Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Ovaltine]

Phrases like who "gets a pass" or "belonged in Smash" or "not destined" are completely arbitrary criterias and by no means are real arguments against Resident Evil.

They're probably the worst criteria I've ever seen in the Smash community, as well. Who the fan base thinks 'deserves' it or not doesn't matter, for it's Nintendo's and Sakurai's bottom line in the end. We've had characters from game series that are multi-million sellers like Mario and Zelda, as well as characters with smaller sales like Bayonetta and Joker. We even have ROB, for goodness sakes. He's more known for being a peripheral than his appearance in his own packaged games (Gyromite and, frick, I don't remember the name of the other one lol).

Whenever people make fan rules about who 'deserves' to be in and who 'belongs' in Smash, Sakurai stomps them out... yet people still don't learn. At this point, outside of probably 4th parties, it's pretty much anyone's game. Likelihood and unlikelihood that we, as the public, perceive is one thing, but saying who does or doesn't get a pass based on arbitrary rules is another.

He is an icon but there are bigger icons that way more likely than Steve. Characters like Reimu are more likely because She has much bigger extensive history than majority of characters from indie games. I am not denying Steve being a big icon, my argument still stands that there are bigger and more popular icons in Japan that will bring more to the table than Steve.

lol? Minecraft is far more iconic than Reimu, especially in the West.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Touhou is very obscure outside of Japan/Asian countries. Minecraft is known worldwide. It's not a contest.

You aren't going to see Touhou merchandise worldwide. You are going to see tons of Minecraft merchandise worldwide, including Steve.

It's not a contest here. Steve is a bigger icon(never mind how huge the franchise already is, and him being highly recognizable. Game is pretty much up there with the major gaming icons like Pac-Man. In fact, there's a strong argument to be made that almost every major gaming icon is in Smash, with a very tiny list of who is left. Steve is absolutely among that list. You also have others like Master Chief, Doom Slayer.. and I can't think of anybody else that isn't already in Smash and part of a series that revolutionized gaming as a whole. Not counting 1st parties, anyway). I probably missed something, but that's 3 major gaming icons not in Smash yet.

 

[Idon]

He is an icon but there are bigger icons that way more likely than Steve. Characters like Reimu are more likely because She has much bigger extensive history than majority of characters from indie games. I am not denying Steve being a big icon, my argument still stands that there are bigger and more popular icons in Japan that will bring more to the table than Steve.

History doesn't mean much if you're not as iconic/popular and by extension, profitable.

For example, there's a reason we got Cloud from Final Fantasy 7 and Joker from Persona 5 along with using Sonic's modern appearance.

 

[thisjustin2001]

Of course BK isn't as popular, but MS uses Banjo in marketing for Xbox Game Pass among their other IPs.

Not as much as they use Halo, Gears, Forza and even Ori.

You're exaggerating how obscure Banjo is just to spite the "Smash bubble". Of course BK isn't as popular, but MS uses Banjo in marketing for Xbox Game Pass among their other IPs.

Very, very few people born from 2000-2019 (a period of almost two decades) have played about Banjo-Kazooie, or even had a chance to fall in love with the IP, because believe it or not, that's how long it's been since they had a good game. I don't hate Banjo, I just think I can be a bit more objective about them and their popularity because I'm not one of those people who have major nostalgia for Banjo and Kazooie. But, then again Banjo most certainly can get in over Steve, I just don't know that he should.

Banjo targets a very specific audience, people who played Banjo on the N64. That's an audience of adults who specifically picked an N64 over PS1 and Dreamcast in that specific generation. Steve on the other hand, would appeal to about a hundred million gamers kids and adults alike from the last two game generations, regardless of if they played on Xbox, Playstation, Nintendo systems, PC, or mobile. I don't see why you'd pick a character that doesn't please many outside the Smash bubble (most of which are such hardcore Smash fans, they'll probably buy all the DLC, regardless of what it is) over a juggernaut like Steve who pleases almost everyone whether you're a kid or an adult, console, PC or a mobile gamer, hardcore or casual, Playstation, Xbox or Nintendo gamer. Just my thoughts.

UPDATE: Yesterday, it was announced Minecraft has had 176,000,000 sales, meaning it has dethroned Tetris series and has become the best selling game of all time, just in time for it's 10th anniversary!

 

[Guynamednelson]

Not as much as they use Halo, Gears, Forza and even Ori.



Very, very few people born from 2000-2019 (a period of almost two decades) have played about Banjo-Kazooie, or even had a chance to fall in love with the IP, because believe it or not, that's how long it's been since they had a good game. I don't hate Banjo, I just think I can be a bit more objective about them and their popularity because I'm not one of those people who have major nostalgia for Banjo and Kazooie. But, then again Banjo most certainly can get in over Steve, I just don't know that he should. Banjo targets a very specific audience, people who played Banjo on the N64. That's an audience of adults who specifically picked an N64 over PS1 and Dreamcast in that specific generation. Steve on the other hand, would appeal to about a hundred million gamers kids and adults alike from the last two game generations, regardless of if they played on Xbox, Playstation, Nintendo systems, PC, or mobile. I don't see why you'd pick a character that doesn't please many outside the Smash bubble (most of which are such hardcore Smash fans, they'll probably buy all the DLC, regardless of what it is) over a juggernaut like Steve who pleases almost everyone whether you're a kid or an adult, console, PC or a mobile gamer, hardcore or casual, Playstation, Xbox or Nintendo gamer. Just my thoughts.

See, that is exaggerating, by acting like millions haven't played BK. Nintendo's profits will barely be affected by choosing the bear, the real difference will be that the anti-Smash Bubble bubble will be the ones complaining.

 

[Izanagi97]

See, that is exaggerating, by acting like millions haven't played BK. Nintendo's profits will barely be affected by choosing the bear, the real difference will be that the anti-Smash Bubble bubble will be the ones complaining.

And besides, who's to say that kids wouldn't like the bear? He's a ****ing cartoon bear in shorts carrying a cartoon bird in a backpack

 

[SeasideKingDumb]

I don't think we can say who's more likely or less likely. It's up to the developers 100%. They could drop the next character being something like the bodybuilder ghost from Luigi's Mansion for crying out loud. The only concrete rule is that it has to originate from a video game, and ROB was borderline crossing that rule anyways.

I think comparing sales numbers and "influence" or history isn't really too terribly relevant. Minecraft, for example, is one of the biggest games of all time, but there's a legit chance Sakurai doesn't think he has enough personality to build a character off of. Maybe he doesn't have enough familiarity with the Banjo-Kazooie franchise to bother with it. We genuinely just don't know.

Long story short there aren't any rules. Assuming Nintendo didn't have 100% control over the choices (which they probably didn't since Joker wasn't really tied to anything aside from a small spinoff coming out), pretty much any character in gaming has a fair shot at this point. I don't think we should put down each other's picks and argue about relevancy when King K. Rool, a character whose last game was MARIO SUPER SLUGGERS, got in the hardest-to-get-into Smash Bros in history. Anything's up for grabs.

 

[osby]

And besides, who's to say that kids wouldn't like the bear?

Nobody. But "people would love this character!" seems like a bit too subjective to reliably argue.

 

[Ovaltine]

They could drop the next character being something like the bodybuilder ghost from Luigi's Mansion for crying out loud.

I would be crying out loud.

From laughter.

... Does he have a spirit in the game, actually? (thinking emoji)

 

[3BitSaurus]

Minecraft has 74 million players that log in monthly. So, while Banjo would please thousands in the Smash bubble, Steve would please millions upon millions of people.

Oh, I meant more in relation to polls, not total sales figures. Sorry, should have clarified. Both usually rank in 1~2 thousands of votes. Even in ballots outside of the Smash bubble.

I think that just because a game/character is very popular, doesn't mean all their fans automatically consider them for Smash. I was in a similar position with characters like Arle and Phoenix until somewhat recently.

I get what you're trying to say, but as we've discussed previously in this thread, sales numbers is one out of several factors that can help a character become DLC. I don't think this makes character X inherently better than Y. It's certainly a point in their favor, but that's it.

EDIT: I'd argue that the very fact that Banjo is niche is exactly what would make him profitable. He's a retro pick, which we had before on DLC, but mainly, he's a western character that has been consistently top 5 most wanted over here for over a decade. This is especially relevant if we get Erdrick - having a character that caters mostly to Japan and a character that caters mostly to the West can be a genius move. Not to mention, they both could fulfill different marketing moves.

 

[Megadoomer]

I feel like any character is going to sell well as Smash DLC - we got a Piranha Plant, along with Roy, a Fire Emblem character whose main claims to fame were (at the time of his release as DLC) his Japan-exclusive game and being in a single Smash Bros. game roughly 14 years ago. Whether it's Banjo or Steve, tons of people are going to buy them.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Banjo targets a very specific audience, people who played Banjo on the N64. That's an audience of adults who specifically picked an N64 over PS1 and Dreamcast in that specific generation. Steve on the other hand, would appeal to about a hundred million gamers kids and adults alike from the last two game generations, regardless of if they played on Xbox, Playstation, Nintendo systems, PC, or mobile.

This is just the 'X sold better therefore it's more likely' argument. Coming soon, Tetris block and PUBG guy!

 

[Exiliify]

Yes Minecraft is more recognizable worldwide than most games. But remember that Japanese have different tastes in terms what they like in games than western audiences. PC gaming only became getting more popular in recent years, but console and mobile are still dominant. Just because Minecraft is popular in the western world doesn’t mean its popularity in the east

You underestimate the amount of popularity Touhou has globally. Worldwide Steve maybe larger, however, Touhou isn’t that obscure. The popularity in Japan is large enough to get her a spot in Smash. The fanbase outside of Japan has always been fairly large, larger than most indie games. Touhou has been mainly PC and getting them has been difficult for western gamers which is why it appears to be obscure to some.

Gaming history may not always matter in terms of character getting in. However, in terms of indie games, you cannot deny the history and the impact Touhou has had. Reimu is more capable of bringing something unique mechanically than Steve will. Just because a character is popular globally because of one game came out in recent times does not guarantee they will be a priority over a character from series with more history, larger cultural impact

If Steve gets added before Reimu, great. But people here seriously underestimate the chances Reimu has getting into smash as the first indie rep. I can see Steve being a spirit, assist, or costume but not playable character yet

 

[thisjustin2001]

Oh, I meant more in relation to polls, not total sales figures. Sorry, should have clarified. Both usually rank in 1~2 thousands of votes. Even in ballots outside of the Smash bubble.

No, I'm sorry. It was me who misunderstood you.

Besides the official Smash Fighter Ballot, I don't think there are any Smash fan polls that are outside the Smash bubble. It's very easy to find data on what the very hardcore Smash fans want, but I'd look at data like sales figures and overall popularity outside the Smash fan base to see what characters would make a huge splash with people outside the Smash bubble.

Yes Minecraft is more recognizable worldwide than most games. But remember that Japanese have different tastes in terms what they like in games than western audiences. PC gaming only became getting more popular in recent years, but console and mobile are still dominant. Just because Minecraft is popular in the western world doesn’t mean its popularity in the east

You underestimate the amount of popularity Touhou has globally. Worldwide Steve maybe larger, however, Touhou isn’t that obscure. The popularity in Japan is large enough to get her a spot in Smash. The fanbase outside of Japan has always been fairly large, larger than most indie games. Touhou has been mainly PC and getting them has been difficult for western gamers which is why it appears to be obscure to some.

Gaming history may not always matter in terms of character getting in. However, in terms of indie games, you cannot deny the history and the impact Touhou has had. Reimu is more capable of bringing something unique mechanically than Steve will. Just because a character is popular globally because of one game came out in recent times does not guarantee they will be a priority over a character from series with more history, larger cultural impact

If Steve gets added before Reimu, great. But people here seriously underestimate the chances Reimu has getting into smash as the first indie rep.

I slept on Reimu because I didn't know she existed, haha.

I thought I'd let you know that Minecraft is HUGE in Japan. Minecraft did boom in Japan after Minecraft released on Wii U and got even bigger when it released on Switch. It was also announced yesterday that Minecraft is now the best selling game of all time. Minecraft definitely has eastern and worldwide appeal.

 

[3BitSaurus]

No, I'm sorry. It was me who misunderstood you.

Besides the official Smash Fighter Ballot, I don't think there are any Smash fan polls that are outside the Smash bubble. It's very easy to find data on what the very hardcore Smash fans want, but I'd look at data like sales figures and overall popularity outside the Smash fan base to see what characters would make a huge splash with people outside the Smash bubble.

While I do agree on some level, polls on twitter reach a considerably larger audience than one started here or on, say, GameFaqs. One who doesn't consist of only "hardcore" fans. I think we shouldn't ignore the difference this makes, either. True, only the Ballot has the data for the Ballot (which is why I really, really wish they had realeased the full results, even if I had to waddle through a sea of Gokus and Shreks), but some polls, like the latest one, come close.

Ah, here's something I don't see many people talk about: people say certain characters (like Steve, but some others as well) have, as you said "a huge splash with people outside the Smash bubble". I wonder, is that really enough for someone who doesn't like Smash at all to buy the game? I'm asking more out of curiosity, simply because I personally could never really understand buying a game for one character (not one for doing this). Do we have data on how many sales this kind of thing generates?

This isn't just as a Smash fan, I think this information is interesting to me as an aspiring game dev.

 

[Wunderwaft]

I feel like any character is going to sell well as Smash DLC - we got a Piranha Plant, along with Roy, a Fire Emblem character whose main claims to fame were (at the time of his release as DLC) his Japan-exclusive game and being in a single Smash Bros. game roughly 14 years ago. Whether it's Banjo or Steve, tons of people are going to buy them.

Pretty much this
They could add the training sand bag as the next DLC character and it will still sell a lot. The sales for Smash Ultimate are nearly 14 million, even if only a quarter of that number bought the DLC it would still be a massive profit.

 

[Deleted member]

I recently finished my first E3 Bingo chart, with some squares featuring Smash-related stuff:

Let’s see how many of these I get right.

 

[PeridotGX]

Yes Minecraft is more recognizable worldwide than most games. But remember that Japanese have different tastes in terms what they like in games than western audiences. PC gaming only became getting more popular in recent years, but console and mobile are still dominant. Just because Minecraft is popular in the western world doesn’t mean its popularity in the east

You underestimate the amount of popularity Touhou has globally. Worldwide Steve maybe larger, however, Touhou isn’t that obscure. The popularity in Japan is large enough to get her a spot in Smash. The fanbase outside of Japan has always been fairly large, larger than most indie games. Touhou has been mainly PC and getting them has been difficult for western gamers which is why it appears to be obscure to some.

Gaming history may not always matter in terms of character getting in. However, in terms of indie games, you cannot deny the history and the impact Touhou has had. Reimu is more capable of bringing something unique mechanically than Steve will. Just because a character is popular globally because of one game came out in recent times does not guarantee they will be a priority over a character from series with more history, larger cultural impact

If Steve gets added before Reimu, great. But people here seriously underestimate the chances Reimu has getting into smash as the first indie rep. I can see Steve being a spirit, assist, or costume but not playable character yet

I feel like Minecraft (or Undertale, for that matter) are more likely then Reimu because they are popular worldwide, instead of just in Japan. Minecraft was very popular over there, and Undertale was absolutely massive. I believe it's on record that Sakurai played and loved both (I might be wrong, though)

 

[Exiliify]

I slept on Reimu because I didn't know she existed, haha.

I thought I'd let you know that Minecraft is HUGE in Japan. Minecraft did boom in Japan after Minecraft released on Wii U and got even bigger when it released on Switch. It was also announced yesterday that Minecraft is now the best selling game of all time. Minecraft definitely has eastern and worldwide appeal.

Ok but their popularity doesn’t come close to the popularity of Touhou in Japan. Touhou has been one of most popular gaming series for years. Only reason why Reimu isn’t in smash is because of ZUN has been reluctant to release Touhou on major platforms. Now that has changed and an official Touhou game now getting on the switch, Reimu’s chances are going be higher.

 

[thisjustin2001]

While I do agree on some level, polls on twitter reach a considerably larger audience than one started here or on, say, GameFaqs. One who doesn't consist of only "hardcore" fans. I think we shouldn't ignore the difference this makes, either. True, only the Ballot has the data for the Ballot (which is why I really, really wish they had realeased the full results, even if I had to waddle through a sea of Gokus and Shreks), but some polls, like the latest one, come close.

Ah, here's something I don't see many people talk about: people say certain characters (like Steve, but some others as well) have, as you said "a huge splash with people outside the Smash bubble". I wonder, is that really enough for someone who doesn't like Smash at all to buy the game? I'm asking more out of curiosity, simply because I personally could never really understand buying a game for one character (not one for doing this). Do we have data on how many sales this kind of thing generates?

This isn't just as a Smash fan, I think this information is interesting to me as an aspiring game dev.

Although, Nintendo doesn't disclose how many people certain guest characters bring into Smash, we have seen this in other fighting games. Brawlout started selling much better when they started bringing in indie icons like, Juan, the Beheaded and Hyper Light Drifter, so my answer is...I think so? I think that's always been the whole point of guest characters and why almost all fighting games have them, because they work, and they bring new people in who wouldn't have bought the game otherwise.

Ok but their popularity doesn’t come close to the popularity of Touhou in Japan. Touhou has been one of most popular gaming series for years. Only reason why Reimu isn’t in smash is because of ZUN has been reluctant to release Touhou on major platforms. Now that has changed and an official Touhou game now getting on the switch, Reimu’s chances are going be higher.

How do you know Touhou is more popular than Minecraft in Japan? Minecraft is consistently on the top eShop page in Japan, so that's a part of how I know it's doing well in Japan. Also, how do you know that Touhou not being on major platforms is the only reason it's not in Smash?

I really can't argue for or against Touhou because outside of Toby Fox saying Touhou (along with Yume Nikki, Earthbound and Cave Story) was a inspiration for Undertale and a couple people saying they'd like the Touhou protag in Smash, I've really never heard of it.

 

[Curious Villager]

Ok but their popularity doesn’t come close to the popularity of Touhou in Japan. Touhou has been one of most popular gaming series for years. Only reason why Reimu isn’t in smash is because of ZUN has been reluctant to release Touhou on major platforms. Now that has changed and an official Touhou game now getting on the switch, Reimu’s chances are going be higher.

Just wondering, does Touhou have a game released outside of Japan at one point?

 

[Exiliify]

I feel like Minecraft (or Undertale, for that matter) are more likely then Reimu because they are popular worldwide, instead of just in Japan. Minecraft was very popular over there, and Undertale was absolutely massive. I believe it's on record that Sakurai played and loved both (I might be wrong, though)

No no no no no. Undertale will not get in before Touhou. Touhou was inspiration for undertale, Toby Fox said this himself. Touhou has been around for years and still is extremely popular in Japan and Eastern Asia. Undertale is more niche than Touhou is

 

[3BitSaurus]

Although, Nintendo doesn't disclose how many people certain guest characters bring into Smash, we have seen this in other fighting games. Brawlout started selling much better when they started bringing in indie icons like, Juan, the Beheaded and Hyper Light Drifter, so my answer is...I think so? I think that's always been the whole point of guest characters and why almost all fighting games have them, because they work, and they bring new people in who wouldn't have bought the game otherwise.

True, but I mean... how much of the original playerbase? For example, how many people who played Street Fighter but not Smash started when Ryu was announced? Or Final Fantasy fans with Cloud?

Ok but their popularity doesn’t come close to the popularity of Touhou in Japan. Touhou has been one of most popular gaming series for years. Only reason why Reimu isn’t in smash is because of ZUN has been reluctant to release Touhou on major platforms. Now that has changed and an official Touhou game now getting on the switch, Reimu’s chances are going be higher.

I think you might have a point here, simply because of how much **** was spawned by the original games (Touhou is in Guinness for this). Interestingly enough, the biggest obstacle of a Touhou rep would be another heavily Japan-centric character, like Erdrick. If Nintendo is spreading out with DLC, I doubt they would go for a game with much more regional appeal twice.

Just wondering, does Touhou have a game released outside of Japan at one point?

Don't think that's ever stopped Sakurai, at least not in base game (). DLC might be another story, though.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Just wondering, does Touhou have a game released outside of Japan at one point?

Yep
Hidden Star in Four Season, Legacy of a Lunatic Kingdom, Impossible Spell Card, and Violet detector all got released worldwide on Steam. And soon Wily Beast and Weakest Creature will be released as well. And that's not counting the official fighting games that were also released worldwide.

 

[Exiliify]

Just wondering, does Touhou have a game released outside of Japan at one point?

Yes, multiple. Urban Legend in Limbo on PS4 in 2016. Recent Touhou games have been released on steam including multiple fan games. Switch has multiple fangames already exist on the switch wand the most recent fighting game has been announced as well. The games on the switch have done well already, not sure about the numbers on PS4

 

[Curious Villager]

Don't think that's ever stopped Sakurai, at least not in base game (). DLC might be another story, though.

I mean yeah, however, I believe he stated that he would have made Marth and Roy Japan exclusive's until he was convinced by NoA to make them playable outside of Japan anyway from what I recall.
He wouldn't have included Lucas either had he known that Mother 3 wasn't going to come outside of Japan. I believe he also avoided making Takamaru playable due to lack of Western familiarity or something.

It wouldn't be a dealbreaker, but he might be more reluctant in including those type of characters.

Then again, he was also super reluctant on realistic guns in Smash to the point he made Snake rely more on explosives and changing the Ray Gun's design only to flip the table with Bayonetta and Joker later on so what do I know... It's Sakurai..

Yep
Hidden Star in Four Season, Legacy of a Lunatic Kingdom, Impossible Spell Card, and Violet detector all got released worldwide on Steam. And soon Wily Beast and Weakest Creature will be released as well. And that's not counting the official fighting games that were also released worldwide.

Yes, multiple. Urban Legend in Limbo on PS4 in 2016. Recent Touhou games have been released on steam including multiple fan games. Switch has multiple fangames already exist on the switch wand the most recent fighting game has been announced as well. The games on the switch have done well already, not sure about the numbers on PS4

Alright then, just thought I'd ask. Since I'm not too familiar with that series.

 

[thisjustin2001]

No no no no no. Undertale will not get in before Touhou. Touhou was inspiration for undertale, Toby Fox said this himself. Touhou has been around for years and still is extremely popular in Japan and Eastern Asia. Undertale is more niche than Touhou is

A game being old doesn't make it more likely for Smash. Also, Touhou partly inspiring Undertale doesn't mean that Touhou has to get in first. Link is inspired by David (from the Bible) and Peter Pan and he made into Smash before either of them.

Moving on from that. Undertale is HUMONGOUS in Japan with merch and cameos in Manga and anime like it's multiples cameos in Pop Team Epic, and it has it's own concerts and stuff going on there. It's also outsold Dragon Quest Builders and XI on PS4, which is a testament to how big it is there. As far as I know, it is much bigger in Japan than it is here, and it doesn't have a raging hatebase in Japan like it does here. So, yeah not arguing that Touhou isn't big in Japan, but the sheer size of Undertale's fan base in Japan is nothing to sneeze at either.

 

[Exiliify]

True, but I mean... how much of the original playerbase? For example, how many people who played Street Fighter but not Smash started when Ryu was announced? Or Final Fantasy fans with Cloud?



I think you might have a point here, simply because of how much **** was spawned by the original games (Touhou is in Guinness for this). Interestingly enough, the biggest obstacle of a Touhou rep would be another heavily Japan-centric character, like Erdrick. If Nintendo is spreading out with DLC, I doubt they would go for a game with much more regional appeal twice.



Don't think that's ever stopped Sakurai, at least not in base game (). DLC might be another story, though.

I don’t recall Persona being that large either. To my knowledge the main reason Joker is in Ultimate is due to the history of Shin Megami Tensei.

 

[Idon]

I don’t recall Persona being that large either. To my knowledge the main reason Joker is in Ultimate is due to the history of Shin Megami Tensei.

HA, AS IF.

Nah, it's far more likely that Sakurai is a huge fan of Persona 5 and went to Atlus with the specific intent of asking for Joker from P5. After all, he has stated mutliple times how much he enjoys the game and how certain design and UI ques are taken directly from that game.

After all, if it was a "history" type of situation, I very much doubt Sakurai would've just chosen Persona 3, Persona 4, and Persona 5 representation (the most popular entries) while not using other entries and not using the mascot of Atlus and SMT, Jack Frost, well, anywhere.

Had it not been for those key elements coming together, between its popularity, Sakurai's enjoyment, and Atlus starting the P5 milking, it's very likely Atlus wouldn't even have a character represented.

 

[Wunderwaft]

I don’t recall Persona being that large either. To my knowledge the main reason Joker is in Ultimate is due to the history of Shin Megami Tensei.

Actually the main reason why Joker got in is because Persona 5 was super popular(it sold more than every other SMT and Persona game) and Sakurai liked the game. Not to say it's relation to SMT had nothing to do with it, but it's surprising sales and popularity was the deciding factor. Otherwise I doubt we would have gotten any character from Atlus at all.

 

[3BitSaurus]

I mean yeah, however, I believe he stated that he would have made Marth and Roy Japan exclusive's until he was convinced by NoA to make them playable outside of Japan anyway from what I recall.
He wouldn't have included Lucas either had he known that Mother 3 wasn't going to come outside of Japan. I believe he also avoided making Takamaru playable due to lack of Western familiarity or something.

It wouldn't be a dealbreaker, but he might be more reluctant in including those type of characters.

Then again, he was also super reluctant on realistic guns in Smash to the point he made Snake rely more on explosives and changing the Ray Gun's design only to flip the table with Bayonetta and Joker later on so what do I know... It's Sakurai..

Don't forget Ayumi Tachibana, from Famicom Detective, who was considered for Melee at one point, then dropped for that reason. Hard to tell what is or isn't "too Japanese" with Sakurai sometimes. God, Imagine the timeline where Marth and Roy never got into Melee and Fire Emblem's popularity in the west was never boosted because of this.

I don’t recall Persona being that large either. To my knowledge the main reason Joker is in Ultimate is due to the history of Shin Megami Tensei.

Ah, I didn't mean it in that way, just that DQ and Touhou are much, much larger in Japan compared to the West. Not to say that there aren't many western fans, but these are cultural phenomenons over there. It's a whole 'nother level.

And Persona is larger than it's ever been. It's arguably the most popular branch of SMT. In fact, several of the changes from P3 forward were meant to help the series sell more worldwide, as far as I know.

 

[Deleted member]

One of the biggest hurdles with Touhou is ZUN himself honestly.

From what I've been told, he'd be someone against the idea of Touhou content in something as mainstream as Smash.

 

[Idon]

One of the biggest hurdles with Touhou is ZUN himself honestly.

From what I've been told, he'd be someone against the idea of Touhou content in something as mainstream as Smash.

Just buy him some beer and you could probably convince that man to give his blessings to a first person shooter.

 

[Exiliify]

One of the biggest hurdles with Touhou is ZUN himself honestly.

From what I've been told, he'd be someone against the idea of Touhou content in something as mainstream as Smash.

Yes, I pointed this out a few times. He was like this for a while, however since they are now on main platforms, it’s likely he may allow it to be in smash. The only thing I know that zun is against is an official anime.

 

[Curious Villager]

Don't forget Ayumi Tachibana, from Famicom Detective, who was considered for Melee at one point, then dropped for that reason. Hard to tell what is or isn't "too Japanese" with Sakurai sometimes. God, Imagine the timeline where Marth and Roy never got into Melee and Fire Emblem's popularity in the west was never boosted because of this.

Yeah Sakurai seems to be pretty hesitant in general when it comes to characters that never left Japan, no matter how well received they have been in the West. Which is a bit of a shame imo.
I personally would have loved to see Takamaru, Ayumi and Lip playable someday.

At least he's not as against giving them some cameos and references I suppose.

 

[Wunderwaft]

One of the biggest hurdles with Touhou is ZUN himself honestly.

From what I've been told, he'd be someone against the idea of Touhou content in something as mainstream as Smash.

That's an understandable point. ZUN, however, did do some mainstream things that we never expected before, like releasing Touhou on Steam. So who knows? ZUN gave his blessings to many things, such as one weird crossover that involved Bandai Namco and Kirby.

 

[UserKev]

Why does it matter Cloud wasn't in a crossover before? At all? This seems way too pedantic and pointless. Smash isn't based upon some ridiculous idea that it cares about whether some characters have crossed over or not.

Um, I was referencing the (classic) Mega Man. The Mega Man that's IN Smash. My stance on Ryu is because I don't want (them) to get at my throat "Oh, your just against third party characters." Ryu is in but any RE is completely unnecessary.

SEGA was represented with Sonic, but we still got Bayonetta and Sonic. Same with Konami and Snake/Belmonts.

Phrases like who "gets a pass" or "belonged in Smash" or "not destined" are completely arbitrary criterias and by no means are real arguments against Resident Evil.

Exactly. The examples you listed all have two IP's represented in Smash. I repeat, 2! 3 is overdone.

Bruh, I don't even read your posts anymore. Your completely "all for third party". There's no convincing you.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Exactly. The examples you listed all have two IP's represented in Smash. I repeat, 2! 3 is overdone.

We already have three IPs from Sega though. Sonic, Bayonetta, and Persona.

 

[Robdelia]

Reggie's comments made it seem like the way a third-party character is added is that Nintendo approaches the third party and requests to use their character in Smash, and not the third parties approaching Nintendo for their character in. (Snake might be the exception to this but he was also the first.) So with this in mind, I think the wars between Steve and Banjo's fanbases are a bit uncalled for. It's just generating unnecessary hatred between two games, which is the last thing Sakurai and his team want to happen.
I'm saying this as someone who grew up with Banjo Kazooie and adores that game to death and has championed Banjo for Smash for a while now. If Steve gets in, it does not mean that Microsoft presented both Banjo and Steve to Sakurai and he chose Steve over him. It means that Sakurai figured Steve would be a cool character to have in Smash, and then Nintendo approached Microsoft to see if they could collaborate on him. Frankly, I'd rather Steve be in the game if it means that Microsoft is actually involved, meaning that we could eventually get Banjo. The same way that Sonic led to Bayo and Joker, and how Snake led to the Belmont Boiz.

 

[Idon]

We already have three IPs from Sega though. Sonic, Bayonetta, and Persona.

Plus Capcom has Ken as an echo and Konami has Richter as an echo so that's 3 characters for them as well.

No doubt Sakurai's not going to turn this into Nintendo vs. Capcom, but at the same time he doesn't seem to be that attentive to representing companies as compared to representing games and/or genres.