Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Cutie Gwen]

Man how could Gamexplain diss my girl Goombella like that

I like GameXplain but at the same time I haven't forgiven them for their godawful Wonderful 101 review which complained about no camera controls and the L and R buttons not doing anything, when the L and R buttons were the camera control

 

[Wunderwaft]

This is basically how I see it. Our speculation is formed by things that have already happened alongside what's already been outright said.

Season 1 DLC didn't contradict anything we knew, but it did break one precedent that people latched onto; only 3rd party. The thing is this was never a rule and even if we go back to Reggie's "new worlds" statement, Byleth applies as Fodlan is a new world to Smash and none of the content Byleth brought had been in the game before (with the exception of a second of the main Fire Emblem theme in one of the 3H tracks).

Right now, the hope of upgrades hinges 100% on whether season 2 will follow the same formula or not. "All new worlds" are not happening if Geno or Waluigi are added to the roster. People are basically holding their breathes for a precedent-breaking event, something that may or may not happen when we've been given no indication that it will.

I feel like you're disregarding a lot of fan rules that people made up during Season 1 speculation. Remember when people thought no Western owned characters would happen at all just because it never happened before? Remember how people thought guns were still an issue and disregarded Bayonetta's guns as just "magical guns"? These two topics were definitely talked about a lot before Joker and Banjo got revealed respectively.

And if we're gonna excuse Byleth's exclusion that it didn't break the "All new worlds" statement because Fodlan isn't in the game even though he is another Fire Emblem character, then you could say the same for Waluigi on the pretense that there isn't a Mario Party world represented in Smash so he could bring that in with a fighter pack. Actually why are we even regarding Reggie's statement as anything more than just a vague PR statement that meant nothing in the end? Reggie made that statement on the spot at the game awards to hype up the fighters pass.

Anyways, yeah, precedence can be used to back up your thoughts on something, but it shouldn't be used as objective evidence when it comes to speculation. Because let's be honest, every Smash game has broken some form of precedence that people relied on at one point.

 

[TwiceEXE]

I feel people would be more open to other characters if they at least learned just a little bit about them before dumping on them for not being exclusively what they wanted.

Some Smash fans are really against trying new things...

I feel like that kind of sentiment is prevelant among people who are solely/primarily Nintendo fans. I would hypothesize it's due to the lack of 3rd part support during many Nintendo console's lifespans.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I feel like you're disregarding a lot of fan rules that people made up during Season 1 speculation. Remember when people thought no Western owned characters would happen at all just because it never happened before? Remember how people thought guns were still an issue and disregarded Bayonetta's guns as just "magical guns"? These two topics were definitely talked about a lot before Joker and Banjo got revealed respectively.

And if we're gonna excuse Byleth's exclusion that it didn't break the "All new worlds" statement because Fodlan isn't in the game even though he is another Fire Emblem character, then you could say the same for Waluigi on the pretense that there isn't a Mario Party world represented in Smash so he could bring that in with a fighter pack. Actually why are we even regarding Reggie's statement as anything more than just a vague PR statement that meant nothing in the end? Reggie made that statement on the spot at the game awards to hype up the fighters pass.

Anyways, yeah, precedence can be used to back up your thoughts on something, but it shouldn't be used as objective evidence when it comes to speculation. Because let's be honest, ever Smash game has broken some form of precedence that people relied on at one point.

Oddly enough people still pretend real guns aren't allowed and Joker was fine because of P5 lore despite that never being mentioned in Smash

 

[N3ON]

Besides its innate subjectivity, if we can't reach a consensus on whether a character is iconic, but they still have a fair chance of getting in anyway, the term really doesn't matter anymore. It's Smash Bros; initially it might start as a hall of fame, but eventually they just let in whoever seems to be popular or prevalent. We already did this song and dance with the first-parties.

Even among the normal pointless discussions that cycle through conversations, the icon debate stands alone in its inconsequentiality.

 

[ChunkySlugger72]

Then there is a question of who exactly would be upgraded.

I mean, I'd be down for Impa or Xeno characters, and Waluigi and Skullkid would make waves. I think first parties can still make a resurgence if fans are given hope.


*King Rool proceeds to get bodied by Banjo*
:` (

King K. Rool was my 2nd most wanted after Banjo-Kazooie so while it was great to see him added in the 2nd trailer, I did feel kind of bad in a funny kind of way when he got "Grunty'd" by the Jinjonator.

It probably sounds corny as hell but I kinda teared up when Banjo was revealed, they really NAILED that feeling of a tearful reunion with an old friend you thought you'd never see again with his family

Nah... sounds normal to me, I was mostly hyped about 80% of the time while pounding my chest and screaming with pride, But I definitely wiped a tear or 2 at the end.

It's like the trailer was made for hardcore Nintendo/Rare fans in mind that love both Donkey Kong and Banjo-Kazooie.

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

This is basically how I see it. Our speculation is formed by things that have already happened alongside what's already been outright said.

Season 1 DLC didn't contradict anything we knew, but it did break one precedent that people latched onto; only 3rd party. The thing is this was never a rule and even if we go back to Reggie's "new worlds" statement, Byleth applies as Fodlan is a new world to Smash and none of the content Byleth brought had been in the game before (with the exception of a second of the main Fire Emblem theme in one of the 3H tracks).

Right now, the hope of upgrades hinges 100% on whether season 2 will follow the same formula or not. "All new worlds" are not happening if Geno or Waluigi are added to the roster. People are basically holding their breathes for a precedent-breaking event, something that may or may not happen when we've been given no indication that it will.

I approve of what has been said. If Geno or Waluigi (overrated characters that have no relevance in the series what so ever in my opinion) are added, no new worlds will be added. Sorry for bringing up my opinion again, but this is why I want Zero (the Mega Man Zero series version) in Smash. He'll bring a new world with him (Earth after the Elf Wars) and some content never seen before (Zero's techniques across the Mega Man X and Zero series, the Shield Boomerang, the Zero Knuckle, Elemental Chips, etc.).

 

[MooMew64]

I feel like that kind of sentiment is prevelant among people who are solely/primarily Nintendo fans. I would hypothesize it's due to the lack of 3rd part support during many Nintendo console's lifespans.

Like, I'm as hardcore a Nintendo fan as they come and a good 60% of what I play is their stuff, but I play lots of other games too and am aware of other companies, games, and properties. I always get surprised by how little some hardcore Smash fans seem to know about gaming outside of Nintendo systems, and again, this is coming from someone who spends a good chunk of their gaming free time with Nintendo.

I'm not saying everyone has to like every character idea, but maybe some could be a little more chill and respectful about voicing it, y'know? Again, at least be aware of what it is before you judge it.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Oddly enough people still pretend real guns aren't allowed and Joker was fine because of P5 lore despite that never being mentioned in Smash

Funnily enough Joker's gun in Smash is even more realistic than his gun in P5 because it included a lanyard loop. That thing was missing in the original game.

 

[KillerCage]

One thing that Ridley, K. Rool, Banjo, and Geno all have in common is that they haven't done much in recent years outside Smash. A large amount of fan support was basically the only thing keeping them alive. So far, Sakurai has added all but Geno, which makes me consider his absence on the roster but presence as a Spirit to be a very telling sign. I'd probably be saying the same thing about Ridley if K. Rool, Banjo, and Geno all got in without him and he returned as a boss on Pyrosphere.

I took issue with grouping Ridley with King K. Rool, Banjo & Kazooie, and Geno who had the recency problem that didn't apply to Ridley, but others on this thread have already addressed my issues so I'm not press this.

Season 1 DLC didn't contradict anything we knew, but it did break one precedent that people latched onto; only 3rd party. The thing is this was never a rule and even if we go back to Reggie's "new worlds" statement, Byleth applies as Fodlan is a new world to Smash and none of the content Byleth brought had been in the game before (with the exception of a second of the main Fire Emblem theme in one of the 3H tracks).

THIS. Since Fire Emblem games typically take place in different universes, Reggie's "new worlds" statement remained true throughout Fighters' Pass 1.
In my mind if we were to get another character from a franchise that is already in Smash as part of Fighters' Pass 2, it would have to be from a series that constantly creates new worlds. The only series in Smash that do this are Fire Emblem, Xenoblade, Final Fantasy, and Dragon Quest. Everything else either doesn't have continuity, takes over generations of stories (such as Zelda, Metal Gear, Megaman, and Castlevania,) has loose continuity (such as Mario, Kirby, Pokemon, and Sonic,) or has a linear timeline (such as Metroid, Kid Icarus, and Bayonetta.)

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I feel like you're disregarding a lot of fan rules that people made up during Season 1 speculation. Remember when people thought no Western owned characters would happen at all just because it never happened before? Remember how people thought guns were still an issue and disregarded Bayonetta's guns as just "magical guns"? These two topics were definitely talked about a lot before Joker and Banjo got revealed respectively.

And if we're gonna excuse Byleth's exclusion that it didn't break the "All new worlds" statement because Fodlan isn't in the game even though he is another Fire Emblem character, then you could say the same for Waluigi on the pretense that there isn't a Mario Party world represented in Smash so he could bring that in with a fighter pack. Actually why are we even regarding Reggie's statement as anything more than just a vague PR statement that meant nothing in the end? Reggie made that statement on the spot at the game awards to hype up the fighters pass.

Anyways, yeah, precedence can be used to back up your thoughts on something, but it shouldn't be used as objective evidence when it comes to speculation. Because let's be honest, every Smash game has broken some form of precedence that people relied on at one point.

I don't know that Mario Party is the equivalent of a new Fire Emblem game, mainly because Mario Party isn't a game that represents a different storyline, with different protagonists, or different stories. It's a Mario spinoff game, just like every other Mario spin-off game.

I myself always said that Astral Chain or Three Houses would be an exception if the pass wasn't all 3rd parties, mainly because Corrin was a similar add in Wii U. In addition, it's a title in a game with a new cast, new music, new stage, etc... But more than that, it simply fits the "shill" protagonist pick that we got the first time. Many Nintendo characters that are currently asked for do not fit that trend.

Now, it's not an impossibility, and it's a precedent that can be broken. But will it be broken? I'm not so sure it will when there are plenty of picks that could continue the trend of the crossover without digging into upgrades. I can't say I would be entirely disappointed, though there are picks I would be much more excited for.

I'd say that yes: Precedence works as objective evidence because it's something that has actually happened. It doesn't mean that it rules things out going forward, but it's a valid bit to base further speculation on.

It's something far more concrete to base speculation on than a statement such as, "Well what if they change their minds?" Asking the question of, "What if I get struck by lightning?" is equally as hypothetical in this case, and unless I produce more evidence that I will be struck by lightning, it doesn't amount to much.

At least, that's my perspective but...I'm an English teacher. That's just how I view that.

EDIT: The gun argument was definitely silly though, I totally agree on that.

 

[The Rhythm Theif]

In my mind if we were to get another character from a franchise that is already in Smash as part of Fighters' Pass 2, it would have to be from a series that constantly creates new worlds. The only series in Smash that do this are Fire Emblem, Xenoblade, Final Fantasy, and Dragon Quest. Everything else either doesn't have continuity, takes over generations of stories (such as Zelda, Metal Gear, Megaman, and Castlevania,) has loose continuity (such as Mario, Kirby, Pokemon, and Sonic,) or has a linear timeline (such as Metroid, Kid Icarus, and Bayonetta.)

I don't know... I think the Mega Man franchise makes new worlds. In the OG Mega Man series, we get to see a current-gen city, but with robots. In Mega Man X, we get to see a futuristic utopia. In the Mega Man Zero series, we get to see an apoctolyptic, dystopian like setting, basically an opposite version of the X series. In Battle Network, we get to see the same setting in OG Mega Man, but with a world connected to the internet. In Star Force we get a spirit that manifests the protagonist and turns him into Star Force Mega Man. In Legends we get to see the island "Elysium" (mentioned by X in X5) built. In ZX we get the same setting as the Zero series.

 

[TwiceEXE]

Anyways, yeah, precedence can be used to back up your thoughts on something, but it shouldn't be used as objective evidence when it comes to speculation. Because let's be honest, every Smash game has broken some form of precedence that people relied on at one point.

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with this point. It frames the situation in a way that makes it sound like precedence is a 50/50; either it remains true or it doesn't. But this approach throws the baby out with the bathwater. The truth is, some precedents HAVE been broken but many more remain in place to this day. It's much more likely than not that things remain the same instead of changing. I think it is better to approach previous evidence as "right until proven wrong" instead of "wrong until proven right".

 

[P.Kat]

I approve of what has been said. If Geno or Waluigi (overrated characters that have no relevance in the series what so ever in my opinion) are added, no new worlds will be added. Sorry for bringing up my opinion again, but this is why I want Zero (the Mega Man Zero series version) in Smash. He'll bring a new world with him (Earth after the Elf Wars) and some content never seen before (Zero's techniques across the Mega Man X and Zero series, the Shield Boomerang, the Zero Knuckle, Elemental Chips, etc.).

I like MMZ as much as the next person, but it's not right to step on people's most wanted characters just because they come from an already established world, and this is coming from someone who really wants the Okami World to appear in Smash.

 

[shinhed-echi]

I approve of what has been said. If Geno or Waluigi (overrated characters that have no relevance in the series what so ever in my opinion) are added, no new worlds will be added. Sorry for bringing up my opinion again, but this is why I want Zero (the Mega Man Zero series version) in Smash. He'll bring a new world with him (Earth after the Elf Wars) and some content never seen before (Zero's techniques across the Mega Man X and Zero series, the Shield Boomerang, the Zero Knuckle, Elemental Chips, etc.).

Wanting MMZ Zero reminds me of when I wanted Snes Little Mac after NES Mac became an AT.

Stil, would love to see him in. Not only because I played his games and loved them, but so I can play as a team of Zero and Hero.

Oh and Megaman & Zero as well.

 

[Wunderwaft]

I don't know that Mario Party is the equivalent of a new Fire Emblem game, mainly because Mario Party isn't a game that represents a different storyline, with different protagonists, or different stories. It's a Mario spinoff game, just like every other Mario spin-off game.

I myself always said that Astral Chain or Three Houses would be an exception if the pass wasn't all 3rd parties, mainly because Corrin was a similar add in Wii U. In addition, it's a title in a game with a new cast, new music, new stage, etc... But more than that, it simply fits the "shill" protagonist pick that we got the first time. Many Nintendo characters that are currently asked for do not fit that trend.

Now, it's not an impossibility, and it's a precedent that can be broken. But will it be broken? I'm not so sure it will when there are plenty of picks that could continue the trend of the crossover without digging into upgrades. I can't say I would be entirely disappointed, though there are picks I would be much more excited for.

I'd say that yes: Precedence works as objective evidence because it's something that has actually happened. It doesn't mean that it rules things out going forward, but it's a valid bit to base further speculation on.

It's something far more concrete to base speculation on than a statement such as, "Well what if they change their minds?" Asking the question of, "What if I get struck by lightning?" is equally as hypothetical in this case, and unless I produce more evidence that I will be struck by lightning, it doesn't amount to much.

At least, that's my perspective but...I'm an English teacher. That's just how I view that.

EDIT: The gun argument was definitely silly though, I totally agree on that.

My point was more so that Reggie's statement is so vague that it can apply to different meanings. There isn't a Mario Party stage in the game so as a result it could be a "new world". I got skeptical over the statement since it just seemed like a PR statement he made to get people excited for the fighters pass. Like if the goal was to introduce never before seen worlds into Smash then they most certainly could have picked a much stronger character than Byleth, since Fire Emblem is already well represented in Smash.

Reggie has also said that they never got a Smash character rejected ever before and that is flat out wrong because Sakurai contradicted what he said and said Snake was refused by Konami back in Smash 4. So it's clear Reggie isn't always telling the truth and it's hard to take his statements as anything more than PR statements.

I get what you mean about your argument with precedence, but I just don't see it exactly as strong evidence for why a character can't happen. Sakurai has never explicitly said spirits are complete deconfirmations and these characters won't become playable for the rest of Ultimate's lifespan. This is much different from when he said non video game characters are completely not happening whatsoever. I won't go deep into the precedence argument because I feel like we're gonna go back and forth in a circle and neither of us will change their opinion lol.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

My point was more so that Reggie's statement is so vague that it can apply to different meanings. There isn't a Mario Party stage in the game so as a result it could be a "new world". I got skeptical over the statement since it just seemed like a PR statement he made to get people excited for the fighters pass. Like if the goal was to introduce never before seen worlds into Smash then they most certainly could have picked a much stronger character than Byleth, since Fire Emblem is already well represented in Smash.

Reggie has also said that they never got a Smash character rejected ever before and that is flat out wrong because Sakurai contradicted what he said and said Snake was refused by Konami back in Smash 4. So it's clear Reggie isn't always telling the truth and it's hard to take his statements as anything more than PR statements.

I get what you mean about your argument with precedence, but I just don't see it exactly as strong evidence for why a character can't happen. Sakurai has never explicitly said spirits are complete deconfirmations and these characters won't become playable for the rest of Ultimate's lifespan. This is much different from when he said non video game characters are completely not happening whatsoever. I won't go deep into the precedence argument because I feel like we're gonna go back and forth in a circle and neither of us will change their opinion lol.

I see where you're coming from here. Though, my only real disagreement here would be that I don't necessarily know that Sakurai has to outright say everything for them to be valid. Inferences are key here.

To be fair, I don't think precedence should be used to say a character "can't happen" either, but I think of it as more of a piece of information to say why characters might not happen or be in the cards, if that makes sense.

 

[Wunderwaft]

To be fair, I don't think precedence should be used to say a character "can't happen" either, but I think of it as more of a piece of information to say why characters might not happen or be in the cards, if that makes sense.

We see eye to eye then. I agree that precedence can determine if something is likely or not, and not if something can happen or not.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

We see eye to eye then. I agree that precedence can determine if something is likely or not, and not if something can happen or not.

HOLY **** EVERYONE, LOOK.

TWO PEOPLE WHO COME TO AN AGREEMENT DESPITE THINKING IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

WHAT IS HAPPENING.

This is sarcasm but also why I love Wunderwaft

 

[SneakyLink]

I feel like every video game character that is not hard/soft deconfirmed sits at a 50/50 level.

Because it's a 50/50 on whether Nintendo wanted that character in Smash or not.

 

[Opossum]

I approve of what has been said. If Geno or Waluigi (overrated characters that have no relevance in the series what so ever in my opinion)

Saying Waluigi is "irrelevant" isn't "an opinion," it's a falsehood. You don't get to say blatantly incorrect information and get a free pass by erroneously calling it an opinion.

 

[Firox]

Wasn't Geno's mii costume made precisely BECAUSE he was a popular request?
The ballot definitely played a role for that to happen.

You're absolutely right. Contrary to the completely baseless statement that he wasn't popular during the ballot era, there were actually several fan-created ballots that were generated in an attempt to simulate the results of the official one. Almost every single one I saw (some with voters in the thousands) had Geno in the top ten, if not the top 5, along with Krool, Isaac, Wolf, and Banjo. To say he wasn't even on the radar is just flat out wrong and laughably biased.

Not only did Geno get a mii costume because of this, but it's important to note that Geno's was the only costume then or since to ever get its own splash screen. He's also now the only character from the usual top five not yet in the game....(not counting Isaac's AT, rest his soul)

 

[Cosmic77]

Even if Waluigi doesn't bring a new world with him, we're still getting a character that people clearly wanted in Smash.

He'd be worthwhile in that regard.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

You're absolutely right. Contrary to the completely baseless statement that he wasn't popular during the ballot era, there were actually several fan-created ballots that were generated in an attempt to simulate the results of the official one. Almost every single one I saw (some with voters in the thousands) had Geno in the top ten, if not the top 5, along with Krool, Isaac, Wolf, and Banjo. To say he wasn't even on the radar is just flat out wrong and laughably biased.

Not only did Geno get a mii costume because of this, but it's important to note that Geno's was the only costume then or since to ever get its own splash screen. He's also now the only character from the usual top five not yet in the game....(not counting Isaac's AT, rest his soul)

Smh this is Elijah Wood erasure and you know it

 

[P.Kat]

HOLY **** EVERYONE, LOOK.

TWO PEOPLE WHO COME TO AN AGREEMENT DESPITE THINKING IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

WHAT IS HAPPENING.

This is sarcasm but also why I love Wunderwaft

Egads! Having... An agreement?! Where did you two dig up such an archaic, arcane, and abominable ability from?! No one in this century comes to agreements. Which means, you must be witches!

 

[N3ON]

I like Waluigi but frankly he does have a “presence” more than a “relevance” within his series.

 

[Firox]

Smh this is Elijah Wood erasure and you know it

That denial of yours must be a riot at parties.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Hmmm

It's probably gonna take a while until we get more Smash information. In the meantime I have a game for everyone to play. Pick a character you don't like or care about that much and write a moveset for them. By the time you finished researching and writing the moveset, do you feel like your opinion on the character has changed?

 

[3BitSaurus]

So, sorry to switch the tracks, but the new Super Smash Flash 2 update came out today!

Played it for the first time tonight. It reminded me of the "2nd character from a third party series" debate from earlier, because I gotta say, I loved what they did for Black Mage in that game. Especially how his spot dodge is the "Miss" sign and the battle UI sounds for the jump.

 

[SuperSmashStephen]

I like Waluigi but frankly he does have a “presence” more than a “relevance” within his series.

I have never agreed with something more in my life.

 

[Ura]

So, sorry to switch the tracks, but the new Super Smash Flash 2 update came out today!

I saw the video. Really hyped about it and looking forward to the next 3 reveals at Smash Con this year. McLeodGaming devs are the best.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

That denial of yours must be a riot at parties.

It'd be denial if I were wrong

Unless of course, you want to claim E3 2014 didn't happen

 

[Deleted member]

It'd be denial if I were wrong
[Lincoln Splash Screen]
[Elijah Wood Splash Screen]
[Ice-T Splash Screen]
Unless of course, you want to claim E3 2014 didn't happen

WAIT A MINUTE THERE WAS A HARRY POTTER REP IN SMASH 4 ALL THIS TIME!??!?!

 

[Krankees]

So, sorry to switch the tracks, but the new Super Smash Flash 2 update came out today!

Who do you main? I like maining Sora and Ryu might be another one for me to enjoy playing. Of course there's also...

Spoiler

 

[Llort A. Ton]

My friend let me borrow his bravely default game and im having a good time with it. I really dont want more jrpg characters (3/5 of the last pass were jrpgs, thats a bit overkill) but if we had to have one id be happy to see one of the party members from the game. The soundtrack is a bop for the most part too.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

WAIT A MINUTE THERE WAS A HARRY POTTER REP IN SMASH 4 ALL THIS TIME!??!?!

You think it's a coincidence Smash and Harry Potter are both bad? All part of the crossover baybeeeee

 

[Firox]

It'd be denial if I were wrongView attachment 262368
View attachment 262366View attachment 262367
Unless of course, you want to claim E3 2014 didn't happen

Oh, I thought you were denying the ballot results, not the splash screen thing. By referring to Geno's splash screen, I meant he was the only one to have a specific splash screen amongst all the DLC costumes of Sm4sh. I should have clarified.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Oh, I thought you were denying the ballot results, not the splash screen thing. By referring to Geno's splash screen, I meant he was the only one to have a specific splash screen amongst all the DLC costumes of Sm4sh. I should have clarified.

Considering I named Elijah Wood, I could not have more clearly been joking about the splash screen, considering how quick you were to call denial, are Geno fans currently ok or are they still being a mess?

 

[Deleted member]

You think it's a coincidence Smash and Harry Potter are both bad? All part of the crossover baybeeeee

You mean to say Sakurai is a terf? Mama mia...

 

[Animegamingnerd]

I feel people would be more open to other characters if they at least learned just a little bit about them before dumping on them for not being exclusively what they wanted.

Some Smash fans are really against trying new things...

Ironic, considering how many people got exposed to certain series for the first time because of Smash.