Newbie Mafia 12 FMP Fumoffu!: Game over!

[X1-12]

@Mod: Request rule change to 48 hour prods.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

@Fynal

so you think JTB is town even though you voted him AND put him at L-1?

contradiction much?

 

[Fynal]

@Fynal

so you think JTB is town even though you voted him AND put him at L-1?

contradiction much?

.
..
...
..
.

have you read anything i said between my L-1 vote and the post you're talking about?

 

[th3kuzinator]

Cause you kinda have a tendency to distract the town. For example, in RG mafia you were attacking Ryker early on, correct? In that game I saw you attack Ryker simply because he attacked you. In the end, it was a distracting case that shed eyes of suspicion your w
ay when it really shouldn't of.

This is just an example, but it should help make things clearer.

Btw, my actually read on you as of now is null, as what you're saying about pressuring others as much as possible does line up with what you said early. Still though, how much "pressure" can you really give someone if you're hardly even going to grill them?

---

Now, despite the fact that I consider Fynal's reaction to be a tell of a newbie-townie, I'm still cautious of him for two things right now:

1. Him putting someone at L_1 and then LOLing about how someone might hammer him. That . . . tells me that he might of already known about the dangers of putting someone at L_1, and thus lying about how he didn't realize that it was really bad for him to put someone at L_1.

2. Him deliberately using the noobcard as of late.

@Ran, Gova: Thoughts on this?

---

TBS, for future reference, you shouldn't be afraid to vote. Voting is an easy way to let town know where you stand.

Btw, what has happened to your read on me?

---

Since I feel that discussion is good, I feel like I should pressure an inactive, which would be Gatlin at this point. Especially knowing that he's not one to be inactive on smashboards. So . . .

Vote: Gatlin

Let me go out of my way to create a lengthy post commenting on things I found scummy, just to say they are still null reads and don't deserve my attention of the things I am calling them out on.

Let me play IC and remind TBS to not be afraid to vote, despite him already being told this awhile back.

And instead let me place a vote on Gatlin because, as an IC, I think pressuring inactives is good. I also don't feel like pursing the other people who have done scummy things but are null for some reason. This vote is not opportunistic in the slightest.

Unvote; Vote Sworddancer.

Tired of waiting. Soup, join me. I know just who to look at upon his scum flip too.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Good enough, Seik?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

@Fynal

yes i have, i'm just saying, you put the guy as town even though you were the one voting him.

@Kuz

personally, i'm looking at Ranmaru and JTB, but Sword is just as good, i don't like his play at all, and besides, he isn't being very IC'ish.

unvote vote Sword

 

[th3kuzinator]

I wonder who the third person is who is always lurking the thread.

Everyone on this player list has their thing not on invisible except me and sword.

Kool

 

[Fynal]

aww kuz, you coulda waited... er nvm, this kinda took me a while didn't it
oh well here goes

during the inflation/deflation of JTB's bandwagon, i see this.
<aa> sword you look scummy because of X and Y
<sword> ur wrong, but ur smart. kuz, what do you think of ran? I'm paranoid.
...what? i don't see reasons here, i see swords using his IC position to ward off aa's accusation without a defense. and then swords claims paranoia, not reasons, as why kuz should look into ran. when questioned, swords says (here) the exact same thing about aa, and a bunch of meta stuff followed by a few reasons and a lack of vote.

you follow this up with some scum-hunt-esque questions, but no voting, unless i missed something, and more asking outside opinions than asking questions at the people themselves.

and then #554. ill be honest i skimmed this one when i first saw it, but looking back i see, to a lesser experienced degree, what kuz sees in his above post. dat Gatlin vote.

Unvote
Vote: Sworddancer.

@soup, fyi, you didn't type "Sworddancer." so its not gona get counted atm...

 

[Seikend]

Ughh. It looks good, but on the other hand I don't want to just play Follow-Kuz all day, y'know?

I went with you for the JTB wagon, took your advice for Fynal. I don't know, just feels like I'm relying on you too much.

Make sense?

 

[th3kuzinator]

I am not making you comply with me. Do whatever you feel is in the best interest of town.

Besides JTB, who else would you be okay with lynching and why.

@X1: Seik read.

 

[asianaussie]

So sorry about inactivity...

Out of JTB/Sword, definitely Sword. Sword has been my top scum pick for a couple pages now. JTB has done a fair bit of scumhunting, whereas Sword is far more conservative, especially towards Fynal, who he has reason to FoS or even vote (which I don't believe he has done, but I haven't looked at the count for a while). I would say that if Sword is scum, Fynal is as well.

@ Soup

Town read: Soup, X1
Null leaning town: Gatlin, Soren, kuz, JTB
Null: Fynal, TBS, Gova
Null leaning scum: Sworddancer, Ran, Seikend

I haven't read deeply enough to really pin down Sword, so I'm not going to bandwagon and vote him.

FoS Sworddancer

also, I'm going inactive for a bit, V/LA or whatever.

 

[Seikend]

Ran and Swords.

In terms of priority: Ran>Swords>JTB.

Explained Ran and JTB previously.

Swords due to your case.

 

[Fynal]

right here bro.

regardless of that, do you have something else, besides a lack of FoS/vote, to connect us? because i see a lot of lacking FoS/vote from sword, with the exception of Gatlin, whose conveniently not posting much at all. and you have me listed as null.

 

[asianaussie]

After some back-reading:

I notice Sword doesn't actively say much about Fynal. I retract my statement concerning Sword and Fynal being linked. In fact, he hasn't said much proactively except for his recent prod on Gatlin, who I believe is getting replaced (?). My suspicion remains there. I didn't see that FoS either.

His only thing is a paranoia towards Ran due to previous games. I don't know what that counts for.

The edit was changing some grammar stuff in the first paragraph.

 

[Fynal]

I think the reason why sword FoS'd me but not other people was that it was pretty clear that i was gonna get pounded for my serious mistake, so he felt it was ok to add his bit without drawing attention to himself. Later on, when people were spreading the scumhunting a little more, he wanted to stay less noticable.

 

[Gova]

@AA, you should explain your read on Soren and Gatlin, especially considering that they are inactive and have barely posted. I'm interested in why they are leaning town to you.

 

[asianaussie]

It's exactly that - I feel that being overly inactive draws even more attention than active posting, and scum wouldn't want that.

Is Gatlin being replaced?

 

[Gova]

That's wifom. It's really a null tell imo. Anyways don't edit your posts. Also, why do you find JTB leaning town?

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Kuz u so impatient

I'll pick the first set because tbh I haven't really paid attention to JTB and think that this will be a good oppertunity to get a read on him.

So first, Ran is null to me, as already stated. His weak pressure, and possible connection to AA are the two scummiest things I have seen out of him. However, I do think that he is legit trying to scumhunt right now, and plus him "wanting to spread the pressure around" is in line with the philosophy he took earlier this game.

So I did a reread to get a read on JTB. Going to use the point system for convinance. Here's what I came up with:

JTB's useless list of stances (his 314) is just that; useless.
JTB's early play of "advice dogging," is just meh, because he dropped it early.
His supposed "parroting" I also feel is weakish.
JTB I feel jumped on Ran for weak reasoning in his 340. -1
Good call out though in his 394. Only giving him a half point for this one, since he was already gunning for Ran previously, so of course he would find something scummy of Ran. +0.5.
+1 for generally being invovled.

Overal: +0.5 nullish town

I think JTB has some weakish tells against him, but that's really it. TBH I really don't see the case on him and if someone wants him lynched then they are going to have to convince me otherwise.

@JTB: Please do as you said you would in your 435 ASAP. I think your anaylisis of that would be insightful.

So this post took awhile to make cause I was rereading the thread (for like 2 hours). I'll get to all of these accustions being made against me shortly.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

oh and forgot

unvote

 

[asianaussie]

I still don't understand what WIFOM is, except for reverse and endless reasoning. If that's the case, that might be what I was doing.

As for JTB, there's been active scumhunting, pushing plenty of questions for discussion, seems he wants to get a proper lynch. The only thing that makes me consider him at all is how he follows Fynal continuously and strongly, but honestly, he has explained his reason to follow that up (though I personally don't find too much in that).

Sworddancer sorta ninja'd me

 

[th3kuzinator]

Let me go out of my way to create a lengthy post commenting on things I found scummy, just to say they are still null reads and don't deserve my attention of the things I am calling them out on.

Freaking Deja Vu.

 

[JTB]

Swords, while I was doing that analysis, I noticed Seikend wagon hopping, so I focused on him.

 

[Gova]

@AA Did, you read X1's posts? WIFOM is a logical situation where there are two scenarios but no evidence to suggest either. You say Gatlin and Soren are leaning town because they are inactive and that draws attention, which scum don't want, so they are town! But what if they knew you would think like this, thus they are scum, to infinity.

 

[asianaussie]

Thank you, I needed a more simple clarfication (where does the wine come in >_>). I read it, but honestly was confused, past the reverse reasoning to infinity part.

 

[Gova]

Advicing dogging is a legit tell, it's just horribly, horribly misused. I mean, you can't make one post referring to game mechanics/how someone should play without having someone scream out "ADVICE DOGGING!"

JTB's early play of "advice dogging," is just meh, because he dropped it early.

Yeah, because I called him out on it. That's why I asked him if he felt the need to to play IC/SE. Chances are he was going to continue to fake contribute like that.

 

[Gova]

@AA, Can you pull up any quotes that show why you think JTB is town? Everyone playing is scumhunting, or if that someone is a part of the mafia, "looks like he's scumhunting".

 

[asianaussie]

You're right, there isn't really anything to clearly show he's town. It's more of an instinct from his intentions, etc. While I don't have anything that clears his name, I feel he's scumhunting in a particularly meaningful way, finding something to follow up on and having all of his suspicions directly addressed. He's also one of the ones who has voted independantly with a reason, but perhaps that's WIFOM again.

#527 and the follow-up #539 in particular stood out to me, though how valid you find them is up to you. It's a clear contradiction (that I feel Seikend didn't properly address, to be honest, feel free to convince me otherwise).

 

[Seikend]

Ughh, I have to do this again?

@AA

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12476527&postcount=544

Show me where I take Fynal's vote as scummy.

FoS: AA

 

[#HBC | J]

Votecount 7:

Swordsdancer [5] - Gatlin, JTB, th3kuzinator, Soupamario, Fynal
TheBlueSpot [0] -
Fynal [1] - Ranmaru
Gatlin [0] -
Blacknight99923 (Soren) [0] -
X1-12 [0] -
th3kuzinator [0] -
Ranmaru [2] - The Blue Spot, Seikend
Gova [0] -
JTB [1] - X1-12
Seikend [0] -
Soupamario [0] -
asianaussie [0] -

Not Voting: Swordsdancer, Gova, Blacknight99923 (Soren), asianaussie


With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

A deadline is set for Thursday April 14th at 0400 hours.

 

[JTB]

Whoa, no one else vote Swords please.

 

[asianaussie]

@ Seik

While you don't directly talk about the nature of Fynal's vote, I find it hard to believe you wouldn't notice the apparent opportunistic intent behind it, which you might have done if you were honestly scumhunting. The only excuse for that is the newbie card, which you half-dismiss in your other posts.

Take note this is before his alleged 'abuse' of the newbie card. It's not enough for me to really say you're scum, but for now I'll let it go, as it's fully possible you really did overlook it.

 

[JTB]

@mod has soren received a prod?

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Alright, that does clear up alot for me.

unvote vote Swordsdancer

Swords, I would like to see your full list of scumpicks.

K, so I can already understand that a major complinant about my play so far is going to be me not providing solid scumpicks (this goes out to more then just you JTB btw). The reason I haven't done so is because I simply haven't had any leads that I wanted to pursue as of yet. I'm going to give my full list of picks in the upcoming post.

Let me go out of my way to create a lengthy post commenting on things I found scummy, just to say they are still null reads and don't deserve my attention of the things I am calling them out on.

Let me play IC and remind TBS to not be afraid to vote, despite him already being told this awhile back.

And instead let me place a vote on Gatlin because, as an IC, I think pressuring inactives is good. I also don't feel like pursing the other people who have done scummy things but are null for some reason. This vote is not opportunistic in the slightest.

Unvote; Vote Sworddancer.

Tired of waiting. Soup, join me. I know just who to look at upon his scum flip too.

1. Was this post really so lenghty though? Really, I'm covering a bunch of topics here, and the only thing I go null on in this post is Ran. I was trying to go somewhere with Fynal there. I'm not just completly null in this post like you make me out to be.
2. This is a nitpick. Again, as IC it is my job to explain this game to newbies. Don't see how that makes me scummy.
3. Pressuring an inactive is legit. If Gatlin was to start posting all of the sudden, then it would of been a good lead.

@Fynal

yes i have, i'm just saying, you put the guy as town even though you were the one voting him.

@Kuz

personally, i'm looking at Ranmaru and JTB, but Sword is just as good, i don't like his play at all, and besides, he isn't being very IC'ish.

unvote vote Sword

What is it that you don't like abou me?

aww kuz, you coulda waited... er nvm, this kinda took me a while didn't it
oh well here goes

during the inflation/deflation of JTB's bandwagon, i see this.
<aa> sword you look scummy because of X and Y
<sword> ur wrong, but ur smart. kuz, what do you think of ran? I'm paranoid.
...what? i don't see reasons here, i see swords using his IC position to ward off aa's accusation without a defense. and then swords claims paranoia, not reasons, as why kuz should look into ran. when questioned, swords says (here) the exact same thing about aa, and a bunch of meta stuff followed by a few reasons and a lack of vote.

1. Meh. I was trying to be nice with AA, and to all newbies and general. As an IC, I'm trying to make this game look attrective to newbies. That's all. I didn't say why he was wrong because I didn't think to.
2. As you can see latter on, I'm null in reguards about Ran. So I didn't feel like I should vote him.

you follow this up with some scum-hunt-esque questions, but no voting, unless i missed something, and more asking outside opinions than asking questions at the people themselves.

and then #554. ill be honest i skimmed this one when i first saw it, but looking back i see, to a lesser experienced degree, what kuz sees in his above post. dat Gatlin vote.

Unvote
Vote: Sworddancer.

@soup, fyi, you didn't type "Sworddancer." so its not gona get counted atm...

See above for why I haven't voted anyone and why I voted Gatlin.

So sorry about inactivity...

Out of JTB/Sword, definitely Sword. Sword has been my top scum pick for a couple pages now. JTB has done a fair bit of scumhunting, whereas Sword is far more conservative, especially towards Fynal, who he has reason to FoS or even vote (which I don't believe he has done, but I haven't looked at the count for a while). I would say that if Sword is scum, Fynal is as well.

@ Soup

Town read: Soup, X1
Null leaning town: Gatlin, Soren, kuz, JTB
Null: Fynal, TBS, Gova
Null leaning scum: Sworddancer, Ran, Seikend

I haven't read deeply enough to really pin down Sword, so I'm not going to bandwagon and vote him.

FoS Sworddancer

also, I'm going inactive for a bit, V/LA or whatever.

See above. Being conservative cause I haven't found a good pursuit then.

Swords, while I was doing that analysis, I noticed Seikend wagon hopping, so I focused on him.

C

Yeah, because I called him out on it. That's why I asked him if he felt the need to to play IC/SE. Chances are he was going to continue to fake contribute like that.

K, you have a point here. What do you think of JTB's current play? Do you think he has been keeping good on his word to do more "real" scumhunting?

Freaking Deja Vu.

You asked for it. Stating Deja Vu, especially when I already stated Ran was null to me, doesn't work.

I think given the content my read on JTB is fairly sound, given the fact that the Day has just started and I don't think he should be considered much more than just null-town.

---

One more post to come, giving stances.

 

[ranmaru]

<3 Organized.

I do agree that an IC should be conservative, so that he can let the newbies scumhunt mostly within themselves, and learn from their own pool of newbiness. Yet, I do also think the IC should at least scum hunt, and with draw with ADVICE for the newbies.

• IC's can be conservative
• IC's can be aggresive
• IC's should always give advice
• IC's should scumhunt
• IC's should be a role model

Conservative IC example and IC's voting inactives.

Nabe didn't really help town at all in Newb 11. He was an IC, yet I thought he was scum because he kept his scumpicks to himself. He was very conserved, and I had tried to pressure him to get his thoughts out. He pressured the doc along with me, so it's not as if I was the only one who played poorly. He seemed to give up later on in the game, and I didn't know why. He did not play to win, and he let me down in that game.

An IC shouldn't vote an inactive, because that is an easy stance to make. So Swords, I hope you can give us your thoughts on people who have acted scummy in your eyes, and try to fight for what is right, and not just sit there on Gatlin. As you can see, Gatlin had to replace out, so you have to pick another possible scumpick.

I believe IC's should give advice, but they should also show an example.

X1's downplay on me, and Kuz's point on pressuring newbs.
I don't feel as though X1 should have down played me earlier. I am an SE, so I felt I should have given some advice myself. As you can tell, I have even scumhunted along with that, so it isn't an issue of fake contribution. X1 states that I should just sit back and play, while letting the IC’s do the advice part. Does this contradict his stance on Swords? I do not think so, because it seems Swords hasn't shown a strong stance.
Kuz's point about me pressuring newbs MAY be right, but I feel as though I cannot let them go. Do you honestly think I am scummy for that? Then please, pursue me. Explain why scumSE would want to pressure newbs.

Those are my thoughts, generally focused towards the IC/SE aspect. I will give further thoughts on Sword soon.

 

[Gova]

Ran...

 

[ranmaru]

Gova if you disagree with some of my points, then please address them.

 

[Gova]

That entire post is fluff.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Gova, I expect that detailed analysis on Ranmaru's post done in triplicate on my desk tomorrow by 8AM.

 

[Gova]

Kuz, not sure if serious.