Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[RileyXY1]

I'll laugh when Porky still wriggles his way in the game.

That's not happening unless Mother 3 gets an official English release.

 

[Will]

That's not happening unless Mother 3 gets an official English release.

i be looking at terry and banjo as you say this

 

[Freduardo]

Tell me about it.

Also yeah, Mario's extended cast really went out and made a name for themselves via spinoffs. No one would even bother thinking about Wario or Daisy these days if not for the spinoffs reviving their popularity and keeping them important, much less have been vying for them in Smash at all.

Wario's main line Mario games consist of what? Super Mario Land 2 and arguably(as it's an 'enhanced' port) Mario 64 DS as far as I recall. No way he'd be remembered as fondly without his Wario Land and Ware games.

Then there's Mario Kart which really is the defacto kart racer...in fact the Kart racer genre is always inherently a spinoff whether it's Mario, Crash or even Sonic at the wheel.

What about when series have mainline games that spin off out of a kart racer? Like Banjo and Conker first appearing in Diddy Kong Racing?

 

[RileyXY1]

i be looking at terry and banjo as you say this

It's not the same because they were heavily popular and their games got English releases.

 

[Will]

It's not the same because they were heavily popular and their games got English releases.

Oh boohoo, it's not popular because the game series ended.

With Nintendo at the helm of choosing, and they already start off choosing ARMS, I'm up for anything being possible. Not in the sense that I'm creaming over something something fanrules, but I got no clue what crazy **** they'll do. You can try to use big brain high IQ analysis to try and predict what corporate would choose, but I guarantee failure in anticipating or seeming to know what they would or wouldn't do.

Ooo, what about Mike Jones? Animal Crossing New Horizons made a reference to StarTropics. He's got a ****ing yo-yo, that's hype.

 

[RileyXY1]

Oh boohoo, it's not popular because the game series ended.

With Nintendo at the helm of choosing, and they already start off choosing ARMS, I'm up for anything being possible. Not in the sense that I'm creaming over something something fanrules, but I got no clue what crazy **** they'll do. You can try to use big brain high IQ analysis to try and predict what corporate would choose, but I guarantee failure in anticipating or seeming to know what they would or wouldn't do.

Ooo, what about Mike Jones? Animal Crossing New Horizons made a reference to StarTropics. He's got a ****ing yo-yo, that's hype.

They can still easily choose a majority third party pass.

 

[Will]

They can still easily choose a majority third party pass.

Sure, that's their decision, I'm just giving first-party ideas.

 

[Freduardo]

Oh boohoo, it's not popular because the game series ended.

With Nintendo at the helm of choosing, and they already start off choosing ARMS, I'm up for anything being possible. Not in the sense that I'm creaming over something something fanrules, but I got no clue what crazy **** they'll do. You can try to use big brain high IQ analysis to try and predict what corporate would choose, but I guarantee failure in anticipating or seeming to know what they would or wouldn't do.

Ooo, what about Mike Jones? Animal Crossing New Horizons made a reference to StarTropics. He's got a ****ing yo-yo, that's hype.

What was the start tropics reference? Is it in the Japanese version?

Asking out of my desperate hope for more star tropics.

 

[Will]

What was the start tropics reference? Is it in the Japanese version?

Asking out of my desperate hope for more star tropics.

Gulliver mentions a location from the game. Not sure if it's in the Japanese version, though, but it'd be weird if one dev on the localization team really liked StarTropics that much.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Gulliver mentions a location from the game. Not sure if it's in the Japanese version, though, but it'd be weird if one dev on the localization team really liked StarTropics that much.

Japan never got Startropics so I highly ****in doubt it

 

[Phoenix Douchebag]

Oh boohoo, it's not popular because the game series ended.

With Nintendo at the helm of choosing, and they already start off choosing ARMS, I'm up for anything being possible. Not in the sense that I'm creaming over something something fanrules, but I got no clue what crazy **** they'll do. You can try to use big brain high IQ analysis to try and predict what corporate would choose, but I guarantee failure in anticipating or seeming to know what they would or wouldn't do.

Ooo, what about Mike Jones? Animal Crossing New Horizons made a reference to StarTropics. He's got a ****ing yo-yo, that's hype.

I sure wish i shared your optimism. I kinda hope for Rhythm Heaven to finally have their redemption arc.

and i sure wish we got Mike Jones, but alas, it wasn't released in Japan therefore it doesn't exist

 

[Will]

Japan never got Startropics so I highly ****in doubt it

so you're saying there's a chance, gwen?

 

[Guynamednelson]

Gulliver mentions a location from the game. Not sure if it's in the Japanese version, though, but it'd be weird if one dev on the localization team really liked StarTropics that much.

It's the localizers trying to add more flavor to Gulliver's dialog.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I'm so glad some people here will never become game developers.

Imagine rejecting the potential of so many franchises purely because of the unfounded idea that worldbuilding must be inseparable from gameplay.

Imagine rejecting the potential of so many franchises purely because they didn't have an already recognized name attached to them.

Imagine the worlds that wouldn't exist if people never bothered to make up new ones.

Splatoon could have very easily been a Mario spinoff about Blooper people. It's art style is similar to a 3D Mario game, their squid forms even look like Bloopers, it easily could have been.

Instead, Nintendo decided to make it it's own thing. And now, there's an entirely different game world with it's own personality to it. And that world is popular despite not saying "Super Mario: Ink Wars!" on the cover.

 

[RileyXY1]

Nintendo likes to pretend that StarTropics doesn't exist because it was never released in Japan.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Nintendo likes to pretend that StarTropics doesn't exist because it was never released in Japan.

is there a particular reason why?

 

[Will]

is there a particular reason why?

yeah its pretty obvious

because it was never released in Japan.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Nintendo likes to pretend that StarTropics doesn't exist because it was never released in Japan.

Nintendo of Japan, maybe. NoA's fine with acknowledging its existence.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Nintendo of Japan, maybe. NoA's fine with acknowledging its existence.

But aren't Nintendo of Japan the ones in charge?

 

[Cosmic77]

I still think that this will also be a mostly third-party pass.

Keep in mind that about a month ago you said that the second pass would be exclusively third-party. The first fighter is first-party.

It's still too soon to say whether or not this pass will continue emphasizing third-parties (or even first-parties really), especially since we have virtually nothing to support that claim outside personal opinions.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

But aren't Nintendo of Japan the ones in charge?

Localization teams exist for a reason, NoJ doesn't dictate the NoA dialogue or the NoE dialogue

 

[Will]

edit: dude i keep posting in the wrong thread

Whatever the reason is for the Startropics reference, at least they teased at its existence.

 

[RileyXY1]

Keep in mind that about a month ago you said that the second pass would be exclusively third-party. The first fighter is first-party.

It's still too soon to say whether or not this pass will continue emphasizing third-parties (or even first-parties really), especially since we have virtually nothing to support that claim outside personal opinions.

Mostly because there are barely any first-party options unless they are going to shill games that we don't even know exist.

Imagine rejecting the potential of so many franchises purely because they didn't have an already recognized name attached to them.

Imagine the worlds that wouldn't exist if people never bothered to make up new ones.

Splatoon could have very easily been a Mario spinoff about Blooper people. It's art style is similar to a 3D Mario game, their squid forms even look like Bloopers, it easily could have been.

Instead, Nintendo decided to make it it's own thing. And now, there's an entirely different game world with it's own personality to it. And that world is popular despite not saying "Super Mario: Ink Wars!" on the cover.

And you're right that Splatoon was almost a Mario spinoff.

 

[epicmartin7]

Well boys, here are mathematical equations and data sets to predict Smash Bros. release dates based on Amiibo Theory!

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1OGGA78Npy-u4OrSyyGbgt_X0gXDdmNL_

x = amiibo date
y= character release date

Now... I should stress this isn't a magic 8-Ball. This is only meant to aid predictions, not make them. A good example is finding an amiibo date that's not on Friday (if you use an inverse equation.) That can happen as an output. So it's good to just use your judgement to find a Friday near that date or something.

Also, the scale is different compared to the regular calendar system. "0" represents December 31st, 2018. While everything is in terms of January 2019. So Smash Ultimate's release date would be "January -24th, 2019" as funny as it sounds. So before you input anything or read your output, you need to reconvert the date back to the standard calendar system or to the new scale depending on if it's an input or output.

If you do have any questions, I'll do my best to answer them. However, I will be releasing a thesis on this in the future. So this release is kind of like a "beta" almost, and is just for fun to see how people can figure out these tools before true instructions arrive.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

is there a particular reason why?

The series creator, Genyou Takeda specifically made the game to advertise to western audiences and there were no plans to release it in Japan.

Here's a video about it. He explains the history behind it during the beginning of the video.

 

[Mikegamer0608]

Imagine rejecting the potential of so many franchises purely because they didn't have an already recognized name attached to them.

Imagine the worlds that wouldn't exist if people never bothered to make up new ones.

Splatoon could have very easily been a Mario spinoff about Blooper people. It's art style is similar to a 3D Mario game, their squid forms even look like Bloopers, it easily could have been.

Instead, Nintendo decided to make it it's own thing. And now, there's an entirely different game world with it's own personality to it. And that world is popular despite not saying "Super Mario: Ink Wars!" on the cover.

Funny enough the original concept for Splatoon was that they were gonna be rabbits at first.
https://catwithmonocle.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/splatoon-gdc-10.jpg

 

[YoshiandToad]

Funny enough the original concept for Splatoon was that they were gonna be rabbits at first.

I guess I can see how Splatoon would still work with a burrowing animal.

Sonic was also originally going to be a rabbit...

...for whatever reason rabbits seem to be the go to prototype video game characters for mascot games before they get turned into something else completely.

What about when series have mainline games that spin off out of a kart racer? Like Banjo and Conker first appearing in Diddy Kong Racing?

An even better case for spinoffs being a good thing.

Donkey Kong Country is referred to as a Mario spinoff(this is up for debate by all means), Diddy Kong Racing is a spinoff of that, Banjo and Conker are individual spinoffs of that making them spinoffs, of a spinoff of a spinoff.

 

[UberPyro64]

Source Gaming did a video on all the content we could get from Arms. They selected Min Min as the Fighter. Though they go into detail why over Spring Man or a Hero situation.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Imagine rejecting the potential of so many franchises purely because they didn't have an already recognized name attached to them.

Imagine the worlds that wouldn't exist if people never bothered to make up new ones.

Splatoon could have very easily been a Mario spinoff about Blooper people. It's art style is similar to a 3D Mario game, their squid forms even look like Bloopers, it easily could have been.

Instead, Nintendo decided to make it it's own thing. And now, there's an entirely different game world with it's own personality to it. And that world is popular despite not saying "Super Mario: Ink Wars!" on the cover.

osby wasn't trying to argue that you shouldn't make new franchises, just that, if you want to take a franchise in a different direction, you should be able to do so. It's how we get our Mario Karts, Pokémon Colloseums, and Kid Icarus: Uprisings. The latter is more of a reboot than a spin-off, but I think it still works with the point I'm making.

Donkey Kong Country is referred to as a Mario spinoff(this is up for debate by all means), Diddy Kong Racing is a spinoff of that, Banjo and Conker are individual spinoffs of that making them spinoffs, of a spinoff of a spinoff.

I think that since Donkey Kong Country is considered to be part of the Donkey Kong series (or rather, since Donkey Kong is considered to be a part of the Donkey Kong Country series) I think Donkey Kong Country classifies more as a reboot that heavily emulates the Super Mario Bros. series. much like Mighty Gunvolt Burst emulates the Mega Man series.

 

[MBRedboy31]

What about when series have mainline games that spin off out of a kart racer? Like Banjo and Conker first appearing in Diddy Kong Racing?

In Banjo’s case, wasn’t that more of a Roy in Melee situation where they put him in a crossover to promote him before his actual debut game released?

 

[Guynamednelson]

unless they are going to shill games that we don't even know exist

So are you assuming the ARMS rep is gonna be some ARMS 2 newcomer?

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

StarTropics is the biggest missed opportunity in Nintendo history.

it was a rather popular NES franchise, including Zoda’s Revenge, that they just decided to... NOT continue. No good reason. They just stopped.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

So are you assuming the ARMS rep is gonna be some ARMS 2 newcomer?

I doubt this'll happen, as it was pointed out that showing us a list of potential candidates, and then picking someone that wasn't on the list and hadn't even made their official debut would be a huge rug pull, and would piss off fans of the previously existing characters.

 

[blackghost]

Every Metroid game is made by a different studio, they don't have a dedicated development team like Mario and Zelda do in Nintendo R&D1/'the main Nintendo team', or a developer who literally put out nothing but games for the franchise like HAL with Kirby. At best you have Retro who only ever made Metroid Prime, and not even all of the Metroid Prime games; Hunters was Nintendo Software Technology, Other M brought in Team Ninja, Federation Force was Next Level Games, Samus Returns was MercurySteam.

It's the difference between a kid spending the weekend at their grandparents house and an orphan who gets kicked from house to house.

it also explains why Metroid has such an inconsistent game and franchise history with even the prime series having a divisive game, that one spinoff being made i wont name, and long droughts in the series history while zelda and mario have such high consistency a "bad" zelda game come down to fans preferring an artstyle over another and mario a "bad" game was 3-d land i guess? idk if that should even count.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

yeah its pretty obvious

It would have been more charitable to interpret his comment as asking why Star Tropics wasn't released in Japan.

 

[Will]

It would have been more charitable to interpret his comment as asking why Star Tropics wasn't released in Japan.

I believe it was made specifically for American release from the get-go, though that's information I vaguely remember from DYKG years ago.

 

[Garteam]

Source Gaming did a video on all the content we could get from Arms. They selected Min Min as the Fighter. Though they go into detail why over Spring Man or a Hero situation.

I normally like Source Gaming's stuff, but man, their argument against multiple reps as alts is extremely weak.

"It would be weird to have one pack of the Fighter's Pass have more value than the rest of the pass."
This already happened multiple times in the last pass. Joker and Terry had more spirit battles than the other packs, Hero had more unique alts than everyone else, and Terry had more music than literally everyone else combined. It's pretty clear Sakurai isn't going to limit the content in each pass to ensure equality.

"Unlike the Heroes, the ARMS characters have unique identities and abilities. Combining them is like putting Ryu, Akuma, Sakura, and Dan into the same slot."
Woo boy. A lot to unpack here, and all of it is wrong.

First off, the Heroes do have unique abilities in their source material that aren't translated to Smash. Eight lost the ability to use spears and boomerangs, Solo lost his knives, bows, and axes, Erdrick lost his whips, and Eleven lost his two-handed greatswords. Likewise, they gained previously only usable by one other hero (Eight is the only one of the heroes to use Psyche Up in Dragon Quest) and were never usable by any of them (no Dragon Quest hero can use the Woosh series of spells in game). What makes these characters work within a single moveset is their lowest common denominator: they all use swords, shields, and some of the same magic. As such, losing some abilities and gaining others isn't a huge deal, because their general outline is consistent with their most primary abilities in Dragon Quest.

Similarly, Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, Ninjara, and Min Min also have a lowest common denominator: relatively balanced stats, a similar build, and punching/grabbing with long stretchy arms. These are the key elements that make these four unique relative to other characters in both inside and outside of ARMS. As such, these characters feel like themselves when they display these abilities. Do these four have unique attributes from each other they could capitalize on in a Smash appearance? Of course, but these are tertiary abilities that could realistically be sacrificed or distributed to all four to flesh out their moveset, similar to the unique aspects of the heroes.

The shotos, by comparison, are a bad example because they don't have this common denominator. While they all share the hadoken, shoryuken, and tatsumaki, the way these abilities function are drastically different. Akuma has dark hadokens that he can fire in the air, Sakura has shorter hadokens that she can charge and send at an angle, and Dan has weak hadokens that are fired with one hand. The Dragon Quest heroes, by comparison, use a similar style of swordplay and have a good number of overlapping spells (the frizz family, the zap family, the snooze family, the heal family, etc). The ARMS characters are in a similar boat. They mostly throw standards jabs that they can then curve to hit opponents. Assuming they're using the same family of ARMS, Spring Man punching someone is not that different from Ribbon Girl punching someone.

TL;DR: The Heroes are unique but have a common abilities that let them share a spot. This is similar to Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, Ninjara, and Min Min, but not the Shotos.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I believe it was made specifically for American release from the get-go, though that's information I vaguely remember from DYKG years ago.

The chips in StarTropics cartridges' Japanese equivalents were too expensive for mass production.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

"It would be weird to have one pack of the Fighter's Pass have more value than the rest of the pass."
This already happened multiple times in the last pass. Joker and Terry had more spirit battles than the other packs, Hero had more unique alts than everyone else, and Terry had more music than literally everyone else combined. It's pretty clear Sakurai isn't going to limit the content in each pass to ensure equality.

It's a little different from one of the Challenger Packs having a whole extra separate character. Not saying they couldn't do it, I just don't think it'd go over well, especially if it's the only character with an echo fighter.

EDIT EDIT: But hey, no complaints from me if they do. I'll just worry that fans of the other Fighters Pass characters are gonna feel short changed if they don't also get Echo Fighters.

Of course, but these are tertiary abilities that could realistically be sacrificed or distributed to all four to flesh out their moveset,

No. They're the abilities that the characters are based around. They may not be attacks, but they are the core of how their respective characters operate.

EDIT: A character that has two or more (or none, or just one of someone else's) of the ARMS character's abilities would be a completely different character.

The shotos, by comparison, are a bad example because they don't have this common denominator. While they all share the hadoken, shoryuken, and tatsumaki, the way these abilities function are drastically different. Akuma has dark hadokens that he can fire in the air, Sakura has shorter hadokens that she can charge and send at an angle, and Dan has weak hadokens that are fired with one hand.

The shotos are actually a great example. They all have the same core moveset, but their properties are what make them incredibly different. Yeah it's attack properties rather than movement properties, but the effect is still the same.

 

[blackghost]

I normally like Source Gaming's stuff, but man, their argument against multiple reps as alts is extremely weak.

"It would be weird to have one pack of the Fighter's Pass have more value than the rest of the pass."
This already happened multiple times in the last pass. Joker and Terry had more spirit battles than the other packs, Hero had more unique alts than everyone else, and Terry had more music than literally everyone else combined. It's pretty clear Sakurai isn't going to limit the content in each pass to ensure equality.

"Unlike the Heroes, the ARMS characters have unique identities and abilities. Combining them is like putting Ryu, Akuma, Sakura, and Dan into the same slot."
Woo boy. A lot to unpack here, and all of it is wrong.

First off, the Heroes do have unique abilities in their source material that aren't translated to Smash. Eight lost the ability to use spears and boomerangs, Solo lost his knives, bows, and axes, Erdrick lost his whips, and Eleven lost his two-handed greatswords. Likewise, they gained previously only usable by one other hero (Eight is the only one of the heroes to use Psyche Up in Dragon Quest) and were never usable by any of them (no Dragon Quest hero can use the Woosh series of spells in game). What makes these characters work within a single moveset is their lowest common denominator: they all use swords, shields, and some of the same magic. As such, losing some abilities and gaining others isn't a huge deal, because their general outline is consistent with their most primary abilities in Dragon Quest.

Similarly, Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, Ninjara, and Min Min also have a lowest common denominator: relatively balanced stats, a similar build, and punching/grabbing with long stretchy arms. These are the key elements that make these four unique relative to other characters in both inside and outside of ARMS. As such, these characters feel like themselves when they display these abilities. Do these four have unique attributes from each other they could capitalize on in a Smash appearance? Of course, but these are tertiary abilities that could realistically be sacrificed or distributed to all four to flesh out their moveset, similar to the unique aspects of the heroes.

The shotos, by comparison, are a bad example because they don't have this common denominator. While they all share the hadoken, shoryuken, and tatsumaki, the way these abilities function are drastically different. Akuma has dark hadokens that he can fire in the air, Sakura has shorter hadokens that she can charge and send at an angle, and Dan has weak hadokens that are fired with one hand. The Dragon Quest heroes, by comparison, use a similar style of swordplay and have a good number of overlapping spells (the frizz family, the zap family, the snooze family, the heal family, etc). The ARMS characters are in a similar boat. They mostly throw standards jabs that they can then curve to hit opponents. Assuming they're using the same family of ARMS, Spring Man punching someone is not that different from Ribbon Girl punching someone.

TL;DR: The Heroes are unique but have a common abilities that let them share a spot. This is similar to Spring Man, Ribbon Girl, Ninjara, and Min Min, but not the Shotos.

you cannot play ribbon girl like ninjara or min-min and vice versa. They dont have each others mechanics. giving triple jump to min-min would just be wierd and ruins what makes each one different. Just like If ryu had akuma teleport it wouldnt work either. Saying arms characters are all the same becuase they have similar builds and "punch each other" just is ignoring what the game itself presents. When fighting game characters have movesets the only time sakurai has made up a move to fill out the smash moveset has been terry's upair. It would be a complete departure for sakurai to now start making up moves for an arms character other than min-min to kick.

plus honestly i view the collection of heros as more of a fanservice and repsect deserved of DQ for its legacy and impact. which Arms doesnt have.

an entire extra echo character is very different from terry having more music or hero having more alts.