Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[DarthEnderX]

You can save your bizarre EVO reveal theories for this year. Smash Ultimate got the boot.

I love that the 4 new additions are all games that showcase great rollback netcode.

Hopefully, the other game devs will see how **** their games run in comparison and finally realize they need to do something.

 

[ZelDan]

High key would trade FP2 for functional online with proper Netcode, better lobbies, WiFi/Ethernet indicators and all that

Don't forget about having Squad Strike being available online. The lack of online Squad Strike is one of my biggest disappointments with Ultimate tbh.

 

[Garteam]

I mean no disrespect here: Folks need to come to the understanding that while Nintendo does have good games in the industry, they do not hold a monopoly over quality content, nor do they have a monopoly on stellar "hype" additions for Smash, especially when their remaining characters are supporting cast members or series that have no support from Nintendo themselves.

Bandanna Waddle Dee in terms of "importance" is like Nero to Dante. If you're looking for "hype", then logically you would add Dante, or better yet why not add Resident Evil? Wouldn't Resident Evil, one of the largest franchises in media, get a playable character because it's huge and makes huge money?

Oh wait, it was spirited. (it still makes me cry, everytime).

For real. No progress will be made in this thread until folks understand that Nintendo picks are not superior to 3rd party picks just based on the premise that they are "Nintendo". I know I haven't made the claim that 3rd parties are objectively better, but it seems like folks are making this the hill they want to die on or that there's some 3rd party boogeyman out to get their 1st parties.

Objectively, there are characters that are not owned by Nintendo, that can bring things to Smash that Nintendo characters can't. Objectively, non-Nintendo companies have quality content, characters, IP, music, and other materials that have performed better or would/could generate "more hype" than side characters from Nintendo franchises among the gaming industry and fandoms.
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We are at a point where folks literally do not read what others are saying and look foolish because they do not change their opinions or talking points based on new information.

One group is arguing what they think is likely. The other says what they want. Those are two different things. Clearly, there is a misunderstanding between these two conversations. I'm just gonna spell it out the best way I can: Desperately wanting characters DOES NOT make that character more likely or impervious to information that makes them appear to be unlikely.

Bethesda said they haven't been contacted for Doom Slayer. You're more than welcome to want him, but that makes him seem less likely.

Most DLC picks have been 3rd party, and the 1st party picks have mainly been promotional in nature. Precedent suggests this could continue. Instead of saying, "Yes, that's possible" folks absolutely, positively deny it being possible. It's outrageous.

There are picks I would love to see. But I do my best to separate that from what I see in front of me. Sure, I want Dante. If a report came out that Dante was more or less off the table, I would assume it was over! That's just how it works.

I don't know, my dudes. This is so along "party lines" that it really takes some of the fun out of it sometimes.

I agree that Nintendo doesn't have a monopoly on what's quality and "hype" and I think that's a good point to make, but the opposite is also true. It often feels like "third party" is conflated with "hype, exciting, good choice" in the community, while "first party" is conflated with "boring, safe, chosen by committee". There's Nintendo characters that could be great in Smash, Nintendo characters that are probably better off not in Smash, third parties who would be awesome in Smash, and third parties who should stay as far away as possible from Smash. Variety is the spice of life and it seems that (at least from my view) most of the thread seems to agree that both extremes are bad. Very few people want a first party only pass, while equally as few people want a third party only pass. In fact, I mostly see the idea of Nintendo or Third Party exclusivity brought up when one side is trying to straw man the other. A balance seems to be agreed upon as the way to go.

Where I somewhat disagree is your Bandana Waddle Dee vs. Dante example. I think a lot of people tend to think about the most "hype" choice for a Smash game by who can get the most people screaming at their hypothetical trailer, but that's a poor way to operationalize that. Smash, for better or for worse, has gained a reputation as "Gaming's Hall of Fame". For a lot of people who either play Smash very casually (like, played Ultimate for the first month, put it down, and maybe pick it back up once a year when they have friends over) or don't play Smash at all, advocating for a character in Smash is less about getting them in a platform fighter and more about getting them in the hall of fame. They'll watch the trailer, discuss it a little online, forget about it a week later, and maybe will download the character and play for an hour one afternoon.

Contrast this with people who play Smash frequently with friends, online, or at tournaments, pour over every statement Sakurai said to figure out exactly how the game is made and how he adds characters, and spend hours making hypothetical movesets for their favourite characters. Those people who don't just care about Smash as a laundry list of gaming characters, but a love letter converted into a platform fighter. They don't just watch that trailer solely because they want to see a model of the character beat up other characters on screen, they want to see the subtle nuances and details that either reference their origins or will impact the way they play. The characters who get this section of the fanbase excited should, in my view, be the ones really worth discussing when addressing the impact a character has, not the characters designed to appeal primarily to the first section. Characters that appeal primarily to the first camp may get more eyes, but characters that appeal primarily to the second camp tend to get more mileage with each view they get.

A lot of the people in the second camp are, well, Nintendo fans. They grew up with Smash Bros because "I like x from this game and I like y from this other game, and I get to make them fight in this new game". Likewise, that leads to a lot of people who are very much into Smash also being very much into other Nintendo franchises. As such, many Nintendo characters can get a lot of mileage in the core community that may not be seen in mainstream, general discussion of Smash Bros on general gaming forums like Resetera or /v/. Taking this back to the Bandana Waddle Dee vs. Dante example, there's no question that, in a vacuum, Dante would be a more popular choice for a gaming crossover than Bandana Waddle Dee. However, the average Kirby fan is more likely to get something substantial out of Bandana Waddle Dee being Smash than the average DMC fan is to get something substantial out of Dante in Smash just because of the demographics of the fanbase. The average Kirby fan probably grew up on Nintendo consoles and other franchises, so who gets into Smash period probably has a lot more barring on them. The average DMC fan, who may play Smash, but could just as likely be a playstation diehard who grew up on the original PS2 trilogy and never really played Smash in depth. To them, Dante's inclusion is little more than a passing "huh, neat". I'd instead argue that Dante's inclusion in Marvel 3 was more of his big crossover moment, seeing how DMC fans (and Capcom fans in general) tend to overlap with being Vs. fans more than Smash fans.

That's not to say Dante doesn't have legitimate fans who care about Smash or he's less of a worthwhile character than Bandana Waddle Dee or he wouldn't be fun or any of that. It's just the idea that Dante would be popular than Bandana Waddle Dee in becoming a Smash character may not necessarily be true. Context can often matter and what's true in the abstract may not translate perfectly. But that's just one facet of why a character could get into Smash, even if you were to cede that point, you can still construct a convincing case for Dante using other information such as his recent Switch releases and Capcom being eager to give Nintendo stuff for Smash.

What I'm not a huge fan of, admittedly, is the latter part of the post where you claim that people are arguing in favour of Nintendo characters just because they believe they're objectively superior and are scared of a third party boogeyman. Either you misread the previous posts or are deliberately strawmanning, because no one is trying to argue the first point. No one here really thinks Nintendo > non-Nintendo (or, at least, no one who's posted so far). People are instead arguing that certain Nintendo characters have unforeseen merits that have led to many people in the fanbase overlooking them. That's not to say they're better than third parties or anything like that, multiple characters can have merits while also being on equal ground. Likewise, skeptism =/= fear. When people are arguing that certain third parties may not be as likely as it initially seems, they aren't saying "This character is bad and doesn't deserve to get into Smash because...", they're saying "I think people are somewhat overestimating how likely this character is because...". Many people are actually open to the ideas presented, they just don't see it happening for one reason or another. It's like saying "Anyone who argues against first parties are just lying to themselves to make long-shot third parties seem more possible", it's ridiculous and obviously false.

If I can be completely blunt, you're doing exactly what you decried against in this very post, you're ignoring or misrepresenting points from the other side in favour of clinging to the position you came in with. No one's attempting to argue their wants as things that are likely to happen. Find one post where someone says "well, I really want them, so they're going to happen". Likewise, no one has attempted to argue that there's absolutely a 0% chance that Fighter's Pass #2 could be mostly third parties, most other posts against that have merely suggested a possible alternative. It's extremely rare that someone speaks in absolutes in terms of Smash speculation, so it's not every post has to be deliberately outlined "with this may or may not happen but...". Likewise, even if someone wanted to argue that Fighter's Pass #2 was going to be completely different from the first, it's fine as long as they at least outline their logic for doing so. Everyone has provided some measure of arguments, flawed or not, that backs up their argument somewhat. If you disagree with it, great! Make a post rebuffing their reasoning and start a dialogue. Demonstrate where the flaw in their reasoning is. Everyone in the thread benefits from sharing knowledge, ideas, and rationale. What people in the thread don't benefit from are posts that try to strawman and prescribe motives to discredit others when you disagree with what they're saying.

 

[Arcanir]

But why? The majority of Smash's remixes are beautiful, I'm not gonna deny that, but sometimes it's fun just being able to duke it out to the original tune. A lot of original tracks from their source games were added unaltered even as far back in Brawl, and they sounded no less fantastic for it.

Agreed, if anything I'd like to see them do more tips since there's a lot of excellent tracks that would be excellent to have in Smash. Remixes are great, but I would still be just as happy to have songs like Uncontrollable, Vs. N Final, or vs. Cynthia in their original form.

Also, I know you're only here for a short time, but it's great to see you here Swamp Sensei .

 

[SpectreJordan]

I’ve been thinking about it because of Streets of Rage 4’s recent release & everyone’s been overlooking a Beat ‘Em Up rep.

It’s a classic genre from the arcade/NES/SNES era; which is an era of gaming that Sakurai’s always been keen on representing even recently with the likes of Terry.

The genre had a clear influence on Sakurai as seen with the Kirby series, which I’d say is just as much Beat ‘Em Up as it is platformer.

There’s a decent amount of characters to choose from too. Billy/Jimmy from Double Dragon, Haggar from Final Fight, Axel Stone from Streets of Rage or even Rash from Battletoads. I think all of these characters would naturally fit well into Smash.

It’d be such a “Sakurai pick” IMO, especially with his goal of having Smash Ultimate be a celebration of gaming history. It’d also be one of those picks that no one is asking for, but it still makes a lot of sense.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I’ve been thinking about it because of Streets of Rage 4’s recent release & everyone’s been overlooking a Beat ‘Em Up rep.

It’s a classic genre from the arcade/NES/SNES era; which is an era of gaming that Sakurai’s always been keen on representing even recently with the likes of Terry.

The genre had a clear influence on Sakurai as seen with the Kirby series, which I’d say is just as much Beat ‘Em Up as it is platformer.

There’s a decent amount of characters to choose from too. Billy/Jimmy from Double Dragon, Haggar from Final Fight, Axel Stone from Streets of Rage or even Rash from Battletoads. I think all of these characters would naturally fit well into Smash.

It’d be such a “Sakurai pick” IMO, especially with his goal of having Smash Ultimate be a celebration of gaming history. It’d also be one of those picks that no one is asking for, but it still makes a lot of sense.

It's gonna be Haggar who's Lariat special makes him gully invincible and ****s up everything at the cost of your own percent

 

[osby]

I don't have much to add but all I can say is it shouldn't be that hard to understand why a pass with almost nothing but additions to base game series isn't as exciting to some people as four new franchises plus a brand new game.

 

[---]

I mean no disrespect here: Folks need to come to the understanding that while Nintendo does have good games in the industry, they do not hold a monopoly over quality content, nor do they have a monopoly on stellar "hype" additions for Smash, especially when their remaining characters are supporting cast members or series that have no support from Nintendo themselves.

Bandanna Waddle Dee in terms of "importance" is like Nero to Dante. If you're looking for "hype", then logically you would add Dante, or better yet why not add Resident Evil? Wouldn't Resident Evil, one of the largest franchises in media, get a playable character because it's huge and makes huge money?

Oh wait, it was spirited. (it still makes me cry, everytime).

For real. No progress will be made in this thread until folks understand that Nintendo picks are not superior to 3rd party picks just based on the premise that they are "Nintendo". I know I haven't made the claim that 3rd parties are objectively better, but it seems like folks are making this the hill they want to die on or that there's some 3rd party boogeyman out to get their 1st parties.

Objectively, there are characters that are not owned by Nintendo, that can bring things to Smash that Nintendo characters can't. Objectively, non-Nintendo companies have quality content, characters, IP, music, and other materials that have performed better or would/could generate "more hype" than side characters from Nintendo franchises among the gaming industry and fandoms.
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We are at a point where folks literally do not read what others are saying and look foolish because they do not change their opinions or talking points based on new information.

One group is arguing what they think is likely. The other says what they want. Those are two different things. Clearly, there is a misunderstanding between these two conversations. I'm just gonna spell it out the best way I can: Desperately wanting characters DOES NOT make that character more likely or impervious to information that makes them appear to be unlikely.

Bethesda said they haven't been contacted for Doom Slayer. You're more than welcome to want him, but that makes him seem less likely.

Most DLC picks have been 3rd party, and the 1st party picks have mainly been promotional in nature. Precedent suggests this could continue. Instead of saying, "Yes, that's possible" folks absolutely, positively deny it being possible. It's outrageous.

There are picks I would love to see. But I do my best to separate that from what I see in front of me. Sure, I want Dante. If a report came out that Dante was more or less off the table, I would assume it was over! That's just how it works.

I don't know, my dudes. This is so along "party lines" that it really takes some of the fun out of it sometimes.

If people are actively stating 1st Party reps are superior to 3rd Party reps and vice versa, we might as well close this thread as all hope is lost.

But yeah, too many take things as at face value rather than the lens of speculation/educated guessing. There are no rules but are you seriously going to tell me that most would sooner bet on a 3rd Party over a 1st Party rep? Or the chance of another oddball like Piranha Plant over a more specific leading character? How about a character that's already an Assist Trophy or Spirit getting promoted? It all could happen for sure, but you shouldn't take other's doubts as immediate put downs. This is the "speculation" thread after all. It's right in the title.

Hype is also technically subjective, though in the macro not as much kinda sorta.

I’ve been thinking about it because of Streets of Rage 4’s recent release & everyone’s been overlooking a Beat ‘Em Up rep.

It’s a classic genre from the arcade/NES/SNES era; which is an era of gaming that Sakurai’s always been keen on representing even recently with the likes of Terry.

The genre had a clear influence on Sakurai as seen with the Kirby series, which I’d say is just as much Beat ‘Em Up as it is platformer.

There’s a decent amount of characters to choose from too. Billy/Jimmy from Double Dragon, Haggar from Final Fight, Axel Stone from Streets of Rage or even Rash from Battletoads. I think all of these characters would naturally fit well into Smash.

It’d be such a “Sakurai pick” IMO, especially with his goal of having Smash Ultimate be a celebration of gaming history. It’d also be one of those picks that no one is asking for, but it still makes a lot of sense.

Daily reminder that Ryu Hayabusa is also technically a Beat 'Em Up rep.

 

[Spongeboob]

Let's put skepticism and actual logic aside for a second and suppose Disney got a fighter in Smash Ultimate. What do you think are the odds of said fighter NOT being Sora and/or from Kingdom Hearts? Would you want said fighter to be Sora/Kingdom Hearts, or would you prefer something different such as Club Penguin or the Monkey Island series?

 

[7NATOR]

Let's put skepticism and actual logic aside for a second and suppose Disney got a fighter in Smash Ultimate. What do you think are the odds of said fighter NOT being Sora and/or from Kingdom Hearts? Would you want said fighter to be Sora/Kingdom Hearts, or would you prefer something different such as Club Penguin or the Monkey Island series?

I forget Disney owns Club Pequin

Honestly if they go to Disney for a character that's not Sora, I rather they just add a character like Spider-Man, Hulk, Mickey Mouse, Deadpool, Darth Vader, Thanos.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Here's a question...

Will we ever get another retro character?

They used to come pretty frequently but Ultimate got none.

And by that, I don't mean just older characters. I mean characters who haven't been used in ages and are meant as neat callbacks.



These four, basically.

Are we past the point of retros? Are they not important anymore?

 

[Vintage Creep]

Here's a question...

Will we ever get another retro character?

They used to come pretty frequently but Ultimate got none.

And by that, I don't mean just older characters. I mean characters who haven't been used in ages and are meant as neat callbacks.



These four, basically.

Are we past the point of retros? Are they not important anymore?

I guess you could consider Simon Ultimate's pick for a retro. He's not Nintendo but he's heavily associated with it and since third parties were so relevant in Ultimate maybe Sakurai considered him this iteration's of a retro. But yes, I would have loved a Nintendo one-game kinda obscure retro pick this time as well. Doubt they're going to do it for DLC though, with the exception of Geno which has heavy request going for him.

But if you look at it, Simon is one of the biggest retro icons which was left out, Terry as well and he's also not very known by the casual community, K. Rool even could almost be considered retro at this point since his last big appearance was on the Nintendo 64, we got them Hero skins which are also definitely retro, I mean it's not like Sakurai didn't look at the past for his picks, only this time they have been mostly third party.

 

[Shroob]

I guess you could consider Simon Ultimate's pick for a retro. He's not Nintendo but he's heavily associated with it and since third parties were so relevant in Ultimate maybe Sakurai considered him this iteration's of a retro. But yes, I would have loved a Nintendo one-game kinda obscure retro pick this time as well. Doubt they're going to do it for DLC though, with the exception of Geno which has heavy request going for him.

But if you look at it, Simon is one of the biggest retro icons which was left out, Terry as well and he's also not very known by the casual community, K. Rool even could almost be considered retro at this point since his last big appearance was on the Nintendo 64, we got them Hero skins which are also definitely retro, I mean it's not like Sakurai didn't look at the past for his picks, only this time they have been mostly third party.

I really wouldn't consider Terry "Retro", when the first Fatal Fury game came out in 1991.

 

[AceAttorney9000]

Here's a question...

Will we ever get another retro character?

They used to come pretty frequently but Ultimate got none.

And by that, I don't mean just older characters. I mean characters who haven't been used in ages and are meant as neat callbacks.



These four, basically.

Are we past the point of retros? Are they not important anymore?

Depends. Maybe we might get another retro character as a potential "bonus DLC" character (and by "bonus DLC", I mean a completely standalone character that was made possible because the developers had the time and resources for it after completing the planned Fighters Pass 2 characters).

There's some possible choices like Bubbles (from Clu Clu Land), the Urban Champion, or the Excitebiker... though if they want a character that would work great by themselves and not have to bring anything with them, there's always a certain console mascot...

 

[Vintage Creep]

I really wouldn't consider Terry "Retro", when the first Fatal Fury game came out in 1991.

Literally almost 30 years and that's not retro? He's used still but come on, he's a retro character. We are at the point in which PS1/N64 is definitely considered retro gaming. The only difference from a character like Duck Hunt which is seven years older is that Terry appeared in other games later in time, but not considering him retro is kinda dense.

If you consider retro characters only old ones which have not been used later I would agree, but there are not many of them left honestly. My pick would still be Mach Rider all the time, or a Startropics protagonist (which by the way was a 1990 game, only one year older than Terry, so would you consider that game retro or not?).

 

[Metal Shop X]

There was once a day and age where I unironically supported Count Bleck for Smash.

You're a user of fine taste.

Still very sad that Count Bleck didn't came back as a spirit, but hey alteast we got Dimentio, sooooo, equivalent exchange???

 

[Shroob]

Literally almost 30 years and that's not retro? He's used still but come on, he's a retro character. We are at the point in which PS1/N64 is definitely considered retro gaming. The only difference from a character like Duck Hunt which is seven years older is that Terry appeared in other games later in time, but not considering him retro is kinda dense.

If you consider retro characters only old ones which have not been used later I would agree, but there are not many of them left honestly. My pick would still be Mach Rider all the time, or a Startropics protagonist (which by the way was a 1990 game, only one year older than Terry, so would you consider that game retro or not?).

If Terry's Retro, then characters like Kirby or Pikachu are as well.

When people are talking about "Retro" in regards to Smash, they're usually talking about characters from the 8BIT era like Duck Hunt, Ice Climbers, etc, not characters who debuted in the arcade or a 16/32 bit console.

 

[Vintage Creep]

If Terry's Retro, then characters like Kirby or Pikachu are as well.

When people are talking about "Retro" in regards to Smash, they're usually talking about characters from the 8BIT era like Duck Hunt, Ice Climbers, etc, not characters who debuted in the arcade or a 16/32 bit console.

I would consider the main difference the fact that Ice Climbers and Duck Hunt are characters that appeared decades ago and never again, and in that case I would agree. But retrogaming now has gone beyond that, even PS2 and Gamecube era is considered retro at this point by many. When a character reappears many times it reaches icon status maybe. I was talking a more general assumption of the term.

Like Pac-Man is used all the time but not consider him retro is kinda whack. If in Smash retro is exclusively one-time characters which are also super old, I guess we can consider a couple of Hero's skins this installment's retro picks.

 

[PLATINUM7]

If Terry's Retro, then characters like Kirby or Pikachu are as well.

When people are talking about "Retro" in regards to Smash, they're usually talking about characters from the 8BIT era like Duck Hunt, Ice Climbers, etc, not characters who debuted in the arcade or a 16/32 bit console.

I feel like what's retro just has to do with what's aged and whether the character is still being used. Had Punch-Out!! Wii not existed Little Mac would be considered a retro character in Smash 4.

Also kek for implying arcade games didn't exist in the 8-bit era.

 

[Shroob]

I would consider the main difference the fact that Ice Climbers and Duck Hunt are characters that appeared decades ago and never again, and in that case I would agree. But retrogaming now has gone beyond that, even PS2 and Gamecube era is considered retro at this point by many. When a character reappears many times it reaches icon status maybe. I was talking a more general assumption of the term.

Like Pac-Man is used all the time but not consider him retro is kinda whack. If in Smash retro is exclusively one-time characters which are also super old, I guess we can consider a couple of Hero's skins this installment's retro picks.

I think it's as simple as this.


Back in Brawl, Pit was considered one of the "Retro" picks for that game, and he was still until Uprising came out, so for Smash 4, Pit was no longer seen as "Retro".


Terry's had like what, 40+ games ever since the 90s and never really stopped coming out, can't say the same for characters like Ice Climbers, Duck Hunt, Etc.


Retro, at least when people are talking about it specifically in regards to Smash really only means 2 things:



Did they originate on the NES/SNES?

And

Did they continue into the modern era receiving new games? Bonus points if time forgot them.


If you can check both boxes, you've got a "Retro".

 

[Vintage Creep]

I think it's as simple as this.


Back in Brawl, Pit was considered one of the "Retro" picks for that game, and he was still until Uprising came out, so for Smash 4, Pit was no longer seen as "Retro".


Terry's had like what, 40+ games ever since the 90s and never really stopped coming out, can't say the same for characters like Ice Climbers, Duck Hunt, Etc.


Retro, at least when people are talking about it specifically in regards to Smash really only means 2 things:



Did they originate on the NES/SNES?

And

Did they continue into the modern era receiving new games? Bonus points if time forgot them.


If you can check both boxes, you've got a "Retro".

I get it, but that's a very specific definition which only happens in Smash Bros. To be fair I prefer an icon like Simon which is also a retro outside of Smash than a one-time flavor of the week obscure character just for the sake of it (which I'm not against to, mind you, it's just like it is).
This game is also called Ultimate so Sakurai obviously went for the very important or very requested characters, hence Terry got in and Mach Rider or Urban Champion did not. Still, many general retro picks and fan favorites, so I didn't miss this check box that much to be honest.

Also, your definition definitely works for someone like Glover for example. Had only one game, obscure, super old, but was on the Nintendo 64. The "bit era" rule is kinda arbitrary, especially since Mr. Game & Watch for example had nothing to do with it, and R.O.B. isn't even an actual videogame lol.

 

[Shroob]

I get it, but that's a very specific definition which only happens in Smash Bros. To be fair I prefer an icon like Simon which is also a retro outside of Smash than a one-time flavor of the week obscure character just for the sake of it (which I'm not against to, mind you, it's just like it is).
This game is also called Ultimate so Sakurai obviously went for the very important or very requested characters, hence Terry got in and Mach Rider or Urban Champion did not. Still, many general retro picks and fan favorites, so I didn't miss this check box that much to be honest.

And that specific definition is what people mean when they discuss "Retro" in regards to Smash. When people are thinking "Retro", they're not thinking characters like say, Terry, etc, they're thinking Balloon Fighter, Bubbles from Clu Clu Land, hell, Qbert I say half jokingly.

That's all I'm saying because, hell, almost anything could be "Retro" nowadays, but in regards to this one specific instance, "Retro Rep" is almost always talking about the 80's in regards to Smash. Is it EXTREMELY narrow? Yes, but so is a lot of stuff this community comes up with.

I feel like what's retro just has to do with what's aged and whether the character is still being used. Had Punch-Out!! Wii not existed Little Mac would be considered a retro character in Smash 4.

Also kek for implying arcade games didn't exist in the 8-bit era.

I didn't mean to imply such a thing if I did.

 

[Vintage Creep]

And that specific definition is what people mean when they discuss "Retro" in regards to Smash. When people are thinking "Retro", they're not thinking characters like say, Terry, etc, they're thinking Balloon Fighter, Bubbles from Clu Clu Land, hell, Qbert I say half jokingly.

That's all I'm saying because, hell, almost anything could be "Retro" nowadays, but in regards to this one specific instance, "Retro Rep" is almost always talking about the 80's in regards to Smash. Is it EXTREMELY narrow? Yes, but so is a lot of stuff this community comes up with.

Yeah sure, but you still have to consider that time goes on, so of course back in Melee and arguably Brawl retro was restricted to the two first generation of consoles. 20 years later, that timing restriction has naturally extended and could include other consoles.

I guess much more interesting and weird of a check box is that it's a one-time or almost one-time kind of deal, and that they never came back later. But if Glover for example, or Geno, or Saki Amamiya got in, I would consider them in the same group of weird choices like Ice Climbers and Duck Hunt. They're old, appeared in one or two games at the most, and totally forgotten by the mainstream (you could argue not for Geno but it's only the Smash community that is very vocal about it, outside of it nobody cares at all).

Yep, Saki has a Wii game, which is now retrogaming. Two games in total, forgotten, obscure, old... It checks basically all the boxes you said except that it's not a NES/SNES character but that's again extremely arbitrary and I don't think it ever was a rule.

The only two characters that are part of the group you described are Ice Climbers, Duck Hunt and R.O.B. basically, with the last one being reaching it since he's not even an actual character.

 

[Shroob]

Yeah sure, but you still have to consider that time goes on, so of course back in Melee and arguably Brawl retro was restricted to the two first generation of consoles. 20 years later, that timing restriction has naturally extended and could include other consoles.

I guess much more interesting and weird of a check box is that it's a one-time or almost one-time kind of deal, and that they never came back later. But if Glover for example, or Geno, or Saki Amamiya got in, I would consider them in the same group of weird choices like Ice Climbers and Duck Hunt. They're old, appeared in one or two games at the most, and totally forgotten by the mainstream (you could argue not for Geno but it's only the Smash community that is very vocal about it, outside of it nobody cares at all).

Yep, Saki has a Wii game, which is now retrogaming. Two games in total, forgotten, obscure, old... It checks basically all the boxes you said except that it's not a NES/SNES character but that's again extremely arbitrary and I don't think it ever was a rule.

The only two characters that are part of the group you described are Ice Climbers, Duck Hunt and R.O.B. basically, with the last one being reaching it since he's not even an actual character.

The fact that there's zoomers that can legit say that the Wii is "Retro" makes my hair gray even faster.

 

[Trevenant]

I feel like what's retro just has to do with what's aged and whether the character is still being used. Had Punch-Out!! Wii not existed Little Mac would be considered a retro character in Smash 4.

Also kek for implying arcade games didn't exist in the 8-bit era.

I still get irritated looking back at the amount of people who considered Little Mac retro just so the retro pattern still could still hold up. A major reason in him being speculated for 4 was due to the reboot, which, at the time was still quite recent yet he was still considered a retro.

 

[I.D.]

I don't have much to add but all I can say is it shouldn't be that hard to understand why a pass with almost nothing but additions to base game series isn't as exciting to some people as four new franchises plus a brand new game.

So as long as they have a new game they don't count as mere additions to base game series? Hmmmmmmm really makes me think

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I still get irritated looking back at the amount of people who considered Little Mac retro just so the retro pattern still could still hold up. A major reason in him being speculated for 4 was due to the reboot, which, at the time was still quite recent yet he was still considered a retro.

Well, there's an obvious difference between coming from a game series that is still retro and using a design based upon their retro version. Pac-Man and Little Mac are based upon their retro designs. They're not really from "retro games" otherwise. Pac-Man has constant games coming out, as did Little Mac at the time.

This is a similar case with Simon. He's based upon his retro design, but has been in games that were definitely not retro like Castlevania Judgment. Coupled with the series being relevant thanks to the Pinball Machines(Or was that Pachinko?) and the Cartoon, and well, he really really doesn't fit the Retro factor with a very active series. Same with Richter for the same reason. King K. Rool is pretty hard to be retro with an active series too. Etc.

...Speaking of retro stuff, didn't Sakurai specify Duck Hunt was a surprise character, not a retro one? I don't think Smash 4 had a specific retro character chosen. We definitely had a retro stage(Balloon Fight), but that's it.

 

[Dinoman96]

Here's a question...

Will we ever get another retro character?

They used to come pretty frequently but Ultimate got none.

And by that, I don't mean just older characters. I mean characters who haven't been used in ages and are meant as neat callbacks.



These four, basically.

Are we past the point of retros? Are they not important anymore?

"Retro characters" were never truely a thing outside of Ice Climbers, I'll just repost this

https://smashboards.com/threads/newcomer-dlc-speculation-discussion.453424/page-2323#post-23841164

Here's the thing: Ice Climbers were the only characters added in for the sake of having a "retro character".

Like Pit definitely wasn't added to add a new retro rep. He was a genuinely popular request. Sakurai himself said so.

I was well aware that Pit was a popular character in both America and Japan. I tried as best I could to design this version of him in a way that reflected current tastes, so I'm happy to see him so well received.

You could say that Pit was basically the Brawl equivalent of characters like K. Rool or Banjo & Kazooie, popular fan requests that happened to be dormant. People were wanting a new KI game for years, so it made sense that Pit was heavily demanded to be in Smash.

As for Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B and Duck Hunt, it should be noted that Sakurai has never once described them as "retro characters". In his words, they're "surprise characters". And Piranha Plant is meant to be Ultimate's equivalent to them. Which, right then and there, makes the entire concept of "retro fighters" outside of Ice Climbers pretty much null.

So really, ICs were pretty much the only time he ever explictly included a random NES era character for that reason. For all the other characters like Pit, R.O.B and Duck Hunt, it was really more happenstance that they're all old characters.

Piranha Plant was intended to be Ultimate's equivalent to characters like Duck Hunt or Game & Watch.

 

[Curious Villager]

I think as far as Nintendo are concerned, whatever came during or before the NES era is considered "retro", maybe whatever came during the 90's and prior if being generous, at best, though even then, they don't really tend to acknowledge as much of their libraries there outside of their most notable games (Mario World, Mario 64, Starfox 64, the N64 Zelda's etc).

It's pretty much what they mostly tend to celebrate, the retro costumes in Mario Maker, the NES remix series, retro callbacks in the Pushmo and the Art Style series etc generally being geared more towards NES games and all.
Basically, good luck being the Urban champion and Clu Clu Land etc outside of the NES era..

The Gamecube can reach 35 years old and it probably still wouldn't be viewed as a "retro" console, as little sense as that would probably make and if it would even finally get a virtual console release by that point while Nintendo is still trying to sell you Super Mario Bros for the umpteenth time...

 

[pupNapoleon]

https://twitter.com/NintendoVS/status/1245763498866405378?s=19

They are the mascots. It's explicitly stated right there and should be obvious to anyone. I know anytime someone says Spring Man is the mascot you go: "He won't be in a future game! Just look Scorpion! Scorpion guys! Look at Scorpion!" because you have the biggest hate boner over Spring Man. And, maybe I'm wrong but, it just seems to me that the idea of him being ARMS' mascot makes you sick to your stomach. Because you do this all the time.

*ahem*

I'm sorry. I just had to get that off my chest. Will Spring Man always be the mascot? I don't know. Maybe? Maybe not. But it really doesn't matter what happens in the future because right now he is the mascot along with Ribbon Girl. And Smash is adding characters based on ARMS as it is right now.

I appreciate that you got that off your chest if you feel you needed to do that, but let me be clear on a few points:
I love the characters in ARMS. I think they are some of the most zany cast of characters a video game has ever seen.
There isn't really a single one of them, at least not the main crew, that I dislike.
This goes for Spring Man- whom I have the actual hair to play. Between the color and the curl I think it's incredibly fun, and seeing his image actually brings me a sense of joy.

Please don't mistake my thoughts
I think that's the problem with a lot of this forum, and a difficulty with people in general; too many people mistake one's logic for being the same as their emotions. There is a reason ethos, logos, and pathos exist, and I can assure you that my thoughts on ARMS and what I think is going to happen have nothing to do with my emotions.

As for your link- it references the box art. If you choose to think that means anything substantial- all the power to you. My eyes are on the marketing and how that plays out, which is usually what I think towards. All things aside- this ARMS reveal will truly be one of the most exciting to me. Assuming I actually catch it before google, facebook, or a cell call spoils it.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

If we ever get another "Retro rep", I want it to be Mach Rider but not by their self (Not sure if man or woman). I'd want them to ride on the motorcycle and attack while on it.

I imagine their moves being like a back air where they rev up the back wheel to deal damage and then bounce off the opponent, an Up tilt where they handstand on the seat and kick upwards, Up smash could be them revving the motorcycle and then back flips with the motorcycle, dash attack could be a wheelie attack, etc.

I think Mach Rider would be a pretty cool character.

 

[Vintage Creep]

The fact that there's zoomers that can legit say that the Wii is "Retro" makes my hair gray even faster.

I'm a millennial and I consider Wii retro. Sad thing I know but the harsh truth

 

[Rie Sonomura]

So I kinda expect future announcements, including smash ones, to be shadowdropped

reason being; we got the new Paper Mario shadowdropped

The Paper Mario series arrives on #NintendoSwitch with an origami twist! What evil paper shenanigans does the Origami King have planned? Find out when #PaperMario: The Origami King releases on 7/17!https://t.co/Zw9epBSIZp pic.twitter.com/4fUGYDcGjG

— Nintendo of America (@NintendoAmerica) May 14, 2020

 

[Eldrake]

So I kinda expect future announcements, including smash ones, to be shadowdropped

reason being; we got the new Paper Mario shadowdropped

The Paper Mario series arrives on #NintendoSwitch with an origami twist! What evil paper shenanigans does the Origami King have planned? Find out when #PaperMario: The Origami King releases on 7/17!https://t.co/Zw9epBSIZp pic.twitter.com/4fUGYDcGjG

— Nintendo of America (@NintendoAmerica) May 14, 2020

Samus, while on plumber duty, engages in fierce dogfight with Invisible Ridley.

 

[I.D.]

Old and busted: Paper Mario
The new hotness: Origami Mario

 

[Garteam]

So I kinda expect future announcements, including smash ones, to be shadowdropped

reason being; we got the new Paper Mario shadowdropped

The Paper Mario series arrives on #NintendoSwitch with an origami twist! What evil paper shenanigans does the Origami King have planned? Find out when #PaperMario: The Origami King releases on 7/17!https://t.co/Zw9epBSIZp pic.twitter.com/4fUGYDcGjG

— Nintendo of America (@NintendoAmerica) May 14, 2020

Well, I guess Nintendo Directs are down the toilet for the time being, which is a shame. I like the communal aspect of everyone watching the same broadcast at the same time.

At least we got a need Paper Mario! I wonder if it's anything like the original tw...

...That's the Colour Splash battle system.

Dunford, get me my Paper Shredder.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I mean, they did say that the current Paper Mario was the direction they were going in for the RPG's. Looks like it didn't change.

Is Bowser the new "partner" like Kersti was? That's kind of neat, actually.

 

[YoshiandToad]

I can't believe Paper Mario's fallen from grace so much it's getting shadow dropped with little to no fanfare.

Hard to believe this franchise was once well respected until Sticker Star came along and ****ed it up.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Well, I guess Nintendo Directs are down the toilet for the time being, which is a shame. I like the communal aspect of everyone watching the same broadcast at the same time.

At least we got a need Paper Mario! I wonder if it's anything like the original tw...

...That's the Colour Splash battle system.

Dunford, get me my Paper Shredder.

>original two

Don’t be dunking on my Super Paper Mario man

it was miles better than SS and CS combined at least

 

[YoshiandToad]

Actually in all fairness the trailer looks pretty good.

Is this hope I feel? Uh oh, better stomp that out quick.