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Again, just because it wasn't the best selling doesn't mean it's a flop, are you trying to argue against actual statistics? Cause again, if Binding Blade sold as horribly as you claim it wouldn't have been in the top 50 of that best selling list
Where did I say it was a flop? I'm saying that so far smash characters trying to shill upcoming games so far hasn't had a significant increase in their sales. If the point was to promote series and make them bigger, then it clearly hasn't worked.
Lmao you really seeing pushback against a false narrative as an attack? And I asked because this topic has been done to death by whiny brats who're obsessed with Fire Emblem. The only reason this is still going on is because you won't shut up
Okay so me criticizing the idea that FE is as big as Mario means I hate it and is attacking it but you consantly insulting me is just pushback? I won't respond to you anymore because you haven't once argued anything of value to make up for the way you acted.
I think now may be a good time to leave the thread and just play Dragon Quest. Nothing has changed for the entire day, so once something actually interesting comes up I'll be back.
One thing that I'll say about FE that I'm sure most people will disagree with is that if we're getting only one promotional character in the upcoming DLC, I'd rather it not be FE. It's already gotten Roy in Melee and Corrin in Smash 4, so I'd like to see that character slot go somewhere else.
If we get two or more promotional picks, I probably wouldn't care as much.
Where did I say it was a flop? I'm saying that so far smash characters trying to shill upcoming games so far hasn't had a significant increase in their sales. If the point was to promote series and make them bigger, then it clearly hasn't worked.
Okay so me criticizing the idea that FE is as big as Mario means I hate it and is attacking it but you consantly insulting me is just pushback? I won't respond to you anymore because you haven't once argued anything of value to make up for the way you acted.
Just wanted to add a bit of context here. Mystery of the Emblem (the one that was the highest selling at the time) is actually an interesting case. When looking purely at the Japanese sales, it's actually still the top selling game in the series. Like, it's ridiculously well-regarded in Japan, and is viewed on a similar level to games like Super Mario World or A Link to the Past. Probably the best comparison is this: culturally, whereas Super Metroid is a highly significant SNES title in the west, Mystery of the Emblem was that for Japan.
Like it's considered an all-time classic there. Also I can vouch for it being a really good game.
I think now may be a good time to leave the thread and just play Dragon Quest. Nothing has changed for the entire day, so once something actually interesting comes up I'll be back.
Just wanted to add a bit of context here. Mystery of the Emblem (the one that was the highest selling at the time) is actually an interesting case. When looking purely at the Japanese sales, it's actually still the top selling game in the series. Like, it's ridiculously well-regarded in Japan, and is viewed on a similar level to games like Super Mario World or A Link to the Past. Probably the best comparison is this: culturally, whereas Super Metroid is a highly significant SNES title in the west, Mystery of the Emblem was that for Japan.
Like it's considered an all-time classic there. Also I can vouch for it being a really good game.
Wasn't it the first game that let you see how far your units could move without looking up their Mov stats and the first game with an actual battle forecast? Cause even I can't knock those quality of life changes
Joker and Hero came out after their amiibos waves in Apr & July; Banjo and Terry came out before the amiibo waves in Sept & Nov. Combine this with the upcoming patch to update the Dark Samus and Richter amiibo for SSBU and the fact that every FP came out the same month as an amiibo wave this month is increasingly good for FP5.
January 7th-8th, 14th-15th, 21st-22nd, and 28th-29th. Since we know our current patch 6.1.0 doesn't have Dark Samus/Richter functionality yet we can assume we'll be getting a patch before January 17th. This patch can be alone (6.1.1) or bundled with FP5 (7.0.0). Have we had 2 patches (minor and major) in the same month? If the amiibo patch is bundled with FP5 then that further narrows FP5 down to:
I think we did indeed have a major and minor patch in the same month. If I'm not mistaken, there was an instance of this close to PP's release and another near Terry. I can't confirm right now, but I'm probably looking at it later.
Since the amiibos come on the 17th, I think the first half of January is more likely rn, but the latter half is also possible. Either way, it's looking more and more like the Pass will finish before its original February deadline.
Wasn't it the first game that let you see how far your units could move without looking up their Mov stats and the first game with an actual battle forecast? Cause even I can't knock those quality of life changes
Well we got some SKUs that seem to confirm there'll be some new Switch games announced soon so there's that. But we were all expecting something in the first two weeks anyway.
I think we did indeed have a major and minor patch in the same month. If I'm not mistaken, there was an instance of this close to PP's release and another near Terry. I can't confirm right now, but I'm probably looking at it later.
Since the amiibos come on the 17th, I think the first half of January is more likely rn, but the latter half is also possible. Either way, it's looking more and more like the Pass will finish before its original February deadline.
First, you compared it to Pokémon before I did. Second, I'd be willing to bet that Pichu and Greninja would be the only absent characters from the Pokémon series should "Everyone is Here!" not have been a thing.
I really don't think Greninja would have been cut considering he's like one of the top five most popular Pokemon in Japan to this day and is extremely unique without the baggage and was also in Smash 4. I think we'd sooner have seen Pokemon Trainer as a whole not come back then Greninja not return.
It's ludicrous because it doesn't work no matter how you look at it.
1. FE had 6 characters before Heroes was even announced.
2. The number of downloads Heroes has is low compared to how many people downloaded other games, meaning the money comes from whales
3. If we go by mobile revenue and nothing else, FE should have less than half as many characters as Pokemon, considering Heroes made much less than Go.
4. If Mobile revenue was indicative of how big a franchise is, why is Mario, THE BIGGEST VIDEO GAME IP EVER, struggling? Is Dragalia Lost bigger than Mario?
5. Unlike sales, revenue doesn't show how many people are actually engaged with the product. Not that many people actually spent money on Heroes.
6. Doesn't explain FE's mediocre retail game sales. If it was a big, Mario tier franchise it wouldn't only have one cherrypicked example.
7. Most smash IPs don't have a mobile game, meaning the comparison is extremely unfair
1. We've been over this, specific circumstances dictated that amount and my point was to demonstrate the growth of Fire Emblem to a point thanks to the mobile game that this doesn't really matter because sales =/= number of reps.
2. Money is money to a company. Again, they're not really going to care who buys as long as it remains as incredibly profitable as it has. Any game like this benefits massively from whales including stuff like Pokemon Go which is even bigger. If 10 million people download your game, but don't spend any money on it while 1 million download and spend money on another, then you're more inclined to continue investing in the one actually making you money.
3. Again, you're pushing this notion over and over again except for the fact that the entire history of Smash Bros. contradicts this because that's just not really how Sakurai has ever operated.
4. Different brands make their money different ways. Mario hasn't really worked as a mobile game profit wise, but it does for Fire Emblem and Pokemon.
And Pokemon makes more money from other revenue sources than the games actually, so it's not any one revenue source you should look at, but all of them combined as to how they impact the value of the brand.
5. This is a repeat of point 2, but the point still stands, it doesn't really matter as long as the money is flowing. It's still their most profitable in house mobile game by over 500,000,000 dollars; which is no number for any gaming property to slouch at.
6. The sales of the games have been trending upward post Awakening with Awakening, Fates, and Three Houses all selling over 2 million units, which is damn respectable for Nintendo titles. They aren't mediocre sales and that's better than most Metroid titles, F-Zero, Golden Sun, Mother, and a variety of other IPs already in Smash for reference. Under your definition of "mediocre sales," almost nothing Nintendo releases actually qualifies outside of Mario, Pokemon, and Zelda (Hell even Kirby and Donkey Kong sometimes don't hit that many with their releases. Tropical Freeze is the best goddamn 2D platformer ever, but it's only sold 2.25 million copies). Also, an ongoing title that continues to pull in revenue over time is not a "cherrypicked example." You wouldn't call Fortnite a "cherry picked example" because it consistently pulls in revenue. Ongoing services can't be treated like traditional releases in that regard because, they're a platform unto themselves, not a game release.
7. Unfair has nothing to do in this conversation. Nintendo was able to successfully leverage Fire Emblem into an incredibly successful mobile title and turn it into a success that has been thus far unchallenged by their other internal mobile titles (Pokemon Go is Niantic and out of house, as is most of the Pokemon brand at the end of the day, so it's more complicated to deal with). F-Zero hasn't had a title since the Gamecube, but analyzing its sales data is still fair game. Just because an IP hasn't showed up on that platform yet doesn't mean you can discard the point of another IP's success. As I've said before, brands make their money all the time off of different sources. Fire Emblem just happens to make a metric **** load off of Heroes like Pokemon does off of merchandise.
You want to talk about a pipe dream, Guybrush is one of mine. Just getting that main theme in Smash would be enough but Smash needs more swashbucklers!
1. We've been over this, specific circumstances dictated that amount and my point was to demonstrate the growth of Fire Emblem to a point thanks to the mobile game that this doesn't really matter because sales =/= number of reps.
2. Money is money to a company. Again, they're not really going to care who buys as long as it remains as incredibly profitable as it has. Any game like this benefits massively from whales including stuff like Pokemon Go which is even bigger. If 10 million people download your game, but don't spend any money on it while 1 million download and spend money on another, then you're more inclined to continue investing in the one actually making you money.
It doesn't show which IP is larger. Fortnite "only" made about 2.4 billion while the Fate gacha made around 3 billion. Are we arguing that Fate is bigger than Fortnite?
Also the revenue from Heroes still doesn't come close to the Big 3s, especially when you consider the consoles bought from people wanting to play the new mario/zelda/pokemon.
3. Again, you're pushing this notion over and over again except for the fact that the entire history of Smash Bros. contradicts this because that's just not really how Sakurai has ever operated.
4. Different brands make their money different ways. Mario hasn't really worked as a mobile game profit wise, but it does for Fire Emblem and Pokemon.
And Pokemon makes more money from other revenue sources than the games actually, so it's not any one revenue source you should look at, but all of them combined as to how they impact the value of the brand.
Fire Emblems is completely disconnected from everyone elses and it shows by the comparitively mediocre sales of the retail games. I would make the same argument if the Pokemon anime was the only significant money maker for it.
5. This is a repeat of point 2, but the point still stands, it doesn't really matter as long as the money is flowing. It's still their most profitable in house mobile game by over 500,000,000 dollars; which is no number for any gaming property to slouch at.
It's money exploiting about 10,000 or so gambling addicts. Sorry I don't think that's as impressive as getting millions of people to make a one time purchase.
6. The sales of the games have been trending upward post Awakening with Awakening, Fates, and Three Houses all selling over 2 million units, which is damn respectable for Nintendo titles. They aren't mediocre sales and that's better than most Metroid titles, F-Zero, Golden Sun, Mother, and a variety of other IPs already in Smash for reference. Under your definition of "mediocre sales," almost nothing Nintendo releases actually qualifies outside of Mario, Pokemon, and Zelda (Hell even Kirby and Donkey Kong sometimes don't hit that many with their releases. Tropical Freeze is the best goddamn 2D platformer ever, but it's only sold 2.25 million copies). Also, an ongoing title that continues to pull in revenue over time is not a "cherrypicked example." You wouldn't call Fortnite a "cherry picked example" because it consistently pulls in revenue. Ongoing services can't be treated like traditional releases in that regard because, they're a platform unto themselves, not a game release.
Fire Emblems sales are mediocre compared to the other big series and the other series with comparable or less sales also don't get 7 characters. If Zelda, Pokemon, or Mario had sold what 3H did it would put Nintendo in a bad place because it would've done far below their expectations. And even in the most optimistic scenario 3H isn't going to come close to what the biggest switch games do.
The fortnite comparison doesn't work because it's just one game and it's one of the biggest because of the sheer amount of people that play it.
FE has been around for 30 years with almost 20 games and the example people always point to to prove how "big" it is is this mobile game that gets its money from a few whales. If I had to prove how big Pokemon or Mario was then I'd be able to show many examples.
7. Unfair has nothing to do in this conversation. Nintendo was able to successfully leverage Fire Emblem into an incredibly successful mobile title and turn it into a success that has been thus far unchallenged by their other internal mobile titles (Pokemon Go is Niantic and out of house, as is most of the Pokemon brand at the end of the day, so it's more complicated to deal with). F-Zero hasn't had a title since the Gamecube, but analyzing its sales data is still fair game. Just because an IP hasn't showed up on that platform yet doesn't mean you can discard the point of another IP's success. As I've said before, brands make their money all the time off of different sources. Fire Emblem just happens to make a metric **** load off of Heroes like Pokemon does off of merchandise.
It's unfair because it's something other IPs don't even have a chance to do, and even then it's in a new and volatile market where the biggest video game ip of all time didn't even do well in.
I wish people could like their characters without bringing other characters down.
I don't want any smarmy or snarky replies to this post going "well, this is the Smash fanbase, what did you expect, they'll never learn xD xD xD" cuz I know and I agree but I'm still bummed people haven't caught on.
Just...*sigh*
My top 2 most wanted Nintendo characters, Paper Mario and Ganon, have incredibly low chances of making it in. But I don't get so insecure about it that I lash out at other series with more characters, or try to knock them down a peg in the eyes of impressionable fans, or anything like that. Expending all that energy just to express some weird sense of injustice that isn't even real...just, who cares. And my 3rd most wanted character, Dixie Kong, does have a feasible, if very small, chance of making it in, so I just...support her. Without knocking ither people's wants down, sometimes even openly looking forward to then if they make it in.
It would actually be less effort to bring up your own characters than to do both that, as well bring other characters down. To those of you who think doing the latter is worthwhile: you're not being smart by being spiteful, you're just encouraging others to respond back with spite as well. But if you only do the former, it creates a more pleasant experience for everyone, and people who prefer characters from series you aren't so hot on can, in turn, be more willing to look at your wants with an open mind.
The new year, and the new decade, started off with yet another attack on Fire Emblem with the same exact terrible arguments made against it that fall apart under the same tiny amount of scrutiny as always. To those of you who think you're being unique and revolutionary by doing this: you are the exact opposite. You are unoriginal, you are tired, and, most of all, insecure. Attacking a series you don't like, instead of spending that energy raising up a series or character you love, communicates that you don't think your love of that series / character will amount to much, so you knock something else down to compensate. In short, you don't believe in yourself, and that's just sad.
That's all it boils down to: people don't believe they are enough, when they can be if they put their minds to it, but choose not to put in the effort and lash out at others instead. I'm sick of it.
I don't know.
I believe Nintendo has a history announcing/releasing something that undercuts the sales of an upcoming product.
I can't name any examples right now, but that is what I recall.
Do we really need a roughly ten-page-long debate on Fire Emblem representation in Smash, something that's already been debated to death before this point?
Some people are okay with it, others think it's unacceptable, it seems extremely unlikely that one side is going to change the other side's mind (or that it's going to make a difference in the grand scheme of things, considering that Ultimate's been out for over a year, all of the veterans returning was a big selling point, over half of the FE characters in Smash have the same basic moveset so they're easier to recreate than someone who's completely unique, and the Smash developers are going to do what they want regardless of all of this debating/discussion), and while both sides have some reasonable points, the problem is that people refuse to back down for no apparent reason.
It might be better to move on to some other topic; this is going in circles and only serves to get people upset/angry.
Personally, I think the FE debate is mostly because Fire Emblem is the series that has way, way too many characters with a similar aesthetic.
Marth, Roy, Lucina and Chrom are basically four versions of the same base moveset. Ike has a different playstyle but in the end isn't really all that different. Corrin is a disaster nobody saw coming, few asked for, and the home game itself is not very popular, but is the only exception outside of Robin.
It's the perfect definition of bloat: too many characters, who look too similar to each other, that aren't that different at the end of the day. Ike is Slow, Beefy Marth with a dashing side special to basically anybody besides his most ardent fans, Roy is Fire Marth with some different moves and pool noodles, Chrom is Roy 2, Lucina is Marth 2. It's too much, and not enough, at the exact same time. Meanwhile, the assload of unique traits that Fire Emblem has are constantly ignored, and the series is perhaps the only one that Smash inclusions regularly turn away prospective fans, mostly because they simply don't know what the series can bring since we've been regurgitated four times now.
Perhaps it was worse in Smash 4 since big names like Ridley and K. Rool were still pipe dreams that seemed unlikely.
Robin is like putting your big toe in the pool, but imagine if you started swimming with a potential Dark Mage character. Dark Mages in Fire Emblem are perhaps the most unique, and the best example of what the series has to offer next to a staff user:
Nosferatu, the HP absorption spell.
Luna, a spell that can ignore Resistance. In Smash, perhaps it could be a weak attack that ignores shields, allowing the Dark Mage to penetrate through defenses otherwise impossible.
Jormungandr, which in the enemy's hands can poison. Perhaps an effect like Piranha Plant's Poison Breath or Joker's Eiha would work.
Mire, a siege tome that hits very far away. Perhaps it could be a super long range attack with good power, that is balanced by needing great precision, something like a disjoint version of Ridley's Skewer that's not as risky nor rewarding.
Waste, a brave tome that hits twice. The perfect
Hel, a powerful tome that reduces your HP to one. This could be represented as an almost impossible to hit sweetspot with abundant reward, such as a close range version of Ridley's Skewer that needs that is basically reserved for the ultimate reads.
Balberith, a tome that increases Strength by 3. Perhaps it could be used for pummeling during a grab, in addition to being cast for throws?
Quake Σ, which hits everybody. A huge shockwave attack, like a down smash, would be perfect.
If I had to pick a Dark Mage, Lyon from Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones would be the best possible choice, though he's using magic outside his game (his Final Smash would probably be Naglfar, his personal tome). Tharja might be more popular, but she's also got Mai syndrome, so Lyon would be more fitting. It would also add an antagonist character to the roster for FE.
And then there's staff users. For a staff using pick, my nomination would probably be... hm. Staff users have never been particularly prominent characters. Perhaps Elincia (Path of Radiance/Radiant Dawn Princess/Queen Crimea alts, like Ike) using staves for her specials while using Amiti for her normals could work? Though whether or not she'd be mounted is another question.
The big thing about Staves is healing. So, of course, a staff user would be designed around being an ally for team battles moreso than not, albeit they're more than capable of putting in offensive work here for singles. Heal, Mend, Recover are archetypes of this: perhaps a charge move where you go from each in an ascending order could provide a new angle.
Sleep should be obvious: it puts people to sleep.
Silence would put the opponent under silence, preventing them from using their special moves or taunting. Voice clips are also disabled.
Berserk would have the attack power increased, but prevent them from stopping, shielding, rolling or dodging.
Physic could heal from a very, very long distance. Closer you are, better it is. Team player, baby!
Rewarp is a simple teleport up special, nothing fancy.
Rescue can pull a unit to the user. So here, it could be a command grab that is a boon for allies by helping them recover.
Enfeeble makes your target weaker. It could reduce stats in a similar manner to Spirits for a short time.
Fire Emblem magicians, in particular, have expansive potential that I think is extremely unexplored. The other weapons don't see use, Corrin mostly uses their sword over the whole Dragon thing outside of a few moves and specials, and I think trying to incorporate mounted units could be a hassle. But magic in particular screams a level of uniqueness on a mechanical level that swords... just can't match up to.
I'd been working on this post for a while, but I wanted to give my two cents since IDK when the next good opportunity to pitch these ideas would be. Though, I must admit, a potential mage character isn't exclusive to FE at all, I just think there's a hidden gem that I wanted to share.
The new year, and the new decade, started off with yet another attack on Fire Emblem with the same exact terrible arguments made against it that fall apart under the same tiny amount of scrutiny as always.
Do you really see "this series is already overrepresented so they should give another series a character" an attack on FE?
For arguments that "fall apart under the same tiny amount of scrutiny" all of you have had way too hard a time of actually debunking them. Constantly shouting that FE is big enough while being big and popular doesn't matter at the same time.
Yeah, I'm dropping this because I've already run around in circles enough for one day. I'm not even a huge Three Houses supporter, but I wouldn't complain if we got another solid Fire Emblem character, and if I'm choosing this option, Edelgard is the clear winner for me. It would almost be a shame to go with Byleth again despite how much sense it makes given I kind of find the Avatars the least interesting, but at least a whip sword, time abilities, and male Byleth's look are all pretty solid traits.
I know I've been one to reject first party options a lot given my preference for third parties at this point, but if I had to guess the 5 most likely ones in the spirit of changing the conversation, it would be these:
Three Houses Rep - Not really sure if I'd say there's a more specific front runner, but it's been a successful title with 4 amazing main options that many people consider one of 2019's best games and one of the Switch games of the year.
Officer/Akira Howard - Astral Chain has tons of possibilities with the different Legions and its one of the few modern Nintendo IPs to not have any representation at all in the game. It doesn't have to, but I think it's got a chance if Nintendo wants to push it further.
Bandanna Dee - Kirby continues to be a pretty successful and lucrative IP for Nintendo, and since DK and Metroid fans were finally satisfied with new characters Ultimate, Kirby is sort of the fan base left standing with a clear cut "most wanted" in Bandanna Dee. Plenty of moveset potential and while he's a Spirit, I don't think that will be much of an issue going into the next Wave of DLC.
Rex/Pyra - Sort of in a weird place given the Rex Mii costume, but if we don't get KOS-MOS, they still make a lot of sense since Xenoblade Chronicles continues to be on the up and up and people wanting another Xenoblade character is probably only to get stronger as Nintendo turns the brand into a power house of JRPGs.
Dixie Kong - She's still the rare classic Nintendo all-star missing from Smash and she can be an easy semi-clone of Diddy Kong if they're looking for another individual DLC type character. There's definitely still a fan outcry for her, though not nearly as strong of one as I expected post King K. Rool (which I guess people flocked to Banjo & Kazooie and then kind of fell off afterwards).
If Assist Trophies do get upgrades, Waluigi goes straight to the top as well (Which is kind of sad as I've said before, but oh well). I'll give a shoutout to Captain Toad as well since he seems like one that could still surprise us, but Toad is still so heavily integrated into Peach and Daisy that I'm not sure how Sakurai feels about him.
What are your top five most likely first party options, just to break up the FE discussion (as much as possible at least) and also to extend an olive branch to the first party supporters who might feel too left out from our usually more third party centric discussions..
Seeing that new Gamestop list, here are my hopes for a January Direct:
>Reveal of four DQ Heroes amiibo
>New 2D Metroid/Prime Trilogy
>First trailer of the Dragon Quest: Adventures Of Dai game adaptation
>Showcase of the free UA3 update featuring Black Bolt, Medusa and the leaked costumes (F4 won’t happen until Spring so don’t count on that yet)
>LEGO Marvel 1 port
>Western localization of Famicom Detective Club Switch
>New trailer for LEGO Star Wars: The Skywalker Saga
>Master Chief Collection Switch
>Rare Replay
>KoF XIV
