• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Q&A New to Sheik? Look here to learn how to get started/Need help with Sheik? Ask your questions here.

WondrousMoose

Mind the antlers
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Messages
834
Location
College Station, TX
NNID
WondrousMoose
3DS FC
3024-5909-8345
Hello,
I'm a german Sheik main and recently I was told that I was playing too slow. I didn't really understand what that was supposed to mean, since I was always doing my best to be fast. I asked a friend of mine, who's a lot better than me and he told me that he had routes he's using to move quickly across the stage but I should go here and ask.
So here's my question: What do you guys do to play faster? Do you also use routes on stages like bf to manouver?
Be careful that you're not tempted to simply move for the sake of moving. Some players certainly fall for this and end up leaving themselves predictable and open to enemy retaliation. Movement is of course important, though, and a still Sheik is a dead Sheik, so practice with it. When you have a bit of time, feel free to charge needles or try to force the opponent into a more advantageous position for when the action picks back up.
 

New_Dumal

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Messages
1,077
NNID
NewTouchdown
Hello!
I'm trying to improve my Sheik tech-skill now that I finally think I'm good at analyzing options, killing, mind games...
One thing I always wanted to learn and never did it exactly is Needles->Bouncing Fish.
If I remember it right, you must cancel the final lag of the needles with Shield, and finally bouncing fish.
But I'm scrubbing hard and failing even with my enemies stopped at the training mode.

We have a topic about it ?
Videos, control demonstrations, I don't know...
I should get it from a common full hop, right ? Jump, Needles, shield, Boucing Fish.
If someone can help with this follow up, I would be grateful.
---------------------------------------------------------
I'm with a project to build a page (a document page) with important MU info to each character (%s to kill with our setups in each stage, as a example of info), starting with top/high tiers, and if the work proves to be good for me, I will post it there.
 
Last edited:

ArikadoSD

the cream of the crop
Joined
Oct 27, 2014
Messages
1,466
Location
Dublin
NNID
ArikadoSD
3DS FC
0748-2790-0166
Hello!
I'm trying to improve my Sheik tech-skill now that I finally think I'm good at analyzing options, killing, mind games...
One thing I always wanted to learn and never did it exactly is Needles->Bouncing Fish.
If I remember it right, you must cancel the final lag of the needles with Shield, and finally bouncing fish.
But I'm scrubbing hard and failing even with my enemies stopped at the training mode.

We have a topic about it ?
Videos, control demonstrations, I don't know...
I should get it from a common full hop, right ? Jump, Needles, shield, Boucing Fish.
If someone can help with this follow up, I would be grateful.
---------------------------------------------------------
I'm with a project to build a page (a document page) with important MU info to each character (%s to kill with our setups in each stage, as a example of info), starting with top/high tiers, and if the work proves to be good for me, I will post it there.
I'm not sure where you read or heard that you have to input shield. The commands are simply full hop needles to bouncing fish lol. It's a small window but with buffering its a lot easier than it sounds. Basically when you full hop you only have 2 frames where you can throw the fully charged needles and land without lag allowing you to perform any action. So you have to immediately throw needles after you full hop. I personally can't do this with traditional controls so I jump with L when I wanna throw needles out of a full hop.
 

New_Dumal

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 4, 2012
Messages
1,077
NNID
NewTouchdown
In the air it's only Needles->B.Fish ?
Omg... my life is a lie.
I already junp with L because I find this option faster to do double jump uair,and other minor stuff.

I found a mixup in BF. If yout hit someone with soft-Nair in the minor plataforms and the opponent is going to fall in the another (no tech, tech in place and rech to your direction options covered) you can get a kill with vanish glide. It's slower enough to not be a best option against Boucing fish (does not true combo offstage)near the ledge, but kills faster in this position.
 

Kurodyne

where did i put my keys
Joined
Feb 8, 2013
Messages
100
Location
Americaland
NNID
KuroSensation
so i've got a long list of questions i might as well ask here, i'll put them in quotes to try to make the post smaller. sorry if this is too much, but i feel like asking things one at a time takes way too long. i'm not expecting all of these to be answered to be honest. if you wouldn't mind, i'd also like to put your answers onto a notepad to review later so that i can use it while practicing.

while i'm here i'd also like to apologize for some posts i may have made that weren't entirely serious (although these were quite some time ago). while i still don't intend to be super srs and just talk about kill %'s and sooper advinced sheek tek all day, i'm not just going to be posting as if i'm on GameFAQs or something depressing like that

How useful/necessary are these, and if they're important, how can I apply them effectively:
B-reversing needles (aerial and grounded)
C-bouncing
Instant needle cancelling
Ledge nade cancelling
Perfect pivot forward ftilt/utilt/dtilt
Perfect pivot backward ftilt/utilt/dtilt
Utilt
Dtilt
Dair
Nair
Fthrow
Bthrow
Fsmash
Dsmash
Jab into anything
Full hop needles into nair
Weak nair into bouncing fish
Crouch sliding
Needle fidgeting
Bouncing fish to stage
Crouching
Getup attacks
Attack from ledge
Questions about playstyles, tech, that sort of stuff:
What would you consider an optimal playstyle for Sheik? I know Sheik is versatile and she can be both aggressive and defensive, but if I'm going for optimization, I'll need to figure out what to do.

Any suggestions as to how to practice particular techniques? For example, for perfect pivoting, some might try to do it once, then do it multiple times in a row, then do it across FD, then do the same thing except applying tilts with the C-stick.

Full hop needles into nair, would it be easier to jump with X/Y and then use B, or would it be better to use L?

Tilts are better than smashes for C-stick, right?

Anything I could set Y to? I use X to jump, L for specials, C-stick for tilts.

How important is spacing fair on shield? Is it safe on shield if I follow up with a jab?

How important is staling? Any way that I could use it to my advantage? Is staling fair a terrible thing? What about my throws?
Questions about MUs, reads, stages, that sort of deal:
When my opponent is at kill % for the vanish but not the uair, should I go for the vanish after my dthrow or the uair?

What do I do against Kirby? I've been having an interest in Cloud lately; do you think Cloud would fare better?

Same thing with Peach, I'm not sure at all what to do regarding her.

DK seems to wreck me consistently when I face a decent one. Up-B on the ground tends to get me good...

What do I do against a good Little Mac? I can't seem to land, and winning the neutral is hella difficult.

Wii Fit Trainer? How do I deal with her?

How about Samus? Challenge everything, yes...? Can I out-camp her?

How do I deal with the Pits? I remember one giving me trouble at a local...

Are there any characters that cover most of the above MUs better than Sheik?

How do I gimp? I used to use fair or bair, but after facing a Falcon who could consistently return, I feel that there's a better option. Is there anything like Robin's nair which sends at a very horizontal angle?

When I read a roll, what's *generally* best to go for? Ftilt?

Is bouncing fish safe to use offstage? I've lost a set from a Wii Fit Trainer because I missed the bouncing fish and ate a bair near the blast zone.

Are there any tricks you do to make yourself less predictable? (Like counting your attacks or how many times you went with certain options?)

I have a bad habit of landing in front of my opponent; any advice on where to land?

What are good stages for Sheik? I tend to play Battlefield but it doesn't feel too hot lately. I play in the CFL area, so neutrals are Battlefield, FD, Dreamland, Smashville, and Town & City and counterpicks are Duck Hunt and Lylat Cruise. I normally tend to ban Lylat Cruise simply because I don't like the tilting, but is it actually a good stage for Sheik?
 

WondrousMoose

Mind the antlers
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Messages
834
Location
College Station, TX
NNID
WondrousMoose
3DS FC
3024-5909-8345
Thank you for your space management :)

To the first box, I'd place them in the following tiers in terms of usefulness:

Necessary:
B-reversing needles (aerial and grounded)
Fthrow

Necessary for optimal Sheik play:
C-bouncing
Instant needle cancelling
Perfect pivot forward ftilt/utilt/dtilt
Perfect pivot backward ftilt/utilt/dtilt
Utilt
Dtilt
Nair
Weak nair into bouncing fish
Needle fidgeting

Good to know:
Ledge nade cancelling
Full hop needles into nair
Crouch sliding
Bouncing fish to stage
Crouching
Getup attacks
Attack from ledge

Meh:
Dair
Dsmash
Bthrow
Fsmash
Jab into anything

I'd also add Dthrow to the Necessary tier and Full hop Needles > Bouncing Fish to Optimal. I'm working on a thread right now for effective percents on Needles>BF; its effective range is generally from ~90% to kill percents.

As far as how to use them, all I can say is that that comes with practice. The reason that the top two tiers are what they are is that those are the building blocks of Sheik's combo game, also known as Sheik's game. The others are good for movement, spacing, recovery, etc., but it's the combos that really make her shine. Her individual attacks don't hit very hard, so work on putting together the different parts for optimal combos.

I'll answer the parts of your second and third quotes as I feel comfortable:
Part of the beauty of Sheik is that she doesn't have one optimal playstyle. That being said, I feel that her defensive play is a bit over-hyped, as she really can't take a hit. Play how you feel comfortable, and if it works, it works. Personally, I play more aggressively, but I'm not afraid to sit back when I can and play a zoning game.

As far as practice is concerned, just practice. I've used this analogy before, and I feel that it really fits here: If you're learning to play the piano, and you want to sit down and play this, you'll start by playing those first four notes, and then you'll play them again, and then again.... For individual techniques, you want to do them as many times as you can well. It's dull, but it's effective.

I honestly don't use full hop to Nair, simply because I don't feel like it. Because you have to release the needles as soon as you jump, unless you're comfortable with Melee Fox's SHDL, I recommend using one of the top buttons to jump. Personally, I use Z so that my short/full hops can be more predictable. None of that analog mess.

C-stick should definitely be set to Attack over Smash. Don't use Sheik's smashes unless you reeeeally know that you can; they're all laggy, and she can't afford the damage. Smash stick also screws up aerial mobility (so I've heard; I've not even bothered with it myself), which is key.

I set Y to grab so that dash grabs are that much simpler, but it's not too important. All a matter of comfort, really.

There is a thread on staling. I don't know that there's a consensus yet, so maybe keep an eye on that one.

Vanish vs. Uair is tricky. In order to set up a potentially awesome kill move, you need to condition them to air dodge your Dthrows, or else they'll escape the Vanish, and you'll suffer your lag. If they're not airdodging, you're actually probably better off not using Dthrow, as a stale Uair is less effective, and she doesn't have many options out of it relative to the rest of her kit.

Reading a roll is actually one of the few times you can feel good using a smash attack. If you time it right, and/or your opponent has a lousy roll, your recovery frames shouldn't be an issue.

Bouncing Fish off-stage kills uncharacteristically early for Sheik, but yes, it's risky. Always remember that you can execute the second kick with a button press if necessary.

Battlefield is a contentious stage. Some people love it for the new combo opportunities that open up with the platforms; some people hate the platforms that can interrupt her. Honestly, I feel that she does well on all the legal stages, except maybe Delfino or Halberd. Some people like Lylat, though I personally hate it. I'm not the right person to ask for that.
Whew. That's a lot of typing. Hope I could help!
 
Last edited:

BoxedOccaBerrys

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 11, 2015
Messages
271
Location
Midland, Michigan
NNID
BoXeDOccaBerrys
I find myself using Up-Tilt a lot when combo-ing off of a Forward Air, is this a useful tactic?

(The combo I find myself doing is Forward Throw > Forward Air > Neutral Air > Up-Tilt)

This is just a general question for all of you Sheik mains, do you stale your down-throw so you can land D-Throw into U-Air? I do that... A lot...
 

ArikadoSD

the cream of the crop
Joined
Oct 27, 2014
Messages
1,466
Location
Dublin
NNID
ArikadoSD
3DS FC
0748-2790-0166
Does OOS nair put you at frame disadvantage at 0%?
If you mean whether it's safe on hit or not, then it's safe.
I find myself using Up-Tilt a lot when combo-ing off of a Forward Air, is this a useful tactic?

(The combo I find myself doing is Forward Throw > Forward Air > Neutral Air > Up-Tilt)

This is just a general question for all of you Sheik mains, do you stale your down-throw so you can land D-Throw into U-Air? I do that... A lot...
I suppose it's a good mixup but I don't see it as a viable combo every single time. Looks far from guaranteed.

As for staling dthrow, I believe there was some research done into this recently by K {Kyro} and he made a thread (shouldn't be hard to find), and the conclusion was that staling dthrow reduces knockback but also reduces hitstun, so it's not worth it/not good.
 
Last edited:

Retro X

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
194
Location
Above & Beyond
NNID
uncorruptable
Yo, I've noticed all the top Sheiks (Zero, Void) go for vanish a little bit above the stage when recovering to force the opponent to shield and then go for the ledge from there. I'm having trouble accomplishing this and tend to fall past the ledge while holding down, is there a better direction to hold or should I be positioning myself better? Basically what is the optimal way to recover as Sheik with this vanish attack method and how punishable is it?
 

WondrousMoose

Mind the antlers
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Messages
834
Location
College Station, TX
NNID
WondrousMoose
3DS FC
3024-5909-8345
Yo, I've noticed all the top Sheiks (Zero, Void) go for vanish a little bit above the stage when recovering to force the opponent to shield and then go for the ledge from there. I'm having trouble accomplishing this and tend to fall past the ledge while holding down, is there a better direction to hold or should I be positioning myself better? Basically what is the optimal way to recover as Sheik with this vanish attack method and how punishable is it?
It's tough to get the direction right; you'll just have to get the hang of it. One thing to keep in mind is that if you Vanish into the ground or straight up, you have a lot of landing lag, but if you Vanish at an angle, you don't have any.
 

Simikins

Nerfed
Joined
Jun 5, 2015
Messages
366
Location
New Zealand
3DS FC
0447-8060-8710
Yo, I've noticed all the top Sheiks (Zero, Void) go for vanish a little bit above the stage when recovering to force the opponent to shield and then go for the ledge from there. I'm having trouble accomplishing this and tend to fall past the ledge while holding down, is there a better direction to hold or should I be positioning myself better? Basically what is the optimal way to recover as Sheik with this vanish attack method and how punishable is it?
When holding downwards, it is not possible to grab the ledge. You have to hold down and then just before sheik reappears hold neutral. Practice that a lot, so that you don't sd in an important game.
 

ArikadoSD

the cream of the crop
Joined
Oct 27, 2014
Messages
1,466
Location
Dublin
NNID
ArikadoSD
3DS FC
0748-2790-0166
Also if you're confused why they do that it's because if you recover at stage level or higher you don't get the 2 frames of invulnerability which is pretty damn ****ing good.
 

HoSmash4

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 24, 2015
Messages
688
Why do people never challenge the 19 frames vulnerable startup when zero/void do that?
Last time I did it a link dash attacked me to my death.
 

Simikins

Nerfed
Joined
Jun 5, 2015
Messages
366
Location
New Zealand
3DS FC
0447-8060-8710
Why do people never challenge the 19 frames vulnerable startup when zero/void do that?
Last time I did it a link dash attacked me to my death.
That is the weakness.
Against little mac players who often charge dsmash this is kinda risky.
Edit: Well anyone with a dsmash that hits the ledge.
Another Edit: Or any attack
 
Last edited:

ArikadoSD

the cream of the crop
Joined
Oct 27, 2014
Messages
1,466
Location
Dublin
NNID
ArikadoSD
3DS FC
0748-2790-0166
Fair and uair are p much the only followups
 

FeelMeUp

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
Messages
1,015
Location
Houston, Texas
NNID
BathMonster
When you short hop fair with Diddy Kong using the Cstick you don't have a rising hitbox(generally due to not being fast enough) and it makes it impossible to hit shorter characters like Lucas and Ness
I've done fair strings/zoning with the Cstick my entire time using Sheik but I've been timing it like brawl falco's lasers where i pause on the way up and fair on the way down to get a relatively low fair with no endlag
However, it just occurred to me that this could be incorrect and that I may be able to get a rising hitbox if I use A instead of Cstick. Anyone have experience with this?
If so, this will explain why I've had a good deal of trouble with fairing people that are approaching and would help immensely.
 

ArikadoSD

the cream of the crop
Joined
Oct 27, 2014
Messages
1,466
Location
Dublin
NNID
ArikadoSD
3DS FC
0748-2790-0166
When you short hop fair with Diddy Kong using the Cstick you don't have a rising hitbox(generally due to not being fast enough) and it makes it impossible to hit shorter characters like Lucas and Ness
I've done fair strings/zoning with the Cstick my entire time using Sheik but I've been timing it like brawl falco's lasers where i pause on the way up and fair on the way down to get a relatively low fair with no endlag
However, it just occurred to me that this could be incorrect and that I may be able to get a rising hitbox if I use A instead of Cstick. Anyone have experience with this?
If so, this will explain why I've had a good deal of trouble with fairing people that are approaching and would help immensely.
I'm not sure what your question/problem is here. Just use short hop and then slide your thumb from the jump button to A while holding forward and there is your fast, rising aerial.
 

{Kyro}

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 31, 2015
Messages
173
As for staling dthrow, I believe there was some research done into this recently by K {Kyro} and he made a thread (shouldn't be hard to find), and the conclusion was that staling dthrow reduces knockback but also reduces hitstun, so it's not worth it/not good.
What was important was that the knockback and hitstun reduced at the same rate as they do with percent, so it IS worth it. :p maybe I didn't explain it very well

By the way sorry for not being active, I had a ton of things I had to do this week and no free time but I'm back now!
 

BoxedOccaBerrys

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 11, 2015
Messages
271
Location
Midland, Michigan
NNID
BoXeDOccaBerrys
Well time to ask a stupid question.

How do you guys edge-guard as Sheik? I'm looking for new ways to edge-guard, I normally use Needles or a Fair, at kill% I use Bouncing Fish.

Now, what are the best OOS options when against Samus? I have trouble with the Samus matchup, so I'm looking for tips on that as well~

If these are stupid please say
:ness:
 
Last edited:

{Kyro}

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 31, 2015
Messages
173
Well time to ask a stupid question.

How do you guys edge-guard as Sheik? I'm looking for new ways to edge-guard, I normally use Needles or a Fair, at kill% I use Bouncing Fish.

How you edge guard should depend on whom you're edge guarding, specifically in the context of that recovery they have. You have to think about how they can recover and how you can counter those options, then predict or react to an option and punish. For example, if I wanted to edge guard a Fox and I predict he will side-b, I would wait for the animation to start and nair him out of it.
Now, what are the best OOS options when against Samus? I have trouble with the Samus matchup, so I'm looking for tips on that as well~

If these are stupid please say
Besides just lowering shield and then doing something, Samus's best options are up-b and grab (grab only if the opponent is in range)
 

BoxedOccaBerrys

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 11, 2015
Messages
271
Location
Midland, Michigan
NNID
BoXeDOccaBerrys
Any tips on the Zelda matchup? I lose to Zelda SO badly.

<3

Now second question time. What would you say is Sheik's best stage? I personally go to Town and City whenever I'm against any character, and I find it beneficial to Sheik.

Remember I'm stupid you so know to insult me throughly if these are bad questions :ness:
 

ArikadoSD

the cream of the crop
Joined
Oct 27, 2014
Messages
1,466
Location
Dublin
NNID
ArikadoSD
3DS FC
0748-2790-0166
Well time to ask a stupid question.

How do you guys edge-guard as Sheik? I'm looking for new ways to edge-guard, I normally use Needles or a Fair, at kill% I use Bouncing Fish.

Now, what are the best OOS options when against Samus? I have trouble with the Samus matchup, so I'm looking for tips on that as well~

If these are stupid please say
:ness:
Sheik's oos options don't change between matchups lol. They're still the same. Read this post. IMO best oos option is nair cuz nair puts sheik in such an amazing spot if it hits.

As for the samus matchup, punish missiles and charge shot with bouncing fish should Samus ever decide to do that, you can do it on reaction. In general Samus can't do **** to Sheik's needles or to Sheik in general. Her kill options are up b (oos or not), charge shot, bair, and maybe a well spaced usmash/fsmash. Out of all of these you should honestly only be scared of bair. She's a floaty and a heavy so anything is a true combo on her lol.

Any tips on the Zelda matchup? I lose to Zelda SO badly.

<3

Now second question time. What would you say is Sheik's best stage? I personally go to Town and City whenever I'm against any character, and I find it beneficial to Sheik.

Remember I'm stupid you so know to insult me throughly if these are bad questions :ness:
You have to be careful around Zelda and know when to tip toe around her and when not to mess with her. You should know if you do something dumb on Zelda's shield and be prepared to DI up b oos by holding in the direction Sheik isn't facing. So for example if Sheik's facing the right with Zelda shielding in front of her and you land with a mis-spaced fair on Zelda's shield, hold left to DI the up b oos. Zelda can also do spotdodge > up b so be careful of that. She will also use her neutral b as a panic option same as Luigi and Mario's nairs, cuz it has invincibility starting frame 4 or 5, so always keep that in mind. In general just stick to very safe things, needles, fair, guaranteed grab follow ups, until she's at a percent where dthrow uair or nair bf kills, which should be early considering she's light.

As for Sheik stages, here's my personal tier list:

S: FD, Smashville
A: T&C, BF, DH
B: DL, Lylat

It all depends on the mu tho. Some MUs BF is the best stage, others T&C, but most of the time it's usually FD or SV.
 

WondrousMoose

Mind the antlers
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Messages
834
Location
College Station, TX
NNID
WondrousMoose
3DS FC
3024-5909-8345
Any tips on the Zelda matchup? I lose to Zelda SO badly.

<3

Now second question time. What would you say is Sheik's best stage? I personally go to Town and City whenever I'm against any character, and I find it beneficial to Sheik.

Remember I'm stupid you so know to insult me throughly if these are bad questions :ness:
Dude, quit calling yourself stupid. It's like a catchphrase at this point.
 

Trash Boat

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Messages
15
Location
Lansing, MI
NNID
MrBossDude
I want to pick up sheik, but im having lots of trouble with fh needles into bouncung fish and other combos
 

WondrousMoose

Mind the antlers
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Messages
834
Location
College Station, TX
NNID
WondrousMoose
3DS FC
3024-5909-8345
I want to pick up sheik, but im having lots of trouble with fh needles into bouncung fish and other combos
You'll find just about everything you'll need to know here, or more specifically, here.

For Needles > Bouncing Fish, be sure that you're releasing the needles as soon as you jump. You only have a few frames to release them and attack before landing. Data for that combo can be found here.
 

Trash Boat

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 2, 2015
Messages
15
Location
Lansing, MI
NNID
MrBossDude
You'll find just about everything you'll need to know here, or more specifically, here.

For Needles > Bouncing Fish, be sure that you're releasing the needles as soon as you jump. You only have a few frames to release them and attack before landing. Data for that combo can be found here.
Thank you very much.
 

HoSmash4

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 24, 2015
Messages
688
Can anyone explain what combos rising fair leads to and what strings it can lead to?
 

ArikadoSD

the cream of the crop
Joined
Oct 27, 2014
Messages
1,466
Location
Dublin
NNID
ArikadoSD
3DS FC
0748-2790-0166
i mean short hop rising fair
oh. that leads to all sorts of combos.

most common ones are to shff fair itself, nair, bair, bouncing fish. but it can also combo to ftilt and i believe utilt. at 0-10 maybe 0-20% it can confirm into a grab.
 

HoSmash4

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 24, 2015
Messages
688
Does anyone know the frame disadvantage on sheik's rising fair on block?
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom