Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Idon]

I don't need a "Nintendo Pass" I got everyone I wanted already!

 

[Swamp Sensei]

If I had to guess a fighters pass of Nintendo only characters, without dipping into assist trophies or post release spirits...

I'd look something like this.

ARMS Character: Look I'm gonna be honest. I don't know who its gonna be. Do I have opinions on who's likely? Yeah. That's a duo of Spring Man / Ribbon Girl. But at this point I might as well just put ARMS characters cause... It's what we're all doing. If ya feel bad, you can put your favorite here.

Rex and Pyra / Elma: Xenoblade is gonna get someone new soon. Whether it be this game or the next game. I'm thinking Rex and Pyra are most likely but Xenoblade Chronicles X having no music whatsoever is making me keep an eye on Elma. I find the lack of music from that game odd, considering every other major released after Smash 4 got music. It's somewhat similar to ARMS' situation I suppose. That said, Xenoblade is definitely due for a new character.

Bandana Waddle Dee: Kirby is only getting bigger with time and Bandana Waddle Dee has cemented himself as the fourth main member of the cast. He's had some sort of appearance in every game after his breakout role in Return to Dreamland, with the only exception being spin offs (even then he's there for most of those). He's popular worldwide and has a super easy moveset to make. There aren't any real reason to not add him.

Someone from Zelda: Zelda deserves some character love. Problem is... I don't know who to add. All the obvious choices that I'd pick are in Assist trophy hell. Impa would be a cool choice but I kind of doubt the developers would pick someone who's been stuck in supporting character heck barring Hyrule Warriors and arguably Skyward Sword. BotW2 could have a character I guess but... I'm not so sure the cast will be very different from the first. Heck aside from Ganondorf, whom we already have, we don't know any new additions to the cast in the game. I just dunno who to choose, but I'd choose someone.

Someone from Animal Crossing: New Horizons is seriously insane. Selling gang busters! You may say, "Swamp, the characters were already chosen! New Horizon's success won't have an effect on the roster making process." And I'd agree. However I think the fact that Nintendo is almost soley relying on New Horizons for half of 2020 shows a lot of faith in the IP. And I think that may translate to Smash. Tom Nook is the obvious choice here but I suppose it doesn't have to be.

Dixie Kong: She deserves it. Definitely a face of her franchise and a recognizable character throughout. DK can definitely get away with one more character and it'd certainly be her. Only issue she has is potentially being out prioritized by other characters.



This was really hard. Most of the picks I would have chosen were in AT heck... That said, I think there's value to be had here. I really wanted to include a new IP but unless I chose a retro franchise, all the good choices were AT'd or post release spirits.

Now I don't think we're getting a Nintendo exclusive pass, and I'm willing to believe this is the time for some assist trophies to be promoted (WAAA) but there ya go. I've done the thing we're all doing.

Am I cool yet?

 

[Mamboo07]

Joining you guys on the Nintendo Pass train!

 

[EricTheGamerman]

His argument was that it makes sense why people wouldn't be excited for characters from franchises already on the roster.

If we're talking about third-parties, then yeah, but that's because we have twelve out of hundreds and hundreds of third-parties in Smash.

If we're talking about first-parties, then I strongly disagree. You could dig around and find dozens of franchises with a character that could work in Smash, but do I think many of them can compete with characters like Waluigi, Dixie, or BWD? Maybe a few, but overall not really. I like Ring Fit Trainee, but I don't think people will treat her kindly, as well as several others.

Just last week people were complaining about the concept of Ring Fit Trainee being too similar to WFT. Captain Toad should be considered a Mario character by all accounts, but if we're going to act like he's from a new franchise, you should know there's gonna be quite a few people bitter that he's not Waluigi or Geno. Then there's Style Savvy, which would be more of a nonsensical addition. I can't imagine how people would treat a character like that any nicer than they did ROB, WFT, and PP.

That's my point. You act like it's completely sensible for franchises with characters already on the roster and (for whatever reason) ARMS specifically to be met with resistance, but then you provide several examples of new franchises that have problems of their own.

People complaining about Ring Fit being too similar to Wii Fit Trainer has nothing to do with this conversation and reeks of uninformed opinions about Ring Fit and how it plays. I was using Captain Toad to illustrate the point that the series took a Mario character that had traditionally been less interesting and managed to make him more interesting and diverse from his origins in a successful IP. I mean, there will be bitter fans of any character you add whether requested by some groups or not, so again, I don't see how that applies. I'm also not saying Style Savvy would inherently make lots of the traditional fan base happy, and I personally don't see it happening, but it's still a fairly successful franchise that has continued over the years.

And why do you think it is that everybody who speaks to first parties mentions Waluigi, Bandanna Dee, and Dixie Kong? Because they are what's left of the major first parties for the most part in other series that have long standing fan bases and years to convince people of their merit. When they're in, that's about it if we're also not going down the road of new franchises to pull from. We've seen with just this Smash cycle that supposed "support vacuums" actually don't always fill and if they do, they sometimes don't go in more expected directions hence the explosion of third party interest for Smash as most people are monoliths just supporting Nintendo franchises, and most of their favorite first parties have gotten in (I'm not pretending to speak for all fans, just that's the case with some groups).

Again, where are you getting this idea that I expect every character to be met without resistance from other than the straw man you keep creating? Every single addition at Smash is met with resistance, that's the case when your game appeals to almost 20 million people because of different tastes, expectations, and ideas. The only thing I mentioned is that there is an increased resistance for existing first party franchises and that ARMS may not be as well received as other new franchises because of it being a more divisive game in of itself even among Nintendo faithful (mostly positive, but I would call it one of Nintendo's more polarizing new IPs). Nobody expects everyone to be happy at the end of the day of course, I just provided examples of new franchises that could potentially be referenced and potentially bring about unrecognized interest or interest from other areas that you don't conventionally think of, and on average, I have always seen Smash fans tend to be a bit more accepting of new franchises with unknowns than known entities.

 

[PSIGuy]

Boy we're really back to pre-Joker speculation, huh. Except this time we're the first DLC character in and still thinking all first parties stand a decent chance.

 

[Cosmic77]

If people want a pass with Ring Fit, Style Savvy, and other new IPs, I'd be fine with that. I just know better by now.

ARMS was arguably the most logical new IP to add to Smash. Spring Man was even one of the most popular characters for the base roster, and yet the ARMS reaction was...okay. If ARMS can only manage to get a so-so reaction from fans, then I have plenty of reasons to doubt that other new Nintendo IPs would fare much better. The people who are saying, "Oh yeah, a Style Savvy or Ring Fit character would definitely be a hit. They don't have a character yet," will be the same ones saying, "Well, I mean, it shouldn't have been a shock to anyone that "insert unrepped IP" had a lukewarm response," after their reveal.

I'll end with this, because this argument has gone on for a while now. Stop looking at the franchise and start looking at the character. There are plenty of reasons why a character would still be an exciting addition despite their franchises being involved with Smash since day one, and I don't think anyone would be complaining if Ridley or K. Rool hadn't gotten in Smash yet and Nintendo decided to add them as DLC before a majority of the unrepped IPs.

 

[zeldasmash]

Nintendo Pass: No Assist Trophies or Spirits:

Springton, Bandana Dee, Decidueye, Sylux, Porky

Nintendo Pass: Assist Trophies and Spirits Allowed:

Spring Man, Ghirahim, Isaac, Black Shadow, Alucard, Takamaru

 

[EricTheGamerman]

If people want a pass with Ring Fit, Style Savvy, and other new IPs, I'd be fine with that. I just know better by now.

ARMS was arguably the most logical new IP to add to Smash. Spring Man was even one of the most popular characters for the base roster, and yet the ARMS reaction was...okay. If ARMS can only manage to get a so-so reaction from fans, then I have plenty of reasons to doubt that other new Nintendo IPs would fare much better. The people who are saying, "Oh yeah, a Style Savvy or Ring Fit character would definitely be a hit. They don't have a character yet," will be the same ones saying, "Well, I mean, it shouldn't have been a shock to anyone that "insert unrepped IP" had a lukewarm response," after their reveal.

I'll end with this, because this argument has gone on for a while now. Stop looking at the franchise and start looking at the character. There are plenty of reasons why a character would still be an exciting addition despite their franchises being involved with Smash since day one, and I don't think anyone would be complaining if Ridley or K. Rool hadn't gotten in Smash yet and Nintendo decided to add them as DLC before a majority of the unrepped IPs.

Seriously, what is your problem with Ring Fit and just going out of your way to deny how big it has become???

 

[Gribbo]

Spoiler: Beeg Jonespost

Kinda seems like there's some fabricated idea of people only liking 3rd parties because they're non-Nintendo, and disliking 1st parties because they're Nintendo, when it's actually pretty simple.

I can only speak from my own perspective, but I'll share it. I've said before that I can be steadily convinced of a character by seeing gameplay. I quickly shut up about Robin after seeing their gameplay for Smash Wii U. That was after previously saying, "No, it's gonna be Chrom!"

I've played at least one of each series with a playable character. I have an idea of what/who the characters are that folks want from Nintendo games. Bandanna Waddle Dee, Waluigi, a Gen 8 Pokemon, Zelda. To me, there really isn't anything inherently wrong with wanting a character from those series if that's what you're into.

However, with the way the DLC has been handled historically...it's kinda easy for me to understand why folks may not be especially excited considering the circumstances of that pass, and the potential for an actual pass like that to exist.

Mario has: 16 stages, 9 characters (though Yoshi, Wario, DK, Diddy, and K.Rool could be tangentially related, but I'd argue DK is a bit more removed imo), 106 music tracks, 13 items, 4 Assist Trophies (6 if you consider Klap Trap and Ashley)

Pokemon has: 7 stages, 10 characters, 33 Music tracks, 2 items (55 Pokeball Pokemon NPCs)

Zelda has: 9 stages, 6 characters, (45 music tracks) 6 items, 4 Assist Trophies

Kirby has: 5 stages, 3 characters, (38 music tracks), 4 Items, 2 Assist Trophies

Fire Emblem has: 3 stages,8 characters, 52 music tracks, 1 item, 3 Assist Trophies

That makes 37% of stages, 44% of characters, 28% of music, ~30% of items, and 22% of Assist Trophies. The numbers shoot up just a tad if you include Yoshi, Wario, and DK items. Nearly half the roster comes from these 5 series, over 1/3 of the stages come from these 5 series, over 1/4 of the nearly 1,000 tracks of music come from these 5 series, just under 1/3 of all items comes from these 5 series, and Assist Trophies are just under 1/4 of the total.

Mind you, there are 36 unique series with playable characters in Smash. 5 of them make up a significant portion of the content of the game. Clearly, some have more than others.

Here the thing though...the 3rd party characters that folks talk about. Let's think about some of them...we've got Dante, Crash Bandicoot, Travis Touchdown, 2B, Ace Attorney, or Tekken...just to name a few.

Devil May Cry: 0 Characters, 0 stages, 0 music tracks, 0 ATs, 0 items

NieR Automata: 0 Characters, 0 stages, 0 music tracks, 0 ATs, 0 items

Crash Bandicoot: 0 Characters, 0 stages, 0 music tracks, 0 ATs, 0 items

No More Heroes: 0 Characters, 0 stages, 0 music tracks, 0 ATs, 0 items

Ace Attorney: 0 Characters, 0 stages, 0 music tracks, 0 ATs, 0 items

Tekken: 0 Characters, 0 stages, 0 music tracks, 0 ATs, 0 items

You get the point.

Now, I understand Smash started as a Nintendo crossover. It still is a Nintendo crossover. However, the series itself has grown, and 3rd party characters are a major reason for that. Smash isn't what it is today without 3rd party companies and developers. Nintendo isn't what it is today with 3rd party companies and developers. Smash has become something that stokes the crossover dreams of fans, so it's no wonder fans will think, "Oh boy, I wonder which new series will cross over next!"

It's like getting an Ice Cream cone with 9 scoops on it, and while the next person says, "Excuse me sir, can I get 1 scoop?" and then the person with 9 scoops say, "But wait, what about mine?"

There's nothing wrong with wanting more, but understand that others may not be as open to it when their favorite/most desired has literally nothing in Smash. Nearly every major Nintendo protagonist supporting crew member, and villain is in Smash, so it's not all that surprising that protagonists of larger/popular non-Nintendo series are getting added over lower tier Nintendo characters. That's not something that I'm placing my bias in, it's just where we're at.

That was...a lot to type. Just some food for thought. Mario, Zelda, Pokemon...they are among my favorites. I grew up with them. They're part of who I am. But I've played a lot of games over the years, and at least for me...considering the amount of content we already have, I'd be much more excited to see what we get from something like Devil May Cry as I would be seeing 10 more Mario songs added on top of the 100 we already have, you know?

Spoiler: Beeg duckpost

Personally I just like seeing the less well-known characters get some time in the spotlight. This is the big Nintendo game, so I like seeing the smaller Nintendo series get some time in the spotlight. In other games, Meanwhile with stuff like the MVC series, which I also follow, I usually root for more obscure Capcom characters, like Gene. I sure as hell don't ask for Mario! That's why I'm pretty indifferent to having characters like Dante in Smash. He may not have anything in this game, but he sure as hell has a lot of stuff in other crossover games. And I'm sure when they make The City of Cincinnati Vs Capcom, he'll be there again. But for smaller characters like, say, Isaac who I mentioned earlier, this is really their only chance to show up in something unless they suddenly decide to make a new Golden Sun game, so it's a lot more exciting to see them in a prominent role again.
To go back to the big ice cream analogy, think of it like this. You waited in line with a big group of people to get ice cream, but just as you get to the front of the line, the guy says they're out of ice cream and offers you a mint as compensation.
The next day, you go back there, there's fewer people there, but as you approach the front of the line, some guy walks up to you and asks you to give him your spot because already got something and he hasn't. Now you know this guy, and his dad owns a pretty big ice cream parlor that you can't afford. You can even smell ice cream in his breath when he talks to you, and he starts calling you niche and irrelevant and undeserving and you're just left thinking "what the **** are you talking about? I just want to get ice cream!"
First party characters don't just mean yet another Fire Emblem swordsman or a generic mook wearing a hat, there's plenty of cool stuff if you keep an open mind. And I'm not trying to rag on third parties either. Snake and Cloud are two of my favorite characters in this game! It's just that Ultimate kinda slacked in the smaller Nintendo series department. ARMS is only the second new Nintendo IP in this game, when every other game besides Melee added more new ones than the last. I don't see why it's so unreasonable.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I mean no disrespect here: Folks need to come to the understanding that while Nintendo does have good games in the industry, they do not hold a monopoly over quality content, nor do they have a monopoly on stellar "hype" additions for Smash, especially when their remaining characters are supporting cast members or series that have no support from Nintendo themselves.

Bandanna Waddle Dee in terms of "importance" is like Nero to Dante. If you're looking for "hype", then logically you would add Dante, or better yet why not add Resident Evil? Wouldn't Resident Evil, one of the largest franchises in media, get a playable character because it's huge and makes huge money?

Oh wait, it was spirited. (it still makes me cry, everytime).

For real. No progress will be made in this thread until folks understand that Nintendo picks are not superior to 3rd party picks just based on the premise that they are "Nintendo". I know I haven't made the claim that 3rd parties are objectively better, but it seems like folks are making this the hill they want to die on or that there's some 3rd party boogeyman out to get their 1st parties.

Objectively, there are characters that are not owned by Nintendo, that can bring things to Smash that Nintendo characters can't. Objectively, non-Nintendo companies have quality content, characters, IP, music, and other materials that have performed better or would/could generate "more hype" than side characters from Nintendo franchises among the gaming industry and fandoms.
-
We are at a point where folks literally do not read what others are saying and look foolish because they do not change their opinions or talking points based on new information.

One group is arguing what they think is likely. The other says what they want. Those are two different things. Clearly, there is a misunderstanding between these two conversations. I'm just gonna spell it out the best way I can: Desperately wanting characters DOES NOT make that character more likely or impervious to information that makes them appear to be unlikely.

Bethesda said they haven't been contacted for Doom Slayer. You're more than welcome to want him, but that makes him seem less likely.

Most DLC picks have been 3rd party, and the 1st party picks have mainly been promotional in nature. Precedent suggests this could continue. Instead of saying, "Yes, that's possible" folks absolutely, positively deny it being possible. It's outrageous.

There are picks I would love to see. But I do my best to separate that from what I see in front of me. Sure, I want Dante. If a report came out that Dante was more or less off the table, I would assume it was over! That's just how it works.

I don't know, my dudes. This is so along "party lines" that it really takes some of the fun out of it sometimes.

 

[Cosmic77]

Seriously, what is your problem with Ring Fit and just going out of your way to deny how big it has become???

I've already said multiple times I like Ring Fit Adventure, and I know it's been a success. I'm talking about it getting a character in this pass.

No, I don't believe for a minute that this thread would welcome Ring Fit Trainee with open arms. I don't expect a reaction that's noticeably better than ARMS, and I don't think many people genuinely care that it's a new IP. That's coming from someone who supports A Ring Fit character

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Nintendo Pass: No Assist Trophies or Spirits:

Springton, Bandana Dee, Decidueye, Sylux, Porky

Nintendo Pass: Assist Trophies and Spirits Allowed:

Spring Man, Ghirahim, Isaac, Black Shadow, Sylux, Takamaru

BD is a spirit tho. weirdly enough Decidueye has neither a Spirit NOR a Pokeball.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I think people are taking the Nintendo only pass challenge a little too seriously...

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I think people are taking the Nintendo only pass challenge a little too seriously...

Wachu mean, Smash is serious business.

I swear to ****ing gawd, if I don’t get my funny pizza man demon slayer, I will put my Smash Ultimate cartridge in a wood chipper, then return it to GameStop in the middle of the CoViD-19 pandemic.

Your move, Mashed Potato samurai.

Spoiler: Mfw

 

[chocolatejr9]

I think people are taking the Nintendo only pass challenge a little too seriously...

Trust me, you'll get used to it.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I mean no disrespect here: Folks need to come to the understanding that while Nintendo does have good games in the industry, they do not hold a monopoly over quality content, nor do they have a monopoly on stellar "hype" additions for Smash, especially when their remaining characters are supporting cast members or series that have no support from Nintendo themselves.

Bandanna Waddle Dee in terms of "importance" is like Nero to Dante. If you're looking for "hype", then logically you would add Dante, or better yet why not add Resident Evil? Wouldn't Resident Evil, one of the largest franchises in media, get a playable character because it's huge and makes huge money?

Oh wait, it was spirited. (it still makes me cry, everytime).

For real. No progress will be made in this thread until folks understand that Nintendo picks are not superior to 3rd party picks just based on the premise that they are "Nintendo". I know I haven't made the claim that 3rd parties are objectively better, but it seems like folks are making this the hill they want to die on or that there's some 3rd party boogeyman out to get their 1st parties.

Objectively, there are characters that are not owned by Nintendo, that can bring things to Smash that Nintendo characters can't. Objectively, non-Nintendo companies have quality content, characters, IP, music, and other materials that have performed better or would/could generate "more hype" than side characters from Nintendo franchises among the gaming industry and fandoms.
-
We are at a point where folks literally do not read what others are saying and look foolish because they do not change their opinions or talking points based on new information.

One group is arguing what they think is likely. The other says what they want. Those are two different things. Clearly, there is a misunderstanding between these two conversations. I'm just gonna spell it out the best way I can: Desperately wanting characters DOES NOT make that character more likely or impervious to information that makes them appear to be unlikely.

Bethesda said they haven't been contacted for Doom Slayer. You're more than welcome to want him, but that makes him seem less likely.

Most DLC picks have been 3rd party, and the 1st party picks have mainly been promotional in nature. Precedent suggests this could continue. Instead of saying, "Yes, that's possible" folks absolutely, positively deny it being possible. It's outrageous.

There are picks I would love to see. But I do my best to separate that from what I see in front of me. Sure, I want Dante. If a report came out that Dante was more or less off the table, I would assume it was over! That's just how it works.

I don't know, my dudes. This is so along "party lines" that it really takes some of the fun out of it sometimes.

I'm gonna pull an Uno reverso switchero on ya Jones.

I agree that 3rd Parties add quality content and there are several third parties I would love to be added (Wright and Lloyd would make me bonkers excited).

That said, I'm gonna pose the question.

What's wrong with supporting characters from Nintendo franchises?

 

[TheCJBrine]

smh more 1st-parties vs. 3rd-parties arguments with people ragging on both sides.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I'm gonna pull an Uno reverso switchero on ya Jones.

I agree that 3rd Parties add quality content and there are several third parties I would love to be added (Wright and Lloyd would make me bonkers excited).

That said, I'm gonna pose the question.

What's wrong with supporting characters from Nintendo franchises?

There isn’t anything wrong with it. I have not once said there’s anything wrong with it.

I have encouraged folks to simply venture out and try some new games when possible, to learn more about said games. But I have never seen it as a “bad thing” to support Nintendo characters.

I mean hey, I was raised on Nintendo. It’s good stuff. It’s just not the only good stuff out there.

 

[CureParfait]

My personal Nintendo Pass

1. Spring Man
2. Darkrai
3. Waluigi
4. Marshal (Animal Crossing)
5. Lyn
6. Isaac

 

[Cosmic77]

I mean no disrespect here: Folks need to come to the understanding that while Nintendo does have good games in the industry, they do not hold a monopoly over quality content, nor do they have a monopoly on stellar "hype" additions for Smash, especially when their remaining characters are supporting cast members.

Bandanna Waddle Dee in terms of "importance" is like Nero to Dante. If you're looking for "hype", then logically you would add Dante, or better yet why not add Resident Evil? Wouldn't Resident Evil, one of the largest franchises in media, get a playable character because it's huge and makes huge money?

Oh wait, it was spirited. (it still makes me cry, everytime).

For real. No progress will be made in this thread until folks understand that Nintendo picks are not superior to 3rd party picks just based on the premise that they are "Nintendo". I know I haven't made the claim that 3rd parties are objectively better, but it seems like folks are making this the hill they want to die on or that there's some 3rd party boogeyman out to get their 1st parties.

Objectively, there are characters that are not owned by Nintendo, that can bring things to Smash that Nintendo characters can't. Objectively, non-Nintendo companies have quality content, characters, IP, music, and other materials that have performed better or would/could generate "more hype" than side characters from Nintendo franchises among the gaming industry and fandoms.
-
We are at a point where folks literally do not read what others are saying and look foolish because they do not change their opinions or talking points based on new information.

One group is arguing what they think is likely. The other says what they want. Those are two different things. Clearly, there is a misunderstanding between these two conversations. I'm just gonna spell it out the best way I can: Desperately wanting characters DOES NOT make that character more likely or impervious to information that makes them appear to be unlikely.

Bethesda said they haven't been contacted for Doom Slayer. You're more than welcome to want him, but that makes him seem less likely.

Most DLC picks have been 3rd party, and the 1st party picks have mainly been promotional in nature. Precedent suggests this could continue. Instead of saying, "Yes, that's possible" folks absolutely, positively deny it being possible. It's outrageous.

There are picks I would love to see. But I do my best to separate that from what I see in front of me. Sure, I want Dante. If a report came out that Dante was more or less off the table, I would assume it was over! That's just how it works.

I don't know, my dudes. This is so along "party lines" that it really takes some of the fun out of it sometimes.

If that's what you've taken from the conversation, then you're just as guilty for not taking the time to read or understand what's been said.

The likelihood of certain characters getting in has nothing to do with my argument. Actually, I'm not even sure at what point you determined that this whole thing was about me thinking my personal wants were more likely than the other characters that were brought up. I guess you decided this had something to do with me desperately wanting a Pokemon or something, but that wasn't the case.

This is the absolute simplest form of my argument: I don't agree that characters from new first-party IPs automatically bring more hype than characters from franchises already represented on the roster. I believe it's circumstantial and differs depending on which characters we're discussing. Doesn't matter if that series lacks a stage, music, and/or Spirits. People need to have a connection with that character/franchise, and if they don't, they're not gonna care about it being content from a new IP.

If you or anyone else was trying to argue against anything else than that, then I don't really know what caused you to miss my main point.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I have literally never seen people on this site raise concerns, complaints or discuss some possible stigma about Paper Mario being a "third Mario" until today.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but this seems like a way newer mindset.

 

[3BitSaurus]

There isn’t anything wrong with it. I have not once said there’s anything wrong with it.

I have encouraged folks to simply venture out and try some new games when possible, to learn more about said games. But I have never seen it as a “bad thing” to support Nintendo characters.

I mean hey, I was raised on Nintendo. It’s good stuff. It’s just not the only good stuff out there.

To be fair, for all the talk on "Nintendo purists", I've yet to see anyone argue "only Nintendo choices would be good".

Maybe it was the case a long time ago, but if people's reaction to a first-party pass in this thread is anything to go by, people who care more about third parties certainly seem to be in the majority here.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I have literally never seen people on this site raise concerns, complaints or discuss some possible stigma about Paper Mario being a "third Mario" until today.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but this seems like a way newer mindset.

I've heard them for a long time, but they're weren't common until recently.

A shame, Paper Mario could be really interesting.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I have literally never seen people on this site raise concerns, complaints or discuss some possible stigma about Paper Mario being a "third Mario" until today.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but this seems like a way newer mindset.

It's unfortunate, but I see it extremely often in context of Paper Mario.

I'd love the character. I admit I've made a similar argument in the past, and it was awful back then too. But it helps that I've appreciated how it doesn't matter if they're the same person or not. A changed moveset is still fun on its own.

...Though in this case, Paper Mario is supposed to be a different person from Mario too, apparently, at least according to Paper Jam. Might not really be "canon", but at least they did manage to separate them. Not much better than how Metal Mario is his own person in Mario Kart now, anyway.

 

[Cosmic77]

I have literally never seen people on this site raise concerns, complaints or discuss some possible stigma about Paper Mario being a "third Mario" until today.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but this seems like a way newer mindset.

Sadly, it's been around for a while.

Paper Mario is nothing like Mario in terms of abilities, but some people think the design ruins the character.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I have literally never seen people on this site raise concerns, complaints or discuss some possible stigma about Paper Mario being a "third Mario" until today.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but this seems like a way newer mindset.

This has been around for ages, since Smash 4 speculation even TBH.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I've heard them for a long time, but they're weren't common until recently.

A shame, Paper Mario could be really interesting.

I concur. There's a lot of unique and fun things you could do with Paper Mario considering his wide span of paper powers and special weapons he has throughout the series (mainly the first three games).

Also, hi again, bud.

 

[PeridotGX]

I have literally never seen people on this site raise concerns, complaints or discuss some possible stigma about Paper Mario being a "third Mario" until today.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but this seems like a way newer mindset.

I've heard it once or twice, but it was never as widespread as it was today. Odd, I've always assumed Paper Mario was a decently popular character, not Issac tier or anything, but up there.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'm personally surprised at all the hate Bandana Dee gets as well.

Considering how popular they are, you'd think most people would at least be neutral to them.

 

[Cosmic77]

I'm personally surprised at all the hate Bandana Dee gets as well.

Considering how popular they are, you'd think most people would at least be neutral to them.

His moveset is even completely mapped out in Star Allies, so it's not like people can argue that he can't do anything/wouldn't be unique.

 

[Deleted member]

I've heard them for a long time, but they're weren't common until recently.

A shame, Paper Mario could be really interesting.

Yeah, Paper Mario would be a really fun character.

 

[Perkilator]

His moveset is even completely mapped out in Star Allies, so it's not like people can argue that he can't do anything/wouldn't be unique.

I even mapped out a moveset using that Star Allies moveset.

Spoiler

Intro: Bandana Dee flies in on his parasol.

Stance/Idle 1: His idle animation from Return to Dream Land onwards.

Idle 2: Bandana Dee stretches his arms.

Idle 3: Bandana Dee admiringly glances at his spear.


Notable Palette Swaps:
-Bandana Dee (Dee-fault)
-King Dedede (Yellow/Red)
-Meta Knight (Purple)
-Gooey (Blue)
-Landia (Red)
-Magolor (Cyan)
-Galacta Knight (Pink)
-Whispy Woods (Green)

Walk: Bandana Dee tiptoes.

Jog: His walk from the modern Kirby games.

Dash: His dash from the modern Kirby games.

Damage: His damage animation from the modern Kirby games.

Jump: His jump from the modern Kirby games; like the rest of the Kirby roster, Bandana Dee can jump up to six times. However, he is shown slowly falling down with a sloppy posture each jump.

Crouch: His crouch from the modern Kirby games.


Weapon of Choice: Bandana Dee always fights with his trusty spear, but he can also use a parasol and elemental magic as well.


Jab: Multispear Thrust; Waddle Dee slashes twice (6%, small knockback), and flurries with multiple spear thrusts (2-3% each, small knockback), and finishes with a straight jab (7%, OK knockback)
Forward+A: Spear Thrust; Bandana Dee thrusts his spear straight forward (8%, OK knockback)
Down+A: Slide; Bandana Dee slides across the ground (5%, small knockback)
Up+A: Skyward Thrust; Bandana Dee thrusts his spear upwards (7%, OK knockback)

Air+A: Bandana Dee rapidly spins his spear (9%, OK knockback)
Air Forward+A: Waddle Spear Barrage; Bandana Dee throws two spears in front of him (6% each, small knockback)
Air Back + A: Back Thrust; Bandana Dee thrusts his spear behind him (10%, OK knockback)
Air Up+A: Parasol Twirl; Bandana Dee twirls his parasol (11%, OK knockback); he can also glide with it by holding Up, somewhat like Peach’s, only it deals no damage.
Air Down+A: Moon Drop; Bandana Dee briefly spins his spear, and then drops down (13% with a meteor effect, OK knockback); he gets pushed up when he makes contact, just like the Links.

Dash Attack: Ground Thrust; Bandana Dee dashes a long distance and runs his spear through the ground, thrusting upwards at the end (12%, OK knockback)
Edge Attack: Bandana Dee thrusts on the edge (9%, OK knockback)
Get-Up Attack: Bandana Dee spins on the ground (8%, OK knockback)

Smash Moves
Forward+A: Aqua Shot; Bandana Dee flaps his parasol as water spouts out of it (16%, OK knockback)
Up+A: Chumbrella; Bandana Dee expands his parasol greatly (18%, medium knockback)
Down+A: Parasol Twirl; Bandana Dee spins his parasol on the ground as winds comes out of it (19%, medium knockback)

Grab: Bandana Dee summons a Beam with his spear.
Pummel: Bandana Dee stabs the target with his spear (2%)
Forwards+Throw: Capture Beam; Bandana Dee shoots a full Beam diagonally upwards in his direction (14%, OK knockback)
Down+Throw: Bandana Dee stabs the target into a burial (15%)
Back+Throw: Bandana Dee lifts up the target with his spear and tosses them behind himself (14%, OK knockback)
Up+Throw: Circus Throw; Bandana Dee spins the target around on his parasol and chucks them upwards (11%, OK knockback)

Special Moves

B : Power Effect; Bandana Dee selects one element from a menu to effect his attacks. The selection is like Shulk’s Monado Arts, in which Bandana Dee can switch elements on the fly.
B + Forwards : Spear Throw; Bandana Dee throws one spear at a time when B is tapped (5% each, small knockback). When B is held, Bandana Dee charges, and can either throw two (6% each, small knockback) or three at a time (8% each, small knockback)
B + Up : Waddle Copter; Bandana Dee flies around using his spear as a helicopter (21%, medium knockback); when used on the ground, the player has complete control of Bandana Dee’s flight, in which he can go in all 8 directions.
B + Down : Friend Summon; Bandana Dee throws a heart that summons one of two friends: Waddle Doo and Bronto Burt. Bronto Burt charges into enemies (4%, small knockback), while Waddle Doo uses his Beam ability (12%, OK knockback)

Final Smash: Megaton Punch; Bandana Dee punches up to two targets in front of him (8%), and the targets are into a cutscene where Bandana Dee jumps high into the air, and then punches the ground as he falls back down. The punch is so strong, it creates a fissure in the ground (55%, devastating knockback).

Gimmick: Power Effect Elements

-Blizzard: Attacks are slightly slower, but combos can sometimes freeze a target
-Bluster: Attacks are quicker and the attack power is multiplied by 1.2x, but with more endlag
-Sizzle: Targets could have a lingering fire effect that slowly raises damage, but Bandana Dee’s damage slowly rises the longer he’s left idle
-Splash: Bandana Dee is slower and so are his attacks, but the power is multiplied by 1.4x
-Zap: Attack power slowly increases with each combo (up to 1.5x), but Bandana Dee’s damage slowly rises little by little

Taunts
1: Bandana Dee looks around him, mimicking his artwork from Return to Dream Land.
2: Bandana Dee happily waves his arms.
1+2: Bandana Dee falls asleep, thinking about an apple.


Winposes
1: Bandana Dee’s win pose from the Megaton Punch minigame.
2: Bandana Dee spins his spear and raises it upwards, mimicking his summon animation from Star Allies.
3: Bandana Dee spins his spear and triumphantly plants the bottom end on the ground.

Applause: Bandana Dee’s losing animation from the Megaton Punch minigame.

Icon: Kirby series icon

Boxing Ring Title: Hero Among Waddle Dees

Victory Music: youtu.be/CEIwsGXvwfU

Kirby Hat: Bandana Dee’s…well, Bandana. However, Kirby only imitates Bandana Dee’s Side B.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Paper Mario is a low key want of mine. Rex too. And Isaac.

Just don’t really think they’re all that likely.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

It's unfortunate, but I see it extremely often in context of Paper Mario.

I'd love the character. I admit I've made a similar argument in the past, and it was awful back then too. But it helps that I've appreciated how it doesn't matter if they're the same person or not. A changed moveset is still fun on its own.

...Though in this case, Paper Mario is supposed to be a different person from Mario too, apparently, at least according to Paper Jam. Might not really be "canon", but at least they did manage to separate them. Not much better than how Metal Mario is his own person in Mario Kart now, anyway.

Another reason why I don't see him being as "third Mario" as an issue.

Yeah, the fanbase complains about the multitude of blue haired anime swordspeople and they previously complained about three possible green Zelda heroes, but that hasn't stopped those scenarios from repeatedly becoming reality. I'm really not sure what the context of this day-long argument is anymore, so... what's the issue, here, exactly? Why are folks going on about this whole "third Mario" debacle? That's my question.

Sadly, it's been around for a while.

Paper Mario is nothing like Mario in terms of abilities, but some people think the design ruins the character.

This has been around for ages, since Smash 4 speculation even TBH.

I never saw an argument like this en masse before now, especially not as far back as Smash 4.

The argument might've been around to some degree, it'd be illogical to assume otherwise, but I've never seen it so run rampant up until today. Tells me the mindset must've grown recently, for whatever reason.

I've heard it once or twice, but it was never as widespread as it was today. Odd, I've always assumed Paper Mario was a decently popular character, not Issac tier or anything, but up there.

Now this is where my mind has been...Until now, I guess.

I'm personally surprised at all the hate Bandana Dee gets as well.

Considering how popular they are, you'd think most people would at least be neutral to them.

The hate's still around, unfortunately, but at least Piranha Plant killed the "hatted Goomba" stigma.

Anyone who uses that argument anymore is practically begging to not be taken seriously.

 

[Deleted member]

Paper Mario is a low key want of mine. Rex too. And Isaac.

Just don’t really think they’re all that likely.

I still need to play a Paper Mario game, lol.

Hopefully I manage to find Super Paper Mario somewhere in my island (Two Thousand Year Door isn't available anywhere).

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I still need to play a Paper Mario game, lol.

Hopefully I manage to find Super Paper Mario somewhere in my island (Two Thousand Year Door isn't available anywhere).

If you have a Wii U, you can buy Super Paper Mario digitally.

 

[Deleted member]

If you have a Wii U, you can buy Super Paper Mario digitally.

Oh, that's great to hear!

Will try to pick It for Wii U then.

 

[PeridotGX]

Oh, that's great to hear!

Will try to pick It for Wii U then.

the N64 one is also avalible digitally on Wii U. And obviously Color Splash too.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

There was once a day and age where I unironically supported Count Bleck for Smash.

 

[SmashChu]

There's also the issue that exclusively catering to new series isn't a guarantee that everyone will be happy. There's a lot of characters in pre-existing franchises that are heavily requested and would be left out, leading to disappointed fans. This isn't even a problem exclusive to big Nintendo franchises, it applies to the third parties already in Smash as well. Want Tails, Chun-Li, or Sephiroth? Tough luck. Supporting characters from franchises already in Smash getting in may also have a bigger impact than a character from a new franchise, because there's a stronger overlap between fans of that character and fans of Smash Bros. Bandana Waddle Dee getting in Smash would be a big deal for the average Kirby fan, because it's highly likely that has played and cares about Smash Bros due to being introduced by its Kirby content. By comparison, someone like Captain Price getting in Smash may not be a big deal to the average Call of Duty fan, as there's a decent chance they've never played Smash Bros before or simply don't care about it that much.

A bit of an aside, but I feel one of the problems with Smash nowadays is there are too many series. Its happened in both Smash 4 and Ultimate that some series get pushed to the side as they make content for the newer series or for ones they want to work on. Heck, Star Fox didn't get any new music despite having two new games since Smash 4. I feel like they are stretched too thin to try and give each series its fair shake. It's something I think they should address in the next game. Shrink down the number of series and stay focused rather than adding as much as they can.