Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Will]

I swear if Sakurai brought back tripping Smash Ultimate we'll have many people defend it to the death and say that it makes the fighting more interesting.

just because a majority disagrees with you doesn't make us all crazy people

tripping is universally hated

 

[Diddy Kong]

Tripping was a bad idea. However, tripping could be buffed so that Diddy gets indirect buffs on Banana. That'd be dope.

Diddy could really use some buffs though. So could Mewtwo. These characters are held back by stupid nerfs that shouldn't have happened in the first place.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Tripping was a bad idea. However, tripping could be buffed so that Diddy gets indirect buffs on Banana. That'd be dope.

Diddy could really use some buffs though. So could Mewtwo. These characters are held back by stupid nerfs that shouldn't have happened in the first place.

Mewtwo's tail nerf is literally the only thing holding him back cause while the tail hurtbox hurts like hell, MKLeo's actually been making him work iirc

 

[wynn728]

How was this the worst time to put Plant in? Sakurai literally went out of his way to bring everyone back so no one got left behind and added a whole bunch of newcomers specifically from fan requests. This was literally the best point for Sakurai to go, "Hey, I've got a cool idea that I want to do and I've made a lot of people really happy, so I'm going to do it." It's like no one wants to cut Sakurai a break for deciding to make something he liked that was unconventionally popular in a game where he basically devoted the entire rest of it to the fans. People just want Sakurai to be a request factory at this point it seems with no originality or unique decision making (despite the fact that very same mindset is what got us Smash in its current form).

I'm not saying people can't criticize Sakurai or the decisions, but the amount of vitriol I see for Plant over a year after his reveal when so much of Smash has been built for the fans in a complete rejection of every single modern fighting game convention in a package that contains 3-4 times the number of characters in the base roster alongside just absolute loads of content that in of itself was working to correct the shortcomings of Smash 4, is just absolutely ridiculous. Especially when the premise of that attack is often, "no one cared about Plant" before like that's somehow supposed to validate criticism when "nobody cared before" is exactly the point of the character and why some people do like Plant now. If it had been an incredibly niche option like Captain Rainbow, there would have still been vitriol since "barely anyone asked for this."

There's not even a guarantee cutting Plant would have resulted in another fighter for crying out loud. Maybe we just would have had Stage Builder at launch, or Home Run Contest, or maybe Sakurai would have brought back another stage, etc. Like I've said, best case scenario, we get another unique fighter that gets to be the martyr for other fan bases everywhere (or just turns Incineroar back into the primary heel).



The problem is that Piranha Plant is just a green apple to your preferred red apples. It's just not your preference, but other people like them. This is the fundamental flaw with so many people's attacks on Piranha Plant. It's just not your preference, and that's fine, but you have to admit it wasn't made for you.

And I know well that the appeal of Smash Bros. is playing the game, hence why I play with all kinds of items and assist trophies on and have a blast because I'm enough of an adult to realize that it's about having fun with all kinds of crazy crossover elements and characters, and not mechanically staring at a character screen looking for literal reasons to get mad at 1/81 of the roster because it wasn't personally for me. I go, hey, there's Waluigi! There's Bomberman! Etc. And I enjoy them for their appearance while I play as Piranha Plant or whoever else.

Hell yeah cutting Piranha Plant would guarentee a different character. Piranha Plant took just as much time to make as any other character, so all that time could've gone to a different character to make.

Also Piranha Plant just being in isn't the main problem, the main problem of Piranha Plant is what it says about other characters and their future. People keep going on saying anyone is possible, but we know that is so not the case. We know that Bomberman and the others are all part of the loser gang who lost to a generic enemy in terms of importance. Say all we want but we know that many fan requested characters don't have a future in Smash Bros besides being NPCs. Isaac has no future, Skull Kid has no future, Waluigi has no future, many fan favorite have no future. This is Smash Bros ULTIMATE, we been getting characters that were fulfilling so many requests, telling use that character like Ridley weren't impossible, giving hope that just maybe these guys have a chance. But if fan demand support lost out to a generic enemy that no one ask for when there are only 7 newcomers for the base roster then that's the indicator that tells us how insignificant these fan favorite characters really are. These are characters that are never going to get in now, they're the bottom of the barrel. People aren't happy being shown how much of a terrible choice Sakurai really thinks of these characters if he rather have picked a generic enemy and stop adding Nintendo character.

But that's something you just choose not to understand.

 

[UserKev]

I can

Actually, I have an idea. Name any spirits you want to see promoted, the rules are 1 per franchise with playable characters and only 5 from franchises without characters

- Wart
- Cranky Kong
- Ghirahim
- Revamped Dark Samus
- Doc Louis
- Magnus
- Lyn
- Pokey
- Samurai Goroh
- Adeleine
- Slippy Toad
- Shy Guy
- Mimikyu
- Alph
- Big Boss
- Knuckles
- Mr. Resetii
- Captain Syrup
- Cutman
- Pyra/Mythra
- Rodin
- Lightning
- Octoling
- Kyon
Twintelle
Scorpion
Crash Bandicoot
Dragonborn
Sora

 

[Diddy Kong]

Mewtwo's tail nerf is literally the only thing holding him back cause while the tail hurtbox hurts like hell, MKLeo's actually been making him work iirc

MKLeo and Tweek make every character work. And Mewtwo is great at playing aggressive, but this more offensive engine and the tail hurtbox hurt hurt him a lot. There's probably a lot of potential with Mewtwo left unchecked, but it's a huge contrast how he is in Ultimate compared to Smash 4 where the evasive style of Mewtwo worked great, because he wouldn't get hit all that much.

Diddy however has nerfs in just about anything and is only stuck together because his overall kit is just better than average. He's far too easy to combo, easy to edgeguard, bad recovery and air speed, and he struggles to kill outside of Banana reads and D Tilt U Smash combos. Or extreme hard reads with Rocket Barrel explosions.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

- Wart
- Cranky Kong
- Ghirahim
- Revamped Dark Samus
- Doc Louis
- Magnus
- Lyn
- Pokey
- Samurai Goroh
- Adeleine
- Slippy Toad
- Shy Guy
- Mimikyu
- Alph
- Big Boss
- Knuckles
- Mr. Resetii
- Captain Syrup
- Cutman
- Pyra/Mythra
- Rodin
- Lightning
- Octoling
- Kyon
Twintelle
Scorpion
Crash Bandicoot
Dragonborn
Sora

... Lightning, Scorpion, Crash, Dragonborn and Sora don’t have Spirits in Smash

 

[Flyboy]

Oh my God Sakurai didn't say the character itself was "mysterious and not-well-known" he literally said that no one not working on the game knows who fighter 5 is because he hasn't ****ing revealed it yet

Please stop spreading misinformation.

 

[Gentlepanda]

not a great day for KOS-MOS

This actually progressed to the remaster's plan, but failed in a profitable market analysis.
Sorry guys, This plan will be difficult to resurface... https://t.co/0CRJJDPl5Z

— Katsuhiro Harada (@Harada_TEKKEN) December 26, 2019

straight from harada, namco doesn't view xenosaga as profitable and doesn't seem interested in revisiting it

 

[Flyboy]

not a great day for KOS-MOS

This actually progressed to the remaster's plan, but failed in a profitable market analysis.
Sorry guys, This plan will be difficult to resurface... https://t.co/0CRJJDPl5Z

— Katsuhiro Harada (@Harada_TEKKEN) December 26, 2019

straight from harada, namco doesn't view xenosaga as profitable and doesn't seem interested in revisiting it

Was just about to post this. Really a shame, especially considering Harada is one of the series' biggest cheerleaders and has always been super transparent about it and supportive of all the petitions we've made and stuff. Heartbreaking, even if it was always a long shot.

 

[UserKev]

... Lightning, Scorpion, Crash, Dragonborn and Sora don’t have Spirits in Smash

I probably read it wrong then. ARMS doesn't have a playable character in Smash and I really want Scorpion, Dragonborn.

 

[Night Gale]

It's a good thing promoting that s*** in something like Super Smash would make it more marketable.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

MKLeo and Tweek make every character work. And Mewtwo is great at playing aggressive, but this more offensive engine and the tail hurtbox hurt hurt him a lot. There's probably a lot of potential with Mewtwo left unchecked, but it's a huge contrast how he is in Ultimate compared to Smash 4 where the evasive style of Mewtwo worked great, because he wouldn't get hit all that much.

Diddy however has nerfs in just about anything and is only stuck together because his overall kit is just better than average. He's far too easy to combo, easy to edgeguard, bad recovery and air speed, and he struggles to kill outside of Banana reads and D Tilt U Smash combos. Or extreme hard reads with Rocket Barrel explosions.

First of all Tweek dropped his flashly new secondary after like 2 weeks, MKLeo was actively praising Mewtwo a lot, which is a tad different.

Second, you misunderstand, I too want to get Mewtwo buffed more to absolutely ruin everyone's lives with

 

[osby]

Hell yeah cutting Piranha Plant would guarentee a different character. Piranha Plant took just as much time to make as any other character, so all that time could've gone to a different character to make.

Also Piranha Plant just being in isn't the main problem, the main problem of Piranha Plant is what it says about other characters and their future. People keep going on saying anyone is possible, but we know that is so not the case. We know that Bomberman and the others are all part of the loser gang who lost to a generic enemy in terms of importance. Say all we want but we know that many fan requested characters don't have a future in Smash Bros besides being NPCs. Isaac has no future, Skull Kid has no future, Waluigi has no future, many fan favorite have no future. This is Smash Bros ULTIMATE, we been getting characters that were fulfilling so many requests, telling use that character like Ridley weren't impossible, giving hope that just maybe these guys have a chance. But if fan demand support lost out to a generic enemy that no one ask for when there are only 7 newcomers for the base roster then that's the indicator that tells us how insignificant these fan favorite characters really are. These are characters that are never going to get in now, they're the bottom of the barrel. People aren't happy being shown how much of a terrible choice Sakurai really thinks of these characters if he rather have picked a generic enemy and stop adding Nintendo character.

But that's something you just choose not to understand.

Nah, you just choose to not understand a character not being playable doesn't mean Sakurai hates them and they'll never be playable.

 

[Diddy Kong]

First of all Tweek dropped his flashly new secondary after like 2 weeks, MKLeo was actively praising Mewtwo a lot, which is a tad different.

Second, you misunderstand, I too want to get Mewtwo buffed more to absolutely ruin everyone's lives with

I'm sure MKLeo is gonna make Mewtwo work because he can pressure very well with his aggressive style. So MKLeo's Mewtwo just won't get hit.

Not everybody is able to make it work. But am certain HE can. What secondary did MKLeo drop though?

Tweek also has a great Diddy. Would really wanna see more of Tweek's Diddy.

 

[Schnee117]

Some people really need to just log off and do literally anything else.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I'm sure MKLeo is gonna make Mewtwo work because he can pressure very well with his aggressive style. So MKLeo's Mewtwo just won't get hit.

Not everybody is able to make it work. But am certain HE can. What secondary did MKLeo drop though?

Tweek also has a great Diddy. Would really wanna see more of Tweek's Diddy.

I meant Tweek, he played Banjo and dropped him after a week or two, especially funny to me as that major ESAM won would have had Tweek as the winner had Tweek not made a 0 IQ play and try to grab Pikachu during an animation in which he shifts his hurtbox a lot on Lylat. Say what you want about Lylat but that L was on tweek being a dumbass

 

[BZL8]

Giant oof for Kos-Mos and Xenosaga.

 

[Deleted member]

I’m not surprised by this fact. For those who don’t know Harada (Namco executive who also works on Tekken) said that the Xenosaga remaster wasn’t possible because the company didn’t see the profit from it after an analysis.

 

[Megadoomer]

I can
View attachment 254499


Actually, I have an idea. Name any spirits you want to see promoted, the rules are 1 per franchise with playable characters and only 5 from franchises without characters

I'll leave out any where I can't think of a character that I'd want (or cases like Game & Watch, where there are seemingly no other options), along with Assist Trophies and Bosses. (if they appear on a stage but can't be interacted with, they're fair game)

- Gruntilda (I was happy to see Mumbo Jumbo playable back in Tooie, but Grunty would be more interesting)
- Jeanne (though Rodin is a VERY close second)
- Black Shadow (I don't know much about F-Zero, but I think he'd be fun to play as)
- Dixie Kong (she seems like the most important DK character who's not in the game - it's either her or Cranky)
- Tricky (Krystal's ruled out, and I feel like Tricky would be a more unique character than Peppy or Slippy)
- Slime (aside from being the series' mascot, I'd think it would be an interesting challenge to make a playable character who has no limbs - some Smash fangames have done that with Gooey from Kirby)
- Octoling Girl and Boy (as alternate costumes of each other, not as an Ice Climbers duo)
- Makoto Nijima (out of the Phantom Thieves, she seems like the best-suited for a fighting game)
- Bandanna Waddle Dee (he's been treated like a core member of the cast since Return to Dream Land on the Wii)
- Mipha (we're long overdue for a Zelda character who isn't one of the Triforce users - while I never got too deep into the backstories of the Champions when I played through Breath of the Wild, looking at their designs, I was immediately drawn to Mipha or Daruk for the idea of them as playable Smash characters. Shame that Midna and Skull Kid are assist trophies)
- Mr. Sandman (given how he's portrayed in his rematch in Punch-Out for the Wii, he's about as close as we can get to Mike Tyson in Smash)
- Geno (I've been supporting Geno since Brawl)
- Anna (we need something other than Sword Lords for Fire Emblem characters, with Robin being the big exception. Plus, to my knowledge, Anna's been in every Fire Emblem game, and she's pretty versatile in terms of the weapons that she can use, from the few cases where I've seen her playable)
- Sigma (Zero and Wily are assist trophies, X/Bass/Proto Man are in a gray area for me since they're in Mega Man's final smash, and while I could go with the Mega Man Zero version of Zero, that feels like cheating)
- Masked Man (would have went with Porky, but weirdly, he doesn't have a spirit unless you count the Absolutely Safe Capsule)
- Plasm Wraith (given that it's liquid, it could easily be shrunk down without any problems, and it's got a really versatile set of moves)
- Tyranitar (I'll be honest - I haven't followed Pokemon closely since Gen. 3, though I've been meaning to play through Pokemon Y, so this pick is a little random. I would have went with Genesect for its design, but then I remembered that it's a Pokeball summon)
- Medusa (I haven't gotten to the end of Kid Icarus Uprising, so I'm not sure how Hades fights - I was stuck on a spaceship, from what I remember. Plus, Medusa's been around for longer)
- Chun-Li (if Street Fighter got a third character, I'd find it hard to believe if it was anyone else. Maybe Akuma)
- Elma (from what I've played of Xenoblade Chronicles 2, I'm not crazy about Rex)
- Soma Cruz (Aria of Sorrow and Symphony of the Night were the two Castlevania games that I've enjoyed so far, and Alucard's already an assist trophy)
- Raiden (though Phantom Pain-era Big Boss could be interesting)
- Dr. Eggman (he's probably one of the most recurring bosses in video games as a whole, and I'd love to see what they could do with his moveset)
- GEESE (TOO EASY!)
- Tortimer (time for him to show off his platforming skills from Super Tortimer!)
- Captain Syrup (while her boss fights in Wario Land 1 and 2 were largely hands-off, I think she'd make for an interesting character)
Spirits from series without playable characters:
-Wonder Red
-Alexandra Roivas
-Rayman
-Andy (Advance Wars)
-Leon S. Kennedy

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Oof I forgot Rising!Raiden, he’d be so badass especially if he comes with Rules Of Nature

too bad that game will never get a sequel...

 

[Night Gale]

I don't doubt Katsuhiro Harada's words about Xenosaga but keep in mind that it's f***ing Katsuhiro Harada.

Ganryu’s POKER？

https://t.co/K4mkZdEYvJ

— Katsuhiro Harada (@Harada_TEKKEN) December 26, 2019

Some people really need to just log off and do literally anything else.

NO YOU!

Seriously though it's called multitasking, bish.

 

[Garteam]

not a great day for KOS-MOS

This actually progressed to the remaster's plan, but failed in a profitable market analysis.
Sorry guys, This plan will be difficult to resurface... https://t.co/0CRJJDPl5Z

— Katsuhiro Harada (@Harada_TEKKEN) December 26, 2019

straight from harada, namco doesn't view xenosaga as profitable and doesn't seem interested in revisiting it

On the one hand, Mega Man and Simon got in when their series were effectively dead...

On the other hand, both Capcom and Konami never lost interest in those respective franchises and were looking for ways to bring them back, which doesn't look like the case for Xenosaga. Definitely not good for KOS-MOS.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

On the one hand, Mega Man and Simon got in when their series were effectively dead...

On the other hand, both Capcom and Konami never lost interest in those respective franchises and were looking for ways to bring them back, which doesn't look like the case for Xenosaga. Definitely not good for KOS-MOS.

Mega Man 10 was out in 2010, which was 2 years before Smash 4 started development and CastleVania had the same **** with Lords of Shadow 2 being 2 years before Ultimate's development 2 years doesn't mean dead

 

[Dinoman96]

Also on the other hand, Mega Man and Simon were also much more popular requested characters and also come from much bigger and influential series.

I'm sorry, but I kinda consider KOS-MOS, as well as Shantae and Reimu to be sort of the "Unholy trinity of Smash community bubble picks".

 

[GoodGrief741]

not a great day for KOS-MOS

This actually progressed to the remaster's plan, but failed in a profitable market analysis.
Sorry guys, This plan will be difficult to resurface... https://t.co/0CRJJDPl5Z

— Katsuhiro Harada (@Harada_TEKKEN) December 26, 2019

straight from harada, namco doesn't view xenosaga as profitable and doesn't seem interested in revisiting it

I, for one, am shocked that the series previously dubbed "a commercial failure" isn't seen as financially viable.

 

[Sari]

Even before Harada's tweet, I honestly couldn't see KOS-MOS happening. Tekken and Tales are both gigantic hurdles when it comes to another Namco character and that's if we'd be getting another Namco character at all.

On the topic of Namco, I still think people are seriously sleeping on Tekken.

 

[Deleted member]

Also on the other hand, Mega Man and Simon were also much more popular requested characters and also come from much bigger and influential series.

I'm sorry, but I kinda consider KOS-MOS, as well as Shantae and Reimu to be sort of the "Unholy trinity of Smash community bubble picks".

I dont she Shantae unholy

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Hope everyone had/is having a nice holidays.

Anything happen while I was away? New info in the last few days or have things been slow?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

...I actually liked random tripping. Somehow it never screws me over and I dodge a lot of attacks. But hey, it's luck, you know?

Albeit, it's mostly unpopular, so it being gone doesn't bother me one bit.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Hell yeah cutting Piranha Plant would guarentee a different character. Piranha Plant took just as much time to make as any other character, so all that time could've gone to a different character to make.

Also Piranha Plant just being in isn't the main problem, the main problem of Piranha Plant is what it says about other characters and their future. People keep going on saying anyone is possible, but we know that is so not the case. We know that Bomberman and the others are all part of the loser gang who lost to a generic enemy in terms of importance. Say all we want but we know that many fan requested characters don't have a future in Smash Bros besides being NPCs. Isaac has no future, Skull Kid has no future, Waluigi has no future, many fan favorite have no future. This is Smash Bros ULTIMATE, we been getting characters that were fulfilling so many requests, telling use that character like Ridley weren't impossible, giving hope that just maybe these guys have a chance. But if fan demand support lost out to a generic enemy that no one ask for when there are only 7 newcomers for the base roster then that's the indicator that tells us how insignificant these fan favorite characters really are. These are characters that are never going to get in now, they're the bottom of the barrel. People aren't happy being shown how much of a terrible choice Sakurai really thinks of these characters if he rather have picked a generic enemy and stop adding Nintendo character.

But that's something you just choose not to understand.

Just because a character gets in before a different one doesn't mean that one is more "important" across the board. Bayonetta is not more important than Castlevania, Dragon Quest, Persona, etc. just because she got in before them. Nor is Piranha Plant better than any number of possible fighters for getting in before them. Every character is made with a purpose and specifically to fit that purpose, and thus they are "more important in the moment" but not "more important (full stop)." Different characters fill different niches and always will, and not all characters will fit nicely into the same niche as another. Sakurai has stated that he has made characters with a certain ideology in mind before (Retro, Pokemon, etc.) and he will likely continue to do this as he makes Smash. You're the one who seems incapable of understanding one thing getting in does not mean that it's inherently worse or better, it just fits the intention better.

And no, you can't actually prove where those resources would have went if Piranha Plant wasn't made. Sakurai could have just as easily not decided on another fighter and developed other stuff for the game. You're inherently using a false premise to continue you're complaining. It's an unfounded assumption that If A does not happen, then B would have, when options C - Z are all perfectly valid possibilities too.

I'm sorry you built up some idea of "ULTIMATE" in your head and that not everything went according to your internal plan. That's on you for creating your own expectations and own ultimatums for character inclusions. You can criticize the decisions all you want, but you have to take ownership of your own expectations.

 

[Deleted member]

We know that Bomberman and the others are all part of the loser gang who lost to a generic enemy in terms of importance.

bowser jr was added before hero meaning sakurai thinks bowser jr is more important than the entirety of the dragon quest series

 

[Lamperouge]

I was more interested in the Xenosaga trilogy being remastered than I was for KOS-MOS' inclusion in Smash, so it's pretty disappointing (although not surprising) that Namco doesn't see much profit from it.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

To be fair, Piranha Plant's a hell of a lot better of a choice than R.O.B. or Wii Fit Trainer.

R.O.B. played a part in saving the NES and the video game industry as a whole and was also playable in the newest and best selling Mario Kart game at the time of Brawl's release. Wii Fit Trainer played a role in the casual Wii series which was one of Nintendo's best selling series, with Wii Fit being one of the 8th best selling games of all time as well.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Even before Harada's tweet, I honestly couldn't see KOS-MOS happening. Tekken and Tales are both gigantic hurdles when it comes to another Namco character and that's if we'd be getting another Namco character at all.

On the topic of Namco, I still think people are seriously sleeping on Tekken.

Agreed - though I'd add Souls as a dark horse. I would say Soulcalibur too, but I don't really see any of the possible SC reps making it before Tekken.

Hopefully we'll have our answers in a few weeks, but... I gotta say, this situation with Xenosaga kinda reminds me of the one with Baten Kaitos. That's also another game I gotta play someday.

 

[BZocky]

bowser jr was added before hero meaning sakurai thinks bowser jr is more important than the entirety of the dragon quest series

Come to me when Dragon Quest has had half the impact in the RPG scene as Bowser Jr.

 

[Deleted member]

I honestly can’t choose any character to cut in Smash.

No matter how hard I try to choose anyone to cut, I keep having this thought in my mind of not doing so.

 

[CureParfait]

Hope everyone had/is having a nice holidays.

Anything happen while I was away? New info in the last few days or have things been slow?

It's been pretty slow lately, kind of wish we got at least a hint towards fighter 5

 

[Deleted member]

Come to me when Dragon Quest has had half the impact in the RPG scene as Bowser Jr.
View attachment 254598

Too bad AlphaDream shut down. I was really looking forward to Mario & Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story + Bowser Jr's Journey S: Echoes of an Elusive Age - Definitive Edition.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Agreed - though I'd add Souls as a dark horse. I would say Soulcalibur too, but I don't really see any of the possible SC reps making it before Tekken.

Hopefully we'll have our answers in a few weeks, but... I gotta say, this situation with Xenosaga kinda reminds me of the one with Baten Kaitos. That's also another game I gotta play someday.

Tfw Baten Kaitos has a music track in Smash but no Spirits... you’d think they’d at least include Spirits. Same for Culdcept, music track, no Spirits