Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Brindor]

Never got the hate for Piranha Plate.
It was a nice little add on DLC in the same vein as getting Free Garlic Bread when you order over $40 at Pizza Hut. It's not what you had in mind when you rang up, but you're not gonna say no to it either

Can't stand people who bust a vein and take their anger out on things Piranha Bread whose fault it wasn't in the first place.

 

[Opossum]

Well when you have such limitation like only having 7 characters for the base roster and 5 for the DLC, giving us less than Melee's Newcomer Count, and you have a list of characters that people have been wanting with the ballot you might as well try to make every single character a fan favor demand like Ridley and Banjo. But nope, apparently four characters from the ballot is just enough for Sakurai. The fan requested characters only take up 25% of newcomers added into Ultimate, something got messed up here.

Why are you counting the six Melee clones but not the five Ultimate echoes?

 

[JustMyself13]

Well when you have such limitation like only having 7 characters for the base roster and 5 for the DLC, giving us less than Melee's Newcomer Count, and you have a list of characters that people have been wanting with the ballot you might as well try to make every single character a fan favor demand like Ridley and Banjo. But nope, apparently four characters from the ballot is just enough for Sakurai. The fan requested characters only take up 25% of newcomers added into Ultimate, something got messed up here.

I’d argue that most of the ballot was comprised of veterans like Snake, Ice Climbers, Wolf, Pokémon Trainer, etc., and they all got in.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Ya boi Andy Standy of course.

I Andystand.

But seriously... at this point I have half a mind to just go with my gut instinct of Phoenix Wright regardless of what Vergeben says hahaha. Not because I doubt his track record, but because I'm practically running out of ideas here, especially considering he even shut down some "out there" picks like Kratos and Gordon.

I'm not sure that preferring Lloyd, Heihachi, Nightmare or Solaire over KOS-MOS is an unpopular opinion. Maybe within the confines of this thread given that the rumors have made her fanbase very active, but among the wider Smash fanbase I'm fairly confident in saying any of those four characters would be better received, at least initially (moveset, music and general representation can sway people's opinions a lot).

Basically this. Personally, it would be a headscratch for me, as if Morrigan got in before the RE crew, Phoenix, a Monster Hunter character or Dante. Doesn't mean it's an objectively bad choice, just... a strange one.

Either way, my most wanted from Namco is Klonoa, so no matter who wins on that front, I lose.

 

[Ace C.R.O.S.S.]

There’s always tomorrow, and there’s a rare chance they can announce it tonight around 7-9 PM EST.

sadly...

Then.... I lost hope...

 

[wynn728]

Why are you counting the six Melee clones but not the five Ultimate echoes?

Okay, fine. Without counting the counting Melee's clones we got 8 newcomers, which is still one more when compare to Ultimate's base roster newcomers. Regardless still a small amount of newcomers even when you combine all the DLC and compare it to Brawl's newcomers. With such a limited amount of newcomers added how hard would it be to fill it up with characters from the ballot. Apparently super hard considering that Sakurai threw that ballot in the trash.

 

[Opossum]

Okay, fine. Without counting the counting Melee's clones we got 8 newcomers, which is still one more when compare to Ultimate's base roster newcomers. Regardless still a small amount of newcomers even when you combine all the DLC and compare it to Brawl's newcomers. With such a limited amount of newcomers added how hard would it be to fill it up with characters from the ballot. Apparently super hard considering that Sakurai threw that ballot in the trash.

The ballot is literally the reason we got all the veterans back, and explicitly why Ridley, Simon, K. Rool, Chrom, and Dark Samus got in. It absolutely wasn't thrown away.

 

[osby]

Well when you have such limitation like only having 7 characters for the base roster and 5 for the DLC, giving us less than Melee's Newcomer Count, and you have a list of characters that people have been wanting with the ballot you might as well try to make every single character a fan favor demand like Ridley and Banjo. But nope, apparently four characters from the ballot is just enough for Sakurai. The fan requested characters only take up 25% of newcomers added into Ultimate, something got messed up here.

People who voted at the ballot are only a small part of consumers who bought Ultimate.

Also, you don't get to count core fanbase's wants and ignore veterans and casual oriented characters like Inkling.

Not to mention if you only care about pandering in a video game, there's no room for innovation and creativity. Some people (who bought the game anyway) raging at a fictional character online for not being exactly they wanted is a small price to pay for adding some more diversity to a roster that's already filled with a lot of fanservice.

 

[BZocky]

Y'all, it's been over a year since piranha plant

is it really that hard to forgive and forget?

I love sniping off stage opponents with the metal spiky ball, taking their stock instantly.
Piranha Plant is very fun to play as.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

The ballot is literally the reason we got all the veterans back, and explicitly why Ridley, Simon, K. Rool, Chrom, and Dark Samus got in. It absolutely wasn't thrown away.

What about Isabelle? Was she due to the ballot too?

 

[Opossum]

What about Isabelle? Was she due to the ballot too?

Isabelle, like Inkling, was more of just popular in general with the general audience, so they didn't need the ballot.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Okay, fine. Without counting the counting Melee's clones we got 8 newcomers, which is still one more when compare to Ultimate's base roster newcomers. Regardless still a small amount of newcomers even when you combine all the DLC and compare it to Brawl's newcomers. With such a limited amount of newcomers added how hard would it be to fill it up with characters from the ballot. Apparently super hard considering that Sakurai threw that ballot in the trash.

fan favorites aren't the be all end all in Sakurai's book

he also likes to make room for the rising stars (Inkling and Isabelle) and new playstyle ideas (eg. Wrestler fighter with incineroar)

 

[Cosmic77]

Well when you have such limitation like only having 7 characters for the base roster and 5 for the DLC, giving us less than Melee's Newcomer Count, and you have a list of characters that people have been wanting with the ballot you might as well try to make every single character a fan favor demand like Ridley and Banjo. But nope, apparently four characters from the ballot is just enough for Sakurai. The fan requested characters only take up 25% of newcomers added into Ultimate, something got messed up here.

Okay, and was Smash 4's base roster much better? With or without a ballot, Sakurai should know who's popular, and none of the big three at the time (Mewtwo, Ridley, K. Rool) made the base roster. The closest we had to highly requested characters was Villager, Mega Man. Little Mac, and Palutena.

Ultimate has one of the smallest yet greatest base rosters for me, and I wanted most of the newcomers prior to their reveal. I don't see why a free DLC character who was clearly added on the basis that Sakurai thought it would be creative should change that.

 

[RileyXY1]

What about Isabelle? Was she due to the ballot too?

Isabelle was added similarly to the Inklings: both were popular new Nintendo characters.

 

[osby]

What about Isabelle? Was she due to the ballot too?

Possible but she's not older than Melee so she doesn't count.

Look how many people are deliberately forgetting the fan demand for Chrom or Inkling.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I’d argue that most of the ballot was comprised of veterans like Snake, Ice Climbers, Wolf, Pokémon Trainer, etc., and they all got in.

My guesses are:

K.Rool > Snake > Ridley > Wolf > Pokémon Trainer > Ice Climbers.

 

[nessdeltarune00]

So... are we still taking Vergeben's disconfirmations list into account? I'm a bit unsure about where to look next.

If we still did and the situation with KOS-MOS is just a mistake, as others pointed out here... then who is still left here?

I guess Dragonborn?

But I’m not taking his deconfirmations seriously anymore unless he can say with 100% confidence who FP5 is.

 

[Opossum]

My guesses are:

K.Rool > Snake > Ridley > Wolf > Pokémon Trainer > Ice Climbers.

The Ice Climbers were almost certainly above Pokémon Trainer. Support for Squirtle and Ivysaur was ironically tepid in comparison.

 

[Ivander]

It doesn't bother me that Mai didn't get included, If anything, I find the set of circumstances to be somewhat funny.

What does bother me is how a few people legitimately want Mai to get in Smash as a character just because Sakurai said, "No" to a stage cameo.

It's the contrarian/rebel/whateverwordIamlookingfor attitude. When someone says, "No.", some people just feel like they have to say "Yes!" even louder.

 

[nessdeltarune00]

I Andystand.

But seriously... at this point I have half a mind to just go with my gut instinct of Phoenix Wright regardless of what Vergeben says hahaha. Not because I doubt his track record, but because I'm practically running out of ideas here, especially considering he even shut down some "out there" picks like Kratos and Gordon.

There is no doubt that he has a source. Anyone who says that he made “safe guesses” during the base game is simply kidding themselves.

The only question though, does the source even know who FP5 is?

The KOS-MOS thing heavily implied that they don’t, so I’m still hoping for Wright, or anyone else on that list.

 

[wynn728]

The ballot is literally the reason we got all the veterans back, and explicitly why Ridley, Simon, K. Rool, Chrom, and Dark Samus got in. It absolutely wasn't thrown away.

Okay, so why is it that we only got one character from the ballot added into the Fighters Pass? The ballot wasn't the reason why the veterans returned, they returned because everyone knows that cutting characters always leads to disappointing fans, you don't need a ballot to tell you that. Point me in the directions where people were demanding that Young Link comes back.

People who voted at the ballot are only a small part of consumers who bought Ultimate.

Also, you don't get to count core fanbase's wants and ignore veterans and casual oriented characters like Inkling.

Not to mention if you only care about pandering in a video game, there's no room for innovation and creativity. Some people (who bought the game anyway) raging at a fictional character online for not being exactly they wanted is a small price to pay for adding some more diversity to a roster that's already filled with a lot of fanservice.

Yeah because you know you can never be creative or innovative with characters that the fanbase have been requesting for for years. Nope, can't be creative with characters like Waluigi, Ashley, Banadana Waddle Dee, Geno, Paper Mario, Isaac, Chibi Robo, Shantae, Wonder Red, Sora, Skull Kid, Krystal, Bomberman, or Rayman. Totally can't make a creative moveset with any of these guys, so just scrap them and just put in characters that nobody have been asking for instead.

 

[3BitSaurus]

There is no doubt that he has a source. Anyone who says that he made “safe guesses” during the base game is simply kidding themselves.

The only question though, is that does the source even know who FP5 is?

The KOS-MOS thing heavily implied that they don’t, so I’m still hoping for Wright, or anyone else on that list.

Basically this, yes. Another problem is whether or not all of these disconfirmations are coming from the same source.

I'm also morbidly curious about the thing with Burb. People said it would have been about to Geno or Steve, but it could also be related to a character the person he was referring to hated, right? Or did he specify something else I didn't see?

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Okay, and was Smash 4's base roster much better? With or without a ballot, Sakurai should know who's popular, and none of the big three at the time (Mewtwo, Ridley, K. Rool) made the base roster. The closest we had to highly requested characters was Villager, Mega Man. Little Mac, and Palutena.

Ultimate has one of the smallest yet greatest base rosters for me, and I wanted most of the newcomers prior to their reveal. I don't see why a free DLC character who was clearly added on the basis that Sakurai thought it would be creative should change that.

Just a minor correction, but Mega Man was absolutely up there with Ridley and K. Rool before his reveal, he was just announced so early that his support didn't take off in the same way. People make up all sorts of "Big 3/4/5/etc" these days, but the one time where I think that was actually a regular phrase here was in the pre-E3 2013 days where everyone acknowledged that Mewtwo, Mega Man, Ridley and K. Rool were a cut above the rest.

But yeah, I definitely agree. I think something people need to understand is that every character is included for different reasons, if it hadn't been Piranha Plant it would have been another character of similar qualities (unorthodox in every way). It was never Piranha Plant vs Waluigi/Isaac/Skull Kid/etc, those characters simply weren't in contention for that "spot". Ultimate is really the biggest fanservice game out there, you have to have a serious case of tunnel vision to criticize it for not listening to fans enough.

 

[nessdeltarune00]

Basically this, yes. Another problem is whether or not all of these disconfirmations are coming from the same source.

I'm also morbidly curious about the thing with Burb. People said it would have been about to Geno or Steve, but it could also be related to a character the person he was referring to hated, right? Or did he specify something else I didn't see?

He said that it has nothing to do with FP5, but that the piece of info given to him that would make a user named JudgeGeno (who also was spamming Vergeben about the supposed “Minecraft content”) extremely angry.

The deduction made by everyone is that he was likely referring to either a Geno or Steve Mii costume.

 

[Opossum]

Okay, so why is it that we only got one character from the ballot added into the Fighters Pass? The ballot wasn't the reason why the veterans returned, they returned because everyone knows that cutting characters always leads to disappointing fans, you don't need a ballot to tell you that. Point me in the directions where people were demanding that Young Link comes back.


Yeah because you know you can never be creative or innovative with characters that the fanbase have been requesting for for years. Nope, can't be creative with characters like Waluigi, Ashley, Banadana Waddle Dee, Geno, Paper Mario, Isaac, Chibi Robo, Shantae, Wonder Red, Sora, Skull Kid, Krystal, Bomberman, or Rayman. Totally can't make a creative moveset with any of these guys, so just scrap them and just put in characters that nobody hav e been asking for instead.

He explicitly stated that the ballot was used a lot and was the reason all the veterans came back.

Also Hero was very likely from the ballot as well.

 

[3BitSaurus]

He said that it has nothing to do with FP5, but that the piece of info given to him would make a user named JudgeGeno (who also was spamming Vergeben about the supposed “Minecraft content”) extremely angry.

The deduction made by everyone is that he was likely referring to either a Geno or Steve Mii costume.

Interesting... so assuming this is the case for argument's sake: would this point to a Square or Microsoft character in the next season? It's not that farfetched to think about this when Vergeben had info on a Square character (later revealed to be Hero) during base game and Banjo and Kazooie were first heard of at Q2 2018.

So yeah, again, assuming this info is right, it would point to a character from one of these two. Reminder that Square is kinda weird when it comes to costumes - they're the only company so far that only got costumes whenever it got a new character. Plus, besides Geno, Chocobo is also missing.

 

[osby]

Okay, so why is it that we only got one character from the ballot added into the Fighters Pass? The ballot wasn't the reason why the veterans returned, they returned because everyone knows that cutting characters always leads to disappointing fans, you don't need a ballot to tell you that. Point me in the directions where people were demanding that Young Link comes back.

Why do they have to keep adding characters from the ballot?

Hardcore fans already got Ridley, K.Rool, Dark Samus and Banjo, along with any veteran they might like and relatively Western/nostalgia oriented newcomer choices compared to Smash 4.

Only appealing to one demographic is a bad business decision, especially if said demographic is impossible to satisfy.

Yeah because you know you can never be creative or innovative with characters that the fanbase have been requesting for for years. Nope, can't be creative with characters like Waluigi, Ashley, Banadana Waddle Dee, Geno, Paper Mario, Isaac, Chibi Robo, Shantae, Wonder Red, Sora, Skull Kid, Krystal, Bomberman, or Rayman. Totally can't make a creative moveset with any of these guys, so just scrap them and just put in characters that nobody have been asking for instead.

I never said that.

Piranha Plant was added with moveset potential and recognizability in mind. Comparing him to popular requests is meaningless because they were simply not in the same category. It's like getting angry at Duck Hunt for stealing Geno's "retro rep slot".

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Here we are arguing character recognition definitions again when Sakurai blatantly sated he adds characters that bring something new, regardless of who recognises them.

 

[Gentlepanda]

1 year later and people are still ****ting their pants in fury over the plant

 

[nessdeltarune00]

Interesting... so assuming this is the case for argument's sake: would this point to a Square or Microsoft character in the next season? It's not that farfetched to think about this when Vergeben had info on a Square character (later revealed to be Hero) during base game and Banjo and Kazooie were first heard of at Q2 2018.

So yeah, again, assuming this info is right, it would point to a character from one of these two. Reminder that Square is kinda weird when it comes to costumes - they're the only company so far that only got costumes whenever it got a new character. Plus, besides Geno, Chocobo is also missing.

That is a very good point.

Since he is a user here, I wonder if I’m allowed to tag him, so we can ask for clarification?

He probably isn’t allowed to share too much, but maybe he could tell us how credible he thinks this supposed info is.

 

[Wunderwaft]

I know people would love to see Ultimate get ported for next gen consoles and keep the entire roster, but I'm gonna be the odd one out and say I'm against Ultimate getting ported. I don't want to play the same game for an entire decade straight. I want a new engine. I want new mechanics and techniques. I want a new UI. I want a new Battlefield and Final Destination. I want a new theme song. I want a new adventure mode. I want a new game.

Cuts are an inevitable part of game development. Yeah, they suck, but they're necessary due to limited resources and development time. Just because it's gonna be hard to top Ultimate's roster doesn't mean they should outright give up on making new games.

 

[wynn728]

Okay, and was Smash 4's base roster much better? With or without a ballot, Sakurai should know who's popular, and none of the big three at the time (Mewtwo, Ridley, K. Rool) made the base roster. The closest we had to highly requested characters was Villager, Mega Man. Little Mac, and Palutena.

Ultimate has one of the smallest yet greatest base rosters for me, and I wanted most of the newcomers prior to their reveal. I don't see why a free DLC character who was clearly added on the basis that Sakurai thought it would be creative should change that.

Ulitmate newcomer roster was great because for a great while it was just making dreams come true with Ridley, Simon, and K. Rool. Those times were the best because it felt like the most wildest dreams are coming true... until November happen where they ended everything off with an obligation to the Pokemon Company. Then you got a list of characters that are never going to be added into Smash Bros Ultimate; Krystal, Bomberman, Isaac, Shadow, Shovel Knight, Ashley, Takamaru, Waluigi, ARMS, Skull Kid, Chibi Robo, Dixie Kong, Geno, Rex, and Shantae. Then all of those deconfirmation you get Piranha Plant. Knowing where Ultimate is going and the characters that are never getting in highlights the fact that the dream of these fan favorites getting in is dead, especially when you see that the Fighters Pass is only comprise of third party characters and only one of them was a fan request. Future Smash Bros DLC isn't going any different. Sakurai ain't going back to all those characters he made into Assist Trophies and Mii Costume to give a second shot, they're going to remain like that forever. So yeah, Piranha Plant does change a lot because it shows the true nature of what Ultimate's future is going to be, bunch of random characters that no one has been asking for while the fan request characters have no future.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

1 year later and people are still ****ting their pants in fury over the plant

View attachment 253423

Giving that's it's full of great nutrients for plant growth, that's a near literal **** eating grin

 

[Guynamednelson]

Oh yeah, I forgot the Smash Bros rule "You don't like the character at all? Well they're in Smash Bros now so you better like them now because you're wrong for hating it."

I'd be more accepting of that mentality if it came from people who got over Banjo.

 

[Opossum]

Ulitmate newcomer roster was great because for a great while it was just making dreams come true with Ridley, Simon, and K. Rool. Those times were the best because it felt like the most wildest dreams are coming true... until November happen where they ended everything off with an obligation to the Pokemon Company. Then you got a list of characters that are never going to be added into Smash Bros Ultimate; Krystal, Bomberman, Isaac, Shadow, Shovel Knight, Ashley, Takamaru, Waluigi, ARMS, Skull Kid, Chibi Robo, Dixie Kong, Geno, Rex, and Shantae. Then all of those deconfirmation you get Piranha Plant. Knowing where Ultimate is going and the characters that are never getting in highlights the fact that the dream of these fan favorites getting in is dead, especially when you see that the Fighters Pass is only comprise of third party characters and only one of them was a fan request. Future Smash Bros DLC isn't going any different. Sakurai ain't going back to all those characters he made into Assist Trophies and Mii Costume to give a second shot, they're going to remain like that forever. So yeah, Piranha Plant does change a lot because it shows the true nature of what Ultimate's future is going to be, bunch of random characters that no one has been asking for while the fan request characters have no future.

Hero was literally added for fan demand. Banjo-Kazooie wasn't the only highly demanded DLC character.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Here is a really unpopular opinion if anyone wants one.

Idk what her situation is at this point imo, but KOS-MOS over Lloyd, Heihachi, Nightmare, and Solaire (ESPECIALLY Lloyd) would be the most disappointing outcome for me in the entire Ultimate cycle.

Unless Xenosaga has REALLY good music like Joker, Terry, ect, she’d probably be one of the few challenger packs I wouldn’t buy.

I mean... I’m not that into Namco Bandai characters, but all of those have good merits. And I would be somewhat excited about them.

As for the music. I may not have heard any music from Xenosaga, but the composer, Yasunori Mitsuda, is top tier material. If his Chrono Trigger/Cross music is anything to go by, it’ll be on par or better than the ones you mentioned. And I really like SNK music and P5 too.

Edit:
Just dawned on me how much I regret not getting Xenosaga 1&2 back then.
Oh well, if anything, I can find them cheap nowadays.

 

[Thewafflemaker2000]

Piranha Plant is one of the most forgettable characters for me

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Well, if Nintendo is announcing anything this week, which I very much doubt, they'll probably announce it in 6 or 7 hours today.

 

[wynn728]

Why they have to keep adding characters from the ballot?

Hardcore fans already got Ridley, K.Rool, Dark Samus and Banjo, along with any veteran they might like and relatively Western/nostalgia oriented newcomer choices compared to Smash 4.

Only appealing to one demographic is a bad business decision, especially if said demographic is impossible to satisfy.

So it's a bad business decision to keep listening to the fans who kept supporting the series for two decades? Adding in a requested character over Piranha Plant wasn't going to make a giant difference that would cause Ultimate to fail. What demographic does Piranha Plant satisfy? It only satisfy the most casual audience who doesn't really care about what gets in. So if they don't care at all then they wouldn't mind if a hardcore fan favorite gets in instead of a wacky choice.

Sure you can't satisfy everyone, but you might as well try.

I never said that.

Piranha Plant was added with moveset potential and recognizability in mind. Comparing him to popular requests is meaningless because they were simply not in the same category. It's like getting angry at Duck Hunt for stealing Geno's "retro rep slot".

There's a huge difference between Duck Hunt and Piranha Plant. For Smash Bros 4 you had 15 newcomers for the base roster, 19 included all the DLC, while Smash Bros Ultimate is working it's way up to 12. When you have such a large amount of characters to work with then a joke character is great, but when you are really limited to how much you can included probably would be for the best to not was precious time on a joke that's only funny for two weeks.

 

[Playstation Guy 1000]

Well, if Nintendo is announcing anything this week, which I very much doubt, they'll probably announce it in 6 or 7 hours today.

they probably going to announce a new spirit board event later on.