Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[WingedSupernova]

She just looks odd to me design wise. I'm not saying shes unwelcome but I do feel Wolf should come back and THEN maybe Krystal.

If Krystal gets in and Wolf gets ignored for another game I'mma be salty for a good week or so.

Personally I hope they both get in. I liked using Wolf over both Fox and Falco and Krystal would be a nice refreshing addition.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yeah, that sounds like a really silly reason to not want Krystal in. Wanting Wolf first, I can get. Not interested in the character, I can get. Turned off by her horrific characterization in Command, I can get. But... "cause furry"? All the Star Fox characters fall under that factor, so the point makes no sense.

Regardless, I'm a fan of both gameplay-wise. Wolf already is extremely unique, despite being a semi-clone(though he falls barely under the clone part, but that's due to the fact that like all clones, he used assets from another character as a key focus of his development).

Krystal could be a pretty interesting staff user, as we don't have one in general, and she has magic from her own game, despite Fox mostly using her staff. Ironically she'd work fine with the Landmaster Final Smash, which only was truly odd with Wolf at best

 

[GoodGrief741]

Hey, if Zootopia made a billion dollars, maybe Smash should be trying to appeal to furries.

In all seriousness though, the Krystal thread is one of the biggest on this site, right? She’s got to be pretty popular with more than just furries.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Wolf is fun to watch in PM, but Falco is just beautiful to watch, even if he is more of a clone. I think even three Star Fox reps is pushing it, so I wouldn't be too upset if Wolf didn't get in.

 

[David James]

Wut? They are both humanoid animals. How does adding 1 male humanoid animal as opposed to 1 female humanoid animal mean less furries will be in the game?

I don't want Krystal over Wolf either but that logic hurt me. .-.

Krystal is over sexualized wolf fox and falco are not
I don't hate star fox or anything. The more characters welcome the better, it was just a joke

 

[Deleted member]

SmashChu , you might disagree with my assertion that third-parties help push units, but your argument is that Nintendo engages in notedly arduous negotiations with third-parties, paying out presumably weighty sums to use said characters ostensibly "for the sake of it". Where in your business degree does that make sense?

It's kind of telling that your arguments regarding third-parties have barely shifted in the twelve years we've known them to be part of Smash. You feign objectivity, but it's clear you've dug in your heels a long time ago. You say the costs of the third-parties overshadow the benefits. You speak of third-party inclusion as if it's a failed experiment. As if it didn't increase 200% over the last game. You claim that in all likelihood, Nintendo is losing money on these endeavours. Yet even past expanding the third party presence in the vanilla roster, Nintendo doubling it through post-game, standalone content is a hell of a nonsensical gambit should they not return a profit, given they need to sell primarily on their individual merit. Luckily Smash DLC being Nintendo's most profitable additional content ever at the time would allay these concerns. But no, I'm sure the heavily promoted gaming icons and Smash ballot champion had little to do with those profits. You speak as if third-parties aren't becoming an exponentially increasing part of the roster. Which would make no sense if they were only a fiscal detriment, or even a net neutral.

I suppose you better rush your calculations over to Nintendo and all their financial analysts, consultants and advisors (who have actual objective data) before they waste any more money on third-parties.

And I mean other people have touched on this already, better than I will, but not accounting for fluctuating install bases? Gosh I wonder why the same game sells better on PS4 than XB1. I wonder why the Switch sells better in America than Canada. I mean that's really rudimentary. Why should we believe any commerce-related proclamations you might make?

All I have to say is, dang. Not only was a success, both versions handily beat out everything else including Mario Kart 8, the most popular Wii U game. I know the the 3DS version sounds obvious but the Wii U game sold a few million worse than MK8 and still got #1. That tells me two things,

1. We will get more post-game contents with a longer lifespan than Smash 3DS & Wii U, not the least of which has to do with the Switch planning to have a long lifespan

2. Third-parties are here to stay and this game will emphasize more on them than previous games, especially DLC

I would honestly be surprised if we didn't get a double digit amount of third-parties this game. Everyone wants their character in Smash and you bet Nintendo is going to work their tails off to get to that 15+ million goal.

I made this prediction to reflect who I think might make it although it's more of an ideal roster with characters I think have a chance. I'll revise it to add a few more third-parties.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

I've always have a fascination with Nintendo's Retro based games, if you were to pick 5 characters from the retro games, who would you want?

Takamaru, Ayumi Tachibana, Balloon Fghter, Donbe & Hikari, and Mach Rider.

 

[DNeon]

Hey, if Zootopia made a billion dollars, maybe Smash should be trying to appeal to furries.

In all seriousness though, the Krystal thread is one of the biggest on this site, right? She’s got to be pretty popular with more than just furries.

Thread length is often more associated with more active users than wide spread popularity. Also older threads obviously are longer, and anytime there's news or rumours about a franchise those character threads obviously become more active then too.

Threads like Daisy, Krystal and Isaac, while certainly popular, also have several very active users.

 

[David James]

If you wanna search for star fox or sonic characters, make sure you have safe search on. You'll thank me later

 

[Deleted member]

I don't want Krystal but it has nothing to do with the furry thing.
That's a stupid argument.

 

[David James]

I don't want Krystal but it has nothing to do with the furry thing.
That's a stupid argument.

Its called a joke

 

[YoshiandToad]

I've always have a fascination with Nintendo's Retro based games, if you were to pick 5 characters from the retro games, who would you want?

Balloon Fighter, Bubbles, Prince Sable, Muddy Mole, Lip

I can't say Takamaru particularly interests me as a concept.

 

[Deleted member]

I've always have a fascination with Nintendo's Retro based games, if you were to pick 5 characters from the retro games, who would you want?

Takamaru, Amazon (Pro wrestling), Mike Jones, Mach Rider, Balloon Fighter
The only one I actively want is Takamaru though.

 

[IsmaR]

Its called a joke

Jokes are supposed to be funny.

I've always have a fascination with Nintendo's Retro based games, if you were to pick 5 characters from the retro games, who would you want?

Ice Climbers (lazy way of saying we don't know they're returning for sure)
Balloon Fighter
Takamaru
Mach Rider
Alex/Ryan from River City Ransom (if only to get this theme into the game)

 

[Questionmark222]

I've always have a fascination with Nintendo's Retro based games, if you were to pick 5 characters from the retro games, who would you want?

- Takamaru
- Diskun
- Balloon Fighter
- Mach Rider
- Starman (from Pro Wrestling)

 

[BluePikmin11]

I've always have a fascination with Nintendo's Retro based games, if you were to pick 5 characters from the retro games, who would you want?

Takamaru
Prince Sable
Balloon Fighter
Excitebike
Hanafuda character

That would be all of the retro representation needed for Smash IMO.

 

[David James]

Jokes are supposed to be funny.

I'm not very good at them

 

[GoodGrief741]

This retro character business got me thinking. Would you rather have a lot of new franchises represented with one character? Or would you rather the newcomers be from the established franchises?

Personally I would prefer new franchises because those automatically bring something new to the table, but of course a balance of both would be great.

 

[David James]

I prefer a balance of both

 

[SmashChu]

SmashChu , you might disagree with my assertion that third-parties help push units, but your argument is that Nintendo engages in notedly arduous negotiations with third-parties, paying out presumably weighty sums to use said characters ostensibly "for the sake of it". Where in your business degree does that make sense?

Disagree. No. Your argument is wrong. How about instead of assuming things I've said, you actually prove third party characters increase sales. I suspect you can't which is why you are doing this rather than actually tackling my argument.

It's kind of telling that your arguments regarding third-parties have barely shifted in the twelve years we've known them to be part of Smash. You feign objectivity, but it's clear you've dug in your heels a long time ago. You say the costs of the third-parties overshadow the benefits. You speak of third-party inclusion as if it's a failed experiment. As if it didn't increase 200% over the last game. You claim that in all likelihood, Nintendo is losing money on these endeavours. Yet even past expanding the third party presence in the vanilla roster, Nintendo doubling it through post-game, standalone content is a hell of a nonsensical gambit should they not return a profit, given they need to sell primarily on their individual merit. Luckily Smash DLC being Nintendo's most profitable additional content ever at the time would allay these concerns. But no, I'm sure the heavily promoted gaming icons and Smash ballot champion had little to do with those profits. You speak as if third-parties aren't becoming an exponentially increasing part of the roster. Which would make no sense if they were only a fiscal detriment, or even a net neutral.

I suppose you better rush your calculations over to Nintendo and all their financial analysts, consultants and advisors (who have actual objective data) before they waste any more money on third-parties.

It's nice that you are putting words in my mouth because I've never said that. Where did I ever say they were losing money?

Here is what I am actually saying. Guest characters are not something that Nintendo can get by waving a magic wand. The deals likely cost money both in terms of licensing fees and indirect legal cost. Nintendo will also have to renew all the licenses which hinder a guest characters ability to return (as you'd prioritize new additions over old). This is something no one else is even considering. Will Nintendo want to pay the money to relicense old characters? That's a question no one is tackling.

Oh, and by the by, you are wrong in that Smash DLC was Nintendo's most profitable additional content ever. How about you actually read what Iwata said, not what some image tell you.

Next, I will describe our progress in download sales. This graph shows our download sales by quarter over the last four fiscal years. Despite coming after the holiday season, the fourth quarter had the highest sales of any quarter over the fiscal year ended March 2016. The total for the entire fiscal year was 43.9 billion yen.....This slide shows the top-ranked download titles, excluding downloadable versions of packaged software.

First, it was SALES, not PROFIT. If you want to talk about how I don't know finance, why don't you learn the difference there first? My point has been on cost which reduces profit. Furthermore, this information was as of MARCH 31 2016. This tells you nothing of FY 16 or FY 17 (which hasn't completed yet). Do note that FY was the first time Nintendo ever released DLC for either Mario Kart of Smash. Maybe that's why sales were higher? For comparison, download sales for FY 2017 will be higher.

In our download business, brisk download sales for Nintendo Switch helped push total download sales up to 43.1 billion yen (87% increase on a year-on-year basis).

This information is as of the first 9 months of 2017 (year ends 3/3/1/8). Yours was for a full 12. It will be higher in FY 17. If you are going to talk about how I'm wrong, try and make sure you actually know what youre reading first. Here is the link to the full briefing so people know what is being spoken of.

And I mean other people have touched on this already, better than I will, but not accounting for fluctuating install bases? Gosh I wonder why the same game sells better on PS4 than XB1. I wonder why the Switch sells better in America than Canada. I mean that's really rudimentary. Why should we believe any commerce-related proclamations you might make?

Funny you say that because about a year ago, you were telling me that Smash Bros for Switch was going to be a port and that I was wrong. Now it's been announced and I'm right and you're wrong. Or how about when I told you Issac wasn't going to happen for Smash 4 because they prioritize first party characters over second and this is why Shulk would happen. Guess which character is in Smash 4. So you ask why folks should believe me, but why should they believe you when you have been wrong yourself.

So next time you want to do this, how about first you actually know what you are talking about (mixing profits and sales is pretty bad if you are saying I don't know finance) and maybe look in the mirror before saying someone was wrong in the past. I

 

[FlareHabanero]

SmashChu

Instead of trying to shove all this propaganda in everyone's face, just flat out say that you hate third parties being in Super Smash Bros.

Because that's the impression I'm getting, but you won't admit to it without some argument.

 

[Gagnetar]

Figured I'd just jump in since there was discussion about Krystal as arguably i'm her thread's most active user. In general this site seems less active than it was from the past, as every thread back then seemed to have much larger bases, I mean rool had 2 MILLION views, it's pretty nuts, Krystal was popular throughout her appearence on the site, and now most of the threads are quieter, minus Ridley after the announcement dropped as he's sorta the people's pick despite being given a reason from Sakurai himself as to why he didn't pick him. But for now most of us are just small dedicated users otherwise. The thing is there are definitely still Krystal fans around, the issue is all of them seem emotionally broken, with false assumptions that Zero erased her from the series for reasons I've yet to fully comprehend, and that she's missed out on Smash twice now, There's a few different reasons to support her, but the largest one that bridges the gap is her kit potential, It should be noted that there was a time where Krystal wasn't second fiddle to Wolf, and that according to sourcegaming, people were furious that Wolf got in over her with his semi-clone moveset that people will even try to throw out in their support of him, He's quite fun to play but It should be noted that people want him largely because he's a veteran and people were attached to him for his fighter status, I don't really like cuts either. The general issue is that Star Fox is always one of the last picks for characters, getting Falco as a clone which is a fine choice considering the series, then Brawl comes along and when it was time to pick we got Wolf because he was easier to make, Smash 4 comes along and Wolf is inexplicably cut, doesn't even make DLC, I'm pretty glad now that I think about it that Zero came out after the Smash ballot because it's pretty ridiculous what Krystal's supporters say these days, because support for her was fairly loud during the ballot, had Zero come out I bet people wouldn't have even bothered with her. Anyhoo just figured I'd chime that in.

 

[David James]

I think krystal would have a better chance if wolf was in smash 4, because than he cpuld be cut and fans would not have built the amount of support for wolf he has now.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Will Nintendo want to pay the money to relicense old characters? That's a question no one is tackling.

In the case of Sonic, yes.

 

[DNeon]

Disagree. No. Your argument is wrong. How about instead of assuming things I've said, you actually prove third party characters increase sales. I suspect you can't which is why you are doing this rather than actually tackling my argument.

No. Your argument is wrong. How about instead of assuming that because you said it you were automatically correct, you actually prove that they don't. I suspect you can't which is why you decide to make things peersonal attacks and shroud yourself in superiority rather than actually taking a look at your proofs to deduce if they are as rock solid as you wish to pretend they are.

Seriously man, you're not the only person around here who knows how to structure an argument or look at statistics, and acting like you are only makes it more obvious when you have glaring flaws in your own.

So let's take it from the top:

The best I could find was this poll from Source Gaming (https://sourcegaming.info/2015/03/16/mega-smash-4-poll-analysis-week-1-meet-the-hardcore-community/)

The entire basis for your argument that, despite sales numbers, Smash 4 actually sold worse than Brawl is based on this; a 3000 response opt in survey, distributed only through Smash fans and a Nintendo centric blog. You then extrapolate that data over the entire userbase. If you can't see an issue with that then you shouldn't be bringing stats into the conversation. Yes, it's fair to talk about double purchases having a statistically significant impact on sales. It's not 61% and I will guarantee you that.

If the point is "Guest characters increase sales" then we should see a trend that reflects that. You point out Brawl which outsold Melee. Brawl had guest where Melee didn't. But Smash 4 sold less than Brawl when you adjust for double purchases. But Smash 4 had more characters than Brawl. So we don't have a trend because, if the assumption is true (all else considered equal), then we should see sales continuously rise in sales but we don't see that.

Oh wow, a trend hasn't established over the course of 3 data points? What an incredible outcome. It's almost like there's a tonne of extra analysis that needs to go into those statistics in order to draw any kind of outcome from them.

The hypothesis presented was "Guest characters increase sales." The Null Hypothesis is then "Guest characters do not increase sales." I ONLY have to show that there are guest characters do not increase sales.

Correct, which you have utterly failed to do in a manner which other people have not been able to constest as being heavily contextual.

I don't necessarily need to show the specific impact or what else can cause the trend. I just need to show that it is something else.

Aaaand you've lost any highground you've attempted to build yourself as the advocate of proper debate.

That is not at all how the null hypothesis works. Unless we are arguing 'Guest characters are the only thing that increases sales' then no, you do in fact need to prove that they are an insignificant facotr, not just that other things are more significant. There can be multiple significant factors that affect sales, proving one doesn't disprove any other. You've managed to demonstrate (sketchily) that there is no continuous trend along 3 data points each 7 years apart, on different platforms.

Pretending that is a significant enough find to conclude anything is just trying to use your experience on the subject to justify a shaky-ass assertation.

You are correct that honus is on us to disprove you, but funnily enough, this isn;t actually any of our jobs, otherwise I'd sure as hell be happy to provide some significant statistics if you were willing to help me fork out the money to pay for the study to be done. Making sweeping statements about a set of 3 statistics with 0 justification towards them is dumb enough as is, acting like you're above everyone else because you're doing it is just a higher level of ego, not a higher level of intelligence.

Funny you say that because about a year ago, you were telling me that Smash Bros for Switch was going to be a port and that I was wrong. Now it's been announced and I'm right and you're wrong. Or how about when I told you Issac wasn't going to happen for Smash 4 because they prioritize first party characters over second and this is why Shulk would happen. Guess which character is in Smash 4. So you ask why folks should believe me, but why should they believe you when you have been wrong yourself.

And then to justify yourself further you decide that to throw out an outright Ad Hominem attack in exact same post you decided you wanted to criticise someone for Stawmanning?

Just stop dude.

If you're going to turn a speculative internet forum into a statistics discussion then make sure there are actually proper statistics on hand first. Otherwise, how about you leave us to our "Newcomer Speculation"

 

[David James]

Us nerds can fight for weeks Cause we don't have lives get to back to.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

SmashChu and DNeon , let’s cool it down with personal attacks. Debating is fine but it’s getting to the point of it could be considered flaming. So let’s cool things down, debate things without personal attacks (against ones intelligence), or will will start handing out warnings/infractions.

 

[AEMehr]

Spoiler: Smashchu

The claim that Sonic or Mega Man, characters that received incredibly high positive reception when they were revealed, don't generate interest in a crossover fighting title comes off as asinine and biased. Hype is a huge factor that Nintendo knows Smash fans eat up, so the easiest way to generate hype is fighters. Traditionally, guest fighters are what generate the most interest into any game.

Guest fighters always will gauge more interest in crossover games. I'm pretty sure more heads turned when it was announced Pac-Man was announced to join Smash than when Palutena was. But, Pac-Man probably convinced less people to investing in Smash than say, Cloud or Bayonetta. Those characters were definitely dreams come-true in comparison.

That's not to say a character owned by Nintendo cannot have similar responses. I'm sure many people yearn for a character like Isaac to appear in Smash, and the people that are still hoping to see the likes of King K. Rool or Ridley. But if you're already a Nintendo fan, the likelihood of you already purchasing the game is very high. While someone who has very little interest in the majority of Nintendo's IP outside say, Zelda, would be more interested in seeing characters from games they play more of. Cloud is a pretty good fit for this example I feel, the huge draw-in for Cloud (in my opinion) was the title-bout of Master Sword vs Buster Sword became a reality. It was literally the stuff of fan-fiction, realistically Isaac and most of Nintendo's currently non-playable options don't compare to that for the general player base. It's just pretty common business-sense if you ask me, providing an experience you can't get anywhere else will get people's attention.

Additionally, you can't say the novelty of having Ryu team with Mega Man to fend off Bayonetta and Sonic on Midgar while Waluigi is summoned to assist isn't amusing.
- - -
Comparing sales figures for a Wii title and Wii U title makes no sense. Everyone had a Wii, barely anyone bought a Wii U. Of course it sold worse, nobody is taken aback by that factor. Claiming that this proves that the "selling power of Guest Characters doesn't exist" makes no sense because it works for many other fighters.

Tekken 7 has stayed relevant in terms of sales for quite a long time, and I feel that should be credited to the content they've been offering.
- Akuma from Street Fighter being in the base game had to brought in some SF players to try out Tekken.
- Geese from King of Fighters as DLC #2 had to brought in KoF players to see Geese actually exist in a Arena fighter.
- Noctis from Final Fantasy XV literally brings people from a different genre.

You know a game that didn't sell well? Marvel vs Capcom Infinite.
- Poor presentation.
- Spotty Roster.
- Really good gameplay.
I feel like the general agreement is that if the game had characters people wanted to play as, it wouldn't be in as big of a pickle it's in now. People will play a game if it has their interest, not many people were interested in playing as Gamora over Wolverine.

My point is that characters sell. This is true for absolutely everything regarding fictional media, whether it relates to film, television, books, or video games. If people care about a character they'll buy stuff with them in it.

tl:dr
people usually will buy games for characters/match-ups
why else do you think mario and sonic at the olympic games sold about as well as brawl?

and

nobody bought a wii u we know
- - -
Krystal is weird because her staff has potential but if they brought a Star Fox character I feel that the outcry for veterans during Smash 4's DLC cycle would make Wolf a higher priority (he's also easier to make since they already know what to do for him).

Personally I would prefer Wolf to return but I've got nothing against seeing Krystal. Just no personal investment.

 

[dezeray112]

Here is my 5 picks for a retro Nintendo character:

1. Excitebiker - Excitebike
2. Ayumi Tachibana - Famicom Detective
3. Balloon Fighter - Balloon Fighter
4. Urban Champion - Urban Champion
5. Takamaru

 

[True Blue Warrior]

You know a game that didn't sell well? Marvel vs Capcom Infinite.
- Poor presentation.
- Spotty Roster.
- Really good gameplay.
I feel like the general agreement is that if the game had characters people wanted to play as, it wouldn't be in as big of a pickle it's in now. People will play a game if it has their interest, not many people were interested in playing as Gamora over Wolverine.
.

There is no way that a lack of popular characters in Infinite is the main reason why that game sold poorly, especially when you had the likes of Captain America, Thor, Hulk, Iron Man and especially Spider-Man, the most popular Marvel character of all time.

That game is literally the worst example you could have used. If anything, the art-style along with lack of TV commercials would have more doomed it.

 

[Arcanir]

There is no way that a lack of popular characters in Infinite is the main reason why that game sold poorly, especially when you had the likes of Captain America, Thor, Hulk, Iron Man and especially Spider-Man, the most popular Marvel character of all time.

That game is literally the worst example you could have used. If anything, the art-style along with lack of TV commercials would have more doomed it.

The art-style and mismarketing around the story mode did helped doom it, but to say the roster wasn't a sore point itself is ignoring one of its major critiques leading up to its release.

Just because you have other popular characters in the roster doesn't mean the lack of others will not be noticed, characters like Doctor Doom, Deadpool, and especially the X-Men (who, mind you, have been a part of the franchise since its beginnings) are themselves some of the most beloved characters in the Marvel Parthenon and the MvC franchise as a whole, and their absence was constantly questioned and criticized up until the game's release. It even got to the point where when someone tried to pass off their absence as them being 'just functions', it was ruthlessly mocked for lacking understanding for why people missed those characters in the first place. Add to that characters like Black Panther and Venom being shoved into DLC (with Black Panther in particular being in the game proper in some fashion, but held off), and you had a roster that ended up not being popular among many previous fans.

 

[Enchess]

There is no way that a lack of popular characters in Infinite is the main reason why that game sold poorly, especially when you had the likes of Captain America, Thor, Hulk, Iron Man and especially Spider-Man, the most popular Marvel character of all time.

That game is literally the worst example you could have used. If anything, the art-style along with lack of TV commercials would have more doomed it.

I don't know about that. The roster was at least the reason I didn't buy it. The X-Men were the main draw of that franchise before Infinite from the Marvel side. We get enough good Avengers stuff outside of the game, so they all felt common place. X-Men would've felt really special.

 

[GoodGrief741]

There is no way that a lack of popular characters in Infinite is the main reason why that game sold poorly, especially when you had the likes of Captain America, Thor, Hulk, Iron Man and especially Spider-Man, the most popular Marvel character of all time.

That game is literally the worst example you could have used. If anything, the art-style along with lack of TV commercials would have more doomed it.

If you saw the reactions, not just on hardcore gaming forums but on mainstream platforms as well, when the roster supposedly leaked, people flipped their ****. The roster, both size, selection, and DLC treatment, is absolutely what killed Infinite.

 

[Crap-Zapper]

I've always have a fascination with Nintendo's Retro based games, if you were to pick 5 characters from the retro games, who would you want?

- Lip from Panel De Pon;
I really love the Puzzle League series. My first was Pokémon Puzzle League on N64, and ever since then I fell in love with the system, and looking back to it's root, trying Panel De Pon for myself, liking it as well. The track in Smash 4 was great, and she has an item, now give her a playable role and a stage, this way I would be really happy. Even though it's more of a pipe-dream, but I still support it heavily.

- Balloon Fighter;
Balloon Fighter is always my GO-TO choice for a new Retro representation, and this is because I feel it's a character that could bring something unique and new to the roster. Finally a character that would utulize, and specialize on "Air-Game" mechanics, working as something more focused than say; Kirby and Jiggs. While they are considered the closest to air game fighters we got in the series, Balloon Fighter could heavily be focused around that and alone make a great new addition of fresh air to the roster.

Not only that, but I know he was considered before, and then we got Ice Climbers instead, which was not a bad thing, it made me really like the duo as I do now. Same will be for people with Balloon Fighter, I'm sure. Also, he would be paying tribute to the deceased former president of Nintendo, which is very fitting.


- Pilot Wings;
I feel like one of the few people who played this game back on the N64, and because of that I remember the weird looking cast. Now that Pilot Wings for a first time got recognition in Smash with a stage, and an item maybe it would not be too far out of the relm of giving it a representer? I got no clue on who it could be, as there were no stand-alone obvious characters from the cast.

While that is true, I do hear some say that Lark would be fitting, but honestly, I lean a bit more towards Goose. The reason for that is that he is a tall individual, who could walk lanky, almost like Jack Skellington from "TNBC", and utulize some of the gears used in the series. I just imagine a goofy, lanky dude like Goose being comical.

- Takamaru.

Since Takamaru became an Assist Trophy in the previous installment, while also having a section in Wii U's "Nintendo Land", which to my knowledge was recieved well. This would familiarise his appearence, with NL, Smash AT and an actual re-release of the classic game to the west. Maybe it is time for Takamaru to finally join the roster, and get the Little Mac service.

I know he is quite popular, some even consider Takamaru and Balloon Fighter to be the rivaling pair to appear. I would love both to appear, but could I only pick one I'd go for Balloon Fighter because of my statement further up.

- Muddy Mole;
Honestly, I did not really have anything left for a fifth, so I went with Muddy Mole, not knowing if Doshin the Giant would be considered retro or not, but it's really starting to age, so maybe?

Why Muddy Mole? Well, his design seems fun, throwing bombs and stuff, if we can't have Bomberman, why not the mole itself? I'm not sold on the idea of Excitebiker, Urban Champion or Mach Rider, thus Muddy Mole gets the last spot.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

The art-style and mismarketing around the story mode did helped doom it, but to say the roster wasn't a sore point itself is ignoring one of its major critiques leading up to its release.

Never said that. The only thing that I was countering was the implication that the roster for Infinite was filled with characters that "nobody cared about" even though it's far from the truth. If anything, the biggest difference between MvC3 and Infinite is the latter's base roster lacked newcomer characters and its art direction was unappealing.

I don't know about that. The roster was at least the reason I didn't buy it. The X-Men were the main draw of that franchise before Infinite from the Marvel side. We get enough good Avengers stuff outside of the game, so they all felt common place. X-Men would've felt really special.

Yeah, I actually guess that's fair. I was disappointed that here weren't enough newcomers (with a good balance between fan favourites and unexpected characters) and non-MCU Marvel characters. The roster, along with the art direction and music, made the game feel so boring for me.

If you saw the reactions, not just on hardcore gaming forums but on mainstream platforms as well, when the roster supposedly leaked, people flipped their ****. The roster, both size, selection, and DLC treatment, is absolutely what killed Infinite.

Many MvC fans on the internet absolutely complained about the roster for vanilla Marvel vs Capcom 3 as well, particularly due to the exclusion of characters like Venom, Gambit, Cyclops, Psylocke, Captain Commando, Jin Saotome, Strider Hiryu, Talbain as well as the inclusion of characters like X-23, She-Hulk, MODOK, Sentinel, C. Viper and Felicia. And the was just as huge a controversy over the exclusion of Mega Man. And yet, despite the complaints about the roster online, MvC3 still was a success selling 2 million copies. Internet reactions does not on their own dictate the success or failure of a game.

 

[AEMehr]

There is no way that a lack of popular characters in Infinite is the main reason why that game sold poorly, especially when you had the likes of Captain America, Thor, Hulk, Iron Man and especially Spider-Man, the most popular Marvel character of all time.

That game is literally the worst example you could have used. If anything, the art-style along with lack of TV commercials would have more doomed it.

The game didn't even sell to it's target audience though, which is primarily why it's where it is now. Cap, Thor, Hulk, Iron Man, and Spidey are very common place characters to any Marvel game.

The roster aimed to entice current Marvel Cinematic Universe fans, but it alienated it's previous audience with huge omissions of Legacy characters like Wolverine and Magneto. Infinite is definitely a huge **** show in it's own right, functions and all, but the Roster is a huge factor that cannot be ignored.
Personally I think the game is really fun, but because I couldn't find a character in the roster that I really wanted to play as, I couldn't push myself to support it. I was waiting to see if any dlc characters would interest me, but now it seems that opportunity is going to pass.

I'm definitely using my own situation as the basis for my example, but I feel that there are many others that share the same mindset.
The huge draw of a crossover, is the things crossing over. Your roster will kill you if it disappoints.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

The game didn't even sell to it's target audience though, which is primarily why it's where it is now. Cap, Thor, Hulk, Iron Man, and Spidey are very common place characters to any Marvel game.

The roster aimed to entice current Marvel Cinematic Universe fans, but it alienated it's previous audience with huge omissions of Legacy characters like Wolverine and Magneto. Infinite is definitely a huge **** show in it's own right, functions and all, but the Roster is a huge factor that cannot be ignored.
Personally I think the game is really fun, but because I couldn't find a character in the roster that I really wanted to play as, I couldn't push myself to support it. I was waiting to see if any dlc characters would interest me, but now it seems that opportunity is going to pass.

I'm definitely using my own situation as the basis for my example, but I feel that there are many others that share the same mindset.
The huge draw of a crossover, is the things crossing over. Your roster will kill you if it disappoints.

I still can't believe the "function" comments by Combofiend. I mean that is just stupid and hilarious. There was even a Ultimate Function vs Function video made to mock said comment.

 

[N3ON]

Disagree. No. Your argument is wrong. How about instead of assuming things I've said, you actually prove third party characters increase sales. I suspect you can't which is why you are doing this rather than actually tackling my argument.


It's nice that you are putting words in my mouth because I've never said that. Where did I ever say they were losing money?

Here is what I am actually saying. Guest characters are not something that Nintendo can get by waving a magic wand. The deals likely cost money both in terms of licensing fees and indirect legal cost. Nintendo will also have to renew all the licenses which hinder a guest characters ability to return (as you'd prioritize new additions over old). This is something no one else is even considering. Will Nintendo want to pay the money to relicense old characters? That's a question no one is tackling.

Oh, and by the by, you are wrong in that Smash DLC was Nintendo's most profitable additional content ever. How about you actually read what Iwata said, not what some image tell you.

Next, I will describe our progress in download sales. This graph shows our download sales by quarter over the last four fiscal years. Despite coming after the holiday season, the fourth quarter had the highest sales of any quarter over the fiscal year ended March 2016. The total for the entire fiscal year was 43.9 billion yen.....This slide shows the top-ranked download titles, excluding downloadable versions of packaged software.

First, it was SALES, not PROFIT. If you want to talk about how I don't know finance, why don't you learn the difference there first? My point has been on cost which reduces profit. Furthermore, this information was as of MARCH 31 2016. This tells you nothing of FY 16 or FY 17 (which hasn't completed yet). Do note that FY was the first time Nintendo ever released DLC for either Mario Kart of Smash. Maybe that's why sales were higher? For comparison, download sales for FY 2017 will be higher.

In our download business, brisk download sales for Nintendo Switch helped push total download sales up to 43.1 billion yen (87% increase on a year-on-year basis).

This information is as of the first 9 months of 2017 (year ends 3/3/1/8). Yours was for a full 12. It will be higher in FY 17. If you are going to talk about how I'm wrong, try and make sure you actually know what youre reading first. Here is the link to the full briefing so people know what is being spoken of.


Funny you say that because about a year ago, you were telling me that Smash Bros for Switch was going to be a port and that I was wrong. Now it's been announced and I'm right and you're wrong. Or how about when I told you Issac wasn't going to happen for Smash 4 because they prioritize first party characters over second and this is why Shulk would happen. Guess which character is in Smash 4. So you ask why folks should believe me, but why should they believe you when you have been wrong yourself.

So next time you want to do this, how about first you actually know what you are talking about (mixing profits and sales is pretty bad if you are saying I don't know finance) and maybe look in the mirror before saying someone was wrong in the past. I

The classic SmashChu argument is staking one side of a hypothetical, then believing you're in the right because the other side can't be empirically proven, as if your side can. As if your opinion suffices as far as evidence is concerned. As if you're dealing with raw data that the rest of us don't have access to. There's no possibility in which the opposition can be right when inaccessible evidence is needed for one side, but opinion is all that's required for the other.

I know you think you've provided actual evidence, but with the logic you're employing via your sales argument, the same correlation could be made that Smash has never seen the same success it had as when it added Snake. So obviously the key to maximum potential profit is including Snake. Basically I found these two puzzle pieces and I'm jamming them together regardless of the rest of the picture.

I also know you're going to take this reply as me "not being able" to provide a true rebuttal. The truth of the matter is I've learned, arguing does little, just waiting until Smash proves you wrong is a much more effective method. So, we'll see. Hold on to your thoughts that you've a better understanding of the business than those actually conducting it, and I guess I'll tag you upon the reveal of the outcome. Or you can tag me.

In the meantime you may throw my inaccurate and misrepresented theories in my face (which is pretty ironic that you want to play the "you were wrong" game) to validate your doctrine, but the part you're missing is that those were predictions. I never stood on my soapbox and claimed full authority on the matter. I entertain the possibility I'm wrong (and the few times I don't, like with the Switch's release date, I'm very upfront about my inaccuracy), because I'm only putting forth the possibility I'm right, not the unequivocal truth, which are the terms under which you, for some reason, operate. But I suppose it shouldn't come as a surprise if you're unable to tell the difference between theorizing an outcome and making a definitive statement. Historically you haven't been great at not dealing in absolutes.

And also, you really don't see how claiming Isaac got excluded simply because he was "second-party" only compounds your very easily-identifiable purist bias? Also, are you using a pre-release roster to discredit me? That's not a good look. You realize that literally no one in the world predicted a 100% accurate roster, yes? Oh and, fwiw, Shulk was also on virtually all my rosters. Selective memory, I suppose.

 

[David James]

This is getting uglier than the fire emblem waifu wars

 

[Morbi]

This is getting uglier than the fire emblem waifu wars

Those waifu were beautiful, not ugly, fam.

There is no way that a lack of popular characters in Infinite is the main reason why that game sold poorly, especially when you had the likes of Captain America, Thor, Hulk, Iron Man and especially Spider-Man, the most popular Marvel character of all time.

That game is literally the worst example you could have used. If anything, the art-style along with lack of TV commercials would have more doomed it.

It actually is, when 90% of them were recycled from a better game. You have to evolve and include more, just reselling the same game with different mechanics is not acceptable and despite what some believe, if Smash did the same, it would sell observably worse. This I promise you.