Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

Thoughts on Byleth?

  • YAY

    Votes: 189 30.4%
  • NAY

    Votes: 90 14.5%
  • MEH

    Votes: 98 15.8%
  • 6 MORE CHARACTERS!!

    Votes: 244 39.3%

  • Total voters
    621

ErenJager

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By what definition and in who's eyes?
Some would say 2B is 'well known' and 'well established' considering NieR Automata was very popular and we're still talking about her and her game to this day despite it being 3 years later.
Like I said, its purely subjective based on one's personal views on it.
It's defined in the dictionary as well known and well established.

Mickey Mouse, Coca Cola, Superman are iconic.
2B and Shantae are not iconic.

It's not a relative term. Most people could identify iconic things because they're iconic.
Most people couldn't identify most video game characters.
With exceptions like Mario, Pikachu, and Pac-Man.
Most people outside of the interest circles have no idea who 2B is or Shantae.
Therefore they're not iconic.
 
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for the record, as far as how spirit fights can be represented

if you own the Cuphead costume, the Cuphead and Mugman spirit fights actually do use it instead of Mega Man
and all 4 Cuphead spirits play Floral Fury

so they've finally found a way to have spirits either utilize DLC, or make backup approximates when you do not own the relevant DLC
 

DevaAshera

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It's defined in the dictionary as well known and well established.

Mickey Mouse, Coca Cola, Superman are iconic.
2B and Shantae are not iconic.

It's not a relative term. Most people could identify iconic things because they're iconic.
Most people couldn't identify most video game characters.
With exceptions like Mario, Pikachu, and Pac-Man.
Most people outside of the interest circles have no idea who 2B is or Shantae.
Therefore they're not iconic.
Its a subjective term..sorry, but you're not going to change my mind on this.
What's Iconic to one person isn't iconic to the next and when someone says something is Iconic it also depends on what circles you mean. Do you mean Iconic amongst gamers, Iconic amongst anime, Iconic amongst comic books, iconic amongst movies, iconic amongst pop culture, iconic amongst Americans, iconic amongst the West, Iconic amongst Japanese, Iconic amongst the world (not gonna find many things Iconic to the world..) etc.

Like it or not, it IS a relative term.
 

TwiceEXE

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It's defined in the dictionary as well known and well established.

Mickey Mouse, Coca Cola, Superman are iconic.
2B and Shantae are not iconic.

It's not a relative term. Most people could identify iconic things because they're iconic.
Most people couldn't identify most video game characters.
With exceptions like Mario, Pikachu, and Pac-Man.
Most people outside of the interest circles have no idea who 2B is or Shantae.
Therefore they're not iconic.
You are twisting the definition to try and make it only apply to a general populace. A character can absolutely be iconic within the video game industry, if they are an icon to those who play video games.
 

Kokiden

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Didn't Sakurai say that a game character has to be something along the lines of recognisable and be fun to play as?

I'm paraphrasing since I don't remember his exact wording.

One thing I will say about 2B and Shantae though that I haven't seen anyone bring up yet:

2B has the advantage of being in a popular and notable game in the modern era. Video games now have grown to be a lot bigger and mainstream, compared to the days when Shantae was around.

If they're going to pick one of the two, 2B is the better choice. She's modern, relevant, has featured in Soul Caliber, and would be easier to create movesets for.

Can't say the same for Shantae.

If we're talking about iconic, neither of them are. Being in one game that did really well, or a few sleeper hits (if we can even call it that), isn't enough for someone to be lauded iconic. Being an icon requires multiple hit titles, across a long span of time. It's why people won't argue when characters such as Mario, Link, or Pikachu are labelled as iconic. They've got the aforementioned in spades.
 
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DevaAshera

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If we're talking about iconic, neither of them are. Being in one game that did really well, or a few sleeper hits, isn't enough for someone to be lauded iconic. Being an icon requires multiple hit titles, across a long span of time. It's why people won't argue when characters such as Mario, Link, or Pikachu are labelled as iconic. They've got the aforementioned in spades.
I'm gonna have to disagree with you there for one reason, you can be iconic with just one title.
For example, look at Cloud Strife..I'd wager most people would consider him to be an Iconic RPG character and, outside of guest roles in games such as Final Fantasy Tactics and Kingdom Hearts, he only has had a single game, Final Fantasy VII, by the time he was considered Iconic.
Of a similar note, though different media, Totoro is pretty iconic and was only ever truly featured in his eponymous film.
 
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Kokiden

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I'm gonna have to disagree with you there for one reason, you can be iconic with just one title.
For example, look at Cloud Strife..I'd wager most people would consider him to be an Iconic RPG character and, outside of guest roles in games such as Final Fantasy Tactics and Kingdom Hearts, he only has had a single game, Final Fantasy VII, by the time he was considered Iconic.
Of a similar note, though different media, Totoro is pretty iconic and was only ever truly featured in his eponymous film.
Fair point.

I don't consider Shantae iconic. As for 2B? I'm just not sure. She's big, yeah, but on the same level as say Mario or Link, who I definitely consider iconic? It's debatable, which is what we're doing now lol. I'd still say no though, even though I love her character a lot.

To me, it just seems there needs to be more than sales success for someone to be iconic. It's a status that I don't think should be easily achieved. There are so many factors that go into it, sales only being one of them.
 

Pinguino21v

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If they're going to pick one of the two, 2B is the better choice. She's modern, relevant, has featured in Soul Caliber, and would be easier to create movesets for.

Can't say the same for Shantae.
I fully agree that 2B is immensely more likely to happen than Shantae, but it is either ignorant or dishonest to say that Shantae's moveset would be difficult to create (if you consider the "difficulty" to be about coming up with ideas).
 

Kokiden

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I fully agree that 2B is immensely more likely to happen than Shantae, but it is either ignorant or dishonest to say that Shantae's moveset would be difficult to create (if you consider the "difficulty" to be about coming up with ideas).
No, no, not difficult.

I meant it's just easier to work with 2B since she's from an action game, so the moves are there already. There's also her Soul Caliber stuff too.

It's like Bayonetta. Everything she does in this game is from her original game. They just had to pick and choose which move to carry over into Smash.

They created movesets for Isabelle and Peach, so I don't think that's a problem at all lol.
 
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DevaAshera

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Shantae's dancing and transformation magic could be hard to incorporate due to how many character models would be needed.
Fair point.

I don't consider Shantae iconic. As for 2B? I'm just not sure. She's big, yeah, but on the same level as say Mario or Link, who I definitely consider iconic? It's debatable, which is what we're doing now lol. I'd still say no though, even though I love her character a lot.

To me, it just seems there needs to be more than sales success for someone to be iconic. It's a status that I don't think should be easily achieved. There are so many factors that go into it, sales only being one of them.
Which is why I've been saying its very subjective to what each person's idea of what being 'iconic' means.
 

DMTN

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Everyone has a different definition of iconic. It also depends on the context, time and place. For example, Banjo was an icon of the N64 days. But if you look broader than that, the situation changes. I assume when people talk about 'being iconic', they talk about all of gaming. If that's the case, most of the characters in Smash are probably not iconic. Therefore, not being iconic doesn't mean all that much for a character's chances to get into Smash.
 

Kokiden

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Shantae's dancing and transformation magic could be hard to incorporate due to how many character models would be needed.

Which is why I've been saying its very subjective to what each person's idea of what being 'iconic' means.
Hmmm... yeah I think we're going to have to disagree here.

I don't think iconic is something that is easily attained, and longevity is important in defining it.

Recogniseable and popular aren't the same as iconic. It's a whole new level. I don't think it makes sense for 2B to be seen as on the same level as Mario or Sonic. That's just how I see it.


assume when people talk about 'being iconic', they talk about all of gaming. If that's the case, most of the characters in Smash are probably not iconic.
That's how I'm viewing iconic, yeah.

I don't think it should be so commonplace, or else it'll lose its significance.
 
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ErenJager

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You are twisting the definition to try and make it only apply to a general populace. A character can absolutely be iconic within the video game industry, if they are an icon to those who play video games.
No, i'm not.
If literally anything can be considered iconic.
Then nothing is.
Well known in small circles, isn't well known. (Literally moving the goal post to fit your character to meet iconic definition)
Something could be well known to me and no one else, so what? It's iconic to who? me?
You bastardize the word when you apply to everything.

I'm not twisting the definition, you are, well known means well known.
Not "well known to certain specific group or small segments of the population" which is how you're trying to twist it to mean.
My definition (the dictionary definition) is the most literal and direct interruption possible.
Gooby, please.
 
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for the record, as far as how spirit fights can be represented

if you own the Cuphead costume, the Cuphead and Mugman spirit fights actually do use it instead of Mega Man
and all 4 Cuphead spirits play Floral Fury

so they've finally found a way to have spirits either utilize DLC, or make backup approximates when you do not own the relevant DLC
EQusPyGUYAADt_C.jpg

Yep, I tried it out and quite honestly it is interesting for this to be the case if you own the relevant DLC. I guess it will be the same for Sans if we get an Undertale spirit event down the line.
 

TwiceEXE

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No, i'm not.
If literally anything can be considered iconic.
Then nothing is.
Well known in small circles, isn't well known. (Literally moving the goal post to fit your character to meet iconic definition)
Something could be well known to me and no one else, so what? It's iconic to who? me?
You bastardize the word when you apply to everything.

I'm not twisting the definition, you are, well known means well known.
Not "well known to certain specific group or small segments of the population" which is how you're trying to twist it to mean.
My definition (the dictionary definition) is the most literal and direct interruption possible.
Gooby, please.
I mean, that's just incorrect. You are trying to strawman and it isn't going to work on me.

But there is no point debating it. You are entitled to an opinion and I don't care enough to try and point out the flaws.
 

Cutie Gwen

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Fair point.

I don't consider Shantae iconic. As for 2B? I'm just not sure. She's big, yeah, but on the same level as say Mario or Link, who I definitely consider iconic? It's debatable, which is what we're doing now lol. I'd still say no though, even though I love her character a lot.

To me, it just seems there needs to be more than sales success for someone to be iconic. It's a status that I don't think should be easily achieved. There are so many factors that go into it, sales only being one of them.
Mario and Link have been around for nearly 40 years, 2B's not even 5 years old, what is this comparison? Mario and Zelds are flagship series whereas NieR and Drakengard were flatout unknown before 2B showed up
 

ErenJager

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I mean, that's just incorrect. You are trying to strawman and it isn't going to work on me.

But there is no point debating it. You are entitled to an opinion and I don't care enough to try and point out the flaws.

Even like the cambridge dictionary speaks to being very popular or very famous.
Which Pikachu, Mario, Pac-Man are easily...
But as for lesser known characters like 2B and Shantae I wouldn't say they reach the status of famous.
Therefore they cannot be iconic.
I am not wrong.

It's not straw manning the dictionary says famous or popular, well known, well established.
Depending what dictionary.
You can say famous to the smash community or niche gaming communities, but then everything would be very famous, when its clearly not.

Words mean what they mean, its not an opinion.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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Even like the cambridge dictionary speaks to being very popular or very famous.
Which Pikachu, Mario, Pac-Man are easily...
But as for lesser known characters like 2B and Shantae I wouldn't say they reach the status of famous.
Therefore they cannot be iconic.
I am not wrong.

It's not straw manning the dictionary says famous or popular, well known, well established.
Depending what dictionary.
You can say famous to the smash community or niche gaming communities, but then everything would be very famous, when its clearly not.
Hell yeah you're wrong, 2B's game sold 5 million copies, a highly impressive feat considering her franchise was ridiculously niche. Most modern gamers can look at 2B and go "Yup that's 2B from NieR Automata"
 

Kokiden

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Mario and Link have been around for nearly 40 years, 2B's not even 5 years old, what is this comparison? Mario and Zelds are flagship series whereas NieR and Drakengard were flatout unknown before 2B showed up
... yes that is exactly the point I was trying to make Gwen...

It's why I DON'T see 2B as iconic, because she's still so new and hasn't achieved enough accolades, as well as the exact same reasons you just said yourself...

Iconic means defining, leading, and world renowned with a legacy. As such, it's why I don't think it makes sense for people to describe 2B as iconic, a word that is tied to Mario, Link and Sonic...

Popular =/= iconic all the time.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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... yes that is exactly the point I was trying to make Gwen...

It's why I DON'T see 2B as iconic, because she's still so new and hasn't achieved enough accolades...

Iconic means defining, leading, and world renowned with a legacy. As such, it's why I don't think it makes sense for people to describe 2B as iconic, a word that is tied to Mario, Link and Sonic...

Popular =/= iconic all the time.
Ok but you HAVE to realize that if 2 franchises selling constant hits that get big coverage since the beginning of gaming is your comparison point then barely any franchise gets to be considered iconic. Not many franchises can compare with a nearly 40 ****ing year legacy which constantly changed the game due to the industry still being very new. That's an unfair standard for damn near anyone, if this standard was applied for who got to be in Smash, then the roster would only be Mario, Zelda, Pokemon and maybe Sonic and Animal Crossing
 

ErenJager

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Hell yeah you're wrong, 2B's game sold 5 million copies, a highly impressive feat considering her franchise was ridiculously niche. Most modern gamers can look at 2B and go "Yup that's 2B from NieR Automata"

Everyone and everything is iconic.
You are iconic, brad pit, tom cruise also iconic.

The word means nothing, it loses its meaning, no differentiating,

Either iconic things can be reserved for the title or definition of iconic.
Or by whats being proposed, everything is iconic.
Nintendo's iconic character mario, is now replaced with the new icon Byleth.

All users should be forced to provide proof of their Smash Ultimate game play completion/ hours.
So that their opinions can be valued appropriately.
Also everyone should prove their real life accomplishments to demonstrate they're reasoning and capabilities, as a direct reflection of who they are.
Just my opinion.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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Everyone and everything is iconic.
You are iconic, brad pit, tom cruise also iconic.

The word means nothing, it loses its meaning, no differentiating,

Either iconic things can be reserved for the title or definition of iconic.
Or by whats being proposed, everything is iconic.
Nintendo's iconic character mario, is now replaced with the new icon Byleth.
This man really trying to say 5 million for an IP so unknown it may as well have not existed is chump change. Let alone that 5 million sales at all is chump change
 

Kokiden

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Ok but you HAVE to realize that if 2 franchises selling constant hits that get big coverage since the beginning of gaming is your comparison point then barely any franchise gets to be considered iconic. Not many franchises can compare with a nearly 40 ****ing year legacy which constantly changed the game due to the industry still being very new. That's an unfair standard for damn near anyone, if this standard was applied for who got to be in Smash, then the roster would only be Mario, Zelda, Pokemon and maybe Sonic and Animal Crossing
You don't need to be iconic to get into Smash though.

I love Bayonetta but she is niche at best.

Iconic isn't meant to be easily attainable, like I said earlier. That's the point. It's not unfair because the standard is difficult by default.

However, you don't need to be iconic to get into smash. Just needed to repeat that in case someone got the wrong idea.

It doesn't need to be 40 years, but you do need a string of hits, or perhaps one game that is just so damn huge for its time, global recognition, and a status that is just so large, that most people would be able to tell who a certain character. That's what it means to be iconic.

Just to be clear, characters don't NEED to be iconic to be popular or considered good. It's not an insult to not be considered iconic. Iconic is, after all, a status that is only meant for the few anyway.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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You don't need to be iconic to get into Smash though.

I love Bayonetta but she is niche at best.

Iconic isn't meant to be easily attainable, like I said earlier. That's the point. It's not unfair because the standard is difficult by default.

However, you don't need to be iconic to get into smash. Just needed to repeat that in case someone got the wrong idea.

It doesn't need to be 40 years, but you do need a string of hits, or perhaps one game that is just so damn huge for its time, global recognition, and a status that is just so large, that most people would be able to tell who a certain character. That's what it means to be iconic.
...Again, 2B fits that bill quite well, my issue was the comparison with Mario and Link, two of the most iconic characters since the beginning of time, which would be like saying Ed Edd and Eddy isn't iconic because it doesn't stand up to Bugs Bunny or Mickey Mouse
 

ErenJager

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This man really trying to say 5 million for an IP so unknown it may as well have not existed is chump change. Let alone that 5 million sales at all is chump change
Yes Mario and Pikachu are iconic, so is 2B, they are some how on equal footing as icons.
Average home price in Toronto is a million dollars.
Idk maybe if you worked in real estate someone would consider it chump change.
 
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Kokiden

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...Again, 2B fits that bill quite well, my issue was the comparison with Mario and Link, two of the most iconic characters since the beginning of time, which would be like saying Ed Edd and Eddy isn't iconic because it doesn't stand up to Bugs Bunny or Mickey Mouse
Might as well say Alloy from Horizon Zero Dawn is iconic too, or Joker from Persona 5. They're all modern, sold well, and the characters were from one game.

We're just going to have to disagree on this.

If it's that easy for a character to be iconic, then the industry is overflowing with them at this point.
 
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Cutie Gwen

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Yes Mario and Pikachu are iconic, so is 2B, they are some how on equal footing as icons.
Average home price in Toronto is a million dollars.
Idk maybe if you worked in real estate someone would consider it chump change.
Yes, because all icons are apparantly equal despite that not being the argument at all.

Lmao if you have to compare to the housing industry in a country with an issue of homelessness because houses are too expensive then you're really out of potential arguments
 

osby

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Yes Mario and Pikachu are iconic, so is 2B, they are some how on equal footing as icons.
This argument is getting dumb but you know people can use adjectives relatively, right? Just because people use "iconic" for two different things doesn't mean they are equally recognizable among any given demographic.

Dragon Quest can be iconic for Japanese audiences and not for Western ones. Banjo is an iconic character for 90s kids but not so much for modern gamers.
 

Cutie Gwen

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Might as well say Alloy from Horizon Zero Dawn is iconic too, or Joker from Persona 5. They're all modern, sold well, and the characters were from one game.

We're just going to have to disagree on this.

If it's that easy for a character to be iconic, then the industry is overflowing with them at this point.
This assumes that they are all equally iconic, which of course that's not true, there's a reason more people will recognize Link than Zelda herself, but that doesn't mean Zelda isn't iconic. And although I can't speak for Alloy as the only time I saw people talk about her game since it came out was with the PC port announcement, people refuse to shut up about Persona 5, there's a reason every RPG these days gets compared to Persona 5, there's a reason people have cosplayed as the Persona 5 battle menu, there's a reason Joker's in a ****ton of crossovers, Joker is indeed iconic, a rather recognizable character within his own right. Would one consider Bruce Willis an iconic actor despite not being from a franchise as succesful as one Robert Downey Jr was in? Yes, because he's still easily recognizable
 

Herocin

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Hot take incoming.

If we are getting another Square rep, it is 100% going to be either Sora or 2B. I’m sorry, but Sakurai legit had the rights for Geno (contradicting the “Square Bad!” narrative that people are STILL trying to push to this day) and he still made the conscious decision to make him a Spirit. Its over. If there was still any desire to make him playable, it would’ve happened by now. Its honestly really shocking that everyone and their mother are still putting him on prediction lists and that his thread legitimately thinks he is a lock.

Also, a huge reason why we got K Rool, Banjo, Ridley ect was because of the ballot, which undeniably had a huge influence on this game. And ironically enough, that was the one time period that his support went down significantly compared to Brawl and Ultimate. The moment where it absolutely mattered most, the support base didn’t show up.
I’m fairly certain that’s not how rights work. When Sakurai got the rights for Geno, he was only allowed to use him as a spirit. When you gain the rights for someone you can’t use them how you want, you can only use them in the role that is agreed on which in this case is a spirit. His mii outfit was made a pretty big deal out of and he only got a mii outfit due to the constant demand
 
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Cutie Gwen

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I’m fairly certain that’s not how tights work. When Sakurai got the rights for Geno, he was only allowed to use him as a spirit. When you gain the rights for someone you can’t use them how you want, you can only use them in the role that is agreed on which in this case is a spirit. And I’m fairly certain Geno is popular. Compare his Mii outfit reveal to K. Rools for instance. You can tell he only made a big deal about the mii outfit due to the fan demand. Not that I think he’s a lock or anything
K.Rool's mii costume got the response it did because K.Rool fans weren't sure what it meant, did it mean K.Rool was out? Was it a sign he was in? A consolation prize to acknowledge his popularity? An insult to their wishes? Geno's costume was revealed in the final Smash direct, which made the situation obvious to everyone
 

Herocin

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K.Rool's mii costume got the response it did because K.Rool fans weren't sure what it meant, did it mean K.Rool was out? Was it a sign he was in? A consolation prize to acknowledge his popularity? An insult to their wishes? Geno's costume was revealed in the final Smash direct, which made the situation obvious to everyone
Yeah k. Maybe that point didn’t make much sense in retrospect.
 
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We're not that far away from having a serious discussion about Sony in Smash it feels like, and I remember laughing about that when I first signed up here.
I mean, quite a few Sony characters have support threads these days. I think as long as Sony was as willing as Microsoft, it would almost certainly be the next territory for Smash to expand to. Only problem is getting Sony to agree, but I think even that is kinda overblown.
 

Kokiden

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This assumes that they are all equally iconic, which of course that's not true, there's a reason more people will recognize Link than Zelda herself, but that doesn't mean Zelda isn't iconic. And although I can't speak for Alloy as the only time I saw people talk about her game since it came out was with the PC port announcement, people refuse to shut up about Persona 5, there's a reason every RPG these days gets compared to Persona 5, there's a reason people have cosplayed as the Persona 5 battle menu, there's a reason Joker's in a ****ton of crossovers, Joker is indeed iconic, a rather recognizable character within his own right. Would one consider Bruce Willis an iconic actor despite not being from a franchise as succesful as one Robert Downey Jr was in? Yes, because he's still easily recognizable
Iconic and popular are two separate tiers altogether.

It honestly seems like one automatically means the other in this case.
 

Cutie Gwen

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Iconic and popular are two separate tiers altogether.

It honestly seems like one automatically means the other in this case.
I cannot agree. Chun Li is for example, certainly iconic, the first lady of fighting games! A character able to get her own solo live action movie despite no other character from her franchise getting such a thing! But when compared to Pikachu, she's a literal who because everyone knows Pikachu, this feels like you're trying to say that if one character is more iconic than the other, then only one can be deemed iconic
 

Kokiden

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I cannot agree. Chun Li is for example, certainly iconic, the first lady of fighting games! A character able to get her own solo live action movie despite no other character from her franchise getting such a thing! But when compared to Pikachu, she's a literal who because everyone knows Pikachu, this feels like you're trying to say that if one character is more iconic than the other, then only one can be deemed iconic
Im saying nothing of the sort.

Both Chun Li and Pikachu are iconic of course
Not going to even debate that.

Iconic is used in the grand scope of things and for those two, heck yeah even non gamers would be able to know who they are.

Can’t say the same for 2B or even Joker.

They’re popular, but nowhere near enough for even non gamers, or even some casuals, to know who they are.

That there is the difference.
 
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