Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[PsySmasher]

You ever kinda just want Nintendo to reveal everything at once?

I don’t know, kinda random thought.

Yeah kinda.

A lot of FGs just reveal their full pass at once but still get hyped up throughout its release (like MK11) so it could work for Smash

Then again Smash and its fandom is an entirely separate beast from other FGs and their communities so idk how well it’d be received overall

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It's pretty clear that Nintendo wants every character unveil and release to be special or at least have your attention.

It's hard to do that when you have a Mortal Kombat kind of trailer where everyone is revealed with varying amounts of fanfare.

I mean, let's be honest. How many people know Robo Cop is a new character in MK11? Can you name the other new characters off the top of your head? Unless you're into MK, you might not be able to.

 

[slrigeigdew]

I mean... there are more Paper Mario and especially Mario & Luigi tracks already in Smash.

I don't know why you're only playing one.

Cuz I'm not a fan of ColorSplash and Paper Jam music? The other songs are a banger but they don't really fit the stage since I tend to play on the omega/battlefield version. Give me music from Paper Mario 64, Super mario RPG, Super Paper Mario and Superstar Saga and maybe then I'll be satisfied.

We got 5 different versions of 1-1, I don't think it's too much to ask for more variety.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Sakurai did say he didn't just want heroes/heroines in Smash when he was asked about Piranha Plant and even cited characters like Mr. Game & Watch and Duck Hunt Dog as other examples. So I think the ARMS fighter is someone Sakurai wants to use that isn't a main hero.

I think it's either Max Brass or Dr Coyle. The latter of whom would be the first Unique female villain in the series.

I actually feel like Coyle getting in as the first rep because she's an unrepresented female villian is something fans would do, not Sakurai. Plus he did give us a pass full of protagonists even after that Piranha Plant statement.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Superstar Saga

You technically have a track from the remake.

 

[Megadoomer]

If I had to pick a Nintendo-only pass, I'd go with... (assuming that spirits don't prevent characters from getting in, and in no particular order)

Min Min (while it would be nice to no longer have assist trophies, Mii costumes, and spirits seen as barriers to being playable, I don't find Spring Man to be very interesting)
Wonder Red
Dixie Kong
Impa
Elma (I'm not a huge fan of Rex so far in Xenoblade 2, and I'd rather not have Xenoblade X ignored just because it was a Wii U exclusive)
Bandanna Waddle Dee

I'd like to see Alexandra Roivas and Captain Toad in there as well, but I figure that Kirby, Xenoblade, and Zelda could use another character, and Dixie's long overdue. I'm not sure about the ownership of the Wonderful 101, though - if Platinum owns the franchise now, then replace Wonder Red with Captain Toad. (as much as I liked Eternal Darkness, it would be a random choice for a Smash DLC character)

If spirits DID prevent characters from getting in... let's see...

Dr. Coyle (ARMS)
Mike Jones (Star Tropics)
Pious Augustus (Eternal Darkness)
Sylux (Metroid)
Porky (Earthbound)
Adeleine and Ribbon (Kirby)

This turned out surprisingly villain-heavy. I originally had the Amazon from Pro Wrestling at the end before remembering that one of the characters would have to be from ARMS.

EDIT: made a picture of my second line-up, since it's rather unusual for a variety of reasons.

I couldn't find a transparent picture of Pious Augustus.

 

[7NATOR]

being honest, If Sakurai really cared about unique Representation he would Add Twintelle (this is assuming only 1 ARMS Character). I don't know if he cares that much about it though

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Choose what you want to believe, but I don't believe sticking to new franchises and adding unrepped series to the roster is the best way to approach things, especially if we're talking about first-parties. Even if we only add new franchises that have been better received than ARMS (which is gonna be tough, because a lot of these franchises have remained small for a reason) I'm very skeptical that people would be pleased with that kind of pass.

Seriously, I don't think the fanbase would go into a violent rage if Sakurai chose to add a new Zelda character despite the series having PLENTY of other forms of representation.

Who even implied people would rage about another Zelda character, people are just saying there would likely be less enthusiasm for one compared to a number of entirely new franchises and that people either tend to prefer brand new franchises or those that have fewer fighters. The point myself and others have made is that even while considering JUST Nintendo's existing franchises in Smash we've managed to burn through a lot of beloved candidates that represent the biggest and best of basically every series. That doesn't mean people can't enjoy more fighters from those series, but you do see decreases in enthusiasm for most series that already have several fighters, and even with a number of people who enjoy those choices there's less interest or investment. How do you deal with some of that decreased enthusiasm? You look to new avenues.

Even on the first party front, you've got some compelling recent IPs from new franchises. Ring Fit Adventure has clearly just dominated the landscape since release and is one of the most sought after Switch releases on the market right now; Astral Chain was another successful Platinum Games title that broke over 1 million sold copies and got tons of positive praise and press (it may be smaller than ARMS, but it had a much better reception); Captain Toad is technically still widening the Mario bench, but he's also headed his own successful spin-off franchise ala Yoshi, Wario, and Donkey Kong. There's three great candidates right there from non represented franchises that are newer and successful beyond ARMS. There's still fairly active franchises to work with as well: Style Savvy had a game just released 2.5 years ago and Rhythm Heaven hasn't been dormant for THAT long. There's plenty of additionally compelling ways to add first parties, beyond just going deeper on franchises that people may be less interested in already.

No, Smash fans aren't going to riot in the streets over another Zelda character anymore than they did over Byleth or Piranha Plant, but nobody's claiming that and you're just attacking another straw man. But people are going to have preferences, and like, yes Waluigi may be fairly popular with casual gamers thanks to 20 years of spinoff appearances and memes, but just step back and think about how far Smash has had to come to get to the point where Waluigi is like one of the "most important Nintendo characters" not in the game. Like the 11th and 12th Mario characters will undoubtedly have fans, but plenty of fans of even those characters have interests in other titles too, both first party and third party, and may be more enthused by such picks than backup bench first parties from heavily represented franchises.

But another solution is this: Nintendo can just keep making successful new IPs they're interested in pushing and expanding their horizons as a company. As I pointed out, Captain Toad, Splatoon, ARMS, Astral Chain, and Ring Fit Adventure all show a more adventurous Nintendo in recent years that can make new projects that are also financial and sometimes critical successes.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

I might as well join in on the Nintendo Pass fun.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I might as well join in on the Nintendo Pass fun.

View attachment 271665

Did you just unironically add a fourth Link?

 

[Perkilator]

Hey, I think I’ll join in ont he Nintendo Pass bandwagon!
FP6: Min Min
FP7: Euden
FP8: Bandana Dee
FP9: Ring Fit Trainee
FP10: Sirfetch’d
FP11: Ayumi Tachibana

 

[chocolatejr9]

Did you just unironically add a fourth Link?

Why, was he supposed to do it ironically?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Why, was he supposed to do it ironically?

...Yes?

 

[Cosmic77]

Who even implied people would rage about another Zelda character, people are just saying there would likely be less enthusiasm for one compared to a number of entirely new franchises and that people either tend to prefer brand new franchises or those that have fewer fighters. The point myself and others have made is that even while considering JUST Nintendo's existing franchises in Smash we've managed to burn through a lot of beloved candidates that represent the biggest and best of basically every series. That doesn't mean people can't enjoy more fighters from those series, but you do see decreases in enthusiasm for most series that already have several fighters, and even with a number of people who enjoy those choices there's less interest or investment. How do you deal with some of that decreased enthusiasm? You look to new avenues.

Even on the first party front, you've got some compelling recent IPs from new franchises. Ring Fit Adventure has clearly just dominated the landscape since release and is one of the most sought after Switch releases on the market right now; Astral Chain was another successful Platinum Games title that broke over 1 million sold copies and got tons of positive praise and press (it may be smaller than ARMS, but it had a much better reception); Captain Toad is technically still widening the Mario bench, but he's also headed his own successful spin-off franchise ala Yoshi, Wario, and Donkey Kong. There's three great candidates right there from non represented franchises that are newer and successful beyond ARMS. There's still fairly active franchises to work with as well: Style Savvy had a game just released 2.5 years ago and Rhythm Heaven hasn't been dormant for THAT long. There's plenty of additionally compelling ways to add first parties, beyond just going deeper on franchises that people may be less interested in already.

No, Smash fans aren't going to riot in the streets over another Zelda character anymore than they did over Byleth or Piranha Plant, but nobody's claiming that and you're just attacking another straw man. But people are going to have preferences, and like, yes Waluigi may be fairly popular with casual gamers thanks to 20 years of spinoff appearances and memes, but just step back and think about how far Smash has had to come to get to the point where Waluigi is like one of the "most important Nintendo characters" not in the game. Like the 11th and 12th Mario characters will undoubtedly have fans, but plenty of fans of even those characters have interests in other titles too, both first party and third party, and may be more enthused by such picks than backup bench first parties from heavily represented franchises.

But another solution is this: Nintendo can just keep making successful new IPs they're interested in pushing and expanding their horizons as a company. As I pointed out, Captain Toad, Splatoon, ARMS, Astral Chain, and Ring Fit Adventure all show a more adventurous Nintendo in recent years that can make new projects that are also financial and sometimes critical successes.

Ring Fit Adventure, Astral Chain, Captain Toad, and Style Savvy are all examples of franchises that would receive a significantly more positive reaction than ARMS? This is the pass that would make people sigh in relief that we didn't get more Mario, Zelda, or the dreaded Pokemon #11? I feel like I don't even need to explain why some of these would be devisive.

Maybe I'm wrong, but despite the constant complaints about certain franchises having too much content, I feel like people would ultimately be a lot happier with a pass full of characters from extremely popular franchises that are already on the roster than one that's full of characters from noticeably smaller franchises that were added just because they don't have a character yet. You could even toss in Isaac, and I still don't think people would be content with this pass.

You're focusing so much on the franchise itself and its lack of content that you can't step back and look at the bigger picture. As much as I like Ring Fit and Style Savvy, they have very limited appeal, and I'm not willing to overlook that just because they don't have a character yet. Other franchises like the AAA's though? They pump out new games on a regular basis, and those games sell millions in less than a month. Yeah, they've got plenty of content already, but if you were to give it a newcomer, you'd be adding a character from a very successful game that a lot of people would instantly recognize.

I don't think a new IP is what it takes to make an exciting character, and I don't think people care nearly as much about representation for new series as they claim they do unless they're trying to explain why third-parties are better. But who knows? Maybe I'm weird for thinking content like a BotW 2 stage or SwSh music would be just as hype, if not more hype than the stuff we'd get from some of the previously mentioned new IPs.

 

[slrigeigdew]

I might as well join in on the Nintendo Pass fun.

View attachment 271665

Yoooo Melee Link bros where you at?!?

 

[PeridotGX]

I might as well join in on the Nintendo Pass fun.

View attachment 271665

you have an F-Zero character and Link 4, but you also have one of the best Pokemon. This pass... makes me conflicted.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Did you just unironically add a fourth Link?

... Yeah... I kind of low key want Ocarina of Time Adult Link back to be honest. I don't like Link's tunic of the wild outfit and while Young Link being back is awesome, I'd like to play as his adult form. Plus I want to play as a Link that wears a hat and gauntlets.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

... Yeah... I kind of low key want Ocarina of Time Adult Link back to be honest. I don't like Link's tunic of the wild outfit and while Young Link being back is awesome, I'd like to play as his adult form. Plus I want to play as a Link that wears a hat and gauntlets.

Besides that, we don't have an adult Link with a Hookshot/Clawshot anymore. That's not replaceable with Young Link.

Admittedly it isn't the biggest difference altogether, but I do feel like we're missing the classic adult Link now.

 

[slrigeigdew]

... Yeah... I kind of low key want Ocarina of Time Adult Link back to be honest. I don't like Link's tunic of the wild outfit and while Young Link being back is awesome, I'd like to play as his adult form. Plus I want to play as a Link that wears a hat and gauntlets.

I respect your honesty. I thought it was because you wanted adult Link with a grappling hook and regualr bombs again.

 

[AceAttorney9000]

You ever kinda just want Nintendo to reveal everything at once?

I don’t know, kinda random thought.

Depends on how they handle it. I wouldn't mind if they just gave us one big trailer where the identities of all the DLC characters are revealed (with gameplay presentations coming at a later date), but they'd have to pull out all the stops and make it a really cool trailer.

For comparison, it could be a trailer where all the characters in question are fighting each other, like the trailer for Injustice 2's third Fighter Pack...

... or they could take a page from the reveal of Street Fighter V: Arcade Edition and that game's Season 3 DLC characters, and go for a beautiful-looking "cinematic" approach, where the new characters are revealed in their own little scenes.

 

[SKX31]

Yoooo Melee Link bros where you at?!?

Don't forget he's also the Soul Calibur 2 Link. Lot more kicking and projectile stances.

But then, would SC2 Link be a first, second or third party moveset? I'm tempted to answer all three at the same time.

 

[Will]

As boring as things might get I'd rather they reveal once in an while. It makes things more fun such as discussing who could get in and be next.

haha yeah fun times

*war flashbacks of flame wars over a half-naked robot girl for five months*

 

[Spongeboob]

Wait who started the Nintendo Pass thingy?

Spoiler: CP#6

Max Brass from ARMS

Spoiler: CP#7

Rex from Xenoblade Chronicles 2

Spoiler: CP#8

Euden from Dragalia Lost

Spoiler: CP#9

Porky from Mother 2/EarthBound

Spoiler: CP#10

Seliph from Fire Emblem: Genealogy of the Holy War

Spoiler: CP#11

Mario from Super Mario Bros.

Spoiler: NOTES

If Spirits do, indeed, "deconfirm", then the following will change.

• Rex is to be replaced by Marshadow
• Seliph is to be replaced by Arvis
• Mario is to be replaced by Gooigi

 

[SmashChu]

Imagine this being the Season 2 Pass.

Spring Man
Paper Mario
Sylux
Gen 8 Pokemon
Rex
Waluigi

Personally, I'd be very happy with it. I think there is also a lot of variety in the characters themselves. Only issue is Paper Mario and Waluigi is overkill.

I think you'd still want a few new series two. Nintendo does have a lot to choose from. Dragalia Lost, Rhythm Heaven, Sin and Punishment (Saki's AT is missing), Ring Fit Adventure, even a classic series. I think having one or two more new series would go a long way to spicing up the list.

 

[I.D.]

haha yeah fun times

*war flashbacks of flame wars over a half-naked robot girl for five months*

But enough about 2B

 

[Will]

But enough about 2B

i was talking about kos-mos

 

[Garteam]

Spoiler: Beeg Jonespost

Kinda seems like there's some fabricated idea of people only liking 3rd parties because they're non-Nintendo, and disliking 1st parties because they're Nintendo, when it's actually pretty simple.

I can only speak from my own perspective, but I'll share it. I've said before that I can be steadily convinced of a character by seeing gameplay. I quickly shut up about Robin after seeing their gameplay for Smash Wii U. That was after previously saying, "No, it's gonna be Chrom!"

I've played at least one of each series with a playable character. I have an idea of what/who the characters are that folks want from Nintendo games. Bandanna Waddle Dee, Waluigi, a Gen 8 Pokemon, Zelda. To me, there really isn't anything inherently wrong with wanting a character from those series if that's what you're into.

However, with the way the DLC has been handled historically...it's kinda easy for me to understand why folks may not be especially excited considering the circumstances of that pass, and the potential for an actual pass like that to exist.

Mario has: 16 stages, 9 characters (though Yoshi, Wario, DK, Diddy, and K.Rool could be tangentially related, but I'd argue DK is a bit more removed imo), 106 music tracks, 13 items, 4 Assist Trophies (6 if you consider Klap Trap and Ashley)

Pokemon has: 7 stages, 10 characters, 33 Music tracks, 2 items (55 Pokeball Pokemon NPCs)

Zelda has: 9 stages, 6 characters, (45 music tracks) 6 items, 4 Assist Trophies

Kirby has: 5 stages, 3 characters, (38 music tracks), 4 Items, 2 Assist Trophies

Fire Emblem has: 3 stages,8 characters, 52 music tracks, 1 item, 3 Assist Trophies

That makes 37% of stages, 44% of characters, 28% of music, ~30% of items, and 22% of Assist Trophies. The numbers shoot up just a tad if you include Yoshi, Wario, and DK items. Nearly half the roster comes from these 5 series, over 1/3 of the stages come from these 5 series, over 1/4 of the nearly 1,000 tracks of music come from these 5 series, just under 1/3 of all items comes from these 5 series, and Assist Trophies are just under 1/4 of the total.

Mind you, there are 36 unique series with playable characters in Smash. 5 of them make up a significant portion of the content of the game. Clearly, some have more than others.

Here the thing though...the 3rd party characters that folks talk about. Let's think about some of them...we've got Dante, Crash Bandicoot, Travis Touchdown, 2B, Ace Attorney, or Tekken...just to name a few.

Devil May Cry: 0 Characters, 0 stages, 0 music tracks, 0 ATs, 0 items

NieR Automata: 0 Characters, 0 stages, 0 music tracks, 0 ATs, 0 items

Crash Bandicoot: 0 Characters, 0 stages, 0 music tracks, 0 ATs, 0 items

No More Heroes: 0 Characters, 0 stages, 0 music tracks, 0 ATs, 0 items

Ace Attorney: 0 Characters, 0 stages, 0 music tracks, 0 ATs, 0 items

Tekken: 0 Characters, 0 stages, 0 music tracks, 0 ATs, 0 items

You get the point.

Now, I understand Smash started as a Nintendo crossover. It still is a Nintendo crossover. However, the series itself has grown, and 3rd party characters are a major reason for that. Smash isn't what it is today without 3rd party companies and developers. Nintendo isn't what it is today with 3rd party companies and developers. Smash has become something that stokes the crossover dreams of fans, so it's no wonder fans will think, "Oh boy, I wonder which new series will cross over next!"

It's like getting an Ice Cream cone with 9 scoops on it, and while the next person says, "Excuse me sir, can I get 1 scoop?" and then the person with 9 scoops say, "But wait, what about mine?"

There's nothing wrong with wanting more, but understand that others may not be as open to it when their favorite/most desired has literally nothing in Smash. Nearly every major Nintendo protagonist supporting crew member, and villain is in Smash, so it's not all that surprising that protagonists of larger/popular non-Nintendo series are getting added over lower tier Nintendo characters. That's not something that I'm placing my bias in, it's just where we're at.

That was...a lot to type. Just some food for thought. Mario, Zelda, Pokemon...they are among my favorites. I grew up with them. They're part of who I am. But I've played a lot of games over the years, and at least for me...considering the amount of content we already have, I'd be much more excited to see what we get from something like Devil May Cry as I would be seeing 10 more Mario songs added on top of the 100 we already have, you know?

I understand what you're saying, but I think your ice cream analogy is a little misrepresentative of the situation. We just had four third parties added to the game last year. Of the 18 newcomers added to Smash Ultimate, 7 have been third party characters. This number shrinks further when you just count non-echo newcomers, with an 8-5 ratio between Nintendo and Non-Nintendo characters. That's an extremely generous split, all things considered. It's less that one set of fans have 9 scoops and the other have none, and more that one set has 6 and the other has 4.

In terms of supporting content, yeah, Nintendo generally has it better. However, that goes beyond "Sakurai doesn't want to share the toys with new companies and characters". First, Nintendo franchises have simply had longer to establish roots and supporting content in Smash. Many of the stages, music tracks, assists, and items were built up across multiple entries. This also applies to third parties as well. Sonic has a lot more supporting content than Persona because Sonic built up those supporting materials up across 12 years and three entries in Smash.

Likewise, getting supporting content for third parties can also be a lot more difficult than for Nintendo franchises as you have to deal directly with licensing. As such, given it's far easier to acquire supporting content for Nintendo, it shouldn't be surprising that Nintendo has more supporting content. Getting rid of a Kirby stage or 5 Zelda songs isn't going to translate to another Mega Man stage or a 5 new Final Fantasy songs, it's just gonna mean we have one less stage and 5 less songs.

It's also important to look at which franchises make up the third you've outlined: Mario, Pokemon, Zelda, Kirby, and Fire Emblem. The first three are Nintendo's biggest brands and the series that have the most frequent releases. Not only does that create a strong incentive to include lots of content from those series given it will resonate with the highest number of people, there's also a lot unique content you can include from those series. Over 20 Mario games released between 2014 and 2018, so that's a lot of new stuff for Mario. Kirby is in a similar boat, being a popular brand with constant new entries to pull from, but it also has the benefit of sharing a creator with Super Smash Bros. This lets much of Kirby's supplementary content skip having the original teams and creators approve it, as the original creator made it (consequently, that's why much of Kirby's content in Smash is based on the Sakurai games, they're the easiest to grab from). Using Fire Emblem is honestly a bit misleading as it really doesn't have an abundance of supporting content, it just has a lot of playable characters. Earthbound also has four stages, one less assist trophy, and two more items, but no one would say Earthbound is taking more than its fair share.

I also don't think focusing solely on series with nothing in Smash to try and please as many people as possible is a very practicable solution. There's always going to be a bigger fish and somewhere else to go. I mean, look at what people say when a big character gets announced in: "This is it, Smash has reached its peak", "We'll never top this", "I'm never asking Sakurai for anything ever again". A week later, people are back on the forums with new requests. Just using the list you provided, at least one of those characters isn't getting into Smash Ultimate, simply because there's six of them and there's only five character slots left. In the absolute base case scenario, one of those groups is gonna be disappointed. It's impossible to please everyone.

There's also the issue that exclusively catering to new series isn't a guarantee that everyone will be happy. There's a lot of characters in pre-existing franchises that are heavily requested and would be left out, leading to disappointed fans. This isn't even a problem exclusive to big Nintendo franchises, it applies to the third parties already in Smash as well. Want Tails, Chun-Li, or Sephiroth? Tough luck. Supporting characters from franchises already in Smash getting in may also have a bigger impact than a character from a new franchise, because there's a stronger overlap between fans of that character and fans of Smash Bros. Bandana Waddle Dee getting in Smash would be a big deal for the average Kirby fan, because it's highly likely that has played and cares about Smash Bros due to being introduced by its Kirby content. By comparison, someone like Captain Price getting in Smash may not be a big deal to the average Call of Duty fan, as there's a decent chance they've never played Smash Bros before or simply don't care about it that much.

 

[Cosmic77]

But enough about 2B

i was talking about kos-mos

There's also Pyra.

It's sad how many characters that vague statement can apply to.

 

[I.D.]

There's also Pyra.

It's sad how many characters that vague statement can apply to.

It only applies to characters I don't approve of.

 

[Will]

There's also Pyra.

It's sad how many characters that vague statement can apply to.

implying people thought rex still had a chance in FP1

they didn't, right?

 

[chocolatejr9]

implying people thought rex still had a chance in FP1

they didn't, right?

There were a few people, yeah. But I think most people agree he's back on the table for FP2, depending on the direction.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Maybe I'm wrong, but despite the constant complaints about certain franchises having too much content, I feel like people would ultimately be a lot happier with a pass full of characters from extremely popular franchises that are already on the roster than one that's full of characters from noticeably smaller franchises that were added just because they don't have a character yet. You could even toss in Isaac, and I still don't think people would be content with this pass.

I feel like this is misconstruing what other people are saying. There are plenty of series that are both extremely popular and don't have a character yet. Most of the popularly speculated third party characters come from prominent series. Devil May Cry, which has made a triumphant return with DMCV, Nier, which is getting both a mobile game and a complete rebuild of the original game, No More Heroes, a cult classic getting a much awaited third game, Tekken, one of the largest fighting games of all time, the list goes on and on.

Even among the examples you've listed, Ring Fit Adventure has experienced significant shortages, and is going for upwards of $200 online so clearly people know of the character, Style Savvy is an underrated casual series in Nintendo's lineup that saw constant releases through the DS and 3DS' lifespans, Astral Chain outperformed Platinum's expectations, and Captain Toad got a 3DS release and DLC a year after the Switch port, so clearly it's important.

Being from an "extremely popular series" (which seems like a rather loose criteria created primarily for exclusionary purposes) and not having a character in Smash aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Ring Fit Adventure, Astral Chain, Captain Toad, and Style Savvy are all examples of franchises that would receive a significantly more positive reaction than ARMS? This is the pass that would make people sigh in relief that we didn't get more Mario, Zelda, or the dreaded Pokemon #11? I feel like I don't even need to explain why some of these would be devisive.

Maybe I'm wrong, but despite the constant complaints about certain franchises having too much content, I feel like people would ultimately be a lot happier with a pass full of characters from extremely popular franchises that are already on the roster than one that's full of characters from noticeably smaller franchises that were added just because they don't have a character yet. You could even toss in Isaac, and I still don't think people would be content with this pass.

You're focusing so much on the franchise itself and its lack of content that you can't step back and look at the bigger picture. As much as I like Ring Fit and Style Savvy, they have very limited appeal, and I'm not willing to overlook that just because they don't have a character yet. Other franchises like the AAA's though? They pump out new games on a regular basis, and those games sell millions in less than a month. Yeah, they've got plenty of content already, but if you were to give it a newcomer, you'd be adding a character from a very successful game that a lot of people would instantly recognize.

I don't think a new IP is what it takes to make an exciting character, and I don't think people care nearly as much about representation for new series as they claim they do unless they're trying to explain why third-parties are better. But who knows? Maybe I'm weird for thinking content like a BotW 2 stage or SwSh music would be just as hype, if not more hype than the stuff we'd get from some of the previously mentioned new IPs.

Did I say every single of those needed to be in the same pass to make people sigh in relief? No I didn't, I just listed off several examples of new and successful first parties you could turn to for additional content. I'm not so tone deaf as to think Style Savvy wouldn't stir up some people for example, but the other 3? All were better received than ARMS critically and from a community standpoint. Astral Chain didn't set the world on fire, but most people seem to have walked away from it with positive impressions, which is more than I can say for ARMS (seriously, do people just all collectively forget how much people complained about ARMS' lack of content or lack of ability to retain their attention in 2017, because I haven't).

You're not going to sit here and tell me Ring Fit Adventure has limited appeal are you? It's sold 2.7 million as a brand new and more expensive IP, and is literally going for $100 or more over MSRP because people want to play and own the game so badly, so it would have sold even more if Nintendo could actually manage to keep them in stock. That includes the "dreaded casuals" and hardcore gamers alike, with it generally be referred to as Nintendo's biggest surprise hit of 2019. But you're seriously here trying to argue against its appeal just to support your personal preferences.

The point about going deeper into rosters is that there aren't very many options left on the table that are more popular like. Sure, Mario can sell all kinds of copies at the end of the day, but who's left besides Waluigi and Toad? At that point you've literally exhausted all the major spinoff characters and primary characters with a maybe Pauline down the line in play if Nintendo invests in her after Odyssey. After Dixie Kong and Bandanna Dee, where do you even go with either DK or Kirby? That's the point, we're down to the wire in terms of larger first parties from existing franchises. At some point you do exhaust that list if you don't turn outside of the major franchises. Zelda has no major recurring characters outside of like Tingle and Impa on a technicality. Really this only stands to benefit Pokemon, and even then, it arguably stands to benefit primarily the earlier generations people still have such fond memories of since you can make more arguments for like Gengar and stuff.

Now Nintendo can make entirely new all stars for their major series, they just did that with Isabelle in New Leaf and she turned into a Nintendo icon that immediately made it into Smash. That's another route to go, but like, she was also just the second Animal Crossing character and her success is largely unparalleled for long running series, and especially for Nintendo who seems to struggle to add characters to many of their larger and more long running series TBH.

But even then, we saw people complain about Isabelle as another Animal Crossing character in the fan base, and I've seen plenty of people have muted reactions to most of the additional characters getting in from heavily represented franchises. From casual fans I've heard the "Another Pokemon/Fire Emblem character, really/of course?" or the "Is Daisy that big of a deal?" Sure, those are anecdotal examples, but you're seriously underselling how much the presence of any franchise can do for Smash. When a character comes from existing franchise, they're mostly just bringing themselves into Smash at this point and there will be people to enjoy every single one of them no doubt. All characters have fans of course. But new franchises are something different, you're not just bringing in a brand new and potentially super fun character, you're bringing back the memory of that game and your experience with it wholeheartedly.

The memory of when you first played Crash Bandicoot on your friend's PS1 and thought it was hot ****. The memory of your friend owning Tekken Tag Tournament and getting beaten by him every single time because you didn't own the game. The memory of someone showing me Halo for the first time and making me realize I needed a Xbox as soon as possible because I was having so much fun. When you add new franchises, you're adding more than just the character at that point. You're adding a new universe and new set of experiences. Sure, I have attachments to Sceptile as MY POKEMON from Emerald back in the day and I'd enjoy seeing him... but he's not some huge addition to the game and I've already gotten tons of Pokemon nostalgia in Smash. There's more opportunity for new franchises to bring in new experiences to the Smash universe across the board. It's fine to think additions in existing franchises can be hype (though there's not much in the way of saying that a BOTW2 stage means literally nothing at this point, so I don't even see how you can be hype about something that doesn't even exist, but more power to you I guess), but it's also worth investing in why other people want to see new franchises in the game and what they mean on a fundamental level beyond deepening existing representation. Especially the trends have pushed towards new franchises and we see more vocal displays of support for new franchises and polls that tend to reflect more third parties these days. You're damn right I'm focusing on the franchises themselves, because to me and many others, that means a hell of a lot more than you're giving it credit for.

And playing the sales card feels like a good way to kneecap your entire argument when it invites third parties back into the conversation since they get to very often occupy the space of being incredibly successful and far reaching titles with tons of fans that are also brand new to Smash, thus kind of grabbing from the best of the both worlds. It's not a coincidence Smash has relied so heavily on third parties in recent years in comparison to its origins.

 

[PeridotGX]

Wait who started the Nintendo Pass thingy?

Spoiler: CP#6

View attachment 271672
Max Brass from ARMS

Spoiler: CP#7

View attachment 271670
Rex from Xenoblade Chronicles 2

Spoiler: CP#8

View attachment 271669
Euden from Dragalia Lost

Spoiler: CP#9

View attachment 271666
Porky from Mother 2/EarthBound

Spoiler: CP#10

View attachment 271671
Seliph from Fire Emblem: Genealogy of the Holy War

Spoiler: CP#11

View attachment 271668
Mario from Super Mario Bros.

Spoiler: NOTES

If Spirits do, indeed, "deconfirm", then the following will change.

• Rex is to be replaced by Marshadow
• Seliph is to be replaced by Arvis
• Mario is to be replaced by Gooigi

this list is ****, they will never add Mario to Smash

 

[Will]

this list is ****, they will never add Mario to Smash

They added K. Rool and Ridley, it's only a matter of time. We just need to hope Square isn't stingy with the character...

 

[TheCJBrine]

My personal Nintendo Pass:

1. Spring Man
2. Geno
3. Porky Minch
4. Skull Kid
5. Chibi-Robo
6. Waluigi

and plenty more including Toad, Isaac, King Boo, Ninten, Kamek, Gengar, Raichu, Meowth & Team Rocket, some other ‘mons, Wart, Midna, Tingle, Bandana Dee, Marx, Adeleine, Dark Matter, Paper Mario, Mallow, Boshi, Tom Nook...

dang it I like too many to not feel bad about not putting some in the pass

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Did I say every single of those needed to be in the same pass to make people sigh in relief? No I didn't, I just listed off several examples of new and successful first parties you could turn to for additional content. I'm not so tone deaf as to think Style Savvy wouldn't stir up some people for example, but the other 3? All were better received than ARMS critically and from a community standpoint. Astral Chain didn't set the world on fire, but most people seem to have walked away from it with positive impressions, which is more than I can say for ARMS (seriously, do people just all collectively forget how much people complained about ARMS' lack of content or lack of ability to retain their attention in 2017, because I haven't).

You're not going to sit here and tell me Ring Fit Adventure has limited appeal are you? It's sold 2.7 million as a brand new and more expensive IP, and is literally going for $100 or more over MSRP because people want to play and own the game so badly, so it would have sold even more if Nintendo could actually manage to keep them in stock. That includes the "dreaded casuals" and hardcore gamers alike, with it generally be referred to as Nintendo's biggest surprise hit of 2019. But you're seriously here trying to argue against its appeal just to support your personal preferences.

The point about going deeper into rosters is that there aren't very many options left on the table that are more popular like. Sure, Mario can sell all kinds of copies at the end of the day, but who's left besides Waluigi and Toad? At that point you've literally exhausted all the major spinoff characters and primary characters with a maybe Pauline down the line in play if Nintendo invests in her after Odyssey. After Dixie Kong and Bandanna Dee, where do you even go with either DK or Kirby? That's the point, we're down to the wire in terms of larger first parties from existing franchises. At some point you do exhaust that list if you don't turn outside of the major franchises. Zelda has no major recurring characters outside of like Tingle and Impa on a technicality. Really this only stands to benefit Pokemon, and even then, it arguably stands to benefit primarily the earlier generations people still have such fond memories of since you can make more arguments for like Gengar and stuff.

Now Nintendo can make entirely new all stars for their major series, they just did that with Isabelle in New Leaf and she turned into a Nintendo icon that immediately made it into Smash. That's another route to go, but like, she was also just the second Animal Crossing character and her success is largely unparalleled for long running series, and especially for Nintendo who seems to struggle to add characters to many of their larger and more long running series TBH.

But even then, we saw people complain about Isabelle as another Animal Crossing character in the fan base, and I've seen plenty of people have muted reactions to most of the additional characters getting in from heavily represented franchises. From casual fans I've heard the "Another Pokemon/Fire Emblem character, really/of course?" or the "Is Daisy that big of a deal?" Sure, those are anecdotal examples, but you're seriously underselling how much the presence of any franchise can do for Smash. When a character comes from existing franchise, they're mostly just bringing themselves into Smash at this point and there will be people to enjoy every single one of them no doubt. All characters have fans of course. But new franchises are something different, you're not just bringing in a brand new and potentially super fun character, you're bringing back the memory of that game and your experience with it wholeheartedly.

The memory of when you first played Crash Bandicoot on your friend's PS1 and thought it was hot ****. The memory of your friend owning Tekken Tag Tournament and getting beaten by him every single time because you didn't own the game. The memory of someone showing me Halo for the first time and making me realize I needed a Xbox as soon as possible because I was having so much fun. When you add new franchises, you're adding more than just the character at that point. You're adding a new universe and new set of experiences. Sure, I have attachments to Sceptile as MY POKEMON from Emerald back in the day and I'd enjoy seeing him... but he's not some huge addition to the game and I've already gotten tons of Pokemon nostalgia in Smash. There's more opportunity for new franchises to bring in new experiences to the Smash universe across the board. It's fine to think additions in existing franchises can be hype (though there's not much in the way of saying that a BOTW2 stage means literally nothing at this point, so I don't even see how you can be hype about something that doesn't even exist, but more power to you I guess), but it's also worth investing in why other people want to see new franchises in the game and what they mean on a fundamental level beyond deepening existing representation. Especially the trends have pushed towards new franchises and we see more vocal displays of support for new franchises and polls that tend to reflect more third parties these days. You're damn right I'm focusing on the franchises themselves, because to me and many others, that means a hell of a lot more than you're giving it credit for.

And playing the sales card feels like a good way to kneecap your entire argument when it invites third parties back into the conversation since they get to very often occupy the space of being incredibly successful and far reaching titles with tons of fans that are also brand new to Smash, thus kind of grabbing from the best of the both worlds. It's not a coincidence Smash has relied so heavily on third parties in recent years in comparison to its origins.

The best part is that I kinda look like Jake Gyllenhaal.
Heh.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

You ever kinda just want Nintendo to reveal everything at once?

I don’t know, kinda random thought.

yes

i want to leave

please let me go

i just want to go home please sakurai let me go home

l̷̨̳̰̞̣̫̯̳̰̻̬̺̭̙̮̐̄̔̾͊̈́̾͗̓̊̿͐̽̏̕͘͜͝͝ę̵̞̭̗̜͕̟̯͕̯͖͚̺̤̘̖̣͈̰̣̱͎̰͇̖̼̫͉̠͈̦̟̩̙̈́̿͌̽̒́̈́́͊̈͑͆́͐͊̊̃̿̈͐͊̓̓̆̈͋̚͜͜͝ͅẗ̷̛̹̙̜͎͔͚̬̳̦̻̲̻͔̣͙̳̠̉̾͐͛͊͐̑͂̋̆͆̉̅̈́͗͒͑̆͊͗̑̈̄̊͒̊̂̔̊̉̅̒̚̕͜͜͠͠ͅ ̷̧̨̡̞͉͖͙͚̥͈͚͔̳̼͙͍̥̮̘̆̌̑͗̈͜ͅm̴̡̢̨̧̡̫͖͙͕͎̪̦̩͇̭͚̥̳̠̤̪͕̖͉̞͕̺͕̤̲̹̲̮͚̉̇̿̏͆͋̍͌̎̂͌̑̊́̑̏̔̇̚͘ͅé̷̬̹̺̟̠̞͖̟̹̞̬̣̰̟̪̯̫̻͓͔̽̊̈́͗̅̿̓͗͌̚̕͜ͅ ̵̢̨̨̡̨̡͉̰͕̠̝̯͕̲͍̩̭̟͖͓̹̟͓͖̱̲̟̞̞͕͕̀̍̌̾͗̽̀̂͛͐̇͒̎́́̑̓͊̇́̌̕̚͜͝G̶̡̛̝̻͙̤͉̪̹͇̭͈̠͉̙̙̥͇̥̗̻̰̗̅̇͛̒̄̋̊̍̓̊̇̃̏̋͝͠ͅƠ̶̢̳̥͔̲̳͈̬͓̟̤͓̭͓̮̹͔̙̤̱̜̾̈́̋̒͌̑͑͒̋̏̀͆̍̀̃̄̃̍̍́̑̐̿͛̾̐̎̾̀̕̚͠ͅͅƠ̶̜̫͓̻̋͋̈̎́͋̔̈̋̽͛̅̎̓̏̍̋̑̍̚͠O̴̡̡̗̘͖̮̺̟͓̪̭̼̲̞͙͕̲͙͍͒̅̃̆̆̓̒̿̊͊͌͂͒̓͜ͅỎ̷̧̢̨̨̳͚͈̳͖͖̖̦̉̑̔̆̍̒͌̋͌̀͘̚͠͝ͅͅͅŌ̸̡̢̨̢̢̮̞̫̞̱̝̫̳̫̪̩̯̘͎̥̖̰̦͕̭͚͙̺̝̠͓̻̹͌̒̎͊̀̎̐̎̇̉̄͆̽̈̇́͗̑̀͌́̍̈́̈́̍̒́͋̐̚̚̚̚̕͘͝͝͝͠͝͝O̶͙͈͍̫̗̦̫̤̟̓̊͗͑̔̿͐̄̄̊̔̿̿̐̉͂̉̎̆̀̿̈́͑̅͛̆̊̀̏̈̎̍̒̕͘͘͜͝͝͝͠Ǫ̶̈́̅̐̄̓͂͋́̈́͗̆̀̀́͆̚͝͝͝Ơ̸̧̢̧̡̡̧̤̝͎͎̠͔̬͕̜͉͖̯̬͍͙̘̳̥̦̳̩̳̞̤͚͉̫̟̞̅̃̄̓͜Ǫ̶̧̛̛͚̟̝̼̳̪͈̠͓͇͚̯̖̩̩͉̮̘͔̩̥̤̩̤̠̤̙̯̭̦̯̲̀͆̄̓͑̅̾̐̎̏̊̎̋̕͜͠͠͠͠

 

[Cosmic77]

I feel like this is misconstruing what other people are saying. There are plenty of series that are both extremely popular and don't have a character yet. Most of the popularly speculated third party characters come from prominent series. Devil May Cry, which has made a triumphant return with DMCV, Nier, which is getting both a mobile game and a complete rebuild of the original game, No More Heroes, a cult classic getting a much awaited third game, Tekken, one of the largest fighting games of all time, the list goes. Even among the examples you've listed, Ring Fit Adventure has experienced significant shortages, and is going for upwards of $200 online, Style Savvy is an underrated casual series in Nintendo's lineup that saw constant releases through the DS and 3DS' lifespans, Astral Chain outperformed Platinum's expectations, and Captain Toad got a 3DS release and DLC a year after the Switch port, so clearly it's important.

Being from an "extremely popular series" (which seems like a rather loose criteria created primarily for exclusionary purposes) and not having a character in Smash aren't mutually exclusive.

His argument was that it makes sense why people wouldn't be excited for characters from franchises already on the roster.

If we're talking about third-parties, then yeah, but that's because we have twelve out of hundreds and hundreds of third-parties in Smash.

If we're talking about first-parties, then I strongly disagree. You could dig around and find dozens of franchises with a character that could work in Smash, but do I think many of them can compete with characters like Waluigi, Dixie, or BWD? Maybe a few, but overall not really. I like Ring Fit Trainee, but I don't think people will treat her kindly, as well as several others.

Did I say every single of those needed to be in the same pass to make people sigh in relief? No I didn't, I just listed off several examples of new and successful first parties you could turn to for additional content. I'm not so tone deaf as to think Style Savvy wouldn't stir up some people for example, but the other 3? All were better received than ARMS critically and from a community standpoint. Astral Chain didn't set the world on fire, but most people seem to have walked away from it with positive impressions, which is more than I can say for ARMS (seriously, do people just all collectively forget how much people complained about ARMS' lack of content or lack of ability to retain their attention in 2017, because I haven't).

You're not going to sit here and tell me Ring Fit Adventure has limited appeal are you? It's sold 2.7 million as a brand new and more expensive IP, and is literally going for $100 or more over MSRP because people want to play and own the game so badly, so it would have sold even more if Nintendo could actually manage to keep them in stock. That includes the "dreaded casuals" and hardcore gamers alike, with it generally be referred to as Nintendo's biggest surprise hit of 2019. But you're seriously here trying to argue against its appeal just to support your personal preferences.

The point about going deeper into rosters is that there aren't very many options left on the table that are more popular like. Sure, Mario can sell all kinds of copies at the end of the day, but who's left besides Waluigi and Toad? At that point you've literally exhausted all the major spinoff characters and primary characters with a maybe Pauline down the line in play if Nintendo invests in her after Odyssey. After Dixie Kong and Bandanna Dee, where do you even go with either DK or Kirby? That's the point, we're down to the wire in terms of larger first parties from existing franchises. At some point you do exhaust that list if you don't turn outside of the major franchises. Zelda has no major recurring characters outside of like Tingle and Impa on a technicality. Really this only stands to benefit Pokemon, and even then, it arguably stands to benefit primarily the earlier generations people still have such fond memories of since you can make more arguments for like Gengar and stuff.

Now Nintendo can make entirely new all stars for their major series, they just did that with Isabelle in New Leaf and she turned into a Nintendo icon that immediately made it into Smash. That's another route to go, but like, she was also just the second Animal Crossing character and her success is largely unparalleled for long running series, and especially for Nintendo who seems to struggle to add characters to many of their larger and more long running series TBH.

But even then, we saw people complain about Isabelle as another Animal Crossing character in the fan base, and I've seen plenty of people have muted reactions to most of the additional characters getting in from heavily represented franchises. From casual fans I've heard the "Another Pokemon/Fire Emblem character, really/of course?" or the "Is Daisy that big of a deal?" Sure, those are anecdotal examples, but you're seriously underselling how much the presence of any franchise can do for Smash. When a character comes from existing franchise, they're mostly just bringing themselves into Smash at this point and there will be people to enjoy every single one of them no doubt. All characters have fans of course. But new franchises are something different, you're not just bringing in a brand new and potentially super fun character, you're bringing back the memory of that game and your experience with it wholeheartedly.

The memory of when you first played Crash Bandicoot on your friend's PS1 and thought it was hot ****. The memory of your friend owning Tekken Tag Tournament and getting beaten by him every single time because you didn't own the game. The memory of someone showing me Halo for the first time and making me realize I needed a Xbox as soon as possible because I was having so much fun. When you add new franchises, you're adding more than just the character at that point. You're adding a new universe and new set of experiences. Sure, I have attachments to Sceptile as MY POKEMON from Emerald back in the day and I'd enjoy seeing him... but he's not some huge addition to the game and I've already gotten tons of Pokemon nostalgia in Smash. There's more opportunity for new franchises to bring in new experiences to the Smash universe across the board. It's fine to think additions in existing franchises can be hype (though there's not much in the way of saying that a BOTW2 stage means literally nothing at this point, so I don't even see how you can be hype about something that doesn't even exist, but more power to you I guess), but it's also worth investing in why other people want to see new franchises in the game and what they mean on a fundamental level beyond deepening existing representation. Especially the trends have pushed towards new franchises and we see more vocal displays of support for new franchises and polls that tend to reflect more third parties these days. You're damn right I'm focusing on the franchises themselves, because to me and many others, that means a hell of a lot more than you're giving it credit for.

And playing the sales card feels like a good way to kneecap your entire argument when it invites third parties back into the conversation since they get to very often occupy the space of being incredibly successful and far reaching titles with tons of fans that are also brand new to Smash, thus kind of grabbing from the best of the both worlds. It's not a coincidence Smash has relied so heavily on third parties in recent years in comparison to its origins.

Just last week people were complaining about the concept of Ring Fit Trainee being too similar to WFT. Captain Toad should be considered a Mario character by all accounts, but if we're going to act like he's from a new franchise, you should know there's gonna be quite a few people bitter that he's not Waluigi or Geno. Then there's Style Savvy, which would be more of a nonsensical addition. I can't imagine how people would treat a character like that any nicer than they did ROB, WFT, and PP.

That's my point. You act like it's completely sensible for franchises with characters already on the roster and (for whatever reason) ARMS specifically to be met with resistance, but then you provide several examples of new franchises that have problems of their own.

 

[Schnee117]

I feel like there's a huge disconnect in that some arguments are being taken to apply to broader groups than actually intended and in turn, any and all nuance is lost.