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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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ZephyrZ

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It seems like I'm late to the discussion, but here's a reminder that the reason Smash 64 and Melee had all Nintendo characters was because they were Nintendo-made games. They already had the rights to those characters, so it was easy for them to slap them onto their Dragon King game to make sure it has interesting characters and sells.

As Smash got larger in scale and reputation they were able to start acquiring the licences for characters they didn't own as well.

I don't see why we have to latch onto the idea of Smash being "Nintendo only" so hard. It's primarily a Nintendo themed crossover largely out of circumstance.
 
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Goombaic

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Looking back on it, Incineroar hate was pretty funny. When Vergeben claimed that the Pokemon character wasn't Decidueye, Lycanroc, or Mimikyu, there was a worrying number of people that latched on to Golisopod of all characters.
 

Shroob

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Looking back on it, Incineroar hate was pretty funny. When Vergeben claimed that the Pokemon character wasn't Decidueye, Lycanroc, or Mimikyu, there was a worrying number of people that latched on to Golisopod of all characters.
A lot of the hate, aside from people's personal distaste for its design, was that it was the death knell for the Grinch leak, and stood against what the majority of the fanbase was willingly attaching themselves to.

And at the end of the day, who would win this knock-down, drag out brawl?


The entire(*) community, putting their faith in a leak which answered several long-standing fan demands?


Or insiders and their one catty boi
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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Looking back on it, Incineroar hate was pretty funny. When Vergeben claimed that the Pokemon character wasn't Decidueye, Lycanroc, or Mimikyu, there was a worrying number of people that latched on to Golisopod of all characters.
I think Guzma and Golisopod are/were pretty popular characters, so that makes total sense. No idea how its ability would work in a fighting game, but eh.

Side Note: I keep thinking that you're a different person even though your profile picture fits your name better. lol
 

GillyGrime

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Neither SNK, Persona or FE 3 Houses meant anything to me before their reveals. But the implementation (moveset, stage, music) has left me far from disappointed. I think an issue is people buying the fighters pass blind, and then whining when the characters don't totally reflect their wishlists. Buying the fighters pass before any reveals lowkey requires a combination of an open minded, familiarity with various game series or simply desiring to support the dev team (or simply for completionist sake).

Them adding Fire Emblem DLC was the least hype thing they could have done for me personally and yet I think they pulled it off fantastically. I'm genuinely satisfied after Banjo and K. Rool so I'm excited to see what's next without fear.
 

Schnee117

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A lot of the hate, aside from people's personal distaste for its design, was that it was the death knell for the Grinch leak, and stood against what the majority of the fanbase was willingly attaching themselves to.

And at the end of the day, who would win this knock-down, drag out brawl?


The entire(*) community, putting their faith in a leak which answered several long-standing fan demands?


Or insiders and their one catty boi
*Insiders and their kitty in the Box
 
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PeridotGX

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Incineroar? Salt-machine?

Is it because people didn't want more Pokemon or was it because Incineroar ****ing destroyed everyone who thought the Grinch leak was real?
all of the above, plus people who wanted a better different Pokemon.

I',m still not over Decidueye...
 

CaptainAmerica

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Here's the thing with the Grinch - it relates very well to the discussion we had over the last few pages.

A lot of people saw their hopes and dreams, meanwhile the alternative was the dreaded Box theory - you're getting nothing else but Bara Tiger and you need to like it. Of course there was hate thrown at Cena for that: he wasn't Geno/Banjo/Mach Rider/Whoever else I don't remember. People were annoyed that they were getting someone they didn't care about and not getting someone they did.

I wish I was at a point where I would be happy with literally anyone that got in. And yeah, there's one character they could put in that would get me there. But I also know I won't be excited about everyone so I'm not jumping on the season passes. I'll a la carte the ones I want once I see who I like. That's a lot of why I'd like it if the DLC went on for ages, since then I'd have a larger selection. I don't need everyone, but I'd like to get someone I care about without them being forced down my throat
 

Captain Shwampy

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Looking back on it, Incineroar hate was pretty funny. When Vergeben claimed that the Pokemon character wasn't Decidueye, Lycanroc, or Mimikyu, there was a worrying number of people that latched on to Golisopod of all characters.
Would've been way better to.

Bug types are the best.
 

Shroob

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Here's the thing with the Grinch - it relates very well to the discussion we had over the last few pages.

A lot of people saw their hopes and dreams, meanwhile the alternative was the dreaded Box theory - you're getting nothing else but Bara Tiger and you need to like it. Of course there was hate thrown at Cena for that: he wasn't Geno/Banjo/Mach Rider/Whoever else I don't remember. People were annoyed that they were getting someone they didn't care about and not getting someone they did.

I wish I was at a point where I would be happy with literally anyone that got in. And yeah, there's one character they could put in that would get me there. But I also know I won't be excited about everyone so I'm not jumping on the season passes. I'll a la carte the ones I want once I see who I like. That's a lot of why I'd like it if the DLC went on for ages, since then I'd have a larger selection. I don't need everyone, but I'd like to get someone I care about without them being forced down my throat
As much as I want to agree here a bit, it's hard, very, very hard.


Box theorists kept their expectations in check because, I mean, why wouldn't you? Everything is lining up with insider information and, in hindsight, we now know that Ultimate's roster was very, very well known internally probably as far back as late June/early July.


I don't feel like box theorists ever forcefully tried to shove it down anyone's throat as much as it was "Please, hype responsibly", because, let's face it, that's a good moral in general.


And then the Grinch leak happened, and while this obviously doesn't apply to everyone who believed it, the very, VERY loud online crowd in support of the Grinch leak were unsavory and crude individuals.


Gone were the days of "Hype responsibly", now it was "Throw ALL caution to the wind, this is it bros, BOXKEKS BTFO!"


And look where that got us.
 

Freduardo

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It’d be funny if it goes like this:

FP7: ARMs guy
FP8: Geno
FP9: Kos Mos
FP10: Isaac
FP11: Chorus Kids
FP12: Mach Rider

bonus for buying the pass: Shadow as an Echo of Sonic.

Sakurai just shrugs and goes “I really got hyped for the Grinch leak.”
 

Rie Sonomura

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It’d be funny if it goes like this:

FP7: ARMs guy
FP8: Geno
FP9: Kos Mos
FP10: Isaac
FP11: Chorus Kids
FP12: Mach Rider

bonus for buying the pass: Shadow as an Echo of Sonic.

Sakurai just shrugs and goes “I really got hyped for the Grinch leak.”
KOS-MOS wasn’t in the Grinch leak though. What everyone thought was KOS-MOS was just a cloud
 

BernkastelWitch

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Honestly this whole speculation scene does bring up a lot of interesting aspects of the Smash fandom: Basically the people dedicated to certain aspects of Nintendo history vs those who played a bit more, lesser known franchises.

Not trying to put people down or anything. Just not sure how to word this correctly. There's the people who are dedicated to the likes of Geno, Waluigi, Sora, and whatnot and are usually not exposed to other franchises for various reasons(Owning one console, haven't dipped too deep into games, etc etc) and they feel like it's an attack when someone out of that group is mentioned.

And then there's people who are a bit more hardcore about their gaming and are more accepting of certain characters. This is where certain characters like Reimu, Saber, Kiryu, Arle, Sol Badguy, etc etc would fall under. People know more of these lesser brought up franchises and realize they're influential or popular int heir own ways.

It's a bit why characters like Hero and Terry unfortunately had a 50/50 reaction with the fanbase. Kind of a clear distinction between people who realize how influential Dragon Quest and SNK are and the people who probably only heard of them at best and never realized how they were influential or have value to them.

Just a bit of a thought here.
 

Schnee117

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You can't really relate the Box Theory-Grinch Leak era to any other unless you got a bunch of rampant 4channers running around hurling slurs like nobodies business or some guy having a huge public meltdown because people don't think the same way as them.

Fun times.
Did I say fun? I meant hilariously bad times.
 

Shroob

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You can't really relate the Box Theory-Grinch Leak era to any other unless you got a bunch of rampant 4channers running around hurling slurs like nobodies business or some guy having a huge public meltdown because people don't think the same way as them.

Fun times.
Did I say fun? I meant hilariously bad times.
Maybe...

We get what we de----*Shot*
 

Among Waddle Dees

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Incineroar? Salt-machine?

Is it because people didn't want more Pokemon or was it because Incineroar ****ing destroyed everyone who thought the Grinch leak was real?
I don't know about the rest of the speculation crowd, but my gripe with Incineroar is that Smash wasn't even the first time he got correctly leaked to my dismay. I say this as someone who did NOT want the Grinch leak to be real, but it probably would've been better than Wrestle-Cat Leak 2.0.
 

Cosmic77

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This thread just...absolutely sucked during the Grinch leak.

Even though I didn't really want Incineroar, I was glad when he was revealed. After three weeks of 72% of the thread telling me I was living in denial (and that's not a random number I pulled from my butt. That's actually how many people voted for Team Real on this thread's poll), I was on the verge of quitting Smashboards. Certainly didn't help that the leak included Banjo, Issac, and Geno, so of course people aggressively defended it against anyone who questioned it.

November 1st felt like the day I was finally vindicated, and I sincerely hope we never get a leak that fools as many people as the Grinch leak did. Fake leaks can add a little spice to a dry season, but it's not worth it when the thread turns into a warzone for nearly a month.
 
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Shroob

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Speaking of leaks, I still dunno what to feel towards Verg in regards to DLC.


His track record, while shakey, still gives him a foot to stand on.



You don't just name drop ALL of the mii costumes during Byleth's presentation before they get shown off without at least seeing the Direct early.
 

EricTheGamerman

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Smash isn't having an identity crisis, the people who weren't prepared for a greater focus on third parties are. It's fine that's not your preferred direction for the series, but that reflects on you and not the game. Sakurai has been nothing but confident in his development of the game and incorporation of more third parties in recent years with emphasis placed on gaming crossover instead of just a Nintendo crossover. There's no wavering in his understanding of the game's identity, and some fans perceiving it less positively does not change that. Not to mention, the massive sales of the game and the implied sales of the first Fighter's Pass are communicating massive approval for Smash's continued direction. The negativity behind third parties in Smash almost exclusively comes from individual forum goers. It's a crossover that includes all kinds of beloved characters across gaming that originally started as a Nintendo crossover and retains most of that original content.

As for what you do or don't know in Smash, you're also afforded your own personal preferences, but I feel like people don't recognize just how diverse an install base of almost 20 million people is going to be in terms of preferences. If you have any slightly more restrictive preferences, it's entirely possible for you to go an entire couple seasons worth of DLC without getting stuff you prefer because the game is branching out and appealing to so many types of people. You don't have to be more open to new experiences and you can say that you've seen enough from little content to say you have no interest, but you are inherently choosing to limit your potential enjoyment of the game and the potential for discovery. You have to own your tastes and acknowledge they won't always get catered to when a product this wide reaching is trying to satisfy tons of people and wildly different groups.

And it's especially frustrating for me personally to see some people speak to how much they loved Smash for introducing them to new first party franchises they didn't know about, but then saying they're unwilling to explore new third parties that Smash is offering them. In general, I find some sections of Nintendo fans who have a tendency to deify them as a company and claim all their work is good and worth exploring, while other games are less compelling, and that has always felt like an unnecessarily restrictive lens to view the world from. There are a variety of third parties that actually straight up embody Nintendo's best impulses better than Nintendo can at times, and we see some of those in the game third party wise and then there have been first party titles and even franchises that I would argue aren't particularly great or compelling either. Smash is just attempting to introduce people to new series and satisfy existing fans of that series, same as always, you just happen to not be in the priviledged seat of being directly appealed to at that moment.

Your opinion when you know next to nothing or haven't tried the game isn't invalid, but it can be worth less, and if you're coming to something as inherently discourse based as a Smash forum, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect others to actually try and learn a bit more. If you have a class discussion on a topic and you didn't do the reading, you're voice is inherently not going to contribute as much to the conversation at hand sort of thing. Especially a thread like this with an eye for speculation in general practically demands you do more leg work to discuss the topics at hand I would argue.
 

CaptainAmerica

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I've never really liked leak stuff in the first place. It's too easy to cut off discussion then.

"Vergeben says that Simon's in"
"I dunno. Castlevania's important but what about..."
"Simon. Nobody else."
"Not even..."
"S I M O N"
"Hey, can we also talk about K.Rool?"
"Verg confirmed no DK content, go away with that lame monkey business."
"But..."
"N O D K"
*later*
"WTF K.Rool is in? But Vergeben didn't say that!"

I kinda like that they've kept a lid on the DLC characters for the most part. I mean yeah, it's leaked a bit, but I don't really count "he leaked it 10 minutes before" as anything special. srsly, just wait the extra 10 minutes at that point.
 

Shroob

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I've never really liked leak stuff in the first place. It's too easy to cut off discussion then.

"Vergeben says that Simon's in"
"I dunno. Castlevania's important but what about..."
"Simon. Nobody else."
"Not even..."
"S I M O N"
"Hey, can we also talk about K.Rool?"
"Verg confirmed no DK content, go away with that lame monkey business."
"But..."
"N O D K"
*later*
"WTF K.Rool is in? But Vergeben didn't say that!"

I kinda like that they've kept a lid on the DLC characters for the most part. I mean yeah, it's leaked a bit, but I don't really count "he leaked it 10 minutes before" as anything special. srsly, just wait the extra 10 minutes at that point.
Verg saying no DK is one of those things that got played Telephone with soo badly it's not even funny.

He said he hadn't 'heard', which isn't a confirmation one way or another, it's we the people that took it to mean "NO NOT HAPPENING!" Also, LOZ18 being LOZ18.


This is just the sad reality of Ultimate. The entire base roster was leaked very early on to a TON of people. While we all played speculation, there was already a handful that knew everything that had nothing to do with the game's development.
 
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Opossum

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I've never really liked leak stuff in the first place. It's too easy to cut off discussion then.

"Vergeben says that Simon's in"
"I dunno. Castlevania's important but what about..."
"Simon. Nobody else."
"Not even..."
"S I M O N"
"Hey, can we also talk about K.Rool?"
"Verg confirmed no DK content, go away with that lame monkey business."
"But..."
"N O D K"
*later*
"WTF K.Rool is in? But Vergeben didn't say that!"

I kinda like that they've kept a lid on the DLC characters for the most part. I mean yeah, it's leaked a bit, but I don't really count "he leaked it 10 minutes before" as anything special. srsly, just wait the extra 10 minutes at that point.
Vergeben never said there wouldn't be DK content. He asked Loz if he'd heard if there was DK content and LoZ said no. Not Verge.
 

I.D.

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Speaking of leaks, I still dunno what to feel towards Verg in regards to DLC.


His track record, while shakey, still gives him a foot to stand on.



You don't just name drop ALL of the mii costumes during Byleth's presentation before they get shown off without at least seeing the Direct early.
He obviously had access to the presentation but so what? If his new "source" is some intern who only gets to see presentations a few minutes ahead of time then it's just not useful for anyone. Verge's track record for DLC was pretty terrible (even Erdrick was someone he namedropped before the game released and he didn't really know when we would get him) and the guess who game after Terry was just crap. Unless he has clear, to the point info ahead of time I don't see why anyone should care.
 

Shroob

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He obviously had access to the presentation but so what? If his new "source" is some intern who only gets to see presentations a few minutes ahead of time then it's just not useful for anyone. Verge's track record for DLC was pretty terrible (even Erdrick was someone he namedropped before the game released and he didn't really know when we would get him) and the guess who game after Terry was just crap. Unless he has clear, to the point info ahead of time I don't see why anyone should care.
Because if said intern has access to said info, then by all means, share.

People praised VRPlant for leaking stuff a day early, if I have to settle for an hour or less early, by all means.
 

Will

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Vergeben never said there wouldn't be DK content. He asked Loz if he'd heard if there was DK content and LoZ said no. Not Verge.
Oh dude, Loz, that total memer. ****ing "Skull Kid is in trust me" headass.
 
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I.D.

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Because if said intern has access to said info, then by all means, share.

People praised VRPlant for leaking stuff a day early, if I have to settle for an hour or less early, by all means.
I mean if it suits you okay. For the life of me I can't see why anyone cares that Verge leaked mii costumes in the middle of the presentation itself. Like... did anyone even see that post at the time it was made? Pretty sure anyone who cared enough about info to check for leaks would just be... watching the presentation itself while it was being broadcasted. I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a single person on the planet who learned about those mii costumes from Verge instead of the presentation.
 
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Shroob

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I mean if it suits you okay. For the life of me I can't see why anyone cares that Verge leaked mii costumes in the middle of the presentation itself. Like... did anyone even see that post at the time it was made? Pretty sure anyone who cared enough about info to check for leaks would just be... watching the presentation itself while it was being broadcasted. I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a single person on the planet who learned about those mii costumes from Verge instead of the presenation.
Because that means there are people that trust him enough still to feed him the information.

He openly shared the way he got said info, which was via DM, so there are some people out there crazy enough to leak **** to suspect 1# still.


Does it really *matter*? No, not really, but it'll always be fun to see if he has info to say during/very close to a Direct's presentation regardless, and if it lines up or not.
 
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Cosmic77

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If we're just a few days away from an authentic, unspoiled reveal, I'd rather stay in the dark instead of having Verge, VRPlant, or whoever come out and ruin the surprise. Maybe there are some who would love to see if they can get something right even if it's only a few minutes before it's officially revealed, but I've usually lost all interest in any leaks by that point.

That's just me though.
 
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Michael the Spikester

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Incineroar probably wouldn't of been "hated" had he and Ken were not leaked. I think the "hate" stems from that.
 
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Cosmic77

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Incineroar probably wouldn't of been "hated" had he and Ken were not leaked. I think the "hate" stems from that.
The hate primarily stems from two things:

(1) He killed the Grinch leak and confirmed Box Theory
(2) He wasn't Decidueye

I don't think Incineroar really deserved the hate though. He was already unfairly labeled as a bad starter when his design was leaked and people assumed he was a fighting type.
 

ZelDan

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Incineroar probably wouldn't of been "hated" had he and Ken were not leaked. I think the "hate" stems from that.
Nah, plenty of people have disliked Incineraor's design ever since it was shown off for Pokemon Sun/Moon (including me, which sucks because I initially wanted to go with Litten too...). That and there are a plethora of people that felt pokemon already had a ****load of reps and didn't want yet another one.

Incineroar was always going to be a lukewarm at best reveal that would have gotten a notable amount of hate or dislike I feel. The Box theory and Grinch leak certainly intensified it to some extent, but Incineroar was always doomed to get **** on quite a bit.
 
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