has awful writing(though at least unique NPC's), a very repetitive battle system with no monetary(money, for those not aware) system, and while you get way more tangible level ups, every boss is just a damage sponge type. There's no real strategy against a boss besides how to maybe dodge some attacks. They don't have a unique pattern, nor status effects. I felt that SS/CS at least requires some thought and strategy even then, even if sometimes it's trial and error. I feel that's still an important factor in the end. Don't get me wrong, I liked Quest 64 more than the other two by all means, but to me, strategy is about how to use your resources smartly, even if you have to deplete them. CS at least does give you actual rewards. SS... doesn't really.

Well I'd definitely say that Paper Mario: Color Splash was leagues better than Paper Mario Sticker Star, but I wouldn't say that it was good either. I was constantly frustrated throughout my entire play sessions with it, and it wasn't just the (in my opinion, unfun) battle system that irritated me. It was also the stupid things like the collectathons and meat minigames and Sniffit or Whiffit that block your progress until you look up how to do them.

Plus, Bowser's on your side again. I like that~

Same. Especially if it means he gets freaking dialogue again. Bowser's never not a great character when given a speaking role.

Problem with Tanabe's logic is: this shift in genres wasn't elaborated upon until Color Splash released AFAIK (under this definition Sticker Star's also an action adventure / puzzle game, and Nintendo commited to this shift in the first place. And the first three Paper Mario games were RPGs. Any sudden genre shifts would be heavily debated - but the lack of communication around SS (IIRC) meant that the issue took center stage. And by the time of the interview, CS had suffered by association.

Wait what? Sticker Star and Color Splash are many things but a puzzle game is not one of them. And no, self explanatory overworld mechanics, and roadblocks don't count as puzzles.

Don't forget Elongated Man and Mr Tickle.

Do...Do I want to know?

 

[PeridotGX]

Needs more Kamala Khan and Super Skrull

and spinel. her gimmick is that Pink Diamond can abandon her mid match.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Wait what? Sticker Star and Color Splash are many things but a puzzle game is not one of them. And no, self explanatory overworld mechanics, and roadblocks don't count as puzzles.

Um, yes, they kind of do? Directly manipulating environment to get things and finding exactly where to place them to open a path is a type of puzzle. It's just a very shallow form of a jigsaw puzzle, essentially. This has been done for ages. Find a bunch of scattered items and put them in the right hole? That's one of the most basic puzzles as is.

It's a weak type of puzzle, but let's be real, it's a pretty big part of SS and CS's actual gameplay. So it makes sense why they call it a puzzle-solving game. The puzzle-solving is just... bad, though. It's a massive form of trial and error.

The Thing Cards are cool, but not as a puzzle in itself.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

and spinel. her gimmick is that Pink Diamond can abandon her mid match.

And then she'll stay in place for the rest of the match. You won't be able to damage her or grab her or anything. She just stands there...menacingly.

Or falls to her death. Either one.

 

[ZelDan]

Even just looking at the thumbnail of the video revealing the new Paper Mario game gave off Sticker Star/Color Splash vibes to me. Guess it's good that I had my expectations in check from the beginning lol.

But yeah can't say I'm interested in it. Even if the battle system is improved from SS (and CS? never played it so can't really comment on that one), it still has the problem that it seems allergic to wanting to create original characters and just drown us in a sea of toads. I'd say "atleast bowser doesn't seem to be a villain" but they could still find a way to twist things to make him a villain, so *shrug*

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Do...Do I want to know?

Elongated Man is DC's rippoff of Plastic Man, created because they forgot that they already owned Plastic Man and Mr. Tickle is the first Mr. Men book.