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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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Megadoomer

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People just call him door-kun because he has no personality. There's no other reason for it.
Good to know. (well, not good to know that he has no personality, but good to know that it's not a spoiler - I was concerned that there'd be some dramatic moment involving a door, or he becomes fused to a door, or something like that)
 
D

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Unless they decide to announce said ARMS fighter much sooner, we still have 5-6 weeks left until that and FP7 potentially are revealed.

Not much to speculate unless something gets leaked too. :/
Yeah right...right when they just extended quarantine in my place for the THIRD TIME.

We're getting out by Christmas at this rate.


We just had a big conversation that wasn't a game. It just ended half a page ago. So now...

It's game time!

**** your sarcasm to hell.

Back to writing my novel.
 
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Mamboo07

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Mostly for feel. The wizard outfit is cool, but it still looks like a gunner. Besides, their specials don't all have to be projectiles. You could do some pretty cool things with it by giving them utility spells. The Mii Fighters love ripping off other characters right? Why not make some summoner specials that use slightly modified variants of Phantom Slash and Luma Shot, with the latter giving you a temporary companion.


We just had a big conversation that wasn't a game. It just ended half a page ago. So now...

It's game time!

Spring Mario

Boogaloo.
Mamboo

Soup.
 

7NATOR

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I guess this does pertain to future discussion

So i know people Are Skeptical about Fatmanonice and his info. Well apprantly he does have at least a few credibitlity points. he talked about a Rumor of 6 Characters after FP5 before it was announced we get 6 characters

https://smashboards.com/threads/geno-♥♪-return-of-the-starsend-savior.446378/page-2134#post-23756937

Granted he puts his own Speculation into it, but there might be some truth to what he saying, even if most of his info might be bait or something
 

MBRedboy31

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Mostly for feel. The wizard outfit is cool, but it still looks like a gunner. Besides, their specials don't all have to be projectiles. You could do some pretty cool things with it by giving them utility spells. The Mii Fighters love ripping off other characters right? Why not make some summoner specials that use slightly modified variants of Phantom Slash and Luma Shot, with the latter giving you a temporary companion
One idea I just thought of is that some of their special attacks would make their staff weapon separate from them (with the actual attacks being dependent on your custom special choices.) The separated, levitating staff could act as a stage control trap until it is recalled, and the state of being separated would change Mii Mage’s normals (mainly to have less range, since they’d cast magic from their bare hands rather than from the tip of the staff, which would change their spacing game significantly since it’d allow them to fight at point-blank more efficiently.) The attacks would have very similar animations, but the magical explosions or whatever would occur closer to their body.
 

DarthEnderX

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On that note, I don't know why people keep clamoring for a Mii Mage since magic spells are functionally identical to Mii gunner projectiles.
About as functionally identical as swords are to fists.

Is it because of the wand?
It's because there's about a million wizards in video games, which could get representation as a Mii costume.

It's kind of an issue with fighting games. Magic isn't really different from "projectiles" or "elemental physical blows" at some points.
Depends on the spell.

Look at Hero's spell list. Is Heal a projectile? Is Oomph or Zoom or Kaclang?
 
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SmashChu

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Okay, so I saw a Twitter post, and it got me curious. Assuming promotions are a thing this pass, who do you think is more likely: Rex or Isaac?
Rex. Xenoblade 2 is far more recent so it give it a leg up. Also, easier to upgrade a costume than an assist trophy.
If I'm Gonna be honest, If Geno gets in, I'm gonna be worried for Waluigi. It's bad enough that a Piranha Plant got in over Waluigi (Not that i hate Plant, just saying), if Geno, who's owned by a 3rd party, gets in over Waluigi, and Waluigi isn't revealed along with Geno, I think that would be the ultimate answer of saying that Waluigi won't be Playable for the forseeable future
Waluigi's popularity was something that arose after the roster was decided, so he was never in the running, per say. Now it's a different story as these characters were chosen after Ultimate's release.

I think Cosmic77 Cosmic77 said it well already. Geno, to me, feels like a Sans situation. They know he's popular but they would never add him as a full fledged character likely due to his limited exposure. Also, Sakurai talked a big game about wanting Geno but that really hasn't come to pass. Geno fans bring this up but despite Sakurai saying he'd like to add him, he didn't when given the chance. I think Geno is something Sakurai has passed by.
 

GoodGrief741

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Okay, so I saw a Twitter post, and it got me curious. Assuming promotions are a thing this pass, who do you think is more likely: Rex or Isaac?

Before anyone asks, the post in question was speculating we could get one of them, but not both. Note that the keyword is "speculating". Also, please refrain from arguing about it. We just got done with ANOTHER Geno debate...
For now, Rex. Dude really benefits from Sakurai apparently going back on ideas he couldn't get into basegame, he's highly popular worldwide, Xenoblade 2 can still benefit from a late promotion and apparently they're adding links to it in Xenoblade DE.

Ask me again in a month though.
I don't take jokes. I take them seriously.

Watch your words when you're with this person, okay?
Good to see some things never change.
Rex. Xenoblade 2 is far more recent so it give it a leg up. Also, easier to upgrade a costume than an assist trophy.

Waluigi's popularity was something that arose after the roster was decided, so he was never in the running, per say. Now it's a different story as these characters were chosen after Ultimate's release.

I think Cosmic77 Cosmic77 said it well already. Geno, to me, feels like a Sans situation. They know he's popular but they would never add him as a full fledged character likely due to his limited exposure. Also, Sakurai talked a big game about wanting Geno but that really hasn't come to pass. Geno fans bring this up but despite Sakurai saying he'd like to add him, he didn't when given the chance. I think Geno is something Sakurai has passed by.
Waluigi was popular long before 2015, what are you on about?

And I'll Geno lacking exposure due to how long ago his game came out, but Sans? Lacks exposure? Huh?
 

pupNapoleon

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About as functionally identical as swords are to fists.


It's because there's about a million wizards in video games, which could get representation as a Mii costume.

Depends on the spell.

Look at Hero's spell list. Is Heal a projectile? Is Oomph or Zoom or Kaclang?
All great points.

I suppose it would be great to have a new Mii class introduced- as long as they introduced it with many Mii Upgraded costumes.
That's the only way Mii's are of any value, from my eyes.
And if that slot gave us a bunch of upgraded costumes, then I would see it.

What upgrades would that be?
Black Mage seems a given.
Perhaps Vaati.
Kamek?

Does this introduce the idea that perhaps they would have a hover/glide instead of a run? I think that could be great.
And some animations could then utilize a broom.
 
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chocolatejr9

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For now, Rex. Dude really benefits from Sakurai apparently going back on ideas he couldn't get into basegame, he's highly popular worldwide, Xenoblade 2 can still benefit from a late promotion and apparently they're adding links to it in Xenoblade DE.

Ask me again in a month though.
Note to self: ask GoodGrief741 GoodGrief741 in a month if Rex is still more likely than Isaac.
 

pinshadow

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Okay, so I saw a Twitter post, and it got me curious. Assuming promotions are a thing this pass, who do you think is more likely: Rex or Isaac?

Before anyone asks, the post in question was speculating we could get one of them, but not both. Note that the keyword is "speculating". Also, please refrain from arguing about it. We just got done with ANOTHER Geno debate...
Rex, he's pretty much the only upgrade I see as plausible aside from Geno or Waluigi. I'm only really expecting 2 upgrades, maaaybe 3, and I'm expecting all of them to front end the pass. It just makes the most sense, the first party characters are easiest to work with rights wise and even for someone like Geno he's already in the game and Square is already onboard with Smash so he'd come sooner rather than later. It's a question of whether Nintendo sees value in promoting Xenoblade 2, it seems like they've already chosen to attempt to revitalize ARMS as a franchise and it DID sell better, so I'm not really sure. With Sakurai I would be all in on it no doubt, with Nintendo? It's a coinflip.
 

Animegamingnerd

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I've said it here plenty of times and I will say it again, Geno is way to obscure for Nintendo or Square to care about him especially when both parties own way more valuable, iconic, and marketable characters then Geno. There are various reasons why both Cloud and Hero were pick over Geno due to things like recognizabilty and marketable. Cloud is the face of the entire JRPG genre and Hero is the grandfather of it all. Geno being kind of irrelevant to both companies is the biggest obstacle to any of the characters that have a serious loud group about getting into Smash.

Okay, so I saw a Twitter post, and it got me curious. Assuming promotions are a thing this pass, who do you think is more likely: Rex or Isaac?

Before anyone asks, the post in question was speculating we could get one of them, but not both. Note that the keyword is "speculating". Also, please refrain from arguing about it. We just got done with ANOTHER Geno debate...
Rex simply on grounds from being a franchise that is actually showing signs of life and feels like its only or two more games away from being in the same tier Fire Emblem terms of Nintendo's major franchises
 
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DarthEnderX

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I suppose it would be great to have a new Mii class introduced- as long as they introduced it with many Mii Upgraded costumes.
That's the only way Mii's are of any value, from my eyes.
And if that slot gave us a bunch of upgraded costumes, then I would see it.

What upgrades would that be?
Well first off, current Mii Swordfighter costumes for Ashley, Lip, Veronica and Viridi would almost certainly be shifted over to the Mage.
 

pinshadow

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I've said it here plenty of times and I will say it again, Geno is way to obscure for Nintendo or Square to care about him especially when both parties own way more valuable, iconic, and marketable characters then Geno. There are various reasons why both Cloud and Hero were pick over Geno due to things like recognizabilty and marketable. Cloud is the face of the entire JRPG genre and Hero is the grandfather of it all. Geno being kind of irrelevant to both companies is the biggest obstacle to any of the characters that have a serious loud group about getting into Smash.
You can say the exact same thing about Banjo, Microsoft owns more popular and relevant characters like Chief or Steve, and its remarkably clear Microsoft really has no interest in doing anything related to Banjo as a franchise. And yet, they still chose to put him in over them solely because of how requested he was.
 

pupNapoleon

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Well first off, current Mii Swordfighter costumes for Ashley, Lip, Veronica and Viridi would almost certainly be shifted over to the Mage.
That's an interesting take... I wonder if theyd actually shift them over.
It would both make sense, and also not (since it would mean Sakurai is taking away characters he allowed people to create, in the same game). Which I wouldnt say is a big deal, other than precedent (a part of the reason everyone is here, and his dislike for disappointing people with that which is already established). This leads me to believe he would allow the costume to be used for either original fighter or the new Mage.
 

Souless_shadow

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I don't take jokes. I take them seriously.

Watch your words when you're with this person, okay?
No need to be rude, they clearly didn't know you don't like jokes and didn't mean it in a harmful way. All you had to do was just tell them you don't appreciate the joke, and move on.
 

Animegamingnerd

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You can say the exact same thing about Banjo, Microsoft owns more popular and relevant characters like Chief or Steve, and its remarkably clear Microsoft really has no interest in doing anything related to Banjo as a franchise. And yet, they still chose to put him in over them solely because of how requested he was.
Difference is that Banjo is a main character in several high profile games most of which sold pretty well worldwide with a cult following that is still pretty strong to this day. While Geno is mainly just a party member from a franchise that already has loads of representation in Smash and a bunch of more well known characters that aren't playable in Smash like Waluigi, Pauline, King Boo, Toadette, Kamek. Not to mention already has 1 DLC character which could make Nintendo less incline to purpose another Mario character especially one who they don't even own the rights to while the company who does owns multiple major series that have had more games on Nintendo hardware then games Geno has been in general.
 

pupNapoleon

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Difference is that Banjo is a main character in several high profile games most of which sold pretty well worldwide with a cult following that is still pretty strong to this day. While Geno is mainly just a party member from a franchise that already has loads of representation in Smash and a bunch of more well known characters that aren't playable in Smash like Waluigi, Pauline, King Boo, Toadette, Kamek. Not to mention already has 1 DLC character which could make Nintendo less incline to purpose another Mario character especially one who they don't even own the rights to while the company who does owns multiple major series that have had more games on Nintendo hardware then games Geno has been in general.
Toadette but not Toad? Curious.
 

Gribbo

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Okay, so I saw a Twitter post, and it got me curious. Assuming promotions are a thing this pass, who do you think is more likely: Rex or Isaac?

Before anyone asks, the post in question was speculating we could get one of them, but not both. Note that the keyword is "speculating". Also, please refrain from arguing about it. We just got done with ANOTHER Geno debate...
I don't see why it has to be one or the other considering we got two (debatably three) "anime swordsman" characters in the last fighters pass, and they're very different characters outside of both being a part of that archetype.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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You can say the exact same thing about Banjo, Microsoft owns more popular and relevant characters like Chief or Steve, and its remarkably clear Microsoft really has no interest in doing anything related to Banjo as a franchise. And yet, they still chose to put him in over them solely because of how requested he was.
Actually, the fact they continue to advertise him via Rare Replay is doing something.

Difference is that Banjo is a main character in several high profile games most of which sold pretty well worldwide with a cult following that is still pretty strong to this day. While Geno is mainly just a party member from a franchise that already has loads of representation in Smash and a bunch of more well known characters that aren't playable in Smash like Waluigi, Pauline, King Boo, Toadette, Kamek. Not to mention already has 1 DLC character which could make Nintendo less incline to purpose another Mario character especially one who they don't even own the rights to while the company who does owns multiple major series that have had more games on Nintendo hardware then games Geno has been in general.
That's not even a major difference like it matters.

Remember Joker? He's the main character of literally one high profile game. That's all it took to get him in.

Also, if by several, you mean like... 2 at best, sure. Cause let's be real, the only ones that are remotely high profile are the N64 ones. What got Banjo in was massive fan demand and Microsoft saying yes. Microsoft basically said yes only after Nintendo and them were teamed up with various Minecraft stuff.

Square-Enix said yes to using Geno as soon as 4(we don't know what happened during Brawl at any point. Could've been Nintendo that said no to Sakurai before he could ask Square-Enix). And then said yes to using him easily in Ultimate, including Mallow as well. This isn't some problem like people are making it. It's not about relevancy. He's a massively popular character, and Nintendo knows it. It only serves them a good purpose to add him in Smash, as it further strengths relations with Square-Enix. SE gets cash out of it, and it doesn't remotely hurt them either. It's more neutral for them besides cash. They however think that's good enough by putting him in as a Mii costume.

SMRPG is a very high profile game too. And one of the 5 main characters is a massively popular and key character to the story(though yeah, Mallow got actual proper character development. Geno was pretty much the awesome character that was easy to like and written in a simple manner. He's the "cool guy" who is important to the overall story). Of course, SMRPG is an odd one because it has notable hero characters. The only one not important to the core storyline is Toadstool at best. Even the general bosses are important due to always being part of the story itself(with a few exceptions here and there, including the bonus boss). Don't forget that Nintendo easily got SE on board well before Microsoft, and also still managed to get pretty much easily more content from SE too. Especially since SE easily has cooperated in regards to Geno. What was keeping Geno out at best was 2 other bigger franchises that were more important than SMRPG, and that's fair.

The only actual difference between the franchises is one is active via Rare Replay(massive advertising too, so people know what it is), and one isn't very active outside of a few re-releases like Virtual Console. One clearly is getting more attention, yes. But considering it takes a lot of legalities to re-release Super Mario RPG, let alone make a sequel, that makes sense. Note that Banjo-Kazooie has yet to hit a Nintendo console since the Banjo Pilot game too, but because it's 100% owned by Microsoft, they can re-release it super easily. That's the weakness SMRPG has, being stuck between two companies(most of it is owned by SE, but a small bit is owned by Nintendo). More than likely they have an overall agreement it can only be released on Nintendo systems too, which explains a lot(which is logical too, cause, well, Mario's in it).
 

Droodle

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I dictate that the only character people are allowed to like is Kiryu (and Edgeworth). And that applies to things outside of Smash too.

Goodbye.

 

Evil Trapezium

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Anyways, how would people feel about this moveset I made for Axel Stone?
Intro: Axel walks in from the background (from the side in his home stage)

Stance/Idle 1: His idle animation from Streets of Rage 2.

Idle 2: Axel wipes his face with his right hand.

Idle 3: The “GO!” arrow appears over Axel’s HUD.


Notable Palette Swaps:
-Default (White)
-Blaze Fielding (Red with brown hair)
-Adam Hunter (Yellow with black hair)
-Max “Thunder” Hatchett (Brown with black hair)
-Eddie “Skate” Hunter (Yellow with red hair)
-Dr. Gilbert Zan (Blue with white hair)
-SoR2 Shiva (Black with black hair)
-Mr. X (Green with black hair)


Walk: Axel slowly side-steps forwards.

Jog: His walk from the games.

Dash: His dash from the games.

Damage: His damage animation from the games.

Jump: His jump from the games.

Crouch: Axel puts one hand on the ground, as if he were trying to get an item (the item pickup animation is exactly how it is from the games when Axel DOES get an item).


Weapon of Choice: Axel’s combat style is entirely hand-to-hand.


Jab: Axel punches twice with his left hand (5%, small knockback) and then a third time with his right hand (6%, small knockback)
Forward+A: Axel kicks outward with his left leg (8%, OK knockback)
Down+A: Axel kicks along the floor with his right leg, which can trip the target (7%, small knockback)
Up+A: Axel performs an uppercut with his right hand (12%, OK knockback)

Aerials
Air+A: Axel performs a backflip kick with his right leg (11%, OK knockback); taken from one of Skate’s normal attacks.
Air Forward+A: Axel kicks outwards with his left leg (10%, OK knockback)
Air Back + A: Axel kicks backwards with his both legs (14%, OK knockback); taken from one of Skate’s aerials.
Air Up+A: Axel kicks upwards with his right leg (12%, OK knockback)
Air Down+A: Axel knees the target with both knees (13% with a meteor effect, OK knockback)

Dash Attack: Thunder Tackle; Axel charges forward and attacks with his elbow (15%, OK knockback); taken from one of Max’s specials.
Edge Attack: Axel sweeps with his left leg as he gets back up (11%, OK knockback)
Get-Up Attack: Axel jumps up and kicks out with both legs (10%, OK knockback); loosely taken from one of Skate’s aerials.

Smash Moves
Forward+A: Knuckle Bomb; Axel swings both his fists forward (23%, medium knockback); taken from one of Max’s specials.
Up+A: Embukyaku; Axel kicks upwards with his left leg (22%, medium knockback); taken from one of Blaze’s specials.
Down+A: Double Spin Kick; Axel sweeps across the ground with both legs (19%, medium knockback); taken from one of Skate’s specials.

Grab: His grab from the games.
Pummel: Axel knees the target (2%)
Forwards+Throw: Axel headbutts the target (14%, OK knockback)
Down+Throw: Axel Toss; Axel vaults over the target and throws them down on the ground, burying them (15%)
Back+Throw: Axel drops his back onto the ground and throws the target backwards (13%, OK knockback)
Up+Throw: Axel briefly jumps up, and then kicks upwards while holding the target (16%, OK knockback); taken from one of Skate’s throws.


Special Moves
B : Dragon Smash; by holding B, Axel charges up a flurry of punches that he unleashes after, finishing with an uppercut (22%, medium knockback; 2.1% recoil)
B + Forwards : Grand Upper; Axel dashes forward and uppercuts the target with great vertical height (17%, medium knockback; 1.2% recoil); it’s basically Captain Falcon’s Raptor Boost, but with less distance.
B + Up : Grand Hook; Axel performs a 360 Dragon Wing with emphasis on horizontal movement (11%, OK knockback), and finishes with an uppercut with emphasis on vertical movement (18%, medium knockback; 1.7% recoil)
B + Down : Dragon Wing; Axel punches in a 360 turn (9%, small knockback), and then punches straight forward (19%, medium knockback; 1.6% recoil)

Final Smash: Police Backup; Axel punches up to three targets at once (9%), and then said targets are dragged into a cutscene where Axel radios in for backup. A police car arrives and the cops fire their bazookas at the targets, who are trapped in a ring of flames followed by an explosion (53%, devastating knockback).

Gimmick: Axel’s damage slowly rises whenever he uses a special move; however, there’s a meter you’re granted at the start of each stock that grants you one special move without damage. This meter has a 5-second cool down between special moves.


Taunts
1: “Go straight!” Axel mimics his pose from SoR2’s US box art.
2: Axel mimics his pose from Bare Knuckle 2’s box art.
1+2: Axel mimics his pose from SoR3’s box art.


Winposes
1: Axel loosely mimics his pose from Bare Knuckle’s box art.
2: Axel looks towards the distance, and waves towards an incoming helicopter.
3: Axel knockout punches a Y. Signal and Donovan and then jump-kicks a Galsia unconscious; loosely based on SoR1’s US box art.

Icon: The “R” in the first game’s logo.

Boxing Ring Title: Bare-Knuckled Ex-Cop

Victory Music: youtu.be/VyUmHYtG3xc

Kirby Hat: Axel’s hair and bandana
It's a decent moveset that combines Axel's moveset with other characters in the game but I'm not a big fan of that since it just misrepresents the character. Axel isn't acrobatic like Skate or Blaze so him doing backflips wouldn't make sense for him. While I'd prefer Axel to use his own moves, I understand that would cause him to lose half of his moveset from this and there would be no other moves to take inspiration from since Axel does have a limited amount of moves to use in the games.

Here's what I'd change, now granted I'd have to use some creative freedom with this but I'm just making it so he'd feel like himself. All changes marked in bold.
Aerials
Air+A: Axel kicks upwards with his right leg (12%, OK knockback) (Made it neutral aerial so it's like how you perform it in the games)

Air Forward+A: Axel kicks outwards with his left leg (10%, OK knockback)
Air Back + A: Axel performs a side kick with his left leg (11%, OK knockback)
Air Up+A: Axel performs a upwards dropkick (14%, OK knockback)

Air Down+A: Axel knees the target with both knees (13% with a meteor effect, OK knockback)

Dash Attack: Clothesline; Axel rushes with a running punch (15%, OK knockback)
Edge Attack: Axel sweeps with his left leg as he gets back up (11%, OK knockback)
Get-Up Attack: Axel sweeps the ground by hitting both sides with his fists (10%, OK knockback)

Smash Moves
Forward+A: Haymaker Punch; Axel swings his right fist forward with full force (23%, medium knockback)
Up+A: Spinning Uppercut; Axel performs a jumping uppercut and spins around once as he lands on the ground (22%, medium knockback)
Down+A: Punching sweep; Axel crouches down and punches from the front and back of him respectively(19%, medium knockback)


Grab: His grab from the games.
Pummel: Axel knees the target (2%)
Forwards+Throw: Axel headbutts the target (14%, OK knockback)
Down+Throw: Axel Toss; Axel vaults over the target and throws them down on the ground, burying them (15%)
Back+Throw: Axel drops his back onto the ground and throws the target backwards (13%, OK knockback)
Up+Throw: Axel uppercuts the opponent upwards (16%, OK knockback)

But aside from those, I like everything else you've done. I like how you made one of his idle animations has him have the Go message pop up and I'd love to see Axel Kirby!
 
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Droodle

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The Geno talks are always great because of how annoying both sides are, and I say that as someone who wants Geno in (even if he isn't my first pick, and I am still divided towards him).

To the Geno haters: Geno is still highly requested within the fanbase, and Nintendo/Sakurai have admitted to his popularity in the past. SMRPG was a pretty big game during it's time, and served as the precursor for the rest of the Mario RPGs. On top of this Geno is decently original, and would make for an interesting underused type of moveset. This is on top of the decent amount of "leaks" (untrue or not) that point towards him, makes him highly discussed. Overall, this gives him more then a decent enough chance to be considered a "likely" pick. If you don't like him, then oh well; but do realize that a lot of people do support him. If he gets in, don't be upset; just be happy that you won't ever have to hear about him in speculation again.

To the "hardcore" Geno Supporters: It's fine, if you like Geno and want to defend his chances. But please for the love of GOD stop acting like Geno is practically guaranteed at this point, and realize that most of the "evidence" that points towards him is extremely circumstantial at best (and nothing legit definitively states that Geno is a fighter).

Banjo getting in over MC or Steve does not matter to Geno's chances at all. Square Enix is not Microsoft, they haven't even "endorsed" Geno like Microsoft endorsed Banjo. I can't even think of a time where a smaller Square Enix character got in over one of their major characters in a major crossover. Usually the smaller crossovers are relegated to their mobile games, and Geno hasn't been in one of those either. Yes they gave us a Geno mii costume in Smash 4, and Geno and Mallow spirits in base; but consenting to those is a different story compared to adding a full-blown character, and so far only their bigger characters have gotten the playable 3rd party treatment (not just in Smash either). Who's to say the next Square character won't be Sephiroth/2B/Lara Croft, etc.

The one strength that Geno has is his Smash popularity, it's not general popularity just Smash popularity. And that obviously helps him out quite a bit, I personally believe Banjo wouldn't have been added if it wasn't for his Smash popularity. But Smash popularity isn't the end all be all, Isaac in both in his Smash 4 and pre AT-Ultimate days was a bigger request, same with Waluigi. Guess what? They didn't get in. And there are plenty of other characters in the same boat. They didn't get in, despite being much easier to be able to work with comparatively to Geno. In my experience, Geno is also a really divisive pick in general as well: he's divisive here, 4chan, reddit, gamefaqs, and on twitter; really anywhere that is not the Geno board/discord. And at this point it's hard to call it a vocal minority (although I doubt Nintendo cares).

So what I'm getting at is that IF Geno doesn't get in, don't treat him as an exception among the likes of Banjo/K. Rool/Ridley. There are plently of other fan-favorites like Isaac/Waluigi/BD/Dixie/Shadow/Krystal/Skull Kid/Shantae who were all heavily requested but didn't make it in. I swear there's plenty of arguments on the Geno board stating how every other "never ever" like Banjo/K. Rool/Ridley got in (with the exception of Waluigi, who will be a magical bonus character), so Geno must get in too. And yet they completely ignore Isaac, as that hurts their argument.

All in all, I hope Geno is either definitively confirmed, or confirmed in June so that we can finally take a step to move past whether he "deserves" to be in Smash or not. The whole back and forth gets super annoying (doubly so because it's not just here, but pretty much every popular Smash site).
 

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The Geno talks are always great because of how annoying both sides are, and I say that as someone who wants Geno in (even if he isn't my first pick, and I am still divided towards him).

To the Geno haters: Geno is still highly requested within the fanbase, and Nintendo/Sakurai have admitted to his popularity in the past. SMRPG was a pretty big game during it's time, and served as the precursor for the rest of the Mario RPGs. On top of this Geno is decently original, and would make for an interesting underused type of moveset. This is on top of the decent amount of "leaks" (untrue or not) that point towards him, makes him highly discussed. Overall, this gives him more then a decent enough chance to be considered a "likely" pick. If you don't like him, then oh well; but do realize that a lot of people do support him. If he gets in, don't be upset; just be happy that you won't ever have to hear about him in speculation again.

To the "hardcore" Geno Supporters: It's fine, if you like Geno and want to defend his chances. But please for the love of GOD stop acting like Geno is practically guaranteed at this point, and realize that most of the "evidence" that points towards him is extremely circumstantial at best (and nothing legit definitively states that Geno is a fighter).

Banjo getting in over MC or Steve does not matter to Geno's chances at all. Square Enix is not Microsoft, they haven't even "endorsed" Geno like Microsoft endorsed Banjo. I can't even think of a time where a smaller Square Enix character got in over one of their major characters in a major crossover. Usually the smaller crossovers are relegated to their mobile games, and Geno hasn't been in one of those either. Yes they gave us a Geno mii costume in Smash 4, and Geno and Mallow spirits in base; but consenting to those is a different story compared to adding a full-blown character, and so far only their bigger characters have gotten the playable 3rd party treatment (not just in Smash either). Who's to say the next Square character won't be Sephiroth/2B/Lara Croft, etc.

The one strength that Geno has is his Smash popularity, it's not general popularity just Smash popularity. And that obviously helps him out quite a bit, I personally believe Banjo wouldn't have been added if it wasn't for his Smash popularity. But Smash popularity isn't the end all be all, Isaac in both in his Smash 4 and pre AT-Ultimate days was a bigger request, same with Waluigi. Guess what? They didn't get in. And there are plenty of other characters in the same boat. They didn't get in, despite being much easier to be able to work with comparatively to Geno. In my experience, Geno is also a really divisive pick in general as well: he's divisive here, 4chan, reddit, gamefaqs, and on twitter; really anywhere that is not the Geno board/discord. And at this point it's hard to call it a vocal minority (although I doubt Nintendo cares).

So what I'm getting at is that IF Geno doesn't get in, don't treat him as an exception among the likes of Banjo/K. Rool/Ridley. There are plently of other fan-favorites like Isaac/Waluigi/BD/Dixie/Shadow/Krystal/Skull Kid/Shantae who were all heavily requested but didn't make it in. I swear there's plenty of arguments on the Geno board stating how every other "never ever" like Banjo/K. Rool/Ridley got in (with the exception of Waluigi, who will be a magical bonus character), so Geno must get in too. And yet they completely ignore Isaac, as that hurts their argument.

All in all, I hope Geno is either definitively confirmed, or confirmed in June so that we can finally take a step to move past whether he "deserves" to be in Smash or not. The whole back and forth gets super annoying (doubly so because it's not just here, but pretty much every popular Smash site).
I gotta disagree. Sakurai has clearly had Geno on his mind recently. He's mentioned him by name several times and has expressed interest in the character. Geno even got a Mii Costume in Smash 4 that is eerily missing (similar to the Bandai-Namco Mii Costumes possibly hinting at Heihachi a Bandai-Namco DLC character) in the current version of Ultimate.
Remember the last time Sakurai mentioned a character he knew was a big fan request? Ridley.
 
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pinshadow

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Actually, the fact they continue to advertise him via Rare Replay is doing something.


That's not even a major difference like it matters.

Remember Joker? He's the main character of literally one high profile game. That's all it took to get him in.

Also, if by several, you mean like... 2 at best, sure. Cause let's be real, the only ones that are remotely high profile are the N64 ones. What got Banjo in was massive fan demand and Microsoft saying yes. Microsoft basically said yes only after Nintendo and them were teamed up with various Minecraft stuff.

Square-Enix said yes to using Geno as soon as 4(we don't know what happened during Brawl at any point. Could've been Nintendo that said no to Sakurai before he could ask Square-Enix). And then said yes to using him easily in Ultimate, including Mallow as well. This isn't some problem like people are making it. It's not about relevancy. He's a massively popular character, and Nintendo knows it. It only serves them a good purpose to add him in Smash, as it further strengths relations with Square-Enix. SE gets cash out of it, and it doesn't remotely hurt them either. It's more neutral for them besides cash. They however think that's good enough by putting him in as a Mii costume.

SMRPG is a very high profile game too. And one of the 5 main characters is a massively popular and key character to the story(though yeah, Mallow got actual proper character development. Geno was pretty much the awesome character that was easy to like and written in a simple manner. He's the "cool guy" who is important to the overall story). Of course, SMRPG is an odd one because it has notable hero characters. The only one not important to the core storyline is Toadstool at best. Even the general bosses are important due to always being part of the story itself(with a few exceptions here and there, including the bonus boss). Don't forget that Nintendo easily got SE on board well before Microsoft, and also still managed to get pretty much easily more content from SE too. Especially since SE easily has cooperated in regards to Geno. What was keeping Geno out at best was 2 other bigger franchises that were more important than SMRPG, and that's fair.

The only actual difference between the franchises is one is active via Rare Replay(massive advertising too, so people know what it is), and one isn't very active outside of a few re-releases like Virtual Console. One clearly is getting more attention, yes. But considering it takes a lot of legalities to re-release Super Mario RPG, let alone make a sequel, that makes sense. Note that Banjo-Kazooie has yet to hit a Nintendo console since the Banjo Pilot game too, but because it's 100% owned by Microsoft, they can re-release it super easily. That's the weakness SMRPG has, being stuck between two companies(most of it is owned by SE, but a small bit is owned by Nintendo). More than likely they have an overall agreement it can only be released on Nintendo systems too, which explains a lot(which is logical too, cause, well, Mario's in it).
Mario RPG has always seemed more like a 50/50 in rights to me? I don't know, its weird. Square for whatever reason never released any of their Wii U virtual console games outside of Japan, save for Super Mario RPG, Tactics Advance, and Ogre Battle 64, all games in which Nintendo had some role in publishing. So they atleast have some control over what gets done with it.
 

DMTN

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I gotta disagree. Sakurai has clearly had Geno on his mind recently. He's mentioned him by name several times and has expressed interest in the character. Geno even got a Mii Costume in Smash 4 that is eerily missing (similar to the Bandai-Namco Mii Costumes possibly hinting at Heihachi a Bandai-Namco DLC character) in the current version of Ultimate.
Remember the last time Sakurai mentioned a character he knew was a big fan request? Ridley.
The last one was actually Rex, so that doesn't really support your argument. Unless they still add him in this pass.
I would be more confident in Geno if the Arms character is one of the five characters with a base game spirit.
 

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The last one was actually Rex, so that doesn't really support your argument. Unless they still add him in this pass.
I would be more confident in Geno if the Arms character is one of the five characters with a base game spirit.
It's obviously Spring Man, amigo.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Mario RPG has always seemed more like a 50/50 in rights to me? I don't know, its weird. Square for whatever reason never released any of their Wii U virtual console games outside of Japan, save for Super Mario RPG, Tactics Advance, and Ogre Battle 64, all games in which Nintendo had some role in publishing. So they atleast have some control over what gets done with it.
I doubt that. There's too much unique stuff that SE created themselves. More than half of it is clearly original characters. It has homages to Nintendo characters too, of course. The moles, for instance, are obviously based upon Monty Mole, but still unique. Chained Kong is a more obvious knock-off design in comparison to that.

I'm guessing it's a lot more, probably 60/40 or higher. There's probably some specific rules of usage for a lot of the characters. Since they're still a Mario character either way, Nintendo might have to approve usage of any of them too. But they can't use them either way without SE.

As for the character designs, that's likely owned by the person who designed them. But still with the same "who can use them" rule, since they're Mario characters.

It might not even be this complicated, heh.
 

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I gotta disagree. Sakurai has clearly had Geno on his mind recently. He's mentioned him by name several times and has expressed interest in the character. Geno even got a Mii Costume in Smash 4 that is eerily missing (similar to the Bandai-Namco Mii Costumes possibly hinting at Heihachi a Bandai-Namco DLC character) in the current version of Ultimate.
Remember the last time Sakurai mentioned a character he knew was a big fan request? Ridley.
A lot of people are making the mistake of attributing Geno's chances of getting in to Sakurai mentioning his popularity, but that wrong. Sakurai isn't calling the shots anymore; Nintendo is. Despite the Mii costume and all the good things Sakurai said about Geno, he failed to include him in the base roster.

Point is, Sakurai could make a post today explaining why Geno is his absolute favorite character of all time and that he'd love to have him in Smash. Ain't gonna make a difference.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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A lot of people are making the mistake of attributing Geno's chances of getting in to Sakurai mentioning his popularity, but that wrong. Sakurai isn't calling the shots anymore; Nintendo is. Despite the Mii costume and all the good things Sakurai said about Geno, he failed to include him in the base roster.
For an unknown reason. Sakurai never spoke on it either. Hero was possibly higher priority for him.

Note that this has little to do with your other point. No, this has nothing to do with Nintendo calling the shot. Sakurai didn't necessarily fail to include him in the base roster either. It may have never been at one point planned. He failed to include Hero in the base roster, yes. But that's quite literally the only planned character for base we actually know of(others possibly were too, but we don't know for sure).

Sakurai is no longer calling the shots, yes. But we don't entirely know how much influence he has, other than Nintendo clearly is the first one to choose. We don't even know if Sakurai was given the choice for who ARMS is, which to be fair, would be a neat idea. Nintendo has a lot of trust in him, so I could see it being possible. Though most likely they'd push the mascot(who they are pushing as the main protagonist in the comics too, instead of "anyone can be a protagonist" the normal game has).

I don't entirely disagree with you, but we have no serious clue on why he's only a Spirit, or where the costume is. There's a lot of unknown stuff. Geno looking like he's in an okay position(this seems the most accurate?) doesn't necessarily include Sakurai's own opinion alone. That's a small factor with Nintendo choosing the characters. Geno is massively popular, and there's a good guarantee he got a ton of ballot votes. That alone should say that he's in a reasonable position for Nintendo to look into the idea. They clearly do still take it into account, cause let's be real, that's the main reason they went for Banjo. Hero and Terry possibly could've had ballot influence too.
 

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For an unknown reason. Sakurai never spoke on it either. Hero was possibly higher priority for him.

Note that this has little to do with your other point. No, this has nothing to do with Nintendo calling the shot. Sakurai didn't necessarily fail to include him in the base roster either. It may have never been at one point planned. He failed to include Hero in the base roster, yes. But that's quite literally the only planned character for base we actually know of(others possibly were too, but we don't know for sure).

Sakurai is no longer calling the shots, yes. But we don't entirely know how much influence he has, other than Nintendo clearly is the first one to choose. We don't even know if Sakurai was given the choice for who ARMS is, which to be fair, would be a neat idea. Nintendo has a lot of trust in him, so I could see it being possible. Though most likely they'd push the mascot(who they are pushing as the main protagonist in the comics too, instead of "anyone can be a protagonist" the normal game has).

I don't entirely disagree with you, but we have no serious clue on why he's only a Spirit, or where the costume is. There's a lot of unknown stuff. Geno looking like he's in an okay position(this seems the most accurate?) doesn't necessarily include Sakurai's own opinion alone. That's a small factor with Nintendo choosing the characters. Geno is massively popular, and there's a good guarantee he got a ton of ballot votes. That alone should say that he's in a reasonable position for Nintendo to look into the idea. They clearly do still take it into account, cause let's be real, that's the main reason they went for Banjo. Hero and Terry possibly could've had ballot influence too.
Is he though? Mario RPG didn't release in Europe until 2008, I am not even sure if its the best selling Mario RPG or even the best selling game Square made during the SNES era (granted its kind of hard to say if its or not since reliable sales data on SNES/Genesis era games is very hard to find) Even then the only kind of data I could find on its sales numbers puts it around 2.14 million which while great does put behind titles like FF5 (2.45 million) and FF6 (3.42 million) if VGChartz sales is even remotely reliable.

The dude only made 1 appearance ever since Mario RPG in a cameo for Superstar Saga that got cut from its remake despite Nintendo and Square having a better relationship then they did during the GBA/Gamecube era. I only in fact see Geno if reference within the Smash fandom, I never see get meme like the way Waluigi has which I have seen plenty of casual gamers in person take part in (hell the washington post made article about it the day he was deconfirm), I can't even recall ever seeing him as cosplay at convention that I attended.

Considering the reactions certain characters have drawn, I honestly believe that Smash speculation can very much be an echo chamber, a good example being that some people on this very forum in this very same thread that they had no idea what Persona 5 was until Joker confirm was confirmed for Smash. Then we have the people who cried about Hero and Terry getting in over a character they loved, not realizing how important the former's series is to JRPG's and how important the latter's series is to fighting games including Smash.
 

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A lot of people are making the mistake of attributing Geno's chances of getting in to Sakurai mentioning his popularity, but that wrong. Sakurai isn't calling the shots anymore; Nintendo is. Despite the Mii costume and all the good things Sakurai said about Geno, he failed to include him in the base roster.

Point is, Sakurai could make a post today explaining why Geno is his absolute favorite character of all time and that he'd love to have him in Smash. Ain't gonna make a difference.
Pretty sure Nintendo is still keeping an eye on the Ballot even this late in the game.

IF Geno did better than characters like Isaac and Krystal (whom I kind of guess got chosen as Assists because of their popularity) then, yeah, maybe. But we won’t really know. Like, ever.
 

Animegamingnerd

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Pretty sure Nintendo is still keeping an eye on the Ballot even this late in the game.

IF Geno did better than characters like Isaac and Krystal (whom I kind of guess got chosen as Assists because of their popularity) then, yeah, maybe. But we won’t really know. Like, ever.
I actually think they aren't looking at it anymore, when you consider the following.

A lot of the most requested ones on there like K.Rool, Simon, Ridley, Wolf, Snake, Bayonetta, Banjo etc are all in the game already.

The ballot was 5 years ago and a lot has changed since

Such as the Wii U and 3DS died,
The Switch was revealed and released and is on track to become a Wii/DS tier level of success.
Nintendo changed CEO's twice,
While far from perfect Nintendo's relationships with third parties is the strongest its been since SNES,
New IP's that were hits like ARMS, Dragalia Lost, Astral Chain, Ring Fit Adventure released all of which have petitional to be a franchise and the success to justify it.


The ballot was done to basically data throughout 2015 for just 6 months and now 5 years later so much has changed to the point that data is simply outdated. Banjo was like the only DLC character from FP1 that likely did well in the ballot since I seriously doubt Terry or Hero had a major push outside of certain regions and Byleith's game likely wasn't even greenlit yet and Joker's game kept getting delayed during this time. I just don't see them using the ballot anymore especially Challenger Pack 6 is from game that likely was at best in pre-production during the time of the ballot.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Is he though? Mario RPG didn't release in Europe until 2008, I am not even sure if its the best selling Mario RPG or even the best selling game Square made during the SNES era (granted its kind of hard to say if its or not since reliable sales data on SNES/Genesis era games is very hard to find) Even then the only kind of data I could find on its sales numbers puts it around 2.14 million which while great does put behind titles like FF5 (2.45 million) and FF6 (3.42 million) if VGChartz sales is even remotely reliable.
Yes, yes he did. Super Mario RPG is one of the biggest games in gaming history. ...You know, Europe aside. But it completely influenced every Mario RPG to come. Though you can be a big game but still not have the great sales ever or be the most known. Killer Instinct is a very important game in gaming history, creating the idea of combo breaker, actually being the first game where Combos are a mechanic, not a glitch, but few care about the combo breaker, and people still think Street Fighter defined combos. A lot of games don't actually get the proper credit either way.

VGChartz is pretty unreliable too. Also, consider the fact it is very close to FF5, which isn't actually even bad at all. People are well aware SMRPG wasn't the most known of the Mario games(due to not remotely being similar to any other ones, using a completely different artstyle too). But it didn't change that it has a pretty big impact overall. You could compare that factor to Dragon Quest(but to obviously a lesser degree). It's not a worldwide impact, but still a rather big impact. If you're getting a SNES, why wouldn't you get one if its iconic games. It's so iconic the game was part of the core SNES covers too. Just like Banjo-Kazooie is part of the core N64 covers. And by that, I mean the one for the console. The real difference between BK is that the series continued slightly more.

The dude only made 1 appearance ever since Mario RPG in a cameo for Superstar Saga that got cut from its remake despite Nintendo and Square having a better relationship then they did during the GBA/Gamecube era. I only in fact see Geno if reference within the Smash fandom, I never see get meme like the way Waluigi has which I have seen plenty of casual gamers in person take part in (hell the washington post made article about it the day he was deconfirm), I can't even recall ever seeing him as cosplay at convention that I attended.
So pretty much most of Banjo's support too for Smash. It was only pretty much within the Smash fandom. People also wanted it remade... just like SMRPG, but those include non-Smash fans too.

You are aware that Paper Mario was originally Super Mario RPG 2, right? They had plans to continue using the franchise already. It's unknown why it stopped. Likely cause SE went to the PlayStation in general.

Considering the reactions certain characters have drawn, I honestly believe that Smash speculation can very much be an echo chamber, a good example being that some people on this very forum in this very same thread that they had no idea what Persona 5 was until Joker confirm was confirmed for Smash. Then we have the people who cried about Hero and Terry getting in over a character they loved, not realizing how important the former's series is to JRPG's and how important the latter's series is to fighting games including Smash.
You make it sound like Banjo-Kazooie wasn't in the same boat. Almost all of it was from N64 fans, not people who enjoyed more of the franchise. It's all about "Nintendo roots" in the Smash fandom. SMRPG isn't any different.

You're also making the mistake that anything but the N64 Banjo-Kazooie games were held with massive regard. While the other ones do have their fans, they are not on the remote same level. This isn't some Smash Bubble thing, this is just the general opinion. Banjo Pilot is treated as a good game, but not "a masterpiece". Nuts & Boltz is far more mixed, people still thinking it was meant to be BK3 didn't help its reception. The game worked okay, but wasn't what they expected whatsoever. Which is fair, cause it wasn't really a normal sequel anyway.

Hell, I can't even remember if there was a fifth game in the series. But only two were "at the top" either way. It's quite common for fans to outright act like the Xbox game doesn't exist as is, and finding people that care about the spin-off isn't easy either.

In comparison, Geno's two appearances are widely remembered despite one being a simple cameo, while the other is a major appearance as is. Sure it's a spin-off game. But does that remotely matter? No. It never did. Nintendo isn't going to avoid it because of that. If they're going to avoid it, it's because they don't intent to double dip with Square-Enix for a character entirely or SE says no. Could they want another SE character? Sure. But how many have the same massive fan demand(and no, this isn't a Smash Bubble either. We know Geno is a massively demanded character). One could argue they might go for another Mario character, sure. That's possible. Maybe they don't have the budget to do a lot of 3rd Party DLC. And there's no denying SMRPG getting a couple costumes(Geno and Mallow Hat, for example) is a lot easier than a bunch of spirits, possibly up to 2 costumes, a playable character, and a lot of music to boot. But there's also little reason to not go for Geno too. It's definitely worth it for both Nintendo and SE.

You also missed a key part about BK. The first thing is that they got in due to fan demand in itself. Geno is in the same position in that regard. And no, BK being "somewhat relevant" with Rare Replay doesn't change much outside of at best Microsoft being willing to say yes. Nintendo already set the stage with Minecraft, not some idea that BK were Nintendo Characters at one point. That wasn't some kind of unique factor either. The best that "gave" was tons of ballot votes. Otherwise, it wouldn't have mattered. If BK, for example, were always 3rd party, their tons of votes for being major mascot characters would've still been there. Part of it is obviously being on the 64, but that's the thing. They were N64 masterpieces, and they didn't even reinvent the genre either by any means. It's no Super Mario 64 in its influence. They're amazing games(though dated), and that was enough to get people to love 'em. If Nintendo outright cared about them that much, they would've already had those characters in more than just Smash. We don't see Rare Replay on the Switch either. Clearly it wasn't that important they used to be Nintendo-owned. Not enough for them to push it. This is made even clearer when Sakurai directly advertises Microsoft for BK, showing they aren't really interested in the Rareware franchises either. They have more interest in Minecraft.

The second thing, which is vastly important, is that without Minecraft, they wouldn't have happened anyway. Nintendo had to outright get together with Microsoft and team up for the game stuff. This is what was also important, building a good relationship. Nintendo gets little out of BK as characters besides pleasing the fans. There's no new Xbox exclusives coming either. Key term being exclusives too. This is the thing as well; Nintendo has built a massively good relationship with Square-Enix. It's very easy for them to get Geno now more than ever. The biggest hurdles were Cloud and Hero at that point, very important characters that also had quite a bit of fan demand. Yes, other SE characters exist, as I said, but how many have equal fan demand either? Or have a massively good reason to be added? The only one really close would be Lara Croft right now for being vastly important to gaming history. As Bonus DLC is extremely unlikely as is, Geno is in a fairly good position with little competition for a SE 3rd party slot. His biggest hurdles are over.

It's not that really that odd to see why he could make it in. Nor that odd why Nintendo would even go for him. It could lead to SMRPG getting on Switch, which is a win for both sides. Especially with some problems this year getting out games. That's just one way to benefit SE and Nintendo heavily. And I honestly think he could become a Premium Costume too(which would explain why he wasn't with Banjo/Terry/Byleth, since new negotiations were made). I doubt he wouldn't be Premium either, cause they'd have easily enough time. Maybe he's coming with another SE character. Maybe not. Who knows. But people expect a costume or playable for good reasons. He's a bit too big to ignore in Smash nowadays.

Worth noting I doubt they stopped using the ballot at any point. There's no reason to ignore it when it makes for a lot of good picks as is. It gives them neat ideas to use, and also tells a good amount of what can easily sell. Besides that, it specifically said it could be used for future Smash games. That's with an S. There's little reason to believe they're using it once and that's it.
 
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