Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[PeridotGX]

How does this sound for a stage DLC pack for Ultimate?

Returning

• Sector Z
• Mute City (Melee)
• Rainbow Road
• Woolly World

New

• Homecoming Hijinks
• Ryme City Pokémon Carnival (aka Pokéfloats 2)
• Central Highway (MMX)
• Pac-Maze Championship Edition

I don't like how the new Pokemon stage is just floating models 2, but Rainbow Road and Central Highway more than make up for it.

I have a few fighter concepts I'd like to see in Smash, can you guys give me a character that could fit these? It's a semi-"sell me on" concept.

1. Somebody who starts out overpowered at the beginning of a match, for whatever reason, but over time gradually loses steam. Maybe a character who starts with amazing range, over time slowly getting worse. Maybe a character who has really good bursts of speed and atrocius sustained speed, be it in movement or attacks. A loss of non-renewable resources for fantastic moves: basically Wonderwing, the character?
2. The opposite concept to the first one; starts relatively to very underpowered, but through either skilled play or gathering resources, becomes much more powerful. (This is actually how I envision Arle playing, though she's relative and not very.)
3. A more fundamentals focused character who has a pretty good everything, but no major x-factor ability or move that defines them. They just do what they do really well.
4. Somebody who's focused on edgeguarding, being really bad at getting outright kills but having a lot of tools to cause gimps or dunk opponents offstage. Would likely be packaged with a good recovery, but that's not important.
5. Somebody who can't get blast zone KO's, or edgeguard very well, but can straight up instakill with a move when the opponent is at a high enough percent. Likely a special move, but it could be any move you want.
6. A supporter character built for team matches, having moves to heal teammates and immobilize or otherwise pacify opponents, but being not very good in one-on-one matches.

5. This was part of my idea for Frisk. There are two ways to play them: "Genocidal" and "Pacifistic". Genocidal is pretty much regular Smash, but Pacifistic is stalling and not doing much damage. If you play pacifist, after awhile you get a new special attack: "SPARE", which is an OHKO.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

#1 we've had and the community resoundingly rejected it. Along with the type effectiveness, had the stamina mechanic that weakened them if they were out too long without switching. Most people seem really happy that that mechanic is gone.

That's like starting off with Arsene and then just sucking

It's certainly a very difficult thing to balance, as it makes for a glass cannon character that takes away your options rather than just being generally frail. It can theoretically be done though. Competitive custom character tournaments in Rivals of Aether often allow the use of Bird Guy The OC (Copyright friendly Archen), who becomes stronger when his percent is lower than the opponent's, but weaker when it gets higher. He exists in a small subset of a scene I don't really follow, but from what I have seen the character doesn't seem to have a stigma on it like, say, Little Mac does in the Smash scene.

You're so desperate for the possiblity of bonus DLC that's never going to happen. Accept that we're only getting six Fighters and that it. With everything going on in the world Vol 2 will be the last thing ever to be added to Ultimate.

COVID-19 isn't going to stop DLC that would start its planning phase next year, and while I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that there will be more DLC, I'm not sure there's any evidence against it (aside from Sakurai's fatigue, but we don't really know how much that would factor into the decision). I wouldn't say the chances are high, but they're definitely nonzero.

 

[Wademan94]

I don't like how the new Pokemon stage is just floating models 2, but Rainbow Road and Central Highway more than make up for it.

I will say that my initial idea as Tiny Woods from Mystery Dungeon, but everyone’s been clamoring for Pokefloats and I recently came up with it and I wanted to see how everyone would react.

Also why did you quote it here?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

https://sourcegaming.info/2020/03/23/sakurai-on-covid/ BTW, here's the outright link to it. ...Okay, that's an older interview. My bad. Still, it's important to keep in mind.

Sakurai knows development could temporarily stop.

Notice how he does not say it would actually stop any plans outright? Yeah. He isn't going to be outright stopped from the idea of bonus DLC. There's no reason to believe it cannot happen. There's no reality in which Sakurai has declared it's 100% over after this. Yes, that could happen too. I'm leaning towards it being that way due to COVID19.

For the record, the only thing that seems desperate is to shut down extra possibilities. There's zero evidence we can't have anything more. We only have a case where Sakurai is repeating what he said with the last DLC period. And what do you know, things changed. Of course we might just get these 6. We have one bonus DLC(that has no tangible evidence proving it was ever base to begin with. Those all are inconclusive as is), nothing stating this is "it" either. What we do have is Sakurai saying he has no current plans for more. That's all it means. He hasn't made more decisions. Yet.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I don't like how the new Pokemon stage is just floating models 2, but Rainbow Road and Central Highway more than make up for it.

I think a Pokéfloats sequel could make for a pretty cool stage. The fact that the Pokémon are supposed to be larger than life balloons would be fully realized, and you could have a cool background that isn't just clouds.

 

[Wademan94]

I think a Pokéfloats sequel could make for a pretty cool stage. The fact that the Pokémon are supposed to be larger than life balloons would be fully realized, and you could have a cool background that isn't just clouds.

That’s what I had in mind, I think the Ryme City Pokémon Festival in Detective Pikachu would make a great backdrop for this idea.

 

[Guynamednelson]

The fact that the Pokémon are supposed to be larger than life balloons would be fully realized

I still wish I could find that fake leak which showed off Poke Floats 2 with the titular floats being hot-air balloons.

 

[Opossum]

Honestly yeah Piranha Plant was 100% meant for the base roster. The amount of evidence pointing to that is pretty undeniable. The amiibo, the guidance, Sakurai's development philosophy, the lack of a base game spirit despite the Nipper Plant to Petey evolution not making too much sense, Greninja's weird classic mode discrepancy...it's not just a set of coincidences.

It was meant for base but was low enough priority that they ran out of time.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Honestly yeah Piranha Plant was 100% meant for the base roster. The amount of evidence pointing to that is pretty undeniable. The amiibo, the guidance, Sakurai's development philosophy, the lack of a base game spirit despite the Nipper Plant to Petey evolution not making too much sense, Greninja's weird classic mode discrepancy...it's not just a set of coincidences.

It was meant for base but was low enough priority that they ran out of time.

care to elaborate on this? i haven't played Greninja's classic mode yet so

 

[Opossum]

care to elaborate on this? i haven't played Greninja's classic mode yet so

The battles feature Greninja battling teams based on Pokémon types. Usually a Pokémon (or two) of a type, and then another fighter (or two) that match it. Psychic with Mewtwo, Ness, and Lucas. Electric with Pikachu, Pichu, and Zero Suit Samus. Fighting with Lucario, Ryu, and Ken.

And then...Ivysaur, all alone, for Grass. Despite them being able to use Villager or Peach. Or even Olimar. It's clear to me that Piranha Plant was meant to be Ivysaur's partner here.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm sorry, but the Classic Mode thing is not a discrepancy. Like, at all. That's just pure conjecture to begin with(there's no actual Grass types. In fact, PP not being there makes sense. It was, you know, never an idea for it. The lack of Olimar or Alph is the oddity, since that's actually based around specific Plants. Not a bonus DLC character, which again, is clear conjecture. They had confirmed base characters and ignored it, who fit just as well. The lack of any of them is equally strange, making it hardly a useful point of evidence in any way. That's ignoring actual context in this case. If PP was base, it would not inherently have been in that spot either. That's why it's purely conjecture). Nor is the spirit thing. There's really nothing special about that at all. Petey is not a regular Piranha Plant either. That's only slightly pointing to it, mayyyybe, but it's a stretch. Nipper Plant turning into Petey is strange on its own. But so is Toad turning into Captain Toad, despite them being entirely different people in the games. Spirits are extremely odd and don't follow accuracy to their games inherently. They just "are a neat concept" at times. Don't forget Sakurai didn't choose the spirits, his team did. They aren't going to be accurate about it all the time. They chose incorrect spirit images for things, including a fan image. Spirits are perhaps the worst argument for it. If PP was a removed spirit from the original list data-wise, then it'd actually point to it. And only slightly.

There's nothing "undeniable". Palutena's Guidance is unknown when it took place and is horrible evidence to begin with. Amiibo only mean something if you ignore any context of why not all are released at the same time. We damn well know some take more time than others. Again, the only actual questionable piece is the random missing data slot in the data at best.

The design philosophy doesn't work either. It also goes against being planned for base, since that would remove it from the initial project plan to put it on a new project plan. DLC is not the same "plan" as base game. I actually forgot about that key detail. If nobody was added or removed from the initial base game plan, that includes PP. He can't be "changed to DLC" with that in mind. It's far more likely he was always DLC and added to a new plan for it as early as March 2017, really. The reason for bonus is just like Mewtwo, who was not planned for base either, but to also promote buying the game early. Which actually makes sense for Sakurai, since it fits his entire philosophy more.

Just cause multiple coincidences exist don't mean they're anything but coincidences.

We won't know anything unless Sakurai says something, but trying to use flimsy evidence and pretend it's as clear as day won't make it so.

 

[Opossum]

I'm sorry, but the Classic Mode thing is not a discrepancy. Like, at all. That's just pure conjecture to begin with. Nor is the spirit thing. There's really nothing special about that at all. Petey is not a regular Piranha Plant either. That's only slightly pointing to it, mayyyybe, but it's a stretch. Nipper Plant turning into Petey is strange on its own. But so is Toad turning into Captain Toad, despite them being entirely different people in the games. Spirits are extremely odd and don't follow accuracy to their games inherently. They just "are a neat concept" at times. Don't forget Sakurai didn't choose the spirits, his team did. They aren't going to be accurate about it all the time. They chose incorrect spirit images for things, including a fan image. Spirits are perhaps the worst argument for it. If PP was a removed spirit from the original list data-wise, then it'd actually point to it. And only slightly.

There's nothing "undeniable". Palutena's Guidance is unknown when it took place and is horrible evidence to begin with. Amiibo only mean something if you ignore any context of why not all are released at the same time. We damn well know some take more time than others. Again, the only actual questionable piece is the random missing data slot in the data at best.

The design philosophy doesn't work either. It also goes against being planned for base, since that would remove it from the initial project plan to put it on a new project plan. DLC is not the same "plan" as base game. I actually forgot about that key detail. If nobody was added or removed from the initial base game plan, that includes PP. He can't be "changed to DLC" with that in mind. It's far more likely he was always DLC and added to a new plan for it as early as March 2017, really. The reason for bonus is just like Mewtwo, who was not planned for base either, but to also promote buying the game early. Which actually makes sense for Sakurai, since it fits his entire philosophy more.

Just cause multiple coincidences exist don't mean they're anything but coincidences.

We won't know anything unless Sakurai says something, but trying to use flimsy evidence and pretend it's as clear as day won't make it so.

You're only calling it flimsy because you decided that you were right going into this, just like every other debate you get in, and won't so much as acknowledge the possibility of being wrong. We've been through this song and dance countless times so I'm not going to try and convince you further.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You're only calling it flimsy because you decided that you were right going into this, just like every other debate you get in, and won't so much as acknowledge the possibility of being wrong. We've been through this song and dance countless times so I'm not going to try and convince you further.

No. It's flimsy because there's a lot of conjecture that doesn't actually lead to anything clear.

You can't decide spirits magically work one way when they're all over the place. Tons of stuff make zero sense. The spirits were done actually poorly in accuracy so it means nothing useful at all. They used a fan sprite, for cripes' sake. They got an actual evolution incorrectly. It's an actual fact Toad and Captain Toad aren't the same person. It was done just for fun, not based upon some kind of accuracy to begin with. Then there's the hilarious part about the Absolute Safety Capsule. It's the empty sprite. It was most likely meant to represent Porky, but simply didn't do enough research. They've clearly done some, but didn't care to perfect anything in particular. But the kicker is only 3 spirits were removed, and none were PP. Nor Nipper Plant. Etc. It would've made sense to give DLC to coincidence with PP via the Nipper Plant one. That wasn't done. No Spirits actually really relate hard to PP, just mere guesses.

There is no actual timeframe for Palutena's Guidances so it's entirely meaningless as evidence. It has to have been done earlier than 2017 for all of them at once for that to count. Unless you can name when it's done, it's not useful whatsoever and just conjecture entirely.

Classic Mode is a bunk point. It requires you to imagine something must be something because it must exist. If Ivysaur couldn't get a partner in completely logical plant-based choices, PP isn't in a better position for that. Peach is a stretch since she isn't focused on plant moves either. Olimar kind of works, if not the best option since it's a plant-based moveset to begin with, but also represents other elements. It's far more likely that nobody else represented pure Grass(like the rest of the elements being represented) so only Ivysaur was kept. Every example are "pure element" characters, which doesn't apply for any but Ivysaur for Grass. That's another logical conclusion to come to. Nobody else fit. PP isn't "just Grass" either, after all. Why don't anyone else fit besides PP then? That's the problem with the conclusion. It requires you to ignore that other characters work as equally as PP does, forcing only one logical scenario. When there's multiple ones.

Amiibo are provenly all over the place. There's no clear rules on how they work. What we do know is not all take the same amount of time to do so. It's barely a year in advance for a 1st party, which actually fits PP, who could've been decided as early as March 2017, or even earlier. We don't know when it was decided upon due to flimsy information with a severe lack of details. As I explained before, some have to take longer due to licensing factors. That's the only key difference. There is zero consistency on what's released first. There's no obvious order. And there can't be, because it's impossible to do so when they don't take the same amount of time to make. They don't group everything together as it should be. Production isn't equal in the end. That's why it's not a meaningful point. It's not consistent enough outside of PP to actually prove anything.

I'll repeat again on the project plan; DLC was never part of the plan. DLC is its own plan as well. That's a change to the original base plan roster. In order for PP to be base, his wording was completely off and his philosophy isn't actually as accurate he portrayed. Seeing as how he has said stuff that's a bit off, that is possible. But it leads way more towards it being part of the new DLC plan. Which was its own thing to begin with. The conclusion is a second plan(which does not contradict his philosophy or statement) was created later on, and he chose a neat bonus character. This is just one possibility of how it could work, but it also fits his wording extremely well. Project plan 1 and Project plan 2 make a lot of sense for him.

 

[Opossum]

Anyway, to move onto something more productive, if you could pick one spirit to upgrade to playable, who would you pick? However, there's a condition: it must be a Novice spirit.

 

[Deleted member]

Anyway, to move onto something more productive, if you could pick one spirit to upgrade to playable, who would you pick? However, there's a condition: it must be a Novice spirit.

Bonus Fruit.

Gotta flex those creative muscles you know.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

It's an actual fact Toad and Captain Toad aren't the same person.

Toad is a species as much as it is a character. It's not that big of a stretch.

 

[Wademan94]

Anyway, to move onto something more productive, if you could pick one spirit to upgrade to playable, who would you pick? However, there's a condition: it must be a Novice spirit.

Jill Valentine.

 

[PeridotGX]

Anyway, to move onto something more productive, if you could pick one spirit to upgrade to playable, who would you pick? However, there's a condition: it must be a Novice spirit.

Smeargale would be fun, his moves could be a whole lot of random Pokemon moves.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Anyway, to move onto something more productive, if you could pick one spirit to upgrade to playable, who would you pick? However, there's a condition: it must be a Novice spirit.

Well, that was easy for me.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Toad is a species as much as it is a character. It's not that big of a stretch.

That's my point. They don't care about accuracy. They just go with what is just an easy thing to do at the time.

It makes sense to throw two plant Super Mario characters together for an evolution too. That's why it's a really poor point. Pure conjecture based upon nothing substantial.

-----------------

As for novice spirits, I wish there was an easy list to find >.<. Jill Valentine easily, though.

 

[Megadoomer]

Anyway, to move onto something more productive, if you could pick one spirit to upgrade to playable, who would you pick? However, there's a condition: it must be a Novice spirit.

(I just rewatched the Rise of Skywalker, so Star Wars is going to be on my mind for a while)

The Shake King from Wario Land: Shake It. No idea why the final boss of a game is a Novice spirit, but he is.

Alternatively, Alexandra Roivas from Eternal Darkness.

I'm torn - on one hand, Eternal Darkness would bring a lot more to Smash, and I'd love to see the potential stages as well as how the developers would incorporate the game's magic system, but on the other hand, I really want to see Smash Bros. give us more content from the Wario Land games. (which were seemingly the reason why people wanted Wario in Smash to begin with)

 

[Schnee117]

Anyway, to move onto something more productive, if you could pick one spirit to upgrade to playable, who would you pick? However, there's a condition: it must be a Novice spirit.

Finally...
He's in...

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Anyway, to move onto something more productive, if you could pick one spirit to upgrade to playable, who would you pick? However, there's a condition: it must be a Novice spirit.

Eevee

for being fairly notable in Pokemon itself, it always felt like a weird omission when it comes to Smash, idk

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Anyway, to move onto something more productive, if you could pick one spirit to upgrade to playable, who would you pick? However, there's a condition: it must be a Novice spirit.

Mach rider could be very cool, I like retro characters and I think that it have great moveset potential.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I wish there was an easy list to find

https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_spirits_(complete_list)
Click on class to sort them by star rating.

Also, Mach Rider is a one star spirit? I'd expect it to be two stars at least.

 

[Zinith]

Anyway, to move onto something more productive, if you could pick one spirit to upgrade to playable, who would you pick? However, there's a condition: it must be a Novice spirit.

Yarn Poochy

Yes, "YARN" Poochy. Regular Poochy isn't a Spirit :galaxybrainthink:

 

[Megadoomer]

As for novice spirits, I wish there was an easy list to find >.<. Jill Valentine easily, though.

https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_spirits_(complete_list)

If you click on the arrows at the top of the table, you can sort the list by class.

EDIT: 'd

 

[Opossum]

Anywho I'd pick Merric because Merric's the best.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_spirits_(complete_list)
Click on class to sort them by star rating.

Also, Mach Rider is a one star spirit? I'd expect it to be two stars at least.

Yes surprisingly he's a one star (he's the third one on this link https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_spirits_(Others) ). Some spirits rank are really weird.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_spirits_(complete_list)

If you click on the arrows at the top of the table, you can sort the list by class.

EDIT: 'd

https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_spirits_(complete_list)
Click on class to sort them by star rating.

Also, Mach Rider is a one star spirit? I'd expect it to be two stars at least.

Oddly enough I had an answer before this. Thanks for linking, though. I wish a lot of other wiki(a) sites bothered to do this. -_-

Like the Yugioh wikia doesn't bother to list "ocg only" or "tcg only" as its own thing. That just makes stuff harder to find.

 

[Wademan94]

Finally...
He's in...

better hide his ass.

 

[smashkirby]

Anyway, to move onto something more productive, if you could pick one spirit to upgrade to playable, who would you pick? However, there's a condition: it must be a Novice spirit.

Any retro characters, I guess.

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

Yes surprisingly he's a one star (he's the third one on this link https://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_spirits_(Others) ). Some spirits rank are really weird.

I remember there being a feel memes made right after the November direct, the part were they showed off Spirit rankings and Whispy Woods had a higher ranking than Infinite.

 

[Schnee117]

I remember there being a feel memes made right after the November direct, the part were they showed off Spirit rankings and Whispy Woods had a higher ranking than Infinite.

"I'm not weak" intensifies

 

[wynn728]

COVID-19 isn't going to stop DLC that would start its planning phase next year, and while I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that there will be more DLC, I'm not sure there's any evidence against it (aside from Sakurai's fatigue, but we don't really know how much that would factor into the decision). I wouldn't say the chances are high, but they're definitely nonzero.

Vol 2 isn't finishing until 2021 and things are definitely getting delayed. With the delays and smaller development team it's extremely likely they're going to be done with Ultimate once Vol 2 is finished.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Anyway, to move onto something more productive, if you could pick one spirit to upgrade to playable, who would you pick? However, there's a condition: it must be a Novice spirit.

Mach Rider. Easy.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

There's also a lot of weird ranking in the Pokémon category. For example, Lugia is 3 stars, but Ho-oh 4 stars. Zygarde 50% form is 1 star only. Mega mewtwo-Y is also 3 stars.

 

[Sunredo]

The opposite concept to the first one; starts relatively to very underpowered, but through either skilled play or gathering resources, becomes much more powerful. (This is actually how I envision Arle playing, though she's relative and not very.)

My idea for a Shin Megami Tensei character is kinda like that, the characters I specifically have in mind being Flynn or Nanashi (For my example I'll be using Flynn). Their gameplay would focus on a mechanic called "Demon Whisper" where after leveling up a demon to a specific level you can learn their moves.

Flynn's neutral special would be selecting one of three demons or none at all (Think Shulks monado wheel). When Flynn selects a demon, all of his directional specials will have that demon use one of their moves. Their moves start poor but as you rack up damage they will level up and their moves will become a more powerful version of that move. Moves would use either MP or health, demons would also have a cooldown after switching. Upon reaching max level (Like, level 4 or something) they will let you copy their moves onto demonless Flynn. This would be done by holding the special button and the direction on the analog stick of the move you want for a couple seconds.

Doing this with all three demons would let Flynn be able to customize his own moveset with whatever he wants, giving him a highly adaptable playstyle, but it would take awhile before he gets all three demons maxed out. To get the most out of him you would have to refrain from taking stocks too soon so you can rack up the most experience you can get. It's very risk:reward character that would require the player to think about what specific moves they need for the matchup.

 

[Wademan94]

I remember there being a feel memes made right after the November direct, the part were they showed off Spirit rankings and Whispy Woods had a higher ranking than Infinite.

I feel like the ranks are more a sign of status rather than actual power level.

 

[Cosmic77]

Novice Spirit I want in Smash? This is sort of cheating, but it would give us another Zelda character.

Spoiler

I really want a Zora in Smash. Ruto, Mipha, Sidon — any of them would do. I think it's time we start repping other species in the Zelda universe outside Hylians and technically the Gerudo.