Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Knight Dude]

I think taking into consideration other fighting games having cameo characters eventually becoming playable(Kolin in SFV, Black Manta in Injustice 2, Martian Manhunter in Injustice 1,Tron Bonne in MVC3) Smash might not have to be different in that regard. I generally doubt it'll happen, just because the pool of potential characters in games as a whole is much wider than something like Street Fighter or even DC, which is saying a lot I think.

 

[Firox]

1. And? Your entire basis for promotions lies solely on a hypothetical scenario. While I admittedly have gone about it in a super roundabout way, I actually have shown some evidence that leads me to believe that promotions won’t happen in the past.

I have yet to see anything to convince me for the pro Spirit side. Maybe the Famitsu column next week will be an indicator.

2. I have said this in the past, but Nintendo and Sakurai made the conscious decision to choose Banjo over Halo or Minecraft. The demand for Banjo was enough to get him in over them. Meanwhile, FF and DQ got prioritized over Geno, and when they had the rights to him in the base game (before DQ), they made him a Spirit.

1) You again completely dismissed the reasoning I provided in favor of the pro Spirit side. The vast majority of them were determined BEFORE FP2 was decided and recent developments show that pre-existing spirits can be modified to account for new ones (ie new fighters and/or franchises), hence Spirits are not a static variable in the equation that is newcomers. Meanwhile, you have zero evidence to prove that spirits can't be promoted besides simply citing the precedent that it hasn't been done before. That's like saying Banjo would never happen until he does.

2) Speaking of which, you're comparing apples to oranges between Microsoft and SE. Granted, fan demand put Banjo in over Halo and Minecraft, however, Microsoft is apparently far more lax with their IP's than SE is. Proof of this is the fact that Cloud literally holds the record for least amount of content than any other character or franchise in the game. SE is extremely protective and diva about their franchises, thus it isn't beyond simple logic to conclude that they would have stricter conditions for letting Geno into the game before their flagships. Now then, it's obvious with the inclusion of Geno's spirit that he was NOT planned for base game (or even the first wave of DLC) however, to argue that the same fan demand that could yield Banjo is completely powerless to help Geno only demonstrates a conscious rejection of all the facts. Again, you have zero evidence to prove that Geno's chances for FP2 are 0% based solely on outdated variables. I'll admit, they aren't super high, but certainly not zero.

PS. You also completely proved the point of my post in the first place, that is, you totally handwave all reasoning but your own without offering even the slightest acknowledgement or consideration of your counterpoints.

 

[TwiceEXE]

I think taking into consideration other fighting games having cameo characters eventually becoming playable(Kolin in SFV, Black Manta in Injustice 2, Martian Manhunter in Injustice 1,Tron Bonne in MVC3) Smash might not have to be different in that regard. I generally doubt it'll happen, just because the pool of potential characters in games as a whole is much wider than something like Street Fighter or even DC, which is saying a lot I think.

And we have the history of Smash to look at. Things CAN change, but it is more likely that they remain the same. Smash isn't created by a random number generator, it is created by a series of people with a design philosophy in mind.

I'm not concerned with the possible (because nearly anything is possible) I am only concerned with the probable.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Nintendo did say that they were surprised at the overwhelming reception to Banjo's reveal. This may have influenced their decision making in the next pass. Just something to think about.

 

[N3ON]

Nintendo did say that they were surprised at the overwhelming reception to Banjo's reveal. This may have influenced their decision making in the next pass. Just something to think about.

Nintendo’s responses make me think they don’t pay as close attention as we think they do. They tend to get surprised by things that would be obvious to anyone with their finger on the pulse of the community, like Banjo’s reception or the fact that K. Rool did in fact have popularity.

But then again they make “too big” and “too many sword-fighter” jokes, so idek anymore.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Nintendo did say that they were surprised at the overwhelming reception to Banjo's reveal. This may have influenced their decision making in the next pass. Just something to think about.

This could just be Nintendo of America though and as far as I know, they don't have control over the Fighters Pass.

 

[Garteam]

Nintendo did say that they were surprised at the overwhelming reception to Banjo's reveal. This may have influenced their decision making in the next pass. Just something to think about.

Interesting. I'd say this bodes extremely well for any character that did well on the ballot, like Geno or Bandana Waddle Dee. If this was around the time Fighter's Pass 2 was being negotiated, I'd be pretty surprised if we don't get at least one character to capitalize on this momentum.

 

[blackghost]

Despite being a big Final Fantasy VII fan I don't know how I would feel about Sephiroth. Over the years he has become more and more associated with his relatively simplistic and normal nodachi wielder self, when in the original game most of the times you interacted with him he came across as bizarre, unsettling and otherworldly. If they are just gonna make him long katana man with sword beams then I can't get very excited for him honestly, but maybe Sakurai would go the extra mile to incorporate all that good Jenova stuff in his moveset.

Sakurai is not afraid to go old school with a character.if he brought in sephiroth i'd expect most of it to be from the game with a few from the advent children movie. but outside of arguably banjo these characters have never really felt short changed. no reaso to think he'd start now

 

[Cosmic77]

As much as I'd like to get my hopes up that Banjo is indicative of more ballot characters, I think he may have been a special case because of Microsoft's willingness to cooperate with Nintendo.

I still expect most of the choices to be fueled by something bigger, like a desire to get more support from a third-party company or promote a new game.

 

[Opossum]

I really wouldn't try to use that Banjo statement as an indicator for the choices in Pass 2. It's more likely that the Pass 2 choices were decided quite a bit before last E3.

 

[nessdeltarune00]

Interesting. I'd say this bodes extremely well for any character that did well on the ballot, like Geno or Bandana Waddle Dee. If this was around the time Fighter's Pass 2 was being negotiated, I'd be pretty surprised if we don't get at least one character to capitalize on this momentum.

They didn’t.

Ironically enough, Genos support tanked during the ballot era (which got revived after the Mii Costume) and Bandana Dee only became very popular during Ultimate speculation.

 

[PeridotGX]

They didn’t.

Ironically enough, Genos support tanked during the ballot era (which got revived after the Mii Costume) and Bandana Dee only became very popular during Ultimate speculation.

Bandana Dee was decently popular during the ballot. I'd say he's going through a popularity recession, I don't see many people talking about him anymore.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Bandana Dee was decently popular during the ballot. I'd say he's going through a popularity recession, I don't see many people talking about him anymore.

It's probably more of a Twitter thing now, since it took over Smash discussion.

 

[DaybreakHorizon]

Bandana Dee was decently popular during the ballot. I'd say he's going through a popularity recession, I don't see many people talking about him anymore.

Because Bandana Dee hard dropped off as a popular character after the base game released.

Especially after we got Joker.

 

[Cosmic77]

Bandana Dee was decently popular during the ballot. I'd say he's going through a popularity recession, I don't see many people talking about him anymore.

It's probably because of third-parties. Not many people discussed first-parties after Joker and Verge's comments related to a SE character. Hero and Banjo almost killed it entirely. I think he'd get more requests if people saw another Nintendo character get in.

Not that requests matter at this point, but still.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Banjo almost killed it entirely

The irony, when he's a third-party whose fans wish he wasn't.

 

[Opossum]

Back in Smash 4 I and a few others saw Dee as a dark horse candidate. Not too likely, but someone to keep an eye out for. Same way I saw Chibi Robo, rest his soul. Around the ballot was when Dee support was at its biggest, I feel, or maybe a bit post-ballot. And then it started up again once the Smash Ball appeared in the Inkling's eye.

Then there was some pushback, like Gamexplain's video, and Hat Goomba got coined. Then when we found out there were gonna be fewer additions even fewer people stuck with Dee. Then his support just kinda kept slowing down until people saw he didn't even have a spirit battle (since he evolves from a regular Waddle Dee). Then the first pass was mostly third parties. And now we're here.

Basically Dee's seen a pretty steady decline, at least around here. Apparently the Bandana Brigade is still around on Twitter, I guess? ...Because man do I remember a few people spamming Three Houses prerelease tweets with Bandana Dee stuff. That wasn't great.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I do not plan on getting into another Spirit debate, because nobody ever budges and it’s a waste of everybody’s time.

However, the majority of the points that “no upgrades” folks make are based on precedent, which is absolutely valid. Certainly, I am not a member of the development team. Nobody here is. But I believe that seeing what “historically” has happened is relevant to the discussion.

There’s a famous saying I’ll put here because I think it’s important in many different scenarios.

“Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.”

If you do not acknowledge that past DLC precedent does not support certain outcomes, such as upgrades, it is wise to consider that as relevant at this point. Nothing is impossible, and I think treating anything as such is foolish. But I would personally be more open to the discourse if folks actually took that into consideration rather than immediately shutting it down by just saying, “Well we don’t know what their outlook is!”

I frankly don’t even give a **** if they upgrade somebody. I would just say that if you want folks to be more interested in the opposing view, do the same and entertain the possibilities that you don’t like. I myself have done that in the past.

Frankly my lack of investment in the spirit debate lately is because it comes down to precedent vs. hypotheticals. It’s “This has happened” vs. “this COULD happen”. One is based on evidence of what HAS happened, while the other is hypothetical. Hypotheticals cannot really be argued against, because they’re not always based in something factual, but more of an ideal, so it just turns into an argument where neither side actually comes to a conclusion. That sucks, and it continues to suck.

 

[Izanagi97]

I get the feeling that being a smash insider (or leaker or claiming to be any of those) must suck like hell because besides the usual risks associated with that stuff, you also have to deal with the fact that the moment you get one thing wrong (which can be caused by a lot of different things, some that are out of your control), well, we've seen the results of when that happens.

 

[PeridotGX]

It's probably because of third-parties. Not many people discussed first-parties after Joker and Verge's comments related to a SE character. Hero and Banjo almost killed it entirely. I think he'd get more requests if people saw another Nintendo character get in.

Not that requests matter at this point, but still.

Pretty much my thoughts exactly. Joker and Banjo opened the doors to practically every third party, which harmed nearly every first party. Why would you support Bandana Dee when someone like Doomguy or Dante is on the table? It's unfortunate, but I can't see Bandana Dee (or any other first party) ever becoming a top request again.

 

[ChunkySlugger72]

The irony, when he's a third-party whose fans wish he wasn't.

That's what makes Banjo-Kazooie inclusion into Super Smash Bros feel so right and natural, It feels more like a 1st/2nd Party Nintendo character inclusion.

Most 3rd Party's have more of a "Invading" the Smash universe vibe while Banjo-Kazooie's felt more like "Returning or We're Back !!!" take and it shows with fellow Rare characters DK, Diddy Kong and King K. Rool happy to see their old buddies back and the majority of the Nintendo cast welcoming them back, You can even hear the Smash crowd cheering in the background the moment this frame pops up in the trailer.

Nearly 20 years in the making and changes of ownership and legal issues couldn't stop this historic moment from happening.

And for me personally it doesn't get much better than this...

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

One other thing, I find it ironic that folks who want brand new series in Smash need “justification” for it, while evidently fans of characters from series already in don’t? What even...?

If you want something in Smash, that’s your opinion. Good for you! I want Dante and 2B because I played their games and think they’re very unique compared to the rest of the field of options. Why do I need to justify that I would want them besides that???

I can understand justifications if you’re going for, like, “Dante and 2B are likely to be added to Smash because of these reasons...”. That’s reasonable. I get that. But I don’t really get the idea that somebody has to justify to other fans why they want certain things. That’s nuts. Geno fans want Geno because they like the character. Midna fans want Midna because they like Midna. Who cares?

As long as it’s not saying the character is “likely” without reasoning, I don’t see why that’s even an argument.

To wrap this post up, I want new series in Smash because we already have many different things from many different series, and I think there’s a freshness that a new series like Devil May Cry or NieR can bring. The music, the stages, the characters...all totally new, and as a fan of both games, they’d be more interesting than something I’ve already seen before. This is an opinion.

Somebody else is free to have an opposing opinion. I would very much disagree with them. But they don’t need to really justify it unless it’s something far bigger in scope, like social justice or something that actually matters.

I’m sorry, I’m done ranting. It’s been a long day.

 

[CHAMPIONX9]

Then there is a question of who exactly would be upgraded.

or any other first party)

I mean, I'd be down for Impa or Xeno characters, and Waluigi and Skullkid would make waves. I think first parties can still make a resurgence if fans are given hope.

King K. Rool happy to see their old buddies back

*King Rool proceeds to get bodied by Banjo*
:` (

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

One other thing, I find it ironic that folks who want brand new series in Smash need “justification” for it, while evidently fans of characters from series already in don’t? What even...?

If you want something in Smash, that’s your opinion. Good for you! I want Dante and 2B because I played their games and think they’re very unique compared to the rest of the field of options. Why do I need to justify that I would want them besides that???

I can understand justifications if you’re going for, like, “Dante and 2B are likely to be added to Smash because of these reasons...”. That’s reasonable. I get that. But I don’t really get the idea that somebody has to justify to other fans why they want certain things. That’s nuts. Geno fans want Geno because they like the character. Midna fans want Midna because they like Midna. Who cares?

As long as it’s not saying the character is “likely” without reasoning, I don’t see why that’s even an argument.

To wrap this post up, I want new series in Smash because we already have many different things from many different series, and I think there’s a freshness that a new series like Devil May Cry or NieR can bring. The music, the stages, the characters...all totally new, and as a fan of both games, they’d be more interesting than something I’ve already seen before. This is an opinion.

Somebody else is free to have an opposing opinion. I would very much disagree with them. But they don’t need to really justify it unless it’s something far bigger in scope, like social justice or something that actually matters.

I’m sorry, I’m done ranting. It’s been a long day.

Likewise for me.

 

[Cosmic77]

Pretty much my thoughts exactly. Joker and Banjo opened the doors to practically every third party, which harmed nearly every first party. Why would you support Bandana Dee when someone like Doomguy or Dante is on the table? It's unfortunate, but I can't see Bandana Dee (or any other first party) ever becoming a top request again.

Well, I wouldn't go as far as to say no first-party character will ever be popular.

People tend to support what they think is likely, so if we get more third-parties, that'll be what we'll primarily see in discussions. If we get more first-parties, expect more debates on first-parties.

 

[CroonerMike]

>Shantae
>Iconic

How come her supporters keep spreading this around?

same with 2b lol

 

[Cutie Gwen]

same with 2b lol

Why are we still doing this when 2B fans managed to be vocal as hell about wanting her in Soul Calibur 6 even when she was officially being put in the game before the public knew

 

[MooMew64]

Why are we still doing this when 2B fans managed to be vocal as hell about wanting her in Soul Calibur 6 even when she was officially being put in the game before the public knew

Because if I don't know the character, nobody does. The world revolves around my interests, after all.

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

So, sorry to switch the tracks, but the new Super Smash Flash 2 update came out today!

 

[CroonerMike]

Why are we still doing this when 2B fans managed to be vocal as hell about wanting her in Soul Calibur 6 even when she was officially being put in the game before the public knew

Why are we still acting like others choices don’t have a chance or are bad ideas? It goes both ways. EXCEPT if you’re not in the opinion here then you’re trash apparently.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Why are we still acting like others choices don’t have a chance or are bad ideas? It goes both ways. EXCEPT if you’re not in the opinion here then you’re trash apparently.

This isn't even about who has 'a chance' or not, all I'm saying is 2B is indeed iconic, I never even put my opinion out on her in Smash, let alone her chances on getting in

 

[MooMew64]

Why are we still acting like others choices don’t have a chance or are bad ideas? It goes both ways. EXCEPT if you’re not in the opinion here then you’re trash apparently.

Literally no one is saying that. In fact, most here are saying that people can like who they like and leave it at that because, y'know, this is just a discussion about who gets to be in Funny Punch Kick Wahoo Bros. Game next.

 

[Garteam]

They didn’t.

Ironically enough, Genos support tanked during the ballot era (which got revived after the Mii Costume) and Bandana Dee only became very popular during Ultimate speculation.

I will admit that Geno wasn't very popular during the ballot era, but Bandana Dee? Little dude did quite well for himself, especially in Japan.

 

[CroonerMike]

Because if I don't know the character, nobody does. The world revolves around my interests, after all.

Except I didn’t say that idiot. Sorry you guys jerk off over the characters you like. All I’m saying is just cause they are iconic doesn’t mean jack ****.

Get off your high horse and stop trying to act like you guys know everything.

 

[cosmicB]

However, the majority of the points that “no upgrades” folks make are based on precedent, which is absolutely valid. Certainly, I am not a member of the development team. Nobody here is. But I believe that seeing what “historically” has happened is relevant to the discussion.

There’s a famous saying I’ll put here because I think it’s important in many different scenarios.

“Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.”

If you do not acknowledge that past DLC precedent does not support certain outcomes, such as upgrades, it is wise to consider that as relevant at this point. Nothing is impossible, and I think treating anything as such is foolish. But I would personally be more open to the discourse if folks actually took that into consideration rather than immediately shutting it down by just saying, “Well we don’t know what their outlook is!”

This is basically how I see it. Our speculation is formed by things that have already happened alongside what's already been outright said.

Season 1 DLC didn't contradict anything we knew, but it did break one precedent that people latched onto; only 3rd party. The thing is this was never a rule and even if we go back to Reggie's "new worlds" statement, Byleth applies as Fodlan is a new world to Smash and none of the content Byleth brought had been in the game before (with the exception of a second of the main Fire Emblem theme in one of the 3H tracks).

Right now, the hope of upgrades hinges 100% on whether season 2 will follow the same formula or not. "All new worlds" are not happening if Geno or Waluigi are added to the roster. People are basically holding their breathes for a precedent-breaking event, something that may or may not happen when we've been given no indication that it will.

 

[Wunderwaft]

They didn’t.

Ironically enough, Genos support tanked during the ballot era (which got revived after the Mii Costume) and Bandana Dee only became very popular during Ultimate speculation.

Wasn't Geno's mii costume made precisely BECAUSE he was a popular request?
The ballot definitely played a role for that to happen.

 

[Dinoman96]

Hat Goomba actually had the most discussion of any Smash 4 candidate outside of the two lizard kings. I'll just post this again

 

[Hadokeyblade]

That's what makes Banjo-Kazooie inclusion into Super Smash Bros feel so natural and right, It feels more like a 1st/2nd Party Nintendo character inclusion.

Most 3rd Party's have more of a "Invading" Smash vibe while Banjo-Kazooie's felt more like "Returning or We're Back !!!" take and it shows with fellow Rare characters DK, Diddy Kong and King K. Rool happy to see their old buddies back and the majority of the Nintendo cast welcoming them back, You can even hear the Smash crowd cheering in the background the moment this frame pops up in the trailer.

Nearly 20 years in the making and changes of ownership and legal issues couldn't stop this historic moment.

And for me personally it doesn't get that much better than this...

View attachment 262330

It probably sounds corny as hell but I kinda teared up when Banjo was revealed, they really NAILED that feeling of a tearful reunion with an old friend you thought you'd never see again with his family

 

[Deleted member]

Then there was some pushback, like Gamexplain's video, and Hat Goomba got coined.

Man how could Gamexplain diss my girl Goombella like that

 

[MooMew64]

I feel people would be more open to other characters if they at least learned just a little bit about them before dumping on them for not being exclusively what they wanted.

Some Smash fans are really against trying new things...