Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[PhantomShab]

Donkey Kong is one of Nintendo's best selling franchises. It has 3 characters.
Fire Emblem has 7. Hell, ****ing ZELDA has 6!
We don't need more Fire Emblem until we get Dixie Kong, Funky Kong, Cranky Kong, Impa, Tingle, Midna, and Skull Kid.

B-but we need Byleth and Edgelord and Claude Speed and a few more Marth clones! Just look at how few Fire Emblem characters we have. We need more. MORE!

 

[Will]

Hell, ****ing ZELDA has 6!

And half of them are Links. Links that are near-identical to each other. That will always irk me, there's so much potential in Majora's Mask, Breath of the Wild, and Wind Waker to make all 3 stand out on their one to be semi-clones of each other at worst.

 

[Deleted member]

Donkey Kong is one of Nintendo's best selling franchises. It has 3 characters.
Fire Emblem has 7. Hell, ****ing ZELDA has 6!
We don't need more Fire Emblem until we get Dixie Kong, Funky Kong, Cranky Kong, Impa, Tingle, Midna, and Skull Kid.

And with those additions, DK would still have a lower amount of characters than FE. Seeing the franchises based on characters is quite shortsighted when Zelda has one of the highest amount of stages and items in the game, FE only has 3 stages (with 2 being kinda derivative) and an item plus 3 characters are based on Marth.

Plus, Mother is one of the series with the lowest amount of sales and it has two characters, a few items and about 4 stages. We never hear people complain about how Mother has more characters than franchises like Splatoon or Xenoblade.

 

[Idon]

and a few more Marth clones

I don't exactly think anyone is asking for more Marth clones.

In fact, I don't think most people ask for clones to begin with (outside I guess, Octoling fans).

 

[Kokiden]

Zelda being such a huge franchise wasting characters on Link clones has always annoyed me. Missed potential.

Impa, Ruto, Nabooru, Skull Kid, heck even Malon from Lon Lon Ranch would've been better alternatives than the Link clones we've got.

Zelda only has 3 reps. This is a franchise that has not been represented well at all despite being one of Nintendo's biggest names.

 

[Nekoo]

Imagine thinking that X is more deserving than Y when we got a random as **** plant, Muh P5 on switch when, Muh Square is stingy vol2 , Boomer.jpeg and who's an SNK.


SPOILER alert. No one is more deserving than another and any Characters that marked the gaming world a way or another is eligible and deserve to be in as much as your most wanted. First party or not. FE or not.

 

[Will]

B-but we need Byleth and Edgelord and Claude Speed and a few more Marth clones! Just look at how few Fire Emblem characters we have. We need more. MORE!

Imagine actually wanting more Marth clones.

 

[N3ON]

I thought I'd get to an icon request or two, but y'all just quoted me instead of sending DMs like I asked, so instead I made Sirfetch'd.

I think we can all agree it was the right call.

 

[Will]

I thought I'd get to an icon request or two, but y'all just quoted me instead of sending DMs like I asked, so instead I made Sirfetch'd.

View attachment 247342

I think we can all agree it was the right call.

Damn he's looking smug as ****, I love it.

 

[Idon]

I thought I'd get to an icon request or two, but y'all just quoted me instead of sending DMs like I asked, so instead I made Sirfetch'd.

View attachment 247342

I think we can all agree it was the right call.

These smash leeks sure are getting crazy.

 

[PhantomShab]

I don't exactly think anyone is asking for more Marth clones.

Given FE's track record, they might as well be.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

As they should. Who 'deserves' to be in over another is subjective af.

But Fire Emblem bad, old game good! Luckily a compromise can be found by adding oldschool FE characters like Lyn, Alm, Celica, Hector, Arvis, etc

 

[PSIGuy]

Implying taking slots is a real thing

Characters take resources, and resources are used to make characters. So no, it literally IS a thing. Unless you think it's impossible to spend rent money on booze, because if you spent it on booze it's no longer rent money

Alph's unjustified exclusion from the clone club has nothing to do with Fire Emblem, because:
A.) Alph was done this way back in 4, which brought back , who was going to be a costume like / originally and Alph. Alph, in the end, was the only one of the costumes who wasn't converted into a clone. No reason has been stated for why he's been given this treatment to the day, and it's unreasonable to blame it on Fire Emblem when Kid Icarus and Dr. Mario should also be responsible for some reason.
B.) IIRC, Chrom's inclusion was based off demand from the Smash Ballot, like other characters such as Ridley, K. Rool, Simon, etc. If Alph wasn't decloned, I assume Alph didn't get that far in the ballot to get decloned. That isn't favoritism from Sakurai, that's the people, the audience, the fans, demanding Chrom.

Those resources were used on Lucina over Alph. If they planned for Alph to be treated like the others... and Alph ends up not being treated like the others... it's pretty simple to assume they ran out of resources (whether it be time or sometihng else), which was instead spent on Lucina as higher priority. The fan ballot thing, whatever, it's not like we have the results ourselves. If he decides which ballot presences to directly respond to, that's still favoritism anyways.

Roy was heavily requested to return from Melee after a 15 year absence, similar to . The same could've been said for Snake and Wolf, adding the fact they brought back , but Roy was ultimately chosen. Corrin though, I agree with. I will never agree with the decision to include Corrin. The Smash 4 DLC was half veterans, though. Blaming it all on Fire Emblem for having 2/7 pieces of the pie is absurd.

So you agree Roy was picked over Wolf or Snake or any other veterans who would've been popular, then? Again, resources that could've been used to add a relevant and popular semi-clone (Wolf, who actually reappeared in Star Fox Zero while Roy's been absent from everything since his debut) were used on FE, because it gets special treatment.

Smash Bros. may have gotten Fire Emblem localized internationally, but Fire Emblem's heavy revival in 2013 was all thanks to Awakening. Other series dying shouldn't be blamed by the hands of Fire Emblem. Nintendo simply chose to not make more Golden Sun games. Nintendo was stupid with what direction they should've taken Chibi-Robo in. And sometimes they just forget games exist in general, such as Sin & Punishment and Custom Robo.
Hell, Smash Bros. only revived one series, and it's because Sakurai decided to make the game himself. You don't see Mother 4, Punch-Out, Duck Hunt 2, a new original Castlevania, or a new Donkey Kong Country with K. Rool's return. Bringing in characters isn't usually with the intent to revive franchises.

Smash presence basically guarantees the characters receive some minimum level of attention which makes it far easier for them to get anything new. That should go without saying.

It's pretty disingenuous to claim that Smash relevance has never done anything for those listed franchises, too. Mother had EB0 brought into the West because Smash kept interest in the series alive, just as it helped introduce people to the series in 64. If Mother 3 ever gets released, you can thank Lucas somehow appearing in Brawl, being popular enough to appear as Smash 4 DLC and returning in Ultimate for being a part of that. Konami actually came out with Castlevania collections around the time Simon and Richter got in, one for the PS4 and now one on Switch, which is about 100% more Castlevania related content than they were putting out before Smash. Punch-Out was put in Smash BECAUSE it was brought back so I don't know why you're listing it with the others. And it's literally only been a bit longer than a year since K. Rool was put in Smash so obviously they haven't developed a full god damn game to put him in in that time. Unless you count the rumor that Retro DID want to bring him back in the Tropical Freeze port, which literally would be bringing the character back due to popular demand.

The only "newborn" that's "malnourished" is Astral Chain in terms of sales. However, it's already gotten a nominee in the Game Awards, so in that regards it's only starving in financial reception, not critical reception.

Or, you know, XB2, or ARMS, who also did very well on Switch and would benefit from Smash recognition, while also fleshing out different game universes?

It isn't. It never has been. If "Everyone is Here!" never happened, I guarantee you a lot of FE characters would've been cut.

If you're going to point fingers, I'd suggest pointing them at Sakurai, the person who chooses what goes in the game, not the series he chooses. And in the end, Sakurai chooses whatever he damn pleases, as long as they're fun to make or whatever nonsense that was about.

EDIT: In the end, you still don't have to support Fire Emblem characters if you don't want to. But maybe instead of creating convoluted reasons as to why they should never ever set foot in Smash again, it'd be easier to just say "I don't want another Fire Emblem character" and leave the argument at that because that's respectable enough.

It should go without saying that any criticism of Smash is criticism of Sakurai's decisionmaking. Yes, it's ultimately down to his bias, which I'm arguing is stupid and tonedeaf. And I don't see why just saying I don't want another FE character is better than explaining why I don't want another FE character. It's the same post, but with a glimpse into the thought process behind it.

 

[Will]

Given FE's track record, they might as well be.

Given the record of Links, Zelda might as well too. Toy Link, Retro Link, gotta get more.

 

[PhantomShab]

It's funny that people have actually convinced themselves that limited slots somehow arent a thing and that deserving isn't a thing either.

Characters cant just keep being added in forever and you cant tell me with a straight face that in a Nintendo fighting game Mario wouldn't deserve to be in over someone like Lester the Unlikely.

 

[Ben Holt]

Given the record of Links, Zelda might as well too. Toy Link, Retro Link, gotta get more.

I actually wouldn't mind Toon Zelda. As long as Tetra comes with her. Supposedly, she was planned for Brawl.

 

[Deleted member]

I actually wouldn't mind Toon Zelda. As long as Tetra comes with her. Supposedly, she was planned for Brawl.

She would've worked similar to pre-Smash 4 Zelda but...

 

[Idon]

Given FE's track record, they might as well be.

"They" seem to be asking for characters that aren't Marth clones given that all the people asking for those characters seem to have a general idea as to a unique moveset and that the characters asked for have little to no way to fit into the Marth swordsmen mold.

Really, people ask for characters they like regardless of another characters is already in. If a related character makes the cut, they suddenly won't stop wanting the previous character.

 

[Will]

Characters take resources, and resources are used to make characters. So no, it literally IS a thing. Unless you think it's impossible to spend rent money on booze, because if you spent it on booze it's no longer rent money

I'm assuming we're talking about stealing slots. Or slots in general. Limited space for only a certain amount of characters is expected. We're not stupid, though I expect someone to make a cocky "Oh, I'm not so su~~~~re" type response to that.

Those resources were used on Lucina over Alph. If they planned for Alph to be treated like the others... and Alph ends up not being treated like the others... it's pretty simple to assume they ran out of resources (whether it be time or sometihng else), which was instead spent on Lucina as higher priority. The fan ballot thing, whatever, it's not like we have the results ourselves. If he decides which ballot presences to directly respond to, that's still favoritism anyways.

And Dr. Mario and Dark Pit, can't forget those two. We don't know the ballot, so we don't know how high certain characters placed. However, if Chrom did make it in, I'm assuming his presence in the ballot was significant enough to retcon Sakurai saying he won't add any more Fire Emblem characters post-Corrin.

Alph still being out of the Echo party sucks though, there's no justification for doing so. I cry every time.

So you agree Roy was picked over Wolf or Snake or any other veterans who would've been popular, then?

Taking out Snake, I assumed all missing veterans were equal to each other.

Again, resources that could've been used to add a relevant and popular semi-clone

Like Roy.

(Wolf, who actually reappeared in Star Fox Zero while Roy's been absent from everything since his debut)

Didn't Star Fox Zero come out after the last DLC was announced? Fire Emblem Fates/Awakening DLC and Fire Emblem Heroes for Roy's reappearance in the series after FE6. Saying Wolf is more popular is unprecedented. Are you saying that like it's objective fact, or are you bringing your opinion into it?

Smash presence basically guarantees the characters receive some minimum level of attention which makes it far easier for them to get anything new. That should go without saying.

Yes.

It's pretty disingenuous to claim that Smash relevance has never done anything for those listed franchises, too. Mother had EB0 brought into the West because Smash kept interest in the series alive, just as it helped introduce people to the series in 64. .

Doesn't sound like Smash reviving a series as we were discussing, more like Smash generalized the series (in the West)? While Smash introduced EarthBound, that had no influence on the games' development themselves, as Mother 3 was already being put into development at the time back when it was EB 64. I'm also unsure on if the fan translation was utterly influenced on Lucas getting in Smash. That requires research on Tomato.

Konami actually came out with Castlevania collections around the time Simon and Richter got in, one for the PS4 and now one on Switch, which is about 100% more Castlevania related content than they were putting out before Smash.

I'm skeptical that was because of Smash.

Punch-Out was put in Smash BECAUSE it was brought back so I don't know why you're listing it with the others.

Because that's the other way around. That's not Smash lifting a series on its feet, that's a series being lifted back on its feet being thrown in Smash.

And it's literally only been a bit longer than a year since K. Rool was put in Smash so obviously they haven't developed a full god damn game to put him in in that time. Unless you count the rumor that Retro DID want to bring him back in the Tropical Freeze port, which literally would be bringing the character back due to popular demand.

I'm just giving examples here. You get the gist with the other ones, don't you? Maybe an F-Zero example would damage my soul by facing me with the reality that Miyamoto needs game gimmicks to live.

Or, you know, XB2, or ARMS, who also did very well on Switch and would benefit from Smash recognition, while also fleshing out different game universes?

Time restraints are a *****. And sadly, with Spirit updates, deconfirm theory is looking slightly more plausible at the moment. I'd love to be optimistic, but things are looking bleak for the 2017/2018 game characters. Fire Emblem 3 Houses would've been in that boat too, but it was in development hell for so long that it outlasted the other games. It'd be totally fine if Rex or Spring Man did come in though.

And I don't see why just saying I don't want another FE character is better than explaining why I don't want another FE character. It's the same post, but with a glimpse into the thought process behind it.

It's odd, these arguments about Fire Emblem being innocent or guilty feels almost like a political divide at this point. Also, the thought process leads into long, drawn-out arguments like this and I frankly need sleep before my 8 AM classes today.

 

[Diddy Kong]

FE characters have literally taken slots in every possible context
Echo fighters? Picked over Alph (Chrom, Lucina), who would've been the second Pikmin representative.
DLC characters? Picked over any other veterans (Roy) and any other contemporary debutees who could've used the popularity boost way more than they did back in the Wii U days
New characters? Literally every single game has gotten someone new in, characters whose franchises might not have died if they had gotten a fraction of the love FE did.


"Well, at first we just gave them all the special treatment because the franchise really needed it to succeed, but now that the franchise is succeeding we give special treatment because it's doing well."Boy is that a catch 22 if I've ever heard one.

Or we could give that special treatment to other franchises and spread the love. Ween Fire Emblem off of the supple nipple of Smash exposure and let one of Nintendo's malnourised newborns have a sup. It's a fully grown franchise. FE is 29 years old, it should not still be living at home mooching off of it's foster parent.

Chrom was easily more requested than Alph. And took less work also, Roy with Lucina's sword properties, and Ike's Up B (more or less). Chrom is also lucky that he wasn't already part of Roy's alt costumes, like Alph. However , it's a valid argument.

Let me just say it like this, I like Fire Emblem, I like Three Houses, I like Byleth, and I don't see another big opportunity for a first party character that's likely outside of Byleth. I would like Dixie or Impa or Isaac more, but I gotta be realistic.

 

[GKMLTTSB]

People want Three Houses stuff. People want more Pokemon stuff. People want Zelda to finally get something new.

All Hilda Fighters' Pass.

Three Houses rep? check. (Make her a... Pegasus Knight or something. Google says that's a thing.)
Gen V Pokemon rep? check.
Wasted potential with respect to a new Zelda rep? check. (Gotta maintain tradition) >_>

 

[Will]

Three Houses rep? check. (Make her a... Pegasus Knight or something. Google says that's a thing.)

imagine not making Hilda a Wyvern Lord

 

[Diddy Kong]

Hilda, Hilda, Hilda!

 

[osby]

It's funny how sales=character number argument is only ever used against Fire Emblem.

I don't see anyone complaining about Metroid having more characters than Donkey Kong or Animal Crossing having less than Star Fox.

 

[N3ON]

It's funny how sales=character number argument is only ever used against Fire Emblem.

I don't see anyone complaining about Metroid having more characters than Donkey Kong or Animal Crossing having less than Star Fox.

If any of those series had seven characters people would be complaining about it though.

The only series that wouldn't generate ire with a comparable quantity are Mario, Pokemon and Zelda.

 

[Ben Holt]

If any of those series had seven characters people would be complaining about it though.

The only series that wouldn't generate ire with a comparable quantity are Mario, Pokemon and Zelda.

We still need Tom Nook.
Edit: And K.K. Slider.
That's the perfect Animal Crossing roster.
Edit 2: Also wouldn't get mad at 7 Sonic characters. Yea, he's third party but that doesn't matter to me.
Sonic, Shadow, Tails, Knuckles, Eggman, Silver, Amy.

 

[Calamitas]

It just isn't Smash speculation without people bellyaching about Fire Emblem every five minutes.

 

[BlackInk]

Big man in the sky don't lie if his name is Sak-u-rai.


There's a lot of people who considerably "deserve" to be in a crossover after so much fan demand and length of time of said demand. Some people get privileges though. Those privileges are like people who skip the line. And I believe Byleth just happens to be one of those lucky suckers.

Did Incineroar 'deserve' to be in Smash before the boomer king Geno himself? Nope, but goddamn does that shiny Pokemon logo need arbitrary demands

I wonder why Incineroar out of...
Sakurai: Wrestlers!
Ok...

 

[N3ON]

Edit 2: Also wouldn't get mad at 7 Sonic characters. Yea, he's third party but that doesn't matter to me.
Sonic, Shadow, Tails, Knuckles, Eggman, Silver, Amy.

You might not but other people would, especially if Sonic is at seven and then the next closest are still Castlevania and SF at two.

I'd say you could maybe get to four Sonic characters without people really taking umbrage with the disparity.

 

[Ben Holt]

You might not but other people would, especially if Sonic is at seven and then the next closest are still Castlevania and SF at two.

I'd say you could maybe get to four Sonic characters without people really taking umbrage with the disparity.

Sonic, Shadow, Tails, and Knux, then.
Though I really wanna throw Eggman in there.
Edit: I also can take more reps from other Third Parties.
Mega Man: Proto Man, Bass, Wily, X, and Zero.
Final Fantasy: Zack Fair, Sephiroth, Zidane, Black Mage, Noctis, and Chokobo
Pac-Man: Ms. Pac-Man, Pac-Man Jr. (Semiclone a la Young Link), and Blinky with Hero-style alts for Pinky, Inky, and Clyde.
Castlevania: Trevor, Alucard, and Dracula.
Metal Gear: Gray Fox and Raiden.
Street Fighter: Chun-Li, Guile, and Akuma.
I could keep going.

 

[Calamitas]

Edit 2: Also wouldn't get mad at 7 Sonic characters. Yea, he's third party but that doesn't matter to me.
Sonic, Shadow, Tails, Knuckles, Eggman, Silver, Amy.

Imaging listing seven Sonic characters for Smash, and not even thinking about Blaze, smh

 

[Ben Holt]

Imaging listing seven Sonic characters for Smash, and not even thinking about Blaze, smh

Oh, I thought about Blaze.
And Espio and Metal Sonic. But I limited it to 7 like Fire Emblem.

 

[GKMLTTSB]

Seven Sonic characters...

It's like going to a restaurant with an amazing menu, being told you can order anything you want, and then going "Eh? Just give me 7 Chili Dogs, bro."

Look at SEGA's menu... Look at it!

 

[Jassassino]

Zelda being such a huge franchise wasting characters on Link clones has always annoyed me. Missed potential.

Impa, Ruto, Nabooru, Skull Kid, heck even Malon from Lon Lon Ranch would've been better alternatives than the Link clones we've got.

Zelda only has 3 reps. This is a franchise that has not been represented well at all despite being one of Nintendo's biggest names.

Yeah Skull Kid and Urbosa are both worthy additions to Ultimate. LOZ deserves more variety. Especially with the characters and variety in Mario Reps from Daisy to Piranha Plant.

 

[Ben Holt]

Yeah Skull Kid and Urbosa are both worthy additions to Ultimate. LOZ deserves more variety. Especially with the characters and variety in Mario Reps from Daisy to Piranha Plant.

Urbosa over Revali and Mipha? Nah!

 

[GKMLTTSB]

Any of the champions over Vaati? >_>

 

[Ben Holt]

Any of the champions over Vaati? >_>

Vaati over Impa?!

 

[PSIGuy]

It just isn't Smash speculation without people bellyaching about Fire Emblem every five minutes.

I'll quit bellyaching when Sakurai personally apologizes in a dedicated 5 minute portion of a direct, like when Rex didn't get in. Except instead of adding songs and spirits he randomly takes some away. And the bonus costume for Fighter's Pass 2 is a costume for the Mii Swordsman wearing a shirt saying "NO FE" and wielding a picket sign with a big X over Marth's face as the picture.

 

[Iko MattOrr]

Seven Sonic characters...

It's like going to a restaurant with an amazing menu, being told you can order anything you want, and then going "Eh? Just give me 7 Chili Dogs, bro."

Look at SEGA's menu... Look at it!

I agree that 7 are too much, but on the other hand, most Sonic characters have potential to be pretty unique moveset-wise.
Well, partially unique, because I'm sure they'd all get some spindash-like moves no matter who the character is, but still...

If I had to choice more Sonic characters, I'd go for Knuckles and Amy only, because they're the ones I feel they fit the best in a fighting game.

Tails is cool but unless you play hard on gimmicks, there isn't much he can do aside of swinging his tails like a sword and rolling like Sonic. If they have to put in a gimmicky character based on inventions, I'd rather get Prof. E. Gadd.
Eggman is cool too but too much similar to Bowser Jr in concept, so it's low priority for me.
I'd like Blaze too because I like the character, but gameplay-wise I fear she would be pretty basic like Sonic (but with flames); though her fighting style could be spectacular if they make her fight while "dancing".
Shadow would be cool as well, but maybe more as an echo... I dunno, the thing I like the most of Shadow is a potential Radical Highway stage more than the character himself.

 

[Jassassino]

Urbosa over Revali and Mipha? Nah!

Over Mipha hell yeah, Revali could be a tonne of fun though. Multi jumps, strong projectiles, good taunts.