Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[wynn728]

Hero was literally added for fan demand. Banjo-Kazooie wasn't the only highly demanded DLC character.

Hero was added to promote Dragon Quest XI S.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Hero was added to promote Dragon Quest XI S.

There's a reason why the DQ3 Hero was the one most speculated about.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

I think the biggest problem with Piranha plant isn't really the character itself but the timing of his announcement. After Ridley, King K. Rool and Simon Belmont, people where expecting one last big fan favorite for the last spot. Then the Grinch leak came, which put people's expectations even higher that they were. In the end, we got a bunch of fan favorite deconfirmation (Shadow, Isaac, Spring-Man) and a Pokémon + a Ryu clone. Piranha plant was basically the cherry on top after all that.

 

[Ura]

Point me in the directions where people were demanding that Young Link comes back.

Ayy yo

 

[Mushroomguy12]

It's like getting angry at Duck Hunt for stealing Geno's "retro rep slot".

There's a huge difference between Duck Hunt and Piranha Plant. For Smash Bros 4 you had 15 newcomers for the base roster, 19 included all the DLC, while Smash Bros Ultimate is working it's way up to 12. When you have such a large amount of characters to work with then a joke character is great, but when you are really limited to how much you can included probably would be for the best to not was precious time on a joke that's only funny for two weeks.

Also Duck Hunt represented a brand new universe in Smash that came with its own stage, music, trophies, etc, and the game itself was an important part of Nintendo's history, being sold alongside the original Super Mario Bros in one of the most popular NES bundles.

Piranha Plant is from an already incredibly well repped series and brought absolutely nothing else to the game that couldn't come with any other Mario character.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Hero was added to promote Dragon Quest XI S.

Hero was added to promote Dragon Quest XI S.

I still have the postgame to beat but I'm pretty sure that the 3 alts aren't in 11S

 

[Opossum]

Hero was added to promote Dragon Quest XI S.

How about reading the link I showed you, where Sakurai explicitly stated that Dragon Quest was highly requested for a long time. The truth matters more than the narrative you're trying to push.

 

[Cosmic77]

Piranha Plant is from an already incredibly well repped series and brought absolutely nothing else to the game that couldn't come with any other Mario character.

There's very little in Piranha Plant's moveset that could be given to another Mario character or any character in general, and I'd imagine that's why Sakurai decided to add it

The argument you're using works better for someone like Waluigi, but of course no one's ever going to say that because he's popular.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

I never implied that I cared about echoes. I do, however, care deeply about the plant and sincerely ask that you do not bully him further. He’s just trying to have fun playing with the big boys and girls. The plant did nothing wrong.

Hmm, well if you don't care about echos and see no problem with bullying them, I'll retort that I have every right to bully your plant, which did do something wrong in that it stole a slot from dozens of other more qualified picks in the very last game that brought back every single veteran in the series.

I really hate to use that stealing slots garbage but there's literally no other alternative, since it was a completely unique character. Especially when every retort to other characters that didn't get in was "they didn't have time for developing him/her/it".

 

[3BitSaurus]

That is a very good point.

Since he is a user here, I wonder if I’m allowed to tag him, so we can ask for clarification?

He probably isn’t allowed to share too much, but maybe he could tell us how credible he thinks this supposed info is.

Maybe. I don't have any contact with the guy, though, so I don't feel okay doing that myself. There's also the possibility that he can't/doesn't want to answer.

As far as possibilities that come with that theory... Microsoft may not really need a costume to come with a character (BK didn't bring any), but Square has a few interesting options. In particular, 2B (because of the whole thing with Sakurai going to Yoko Taro's house and the livestream that's happening soon with the two of them) and Sora (while he's actually from Disney, one of the costumes Square is missing is from FF, so it would make sense for them to come with Sora and his KH content).

 

[Mushroomguy12]

There's very little in Piranha Plant's moveset that could be given to another Mario character or any character in general, and I'd imagine that's why Sakurai decided to add it

The argument you're using works better for someone like Waluigi, but of course no one's ever going to say that because he's popular.

I'm not talking about moveset, of course you can give a moveset to literally anything (as Plant demonstrates), so obviously characters need to have a bit more star quality than that, which is why the Plant's inclusion represents the point where the series jumped the shark for a lot of people. It is regressive and damaging to imply that character movesets are more important than the characters themselves. Both of these factors are equally important to Smash.

Also are you implying that Waluigi couldn't have a unique moveset? Cause plenty of fan mods disagree. I don't even like Waluigi that much and I call BS on that.

 

[osby]

Piranha Plant is from an already incredibly well repped series and brought absolutely nothing else to the game that couldn't come with any other Mario character.

Nah, most people who hate PP also ask for Geno or Waluigi, anyway.

I don't get why just not liking a character is so hard. It's easier than waging a feud or making up rules to prove why they are objectively bad additions.

 

[Hinata]

How about reading the link I showed you, where Sakurai explicitly stated that Dragon Quest was highly requested for a long time. The truth matters more than the narrative you're trying to push.

This conversation reminds me of the time someone tried to push the narrative that Sakurai actually hated Persona 5, and forced himself to play it in order to add Joker, who Nintendo was forcing him to add.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

I don't get why just not liking a character is so hard.

That's.... exactly what I'm doing. I think you people are drastically overreacting to any slight criticism of the Plant and acting like we're trying to organize a strike to burn down Nintendo HQ or something.


All I saw was people saying which echo they wanted to demote to an AT, I said I'd rather have the Plant demoted and all of a sudden 20 users jump on me screaming "HOW DARE YOU BULLY MY PRECIOUS PLANT!" and screaming about the mob attacking their Plant, while simultaneously becoming a mob themselves.

 

[Thewafflemaker2000]

I think piranha plant was a low budget character since there going to all these companies for character deals again

 

[EricTheGamerman]

Hero was added to promote Dragon Quest XI S.

Oh, yes, the character literally designed around a massively popular series to the point where it has 4 unique alts from different games, a Final Smash that includes the remaining protagonists, is one of the most popular game franchises of all time, and specifically a Japanese cultural touch stone that Sakurai and Japanese fans love... only got added to promote one re-release...

Wynn, how long are you going to just rage against Smash not going exactly your way? You've been doing this in the Geno thread for literal months. And it's the same exact complaint over and over again, and any time someone calls you out on it, you dig yourself deeper in the mud and double down. I get it, we all get it, you don't like Piranha Plant and feel that all the newcomers should only be from the ballot and that any other decision making deserves to be as a slight on Sakurai. You have made that abundantly clear time and time, and time, and time again.

But the thing is, there are other people besides yourself who do not share that opinion and are interested in other things beyond the ballot. The ballot is not, can not, and should not be the end all for Smash Bros. for a multitude of reasons that people, including myself, have been over with you consistently. I'm not getting back into it yet again, but the ballot will never cover everyone and there are other people's satisfaction, including Sakurai himself, to keep in mind beyond your own.

If you couldn't achieve any sort of support to your approach in the freaking Geno thread, what makes you think this specific repeat of old complaints and venting is going to play out here in the newcomer thread where this is even less support for the "all ballot, all the way" you have preached for ages? It's OK to have strong opinions on stuff and I'm not asking you to change them, but you genuinely really need to move on at this point. Not even for others, but for yourself because has this has been going on for over half a year.

 

[Spongeboob]

Also are you implying that Waluigi couldn't have a unique moveset? Cause plenty of fan mods disagree. I don't even like Waluigi that much and I call BS on that.

Eh... I don't disagree that he could have a unique moveset, but what he could bring to the table can be done by any other Mario rep in the game already.

 

[Gentlepanda]

piranha plant: is added
people: "whoever will sakurai add next"
sakurai:

 

[SNEKeater]

I still have the postgame to beat but I'm pretty sure that the 3 alts aren't in 11S

DQVIII Hero is in DQXI as a costume, I think.
but yeah, DQ wasn't added for the sake of promoting Dragon Quest XI. Nintendo and Sakurai probably were very happy with the idea of having Dragon Quest in Smash.

 

[Deleted member]

Lmao who cares, they just add the character the devs want into smash and people will buy it regardless of who they are.

 

[Deleted member]

How about reading the link I showed you, where Sakurai explicitly stated that Dragon Quest was highly requested for a long time. The truth matters more than the narrative you're trying to push.

Everything I Don't Like Is A Shill Pick

 

[kirbsmash]

Hmm. I was proven right then. One character you hate is another's beloved.

 

[JustMyself13]

Hmm, well if you don't care about echos and see no problem with bullying them, I'll retort that I have every right to bully your plant, which did do something wrong in that it stole a slot from dozens of other more qualified picks in the very last game that brought back every single veteran in the series.

I really hate to use that stealing slots garbage but there's literally no other alternative, since it was a completely unique character. Especially when every retort to other characters that didn't get in was "they didn't have time for developing him/her/it".

Ok, I raise you this, who did plant “steal a slot” from? Judging from the fact Plant is the only DLC character with a Palutena’s Guidance, it seems to have been decided on extremely early on where slots aren’t and have never been a thing.

If you’re admitting that your only argument is “garbage” anyway, what are you even trying to argue?

 

[MissingGlitch]

This conversation reminds me of the time someone tried to push the narrative that Sakurai actually hated Persona 5, and forced himself to play it in order to add Joker, who Nintendo was forcing him to add.

Still waiting on that Persona 5 Switch port that Nintendo forced Sakurai to promote by adding Joker to Smash. Any...day...now....

 

[Cosmic77]

I'm not talking about moveset, of course you can give a moveset to literally anything (as Plant demonstrates), so obviously characters need to have a bit more star quality than that, which is why Piranha Plant represents the point where the series has jumped the shark for a lot of people. It is reductive in a damaging way to infer that character functions are more important than characters. Both are equally important to Smash.

Well, star quality is coincidentally one of the reasons why Sakurai added PP in the first place. He explicitly said that everyone should know what it is. If Sakurai wanted to have some type of bonus character given away for free, it makes sense why he'd want to choose something basic and extremely iconic. Everyone can enjoy it that way.

Even if it wasn't PP, I still think we would've gotten something similar. I highly doubt he stole this particular spot from someone like Issac or Geno.

 

[Spongeboob]

Lmao who cares, they just add the character the devs want into smash and people will buy it regardless of who they are.

kek/lol/whatever

 

[osby]

This conversation reminds me of the time someone tried to push the narrative that Sakurai actually hated Persona 5, and forced himself to play it in order to add Joker, who Nintendo was forcing him to add.

That's some Olympics grade mental gymnastics.

You usually see people claiming Sakurai added his own personal favorite to a Nintendo-funded pass and they had absolutely no input whatsoever.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I think piranha plant was a low budget character since there going to all these companies for character deals again

Incineroar feels more low budget. At least the plant has animations that absolutely have to be Piranha Plant's and no one else's.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Still talking about Piranha Plant it seems eh?

 

[Garteam]

I had a strange thought this morning:

Smash, Tekken, and Soul Calibur all seem to have some overlap regarding which companies get guest characters as DLC. Not only did Square-Enix get a guest character in all three games (Hero in Smash, Noctis in Tekken, and 2B in Soul Calibur), but SNK also got the same treatment (Terry in Smash, Geese in Tekken, and Haohmaru in Soul Calibur).

Given that all three games are developed by Namco, so perhaps this isn't a coincidence? If Namco found negotiating with a company was easy for one game, maybe they're put on a sort of "short list" for future crossovers? In this case, are there any companies that have reps in Tekken or Soul Calibur that would be a good fit for Smash?

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Ok, I raise you this, who did plant “steal a slot” from? Judging from the fact Plant is the only DLC character with a Palutena’s Guidance, it seems to have been decided on extremely early on where slots aren’t and have never been a thing.

If you’re admitting that your only argument is “garbage” anyway, what are you even trying to argue?

It "stole a slot" from literally any other character that could have been added, especially all the 1st Parties and already represented 3rd Party series. Slots are a thing, they can't add in characters willy nilly, that's why ARMS and Xenoblade 2 characters were denied because there were no slots left at that point in development.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

That's.... exactly what I'm doing. I think you people are drastically overreacting to any slight criticism of the Plant and acting like we're trying to organize a strike to burn down Nintendo HQ or something.


All I saw was people saying which echo they wanted to demote to an AT, I said I'd rather have the Plant demoted and all of a sudden 20 users jump on me screaming "HOW DARE YOU BULLY MY PRECIOUS PLANT!" and screaming about the mob attacking their Plant, while simultaneously becoming a mob themselves.

I mean you can just say you don't like Plant without having to say "He brought nothing to the game" from an "already well repped series." You don't have to justify your dislike of the character, just say you don't and move on.

 

[Hinata]

That's some Olympics grade mental gymnastics.

You usually see people claiming Sakurai added his own personal favorite to a Nintendo-funded pass and they had absolutely no input whatsoever.

The best part it wasn't even "mental gymnastics". The dude pushing this narrative wasn't just saying this **** based on "inferences he had made". No, the dude claimed he knew Sakurai on a personal enough level to know this information.

 

[Deleted member]

kek/lol/whatever

Most Nintendo fans are kinda what the guy in the video said anyways.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Well, star quality is coincidentally one of the reasons why Sakurai added PP in the first place. He explicitly said that everyone should know what it is. If Sakurai wanted to have some type of bonus character given away for free, it makes sense why he'd want to choose something basic and extremely iconic. Everyone can enjoy it that way.

Even if it wasn't PP, I still think we would've gotten something similar. I highly doubt he stole this particular spot from someone like Issac or Geno.

That's not how star quality works. Iconic != being important.

I mean you can just say you don't like Plant without having to say "He brought nothing to the game" from an "already well repped series." You don't have to justify your dislike of the character, just say you don't and move on.

I did say I disliked Plant initially, the justification came from everyone else screaming at me and trying to justify Plant by attacking other characters. I'm trying to move on, but people like you who keep replying to me are not letting me.

 

[XorahnGaia]

Every Smash game so far as added both fan-favorites and non-fan-favourite, I don't see how Plant is much than G&W or Wii Fitt Trainer. You could argue that at least these two represent new franchise and all that, but I don't see how that matters when Geno or Bandana Dee would pretty be on the same level as PP in terms of expanding the world of Smash.
Honestly, I think the communities just needs to accept that not all the "fan-favorites" are on the same level of demand as K.Rool or Ridley and with limited "slots" they have to inevitably exclude some of them. And the notion that characters like Inkling,Terry and Joker as "random nobodies" just because the community didn't scream for their inclusion in the past 20 years is laughable.
It's fine to like not like every character added to Smash. I didn't know what to make of Plant's inclusion myself last year and maybe i only "forgave" Sakurai for this "crime against the fanbase" because the very first FP character reveal was one of my most wanted. But don't act like the developers never listen to fan requests.

This conversation reminds me of the time someone tried to push the narrative that Sakurai actually hated Persona 5, and forced himself to play it in order to add Joker, who Nintendo was forcing him to add.

That was the same guy on Gamefaqs that stated that Neptunia would be the second FP character, if i recall correctly. That was certainly an odd fellow but he steamed a good ham

 

[shinhed-echi]

How about reading the link I showed you, where Sakurai explicitly stated that Dragon Quest was highly requested for a long time. The truth matters more than the narrative you're trying to push.

This.
And he even specifically addressed that the western fan base was enough to give us Hero’s Eight alt.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I'm not gonna hate on Piranha Plant for getting in over fan wants because nothing is guaranteed and it's not like every character has to be aimed at the hardcore fans.

I will, however, hate on the plant for getting in over any actual character. As has been shown through DLC, characters that didn't necessarily appeal to the hardcore fans like Joker and Terry still have their fandoms. Hell, even a character from a forgotten series like Xenosaga has a small following that are pushing for KOS-MOS. You'd be hard-pressed to find a character that doesn't have that, and yet Sakurai went out of his way to do it.

It's that mentality I'm against. The troll mentality of randomness for ****'s sake.

 

[osby]

The best part it wasn't even "mental gymnastics". The dude pushing this narrative wasn't just saying this **** based on "inferences he had made". No, the dude claimed he knew Sakurai on a personal enough level to know this information.

That sounds like your typical Smash fan.

"Sakurai didn't make my character playable so he hates them and their whole franchise with a burning passion!"

 

[Deleted member]

The best part it wasn't even "mental gymnastics". The dude pushing this narrative wasn't just saying this **** based on "inferences he had made". No, the dude claimed he knew Sakurai on a personal enough level to know this information.

My dad is Sakurai and I can confirm that Nintendo himself held him at gun point until he finished Persona 5.