Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Sure, I can understand the rationale behind it, but I doubt that Sakurai still believes everyone is "super happy" with Assist Trophies seeing the reaction to Waluigi, Shadow, and Isaac's reveals. (We actually got his thoughts on the reactions to Everyone is here and how people were excited for the cut veterans because they were cut, so he probably saw the reactions to the Final November Direct and the original groans for Waluigi too). It's just something that's currently out of his power, but I'm pretty sure that it's more out of exhaustion of resources rather than genuinely believing he's satisfied those fans like Wynn worded it.

How this apply for base game, though? Sakurai has not proven to change his core mind during a single game, which is actually a pattern and precedent. Why would he suddenly change his mind? He's aware not everyone is happy, but he wasn't back then. He could just as well stick with his core plan and do it differently next game. It's partly how Ridley got in too. It's possible he never intended Waluigi to be playable. It's also noticeable, in the Ridley case, that he acted a lot closer to a playable character in how he fights in Smash 4 than his one-off appearance in Brawl. Even the interview doesn't really make it clear if Ridley was attempted to be playable(likely not) but dismissed due to his own vision, or just given a Giga Bowser-like moveset because he thought it'd be cool. We know he considered him, at least.

Also, I doubt it's "exhaustion of resources" here exactly. He can only do so much in a game, and has to pick and choose who to become playable. It's basically priority, and those of lower priority have different roles. Those roles are still pretty neat ones and many are chosen still to please the fans. Keep in mind AT's are also based upon popular characters who can't make the cut(Waluigi is one of those). AT's weren't some last second decision. He even cut some as well, for whatever reason(Tingle's was possibly due to returning Great Bay, and it could also be because the latest one used is the MM one in Hyrule Warriors. His decisions are sometimes based upon recency as well. That's probably the reason for Luminary being Hero's face at this point. Though that could be partially on SE too? He started with Luminary and Erdrick from what we found out, but it's not clear on anything other than the actual decision for the face and the core content to be Luminary and XI stuff).

And yeah, the wording is bad. No denying that. I'm not a fan of absolute statements, if it helps. As I said, I get where he's coming from if you remove the absolute part. It makes a lot of sense. He's sticking with his base game decisions(he is stubborn after all). Something to keep in mind is that him acknowledging how much a fan favorite is doesn't mean he's going to act on it in the same game. Another thing one has to keep in mind if he makes one AT playable this game, he's going to get a crapload of requests for others. So that's a thought to take into account. He made it clear for people to stop asking him for characters some time back, as DLC was already chosen(though I don't think he meant post-pass, but who knows). He only has one hard rule, but he might stick with everything the way he originally wants it to as well. Some developers do that. All I can say is the possibility exists because Sakurai hasn't personally came out and shut it down. He shuts down a lot of stuff before, so him not saying anything is relevant to keep in mind. Not that it means people should expect anything to change either, but it's worth considering at the very least, you know?

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

I ain’t holding my breath, but If we do get promotions for assists/spirits, I want Yarn Poochy as a character. Who can say no to that face?!

 

[CroonerMike]

I’ll just wait until an assist or spirit gets promoted and then wait for wy- I mean everyone on smashboards to say “it was quite obvious that they were gonna get promoted!” *tips fedora* “plebs”.-smashboards users 2020.

 

[Wigglerman]

Merry Krimas everybody. January is right around the corner and, hopefully, a direct as well. Enjoy your holiday and lets get hype for the coming year of Smash.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I ain’t holding my breath, but If we do get promotions for assists/spirits, I want Yarn Poochy as a character. Who can say no to that face?!
View attachment 254498

I can

Actually, I have an idea. Name any spirits you want to see promoted, the rules are 1 per franchise with playable characters and only 5 from franchises without characters

 

[Mushroomguy12]

I can
View attachment 254499


Actually, I have an idea. Name any spirits you want to see promoted, the rules are 1 per franchise with playable characters and only 5 from franchises without characters

Dixie Kong, Impa, Chun-Li, Rex & Pyra/Mythra or Elma or Mecha-Fiora, Geno, Shantae, Octoling

 

[Will]

Name any spirits you want to see promoted

idk black shadow?

 

[Guynamednelson]

I sincerely doubt that. (Waluigi's not even close to my most wanted btw).

A better example would be Dark Samus. The ballot apparently had plenty of entries for her despite being an AT and the belief that Metroid fans were mainly focused on Ridley.

I ain’t holding my breath, but If we do get promotions for assists/spirits, I want Yarn Poochy as a character. Who can say no to that face?!
View attachment 254498

There were actually people who thought regular Poochy's lack of spirit meant he was a lock. Who knows what the hell would happen if Yarn Poochy got in instead.

 

[nessdeltarune00]

GOOOOOOD MOOOOOOOORNING SMASHBOARDS! Just wanted to let you all know that we are one day closer to the confirmation of Klutzy (THE Klutzy from THE Club Penguin) in Smash Ultimate! Make sure to save your tears for the upcoming fighters pass when Klutzy walks into the spotlight!


>”B-BUT MUH EDELGUARD
MUH GENERIC SWORD WIELDING FE REP!!!!”


Yikes! That is quite the assumption to make! Aren’t you forgetting that all of the DLC fighters so far have been third party? And lets not forget what Reggie said about characters “you won’t anticipate”! Do you think Edelguard or any other FE rep would fit this category? No! Only the BASED Klutzy would fit this bill! Feel free to continue to deny it, that will make the tears of disappointment for Klutzy’s inevitable confirmation all the much sweeter!

 

[3BitSaurus]

im just saying if he had to promote AT in a DLC season you know it'd be waluigi

shadow and isaac stans tear me limb from limb if you must but im spitting fax

As someone who'd love Shadow, I agree with this.

Shadow is... an interesting case. On one hand, you'd think he would be a relatively easy Echo... but I think the problem is the way Sonic plays in Smash is completely different from how most of us assume Shadow should play like.

This is just a hypothesis, but my guess is that Sakurai and team didn't want to rework Sonic, but at the same time they strive for some level of fidelity to the source material, and Shadow doesn't really fit into Sonic's current moveset, so he just... didn't get in.

 

[Guynamednelson]

EDELGUARD
MUH GENERIC SWORD WIELDING

Do you even know why people wanted Edelgard pre-TH's release? Seems like you're becoming a bit insane from the idea that people want characters to play as, not just more copyrights on the title screen.

relatively easy Echo

I bet Sega increased the difficulty. What shades of red would they allow for Shadow's alts?

 

[BernkastelWitch]

The only way I can see a Three Houses rep get into Smash right now is if they get the Piranha Plant treatment: A bonus character that doesn't affect the current lineup. Admittedly I would love Edelgard to be in Smash over Byleth for a variety of reasons but that is the only way I can imagine how Three Houses will get a new character.

At least this is depending how Post-Pass goes.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Merry Christmas everybody

Has anything happened while I was gone?

 

[Guynamednelson]

Merry Christmas everybody

Has anything happened while I was gone?

More people fantasizing about a promoted AT/spirit resulting in Nintendo losing trillions.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

As someone who'd love Shadow, I agree with this.

Shadow is... an interesting case. On one hand, you'd think he would be a relatively easy Echo... but I think the problem is the way Sonic plays in Smash is completely different from how most of us assume Shadow should play like.

This is just a hypothesis, but my guess is that Sakurai and team didn't want to rework Sonic, but at the same time they strive for some level of fidelity to the source material, and Shadow doesn't really fit into Sonic's current moveset, so he just... didn't get in.

Considering all of our Sega characters are literally from different franchises, Sega could just want to keep it Sonic-only. They do it enough with the games too...

But who knows. Sakurai might've been told no. Sakurai might not have thought of promoting Shadow. The only reason I'm of the opinion Shadow didn't fall-through and was kept as an AT is due to his late reveal. But that's not much real evidence, so eh.

 

[nessdeltarune00]

Do you even know why people wanted Edelgard pre-TH's release? Seems like you're becoming a bit insane from the idea that people want characters to play as, not just more copyrights on the title screen.

I was talking about Byleth, lol.

Both Edelguard and Byleth were referred to in my post.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I can
View attachment 254499


Actually, I have an idea. Name any spirits you want to see promoted, the rules are 1 per franchise with playable characters and only 5 from franchises without characters

Suppose I should participate in my own game
*cries*
Antasma
Dixie Kong
Ghirahim
Fusion Suit Samus
Poochy
Susie
Krystal
Heracross
Kumatora
Samurai Goroh
Lyn
Hades
Ashley
Raiden
Blaze
Louie
Tom Nook
Zero
Doc. Louis
Fiora
Chun Li
Rodin
Octolings
Shanoa
Haru
Erik (He's in the Hero's Comrades spirits so it counts for me)
Gruntilda I guess
Iori
Shovel Knight
Style Savvy
Wonder Red
Jill Valentine
Starfy


No I don't take criticism

 

[Jerry98]

Hi everyone and merry Xmas!
Sometimes ago I made my ideal Fighter Pass #2 and I'd like to post it here. I didn't choose first party characters because it seems like Sakurai is trying to open the door to new series and videogame worlds and I doubt that the 2nd FP will include Nintendo reps. There are many other characters who deserve to be in Smash, but these five are my most wantend.
Feel free to tell me if you like these picks.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Considering all of our Sega characters are literally from different franchises, Sega could just want to keep it Sonic-only. They do it enough with the games too...

But who knows. Sakurai might've been told no. Sakurai might not have thought of promoting Shadow. The only reason I'm of the opinion Shadow didn't fall-through and was kept as an AT is due to his late reveal. But that's not much real evidence, so eh.

Maybe. It's possible. There's also the fact that between Ken and Shadow, it can be argued that Ken fits the bill of Echo better and has a bigger presence in SF than Shadow does in the Sonic series (not to say Shadow's is bad, but Ken was there since before Street Fighter was what it is today).

I also don't have much for that argument aside from the fact that it sometimes takes several games for a single character to get one move fully reworked - so much so that I don't think we've ever seen one of these for third parties - due to Sakurai's "get it right in the first try" mentality.

Though you could say it sometimes works a bit differently with first party Echoes who should play differently than their original, like Dark Samus, for example.

 

[KillerCage]

Merry Christmas everyone!
My gift to you: an underrated soundtrack!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Maybe. It's possible. There's also the fact that between Ken and Shadow, it can be argued that Ken fits the bill of Echo better and has a bigger presence in SF than Shadow does in the Sonic series (not to say Shadow's is bad, but Ken was there since before Street Fighter was what it is today).

I also don't have much for that argument aside from the fact that it sometimes takes several games for a single character to get one move fully reworked - so much so that I don't think we've ever seen one of these for third parties - due to Sakurai's "get it right in the first try" mentality.

Though you could say it sometimes works a bit differently with first party Echoes who should play differently than their original, like Dark Samus, for example.

Oh, there's no doubt Ken is the most logical Echo. Especially if you plan to make him what some coin a "semi-echo". He's the original Player 2 even. Obvious choice, imo.

Yeah, that's true too. Companies do care about how their character is reworked. Shadow is sometimes a clone of Sonic with almost everything, and sometimes he's hyper unique. I more meant licensing fell-through at that point cause nobody could agree on what to do. Echoes should take the least amount of work as is of a newcomer, so it might've been a short thing to happen.

Though with what Sakurai said, I'm leaning more towards never attempting to promote him, since he had the full roster planned early on and no changes were made for the base game whatsoever(I may be misremembering it though). As for why reveal him late, Knuckles was the new blood. Older AT's are less of a priority to reveal.

Anyway, gtg(I won't have online for probably 8-10 hours).

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Name any spirits you want to see promoted, the rules are 1 per franchise with playable characters and only 5 from franchises without characters

Geno lol
Chunky Kong
Deku Link (He would actually be kind of a cool character shooting snot bubbles and gliding with his propeller flowers)
Kanden
Poochy
Nago
Panther
Salamence
Duster
Pico
Hector
Magnus
Jimmy T
Liquid
Tails
Charlie (Mind baffling that the President isn't even a spirit, but that just means he has chance for the post pass)
Proto Man
Glass Joe
Dunban
Chun Li
Alucard
Ryuji
Mumbo
Iori

ult:misc
Alexandra Roivas
Isaac
Chris Redfield
Diskun
Mach Rider

 

[wynn728]

I sincerely doubt that. (Waluigi's not even close to my most wanted btw).

Yeah, Sakurai knows that Waluigi is wanted, but clearly he doesn't want to include Waluigi. Like look at the criteria that Sakurai gave to say why Piranha Plant was included; he wanted a character who isn't a hero or a main villain and could be consider a joke character. Waluigi literally fits that criteria and would've been considered a fan requested character. If Sakurai choose Piranha Plant over Waluigi then that the greatest indicator that he REALLY doesn't want to work on Waluigi (Hell, he's been an Assist Trophy three times, second he said Waluigi can't get in no matter how hard he try, then third reveal they showed you can kill Assist Trophies by using Waluigi)

 

[Cosmic77]

Yeah, Sakurai knows that Waluigi is wanted, but clearly he doesn't want to include Waluigi. Like look at the criteria that Sakurai gave to say why Piranha Plant was included; he wanted a character who isn't a hero or a main villain and could be consider a joke character. Waluigi literally fits that criteria and would've been considered a fan requested character. If Sakurai choose Piranha Plant over Waluigi then that the greatest indicator that he REALLY doesn't want to work on Waluigi (Hell, he's been an Assist Trophy three times, second he said Waluigi can't get in no matter how hard he try, then third reveal they showed you can kill Assist Trophies by using Waluigi)

To be fair, this is a similar arguement people used with Ridley.

"Sakurai knows he's popular, and while I'm sure he could make Ridley work as a fighter, clearly he doesn't think Ridley should be one. He would've added him in Smash a long time ago if this wasn't the case."

Waluigi is a character Sakurai isn't comfortable adding yet. I'm sure Waluigi's day will come eventually, but I'm not sure if that day will be sometime soon.

 

[Koopaul]

Even now I say Sakurai only reconsidered Ridley because of the insane amount of fan outcry for nearly decades. Otherwise I think Sakurai would just feel like Ridley is better as a boss. The fans sort of twisted his hand.

 

[wynn728]

To be fair, this is a similar arguement people used with Ridley.

"Sakurai knows he's popular, and while I'm sure he could make Ridley work as a fighter, clearly he doesn't think Ridley should be one. He would've added him in Smash a long time ago if this wasn't the case."

Waluigi is a character Sakurai isn't comfortable adding yet. I'm sure Waluigi's day will come eventually, but I'm not sure if that day will be sometime soon.

I doubt it. With Ridley there was some respect for the character and acknowledge of trying to do as much as he can with the character. With Waluigi there were many opportunities and each time there's just a massive amount of disrespect towards Waluigi. There zero attempt

 

[Koopaul]

I don't think it's disrespect. He seems to have Waluigi as the face of Assist Trophies. He had a Waluigi plush when talking about ATs and showcased him first for Ultimate. I don't think Sakurai sees ATs as an insult to a character. And Waluigi being the representative of all ATs might be an honor from his perspective. But everyone else sees ATs as a death sentence. Understandable. I don't think a random item spawn is the best way to handle assists.

 

[Cosmic77]

I doubt it. With Ridley there was some respect for the character and acknowledge of trying to do as much as he can with the character. With Waluigi there were many opportunities and each time there's just a massive amount of disrespect towards Waluigi. There zero attempt

I don't think it's disrespect. He seems to have Waluigi as the face of Assist Trophies. He had a Waluigi plush when talking about ATs and showcased him first for Ultimate. I don't think Sakurai sees ATs as an insult to a character. And Waluigi being the representative of all ATs might be an honor from his perspective. But everyone else sees ATs as a death sentence. Understandable. I don't think a random item spawn is the best way to handle assists.

Yeah, I don't think Sakurai is being disrespectful, or at least he's not intending to be disrespectful.

Despite what the fandom says, being an AT is a pretty big honor. We've seen many ATs come and go, including more notable ones like Isaac and Tingle. Waluigi has been here since Brawl, which makes me think Sakurai is trying to acknowledge Waluigi's existence in the next best way to becoming a fighter.

 

[Deleted member]

Good morning and belated Merry Christmas to everyone.

Apparently there's talk of Assists and stuff...

 

[Cutie Gwen]

"Assists are disrespectful to the characters!"

Meanwhile Assists be out here like

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

"Assists are disrespectful to the characters!"

Meanwhile Assists be out here like

Spoiler: Media

Assist Trophies should totally pose with you if they score the final K.O. Just imagine the cutting to the results screen, the announcer says "Team Snake wins!". Snake poses as a game of Pong plays behind him.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I can
View attachment 254499


Actually, I have an idea. Name any spirits you want to see promoted, the rules are 1 per franchise with playable characters and only 5 from franchises without characters

- Pauline
- Impa
- Poochy
- Bandana Dee
- Kumatora
- Black Shadow
- I think we're fine. Decidueye and Lycanroc don't have Spirits OR Pokeballs, and almost every other Pokemon Spirit is a Pokeball. Except for the SwSh Pokemon but I don't see the ones we have happening anyway
- Medusa
- Celica (separately from Alm)
- Dixie Kong
- laughs, then cries as the only two FF7 spirits are just Cloud's fighter spirits
- .... Panther Caroso?
- Brittany
- Octoling (Octo Expansion)
- ELMA ELMA ELMA PLEASEEEEEEEEEEEE
- Mona I guess
- Chun-li
- Rising!Raiden (RULES OF NATUREEEEEEE)
- Jeanne

Franchises without characters - Twintelle (since Spring Man's an AT), Shantae, Rayman, Chorus Kids ... and this is the part where I'd mention Officer Howard. IF THEY HAD A SPIRIT!

 

[Dinoman96]

In the end, despite Waluigi's popularity, he's really nothing more than a spinoff roster filler character. He just doesn't have much significance outside of simply...existing. And unlike Daisy, who's main saving grace is the fact that she can be essentially a glorified alt costume for Peach (they don't even have any gameplay differences at this point), Waluigi would require a fully unique moveset. I don't think it's hard to see why Sakurai doesn't think he's really worth the effort, despite all the memes.

If Waluigi became a major player in either Mario or Wario, or just got his own spinoff series that was decently successful, maybe things would be different.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

In the end, despite Waluigi's popularity, he's really nothing more than a spinoff roster filler character. He just doesn't have much significance outside of simply...existing. And unlike Daisy, who's main saving grace is the fact that she can be essentially a glorified alt costume for Peach (they don't even have any gameplay differences at this point), Waluigi would require a fully unique moveset. I don't think it's hard to see why Sakurai doesn't think he's really worth the effort, despite all the memes.

If Waluigi became a major player in either Mario or Wario, or just got his own spinoff that was decently successful, maybe things would be different.

I don't think this is quite what you meant but Daisy does have a gimmick to differentiate herself in the Super Mario series. In Super Mario Run, Daisy double jumps instead of floating like Peach. If Daisy and Peach make it into the next game (I don't really see a reason to drop either character but you never know) I would like to see this difference added, with slight moveset adjustments for Daisy so her moveset doesn't rely on a mechanic she no longer has.

 

[Dinoman96]

I don't think this is quite what you meant but Daisy does have a gimmick to differentiate herself in the Super Mario series. In Super Mario Run, Daisy double jumps instead of floating like Peach. If Daisy and Peach make it into the next game (I don't really see a reason to drop either character but you never know) I would like to see this difference added, with slight moveset adjustments for Daisy so her moveset doesn't rely on a mechanic she no longer has.

I meant that in Smash Bros., they literally have no difference from each other. The knockback values for Daisy's turnips used to differ but that got patched out, effectively turning Daisy into nothing more than a glorified alt costume for Peach that happens to have her own spot in the CSS. Even other echoes like Dark Pit and Dark Samus have some small differences from their base characters.

That's why I don't think she's a good argument for Waluigi's inclusion as much as his fans seem to think.

 

[Cosmic77]

Daisy really should have more to differentiate herself from Peach. Two of the six Echoes are literal clones, and yet Sakurai managed to make them more unique than a character who's a completely separate identity from the person her moveset comes from.

Just get rid of the moves involving SMB2 and replace them with something different. That would be good enough for me.

 

[Guynamednelson]

glorified alt costume for Peach that happens to have her own spot in the CSS

This is what echoes are meant to be. We only have exceptions because of A. Echoes being added when they weren't established, B. Sakurai wanting to show how Chrom would be Marth+Ike, and C. Ken already having groundwork set for gameplay differences as a moveset clone.

 

[Deleted member]

B. Sakurai wanting to show how Chrom would be Marth+Ike

He's no sourspots Roy with Aether.

 

[Dinoman96]

This is what echoes are meant to be. We only have exceptions because of A. Echoes being added when they weren't established, B. Sakurai wanting to show how Chrom would be Marth+Ike, and C. Ken already having groundwork set for gameplay differences as a moveset clone.

Like I said, the other echoes still have some differences from their counterparts, and it's not just Chrom/Ken.

Richter's holy water properties are different from Simon's, Dark Samus has slightly faster rolls and slightly different hitboxes for her up smash. Daisy doesn't even get that.

 

[Fenriraga]

Assist Trophies should totally pose with you if they score the final K.O. Just imagine the cutting to the results screen, the announcer says "Team Snake wins!". Snake poses as a game of Pong plays behind him.

Most of em pose when they exit the stage anyway, just have em hold the pose and it'd work perfectly, yeah.