Q&A New to Sheik? Look here to learn how to get started/Need help with Sheik? Ask your questions here.

saviorslegacy

My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
3,727
Location
Tacoma, WA
#1
How to Get Started


Sheik has a high skill floor and a high skill ceiling. This means that it is both difficult to play her at a basic level and to master her. This is why a lot of people struggle with Sheik when they pick her up for the first time.
Sheik is very fun however, with lots of cools tricks to help you win. If you are having trouble with her please read this thread. If you need help please reply asking for help. We would be happy to assist you.



My opponents are not dying until high percents. What Am I doing wrong?
Well nothing really. Sheik is a very fast character and she trades power for speed. Most of her moves do not inflict that much damage and they generally have very low knock back.
The only way Sheik gets an early kill is by gimping.
If you are curious as to when Sheik's moves kill here is a thread on that: http://smashboards.com/threads/sheiks-frame-data-and-kill-percents.373103/


What is gimping?
Gimping is where you knock/throw someone off stage and then interrupt their recovery. The goal is to take away their second jump (this excludes characters with multiple jumps like Kirby) and then knock them away from the stage again. This limits their recovery to their up B. From here you can keep knocking them away until they are no longer able to reach the stage or stage spike them (hit them into the stage and bounce them off and into the pit).
Here is a good example of what a gimp should look like: http://youtu.be/nLMh5LKdEMo?t=6s


How should I combo?
That is a very very very tough question to answer. Sheik doesn't really have set combos that you should always follow.
One of her best combos however is F-Throw into Bouncing Fish.
Some of her other good combos are: f-tilt> f-tilt, f-tilt> Fair, f-tilt> Uair, D-Throw> Fair, D-Throw> Uair, jab> grab, Nair/Fair> jab, Nair/Fair/Bair> f-tilt, ect
These all work at different percents. As you can Sheik is pretty flexible when it comes to her combo game.
Here's a thread on the F-Throw into Bouncing Fish combo: http://smashboards.com/threads/sheik-fthrow-into-bouncing-fish-combos-complete.377874/


What is Sheik's worst match up?
No one knows really. Everyone has their own personal opinion. When the casts meta game start to stabalize and people start working on a tier list then we will start to look at match up ratios. As of right now, it is all personal opinion.
If you are having trouble with a match up please ask here: http://smashboards.com/threads/ninj...h-up-thread-now-discussing-diddy-kong.371918/
Please be patient when asking for match up help. No one has a lot of experience with the entire cast. Since the game is still really knew match up knowledge is not all to common.


How should I approach with Sheik?
You have two options really.
#1 By trying to predict what your opponent is going to do when you get close to them and then countering that. If you predict they are going to shield and then grab you then you should try to bait out the grab and punish them for it. If they are going to attack then try shielding and then grabbing them. This is always a guessing game and you will never guess what they will do 100% of the time.
#2 Don't, just throw needles. Needles are one of the best projectiles in the game. They are fast, pass through other projectiles and very spammy. Force them to approach you. Again, you will be playing the guessing game. Predict and punish to the best of your ability.


Bouncing Fish is awesome! What should I be using it for?
Many things, you should be using it for many things.
You can use Bouncing Fish to punish a lot of moves in the game. For example, if you predict that Robin is going to use Arc Fire and you are in Bouncing Fish distance you can punish him for it if you are quick enough. So that makes it a punish tool.
If the opponent is off stage you can hit them with Bouncing Fish and bounce back to the stage. That makes it a gimp tool, and a good one at that.
You can also use Bouncing Fish as a movement tool. If you are trying to recover use Bouncing Fish to get back to the stage.
Since Bouncing Fish is so fast you can catch people off guard with it. Throw it at the opponent every once and a while when they are not expecting it.
If the opponent is shielding try hitting their shield with Bouncing Fish. It will bounce off of their shield making it really hard to counter.
It has many uses, some are personal preference. Experiment with this move and figure out how you like to use. Just don't flop onto the ground in front of the enemy. That is just asking for trouble.


Sheik has a lot of cool Advanced Techniques/Techniques. Which ones should I learn first?
Okay first off, a lot of Sheik's AT's are situational. If you are just picking up Sheik I recommend learning these AT's/Techniques first, use them for a while and THEN experiment with her other AT's.

Vanish Canceling- Since Vanish is a kill option you need to know how to teleport correctly. Yes there is a right and wrong way to teleport. The right way is to land with no lag and avoid being punish. The wrong way is to land and get punished.
Here is a video showing how to cancel you landing lag (yes this is a Brawl video, but it still works the same in Smash4): http://youtu.be/0s3Y3zny9tI?t=1m25s

Vanish Gliding- Vanish gliding is a very good and easy to perform technique. It will teach you the ropes of gliding and will help you gimp/land a kill at the ledge.
This is Vanish gliding (yes this is a Brawl video, but it still works the same in Smash4): http://youtu.be/0s3Y3zny9tI?t=1m33s

Bouncing Fish Canceling- You can cancel your Bouncing Fish. Do this by mash B really fast after you either perform a Bouncing Fish or when you hit something with Bouncing Fish and flip back. This will make the kick come out sooner. If used after you hit something you will land on the ground without any landing lag.
Here is a video demonstrating this: http://youtu.be/YZYyPd-jloM?t=40s
You can also increase or decrease the distance of Bouncing Fish by holding the analog either in the direction you are flipping towards or opposite from where you are flipping towards.

Roll Cancel Grab- Simply boosts the length of your grab.
Here's a link: http://smashboards.com/threads/roll-cancel-grabs.371874/

Aaaaaaand that is it for Sheik's AT's and Techniques. Master these four FIRST and then worry about everything else that Sheik has to offer.
If you are interested on what all Sheik can do then look here: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...ced-techniques-combos-and-tricks-1-04.371988/


I can't DACUS, what am I doing wrong?
DACUS was removed from Smash4 via update 1.0.4.
So if you are having trouble with it that is because there's nothing there.



Final Summary
If you are having difficulty with Sheik please post here and ask for help. We would be more than happy to help you. If you have a video and you would like it to be critiqued please post it here: http://smashboards.com/threads/sheik-video-video-critique-thread.368936/

I wish you luck with your new main/secondary.
 
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OoohShiny

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 4, 2014
Messages
19
#2
I have a couple of questions, i am trying to improve a lot with sheik, but heading into a lot of trouble lately. I am still quiet new so i will be saying what i mean instead of the common slang. (Mby that would be my first question, a link to the most common sm4sh slang words explained)
Okay, here the questions:

1) How to learn off platforming?
Alright i start with this one, how do i learn most efficient to keep my enemies off the platform? Heres the point. lately i have a lot of games where i am playing a bit better than my enemy, but when i try to keep him from the platform, its not uncommon for me do die myself, pulling my enemy with me or just alone and he recovers. Especially against characters like Pikachu or Zelda, which are teleporting themself or using attacks to get back on stage again it feels hard to keep em away from my ground.

2) Whats the speed of the game?
Yeah i know thats a weird one, so i will go with an example: When im playing with my friends usually its a beat em up festival and constant fighting, gettin back into the action with not a moment pause. Online, however, i feel like its better to keep it a little bit slower, just to be able to play more accordingly to my enemy or "make out a plan" - but i dont think this is correct? It feels especially weird since Sheik is such a fast character, that i just wanna go in there again.

3) Once she gets in, she shall maximize the punish
I got this kinda sentence from another thread from some ninjaclan, this might be the goal, but once I get in, especially when i use stuff like throw down + jump A the enemy just evades and the momentum is gone, usually ending in me going out of the fight with more % than the enemy.

4(offtopic)) Is there a good sheik wallpaper 1920 x 1080? ive checked google but found nothing

5) Controllerprecision
If theres on thing that happens frequently to me, its that once i am offstage, instead of actually using her up-B, sheik is throwing her side-B, leading to immeadiate death. Is there ANY way to turn this spell off, or recovering after this? At first i thought i would be unprecise in my handling, but i have seen enemy sheiks making the same mistake and just dropping to death. i already figured out the reason (actually the need to lose the grip of the controller, then pushing up-B again) - and somehow it feels like i encounter this problem only with sheik. If theres a way to end this, please tell.



Thats it for now, im pretty sure there will be more stuff in the future, but one step at a time
 
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Jaax

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 12, 2014
Messages
28
Location
Melbourne
NNID
ItzzJak
#3
How do I bet a Link? he camps with projectiles until I approach and when I do I perform kick ass combos but he just matches the percentages back up with 2 moves.
He approaches with a nair and then neutral A combo and I just can't do anything about it.
 

Wasserwipf

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 22, 2012
Messages
191
Location
Switzerland
3DS FC
2809-9876-8323
NNID
wasserwipf
#5
1) How to learn off platforming?
Alright i start with this one, how do i learn most efficient to keep my enemies off the platform? Heres the point. lately i have a lot of games where i am playing a bit better than my enemy, but when i try to keep him from the platform, its not uncommon for me do die myself, pulling my enemy with me or just alone and he recovers. Especially against characters like Pikachu or Zelda, which are teleporting themself or using attacks to get back on stage again it feels hard to keep em away from my ground.
Gimping Pikachu is rather hard imo, as it can switch directions and stuff, and zelda is just scary, her recovery has quite nice hitboxes and good range.
...If you are dieing when playing offstage, you are going out too far. try to stay close to the ledge, and learn the range of your Up-B. And never forget that Bouncing Fish can be used for recovery as well. You basicly should not die when goijng offstage, as Sheik has one of the best recoverys ingame. Keep attention to when you use your double jump and always try not to loose it. If they are attacking you, you might get stage-spiked. If that is your problem, just learn how to tech those. You can see it coming and a tech should save your live. However, the timing can be tricky, you even see really good players messing it up from time to time.
As for gimping (keeping him off the platform) itself, Sheik has lots of tools. If you feel unconfortable offstage, you might want to stay onstage and throw a nade, charge needles or wait at the ledge and punish their recovery (vanish is gold). Once you are offstage, Bouncing Fish is your best friend. Fair strings still work, and Backair as well as Nair to occupie the air and ledge. Also, Bair for stagespikes.

2) Whats the speed of the game?
Yeah i know thats a weird one, so i will go with an example: When im playing with my friends usually its a beat em up festival and constant fighting, gettin back into the action with not a moment pause. Online, however, i feel like its better to keep it a little bit slower, just to be able to play more accordingly to my enemy or "make out a plan" - but i dont think this is correct? It feels especially weird since Sheik is such a fast character, that i just wanna go in there again.
This is extremely MU, characte and Player based. Many actualy believe the game is slow, as it seems to benefit defensive gameplay. So when you play to win, that might actually be true. Sheik has the tools to be played defensifly, Needles and Nades do a great job, and since shes so fast and mobile you can run even run away and time them out. @Absol 359 already covered this in the MU discussion, and I can only agree here. Keep in mind to listen to this (YT link) while timing out opponents as it's absolutely necessary.
On the other hand, Sheik has the tools to be played really agressiv. Your Fair is safe on shield, you have fast jabs, options, combos, followups.. everything. So she can (and should) be played in different fashions, if you ask me. Also, play how you feel, there is no "right" and "wrong" only "works" and "doesn't work" as well as "is fun" and "is no fun". It's up to you.

3) Once she gets in, she shall maximize the punish
I got this kinda sentence from another thread from some ninjaclan, this might be the goal, but once I get in, especially when i use stuff like throw down + jump A the enemy just evades and the momentum is gone, usually ending in me going out of the fight with more % than the enemy.
Fthrow all day. No but seriously, Sheik hasnt got as many "true" combos as many believe. You might actually be doing nothing wrong, maybe you're opponent is just to good. Out of a Dthrow, you can usually go for a Uair, which leads to a juggle but no combos, or a fair, which leads to famous Fair strings. Both are DI dependent and thus read heavy. Learn your opponents habits and act accordingly. If you are not at this stage yet, learn sheiks air movement first. What works, what does not work, when to double jump, when to Fastfall-> jump again, what is RAR and how do I use it, and and and. You could train this with CPU's, or watch and play against other Sheiks if you cannot find it out by yourself. No one is born a master, don't expect those combos to work right off the bat. We all had to learn them until they are muscle memory or so.

4(offtopic)) Is there a good sheik wallpaper 1920 x 1080? ive checked google but found nothing
No. I have a collection of almost 200 Wallpapers that feature various characters from Anime and Games, and as much as I like Sheik, there is not a single good one in that collection. And i search alot. (There is a lot of good artwork, but no wallpapers. imo). It is to mention, that you dont necessary have to use 1920x1080, windows has some nice scaling function for wallpapers, and believe me, you dont see much difference between something that's been scaled up and something that was so big in the beginning.

5) Controllerprecision
If theres on thing that happens frequently to me, its that once i am offstage, instead of actually using her up-B, sheik is throwing her side-B, leading to immeadiate death. Is there ANY way to turn this spell off, or recovering after this? At first i thought i would be unprecise in my handling, but i have seen enemy sheiks making the same mistake and just dropping to death. i already figured out the reason (actually the need to lose the grip of the controller, then pushing up-B again) - and somehow it feels like i encounter this problem only with sheik. If theres a way to end this, please tell.
I think you could make a drinking game out of this. Every time a Sheik-main suicides you have to drink one. I think I'd have died from a alcohol intoxication already if I did that. It happens to me usually with Bouncing Fish tho.
You cannot get out of the free fall. You just need to stay focused all the time offstage and make sure to make those inputs correct. Yes you are right, make sure to get the stick back to neutral again before Up-B, this helps a lot. Dont forget, that after you input Up-B, you still have enough time to angle your recovery. You dont have to angle it early on.

Ok thats it, hope that helps, If not, just ask again :) Oh and sorry if I used some wrong words/wrote stuff wrong, english is still not my native language.
 

saviorslegacy

My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
Joined
Sep 25, 2008
Messages
3,727
Location
Tacoma, WA
#6
I have a couple of questions, i am trying to improve a lot with sheik, but heading into a lot of trouble lately. I am still quiet new so i will be saying what i mean instead of the common slang. (Mby that would be my first question, a link to the most common sm4sh slang words explained)
Okay, here the questions:

1) How to learn off platforming?
Alright i start with this one, how do i learn most efficient to keep my enemies off the platform? Heres the point. lately i have a lot of games where i am playing a bit better than my enemy, but when i try to keep him from the platform, its not uncommon for me do die myself, pulling my enemy with me or just alone and he recovers. Especially against characters like Pikachu or Zelda, which are teleporting themself or using attacks to get back on stage again it feels hard to keep em away from my ground.

2) Whats the speed of the game?
Yeah i know thats a weird one, so i will go with an example: When im playing with my friends usually its a beat em up festival and constant fighting, gettin back into the action with not a moment pause. Online, however, i feel like its better to keep it a little bit slower, just to be able to play more accordingly to my enemy or "make out a plan" - but i dont think this is correct? It feels especially weird since Sheik is such a fast character, that i just wanna go in there again.

3) Once she gets in, she shall maximize the punish
I got this kinda sentence from another thread from some ninjaclan, this might be the goal, but once I get in, especially when i use stuff like throw down + jump A the enemy just evades and the momentum is gone, usually ending in me going out of the fight with more % than the enemy.

4(offtopic)) Is there a good sheik wallpaper 1920 x 1080? ive checked google but found nothing

5) Controllerprecision
If theres on thing that happens frequently to me, its that once i am offstage, instead of actually using her up-B, sheik is throwing her side-B, leading to immeadiate death. Is there ANY way to turn this spell off, or recovering after this? At first i thought i would be unprecise in my handling, but i have seen enemy sheiks making the same mistake and just dropping to death. i already figured out the reason (actually the need to lose the grip of the controller, then pushing up-B again) - and somehow it feels like i encounter this problem only with sheik. If theres a way to end this, please tell.



Thats it for now, im pretty sure there will be more stuff in the future, but one step at a time
There use to a slang thread but I seem to be unable to find it.

1. Use you air attacks to attack the platform. Also, USmash tipper will sweet spot them if they are on the platform. I prefer to use Uair or Fair on someone who is on a platform.

2. So what I gather is you are asking is what is a better play style, defensive or aggressive. That comes down to how you yourself prefers to play. I prefer a little bit of both. I feel like neither has a clear advantage over the other. There is nothing wrong with sitting back and throwing needles. If they get close simply punish. Then again applying pressure and playing aggressive once they're at the ledge and you control the stage is a good choice as well.

3. Your timing is probably off. Try d-throwing> Uair or f-throw> BF/jumping BF.
If they are punishing you how are they punishing? Are they attacking you before you can attack them or are they air dodging? You can punish both by simply not following up. Wait for them to attack/air dodge and then punish them for it.

5. Yes, I want you to run off the stage and then recover back. Go out as far as you can possibly go. After you have done this about 50 times w/o ****ing up then you developed muscle memory for perform both BF and Vanish to recover.
If you want to can even go to 52m (the old school DK stage... I that is its name) and use BF and Vanish to zip around the stage.
Once you get use to this you should be fine. Just remember to not get nervous and kill yourself in matches.

How do I bet a Link? he camps with projectiles until I approach and when I do I perform kick *** combos but he just matches the percentages back up with 2 moves.
He approaches with a nair and then neutral A combo and I just can't do anything about it.
http://smashboards.com/threads/ninj...h-up-thread-now-discussing-diddy-kong.371918/
Scroll down and read the Link section.

I would suggest needles and bouncing fish.
 

Syde7

The Sultan of Smut
Premium
Joined
Dec 7, 2004
Messages
1,924
Location
Winston-Salem, NC
NNID
syde_7
#7
Hidy ho folks,

I don't really have a "main" per se, though I am spending more and more time on ROB with lots of success. That being said, I actually wanted to main Sheik in this game, as I mained her in Melee. Plus, having a relatively good rush-down character with aggressive options seems to compliment ROB nicely (on paper at least, when comparing strengths/weaknesses in each) in some of his M/U's where he has difficulty (Diddy comes to mind, among others).

That being said...

Outside of the typical problems one would expect (opponent's not dying until high percentages... like 160+), I'm having a bit of a time with the following:

  • With players who can't approach (either because of their character having weak approach options, or the player themselves are just not good at approaching) which forces me to approach (usually by having solid projectiles that trumps needles or a good zoning game)
    • I find my safe options limited, and it feels to me that the approach mix-ups I have require a hard commit to both the mix-up and the prediction/reaction.
    • I find myself getting walled out by a lot of stuff I feel like I should (as Sheik) be able to get around.
    • As an aside, BF works wonders on folks who just stand and shoot their projectiles (I've utterly decimated several opponents who would either just stand and shoot thunderjolts with Pika, or Fireballs w/ Luigi, etc...) but its when they have a decent level of movement whilst utilizing said projectiles that I experience difficulty.
  • Controlling Sheik in the flow of a match. That is to say, in training mode - I can zip effortlessly around the stage, everything seems to come out just like I want it to, etc etc... though in a match she feels clunky (which, I know is a deficiency on my part, as Sheik is far from clunky) with me utterly whiffing attacks/grab attempts/etc.

  • As I mentioned before about opponents living until high percents... I know Sheik requires precision & waiting for the right moment to really land that solid KO option, but while waiting for/trying to set up that KO option, I wind up tacking on essentially useless chip damage while eating enough damage to be at KO percents myself... turning an 80%+, comfortable lead into a "next hit wins" scenario.

In addition to the above, a few random questions:
  1. What percents do you Sheik mains find your opponents living to consistently when you don't get an early gimp?
  2. I find myself struggling somewhat on flatter/longer stages (any Omega stage, FD, etc) both online and in person while excelling on platformed stages (naturally, as Sheik has a strong platform game...). Any tips to improve on these stages? Any tips to improve on these stages against chars that really enjoy them?
  3. What are some of your controller set-ups?

Thanks in advance for any help. ATM, I'm probably about 50/50 or 60/40 in terms of win/loss...I really enjoy using Sheik, but would enjoy it a lot more if I stopped losing to players & MU's I know I (as a player) should dominate (and do so as ROB) b/c I lack skill with the character as outlined above , and MU's I know Sheik should absolutely WRECK.
 
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
Messages
2
Location
Louisville
NNID
MorgothBauglir89
#8
Hey! Not sure who will read this, but I have a quick question for whoever has an opinion/answer.
I'm super new to Smash and I just started trying to play the game seriously. I'm not sure if this is stupid or common knowledge, but I can't find the answer.
Would changing my C-Stick to "Special" cause any harm? I've found I can consistently perform BF-Reversals, Vanish Gliding, and BF/Vanish out of Needle-Fidget if my C-Stick is "Special".
Maybe one day my thumbs will be fast enough to do these things normally, but this game's a little faster than MTG, so it'll take practice hahah.
I'm curious if there's an objectively better use of C-Stick, and what that is?
The only thing I've found was someone saying to change your C-Stick to "Attack" so you can buffer tilts while Perfect Pivoting.

Edit: After discussing this with a few friends and getting replies from a few others, I'm not gonna use my C-Stick for special. It seems it has a much better use in buffering tilts for Perfect Pivoting as well as offering air control.
 
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Duzzzyy

Sing me your lullaby~
Joined
Dec 14, 2014
Messages
321
Location
Tallon IV
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Duzzzyy
#9
Hey! Not sure who will read this, but I have a quick question for whoever has an opinion/answer.
I'm super new to Smash and I just started trying to play the game seriously. I'm not sure if this is stupid or common knowledge, but I can't find the answer.
Would changing my C-Stick to "Special" cause any harm? I've found I can consistently perform BF-Reversals, Vanish Gliding, and BF/Vanish out of Needle-Fidget if my C-Stick is "Special".
Maybe one day my thumbs will be fast enough to do these things normally, but this game's a little faster than MTG, so it'll take practice hahah.
I'm curious if there's an objectively better use of C-Stick, and what that is?
The only thing I've found was someone saying to change your C-Stick to "Attack" so you can buffer tilts while Perfect Pivoting.
There's no harm in trying, but I see little use in it myself. Right now when you are new things might seem impossible, like those one-three frame button inputs and alike, or even PP(Perfect Pivot), but if you keep practicing and keep at it it'll become easier and easier and one day it'll just click, and become second nature. It happened to me with osu!, I struggled to even beat normal+ diff songs, and eventually I was able to both move my tablet pen and tap the keys fast enough to beat Hard+ to some Insane songs.

My point is, if it's unclear, give it a go and see what happens, but don't be afraid to keep C-Stick as something else as you'll have little trouble doing what you intend to use the C-Stick for with some hard practice and just playing the game in general.
 
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Silverrida

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 25, 2014
Messages
7
#10
I am totally unable to roll cancel grab and I have no idea what I'm doing wrong. I also cannot tell if I doing the other techniques right. Any advice on this?

Also seemingly unable to cancel bouncing fish at all. It's pretty discouraging haha.
 
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Jaxas

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 12, 2014
Messages
1,693
Location
Salem, OR, US
NNID
Jaxas7
#11
While I'm by no means a Sheik expert (yet, improving every day of course!) I can at least throw in my 2-cents here:

Hidy ho folks,

I don't really have a "main" per se, though I am spending more and more time on ROB with lots of success. That being said, I actually wanted to main Sheik in this game, as I mained her in Melee. Plus, having a relatively good rush-down character with aggressive options seems to compliment ROB nicely (on paper at least, when comparing strengths/weaknesses in each) in some of his M/U's where he has difficulty (Diddy comes to mind, among others).

That being said...

Outside of the typical problems one would expect (opponent's not dying until high percentages... like 160+), I'm having a bit of a time with the following:

  • With players who can't approach (either because of their character having weak approach options, or the player themselves are just not good at approaching) which forces me to approach (usually by having solid projectiles that trumps needles or a good zoning game)
    • I find my safe options limited, and it feels to me that the approach mix-ups I have require a hard commit to both the mix-up and the prediction/reaction.
    • I find myself getting walled out by a lot of stuff I feel like I should (as Sheik) be able to get around.
    • As an aside, BF works wonders on folks who just stand and shoot their projectiles (I've utterly decimated several opponents who would either just stand and shoot thunderjolts with Pika, or Fireballs w/ Luigi, etc...) but its when they have a decent level of movement whilst utilizing said projectiles that I experience difficulty.
  • Controlling Sheik in the flow of a match. That is to say, in training mode - I can zip effortlessly around the stage, everything seems to come out just like I want it to, etc etc... though in a match she feels clunky (which, I know is a deficiency on my part, as Sheik is far from clunky) with me utterly whiffing attacks/grab attempts/etc.

  • As I mentioned before about opponents living until high percents... I know Sheik requires precision & waiting for the right moment to really land that solid KO option, but while waiting for/trying to set up that KO option, I wind up tacking on essentially useless chip damage while eating enough damage to be at KO percents myself... turning an 80%+, comfortable lead into a "next hit wins" scenario.

In addition to the above, a few random questions:
  1. What percents do you Sheik mains find your opponents living to consistently when you don't get an early gimp?
  2. I find myself struggling somewhat on flatter/longer stages (any Omega stage, FD, etc) both online and in person while excelling on platformed stages (naturally, as Sheik has a strong platform game...). Any tips to improve on these stages? Any tips to improve on these stages against chars that really enjoy them?
  3. What are some of your controller set-ups?

Thanks in advance for any help. ATM, I'm probably about 50/50 or 60/40 in terms of win/loss...I really enjoy using Sheik, but would enjoy it a lot more if I stopped losing to players & MU's I know I (as a player) should dominate (and do so as ROB) b/c I lack skill with the character as outlined above , and MU's I know Sheik should absolutely WRECK.
What characters have good enough projectiles that you're forced to approach? Needles are an amazing projectile, though admittedly the transcendent (do not clank, simply pass through everything; think Fox/Falco's lasers) priority can be a double edged sword. You should be able to bounce around safely and slowly tack on damage with needles until they're forced to approach; also, keep in mind that if you have the percent lead, you have no reason to approach!

As for being walled out and movement issues in match, that's mostly just character-familiarity stuff; you just need more practice is all. Also, Sheik's best attribute for getting around walls and the like is her top-class mobility: you can use it to feint in and out to bait out attacks/commitments, then punish.

Approaching safely: I'm not positive about this, but a well-spaced Fair is likely safe on shield. Also, have you seen the full range on this move? It's incredible; go to training and find the absolute maximum distance that it hits from, and approach with that. Also, mix it up with needles (not approaching) and empty short hops in; something not many people know that @Shaya found is that shields in this game release almost immediately, but only if they're hit. If your opponent shields, they're stuck in shield for somewhere around 15+ frames, if I remember right. Use that to your advantage, such as by mixing up your SH -> Fair approaches with SH -> Land -> Grab. Just don't get predictable!

As for killing... yeah that's just kind of Sheik. Your kill options are (sweetspot) Usmash, Bouncing Fish, Vanish, Bair, and... that's most of it I think. You're likely to get a lot of your kills from edgeguarding, but honestly your best bet (against most characters) is just to play extremely safely (which Sheik is good at) and tack on damage until they screw up/overcommit, and the Bouncing Fish. Getting your opponent to ~160% isn't too unreasonable for how safely Sheik can play, because if played correctly you shouldn't be getting hit very hard at all yourself. Easier said than done though, of course. Just don't fish for a kill; be patient and wait for them to screw up.

Questions:
1) Character-specific, but anywhere above like 130%. From there it's just a matter of "how long until they do something punishable?"
2) Fair strings are hilarious on flat stages, and Needles are great too. Not sure about the rest though, someone else would probably be better suited for answering this than me.
3) I personally use Tap Jump off, L as jump (hold-over from Brawl Falco, lets you use a low-lag SideB at ground height which is really handy), and C-stick set to Attack (Perfect Pivot tilts are handy, fast tilts are handy, and no stupid holding-cstick-stops-aerial-momentum bug). Mostly just personal preference though, really


I am totally unable to roll cancel grab and I have no idea what I'm doing wrong. I also cannot tell if I doing the other techniques right. Any advice on this?

Also seemingly unable to cancel bouncing fish at all. It's pretty discouraging haha.
I'm not actually positive the Roll Cancel Grab is in v1.04; I've heard mixed reports, but I do know that if it is in then it got both nerfed and the timing for it changed (not positive to what, though). I've also heard that Sheik gets more use out of Boost Grab (Dash Attack Cancel Grab), but honestly I'm not positive if it's in myself or not; it feels like it, but it may just be placebo.

And what do you mean by cancelling Bouncing Fish? Edge-cancelling it or something? I haven't actually been able to do that successfully in the Wii U version either, and I haven't tried on 3DS since v1.04 hit; potentially removed. Otherwise, the only 'cancel' I can think of is mashing B after landing it to regain normal aerial options, and that's legitimately just mash B until you do a second smaller kick.
 

Lavani

Indigo Destiny
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#12
I'm not actually positive the Roll Cancel Grab is in v1.04; I've heard mixed reports, but I do know that if it is in then it got both nerfed and the timing for it changed (not positive to what, though). I've also heard that Sheik gets more use out of Boost Grab (Dash Attack Cancel Grab), but honestly I'm not positive if it's in myself or not; it feels like it, but it may just be placebo.
As far as I can tell forward roll works the same as it always did and back roll no longer works for it.

You can definitely still cancel forward roll into dash grab or pivot grab with what feels like the same timing though.
 

Silverrida

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#13
I'm not actually positive the Roll Cancel Grab is in v1.04; I've heard mixed reports, but I do know that if it is in then it got both nerfed and the timing for it changed (not positive to what, though). I've also heard that Sheik gets more use out of Boost Grab (Dash Attack Cancel Grab), but honestly I'm not positive if it's in myself or not; it feels like it, but it may just be placebo.

And what do you mean by cancelling Bouncing Fish? Edge-cancelling it or something? I haven't actually been able to do that successfully in the Wii U version either, and I haven't tried on 3DS since v1.04 hit; potentially removed. Otherwise, the only 'cancel' I can think of is mashing B after landing it to regain normal aerial options, and that's legitimately just mash B until you do a second smaller kick.
Thank you!

Ahh okay. How exactly do you cancel your dash attack? Do you just shield as well? I've been reading that Shiek doesn't get a huge benefit from roll cancel grabbing myself so I suspect it is not just placebo.

With the bouncing fish that is what I meant. I suppose I just need to mash faster. Will work on it.

Appreciate the clarification!
 

Wasserwipf

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#14
Thank you!

Ahh okay. How exactly do you cancel your dash attack? Do you just shield as well? I've been reading that Shiek doesn't get a huge benefit from roll cancel grabbing myself so I suspect it is not just placebo.

With the bouncing fish that is what I meant. I suppose I just need to mash faster. Will work on it.

Appreciate the clarification!
You can cancel the first frames of your dash attack with a grab, and no other inputs. And yes, this increases your range.
It should look like this (slow gif). Yo can see the arm swing from the dash attack but then the cancel to the grab. Timing is rather strikt. Roll cancel grab on the other hand seems useless to me, but that might just be me. Anyway, gif, for the sake of it.
 

WondrousMoose

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#15
I created a thread for this, but it was locked, and I was sent here. Heh.

Anyway, how should I use down smash? I hate the idea of not using one of her attacks, but I can't think of when and why I would use it over up smash. It comes out quickly, though, so maybe it would go well with a perfect pivot. Of course, then why would I use it over a dash attack?
 

saviorslegacy

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#16
I created a thread for this, but it was locked, and I was sent here. Heh.

Anyway, how should I use down smash? I hate the idea of not using one of her attacks, but I can't think of when and why I would use it over up smash. It comes out quickly, though, so maybe it would go well with a perfect pivot. Of course, then why would I use it over a dash attack?
DSmash is good for punishing rolls. If you predict someone is going to roll behind you then use DSmash to punish them. It is quick, easy and there are multiple hit boxes so your timing does not have to be perfect.
 

keninblack

Smash Cadet
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#17
I have a question to Sheik players about how/if they're applying things...

-Wave Needle (B-Reverse Needle Cancel)
-Perfect Pivoting
-Dash Trotting

Maybe i'm just watching wrong videos. But so far videos of seen of high placing Sheik's are not doing any of these techniques consistently or maybe I'm just missing it? If you can link videos of any of this being used at a high level i'd appreciate it. Thanks!

In general with Perfect Pivots and Dash Trotting I'm not seeing anybody regardless of char utilize them yet, but they are very new so we'll see I suppose. APEX SOON!
 

Syde7

The Sultan of Smut
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#18
I have a question to Sheik players about how/if they're applying things...

-Wave Needle (B-Reverse Needle Cancel)
-Perfect Pivoting
-Dash Trotting

Maybe i'm just watching wrong videos. But so far videos of seen of high placing Sheik's are not doing any of these techniques consistently or maybe I'm just missing it? If you can link videos of any of this being used at a high level i'd appreciate it. Thanks!

In general with Perfect Pivots and Dash Trotting I'm not seeing anybody regardless of char utilize them yet, but they are very new so we'll see I suppose. APEX SOON!
Was watching a Xanadu stream the other night, I saw like... 2 players use/attempt to utilize the perfect pivot (one was a Fox, I can't remember the others; or the player names) but it didn't really seem effective in practice. One was just a total whiff and he wound up getting punished for it, the other was I think a U-tilt (can't recall now) but the result of it was something he could have gotten off a much easier to execute option (different hit, same result).

As far as B-reverse needle cancelling, I've used it once or twice near the end-game. Most recently - made the opponent think I was heading for the ledge by doing some SH Lagless Needle Cancells, did a dash -> b-reversal cancel immediately upon landing, into a U-smash that he jumped into (he reacted to the turnaround and saw the needle come out for just a moment so he was thinking to try to jump over the needles and hit me in my cooldown).

To me, the things about techs like is more about giving you one more "surprise" option (at least at this juncture in the metagame) as opposed to a consistent thing to abuse. In the example above, it was the end-game, he knew I was looking for a KO option: U-smash, edgeguard opportunity to finish with BF or B-Air, a roll-read into F-smash or D-smash, or (more specifically in the scenario I capitalized on) a Full-charge needle into something during his hitstun.

I hadn't used that tech the entire match (might have used it once for a grab where I ran in toward his shield making him think I would grab, b-reversed needle cancelled in the opposite direction, and then DAC grabbed him due to its longer range), so the element of surprise was still there. I had I used it much more often, I honestly don't think it would have worked.
 

JJpalmer

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#19
Would anyone be able to spar with me and rate my sheik ill see if i can get soem of my videos uploaded courtesy of my phone if not.
 

New_Dumal

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#21
It's there any set-ups for Vanish ?
It's not possible to DThrow to Vanish, or DTilt to Vanish ?

I'm not good at killing with Sheik, because of her lack of power.
Like the OP says, I usually finish my opponent stock with a Bair, or bouncing fish gimp, but is not that easy.
So if we force some chars to a "Vanish situation" , that would be wonderfull.
 

Syde7

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#22

HFlash

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#23
Which is better? Boost Grabbing or Roll Cancelled grabbing? Or is it situational?

Also, if I use A then shield to do the Boost grab, and I press A then shield really quickly, am I doing the boost grab? Maybe it's just me but I don't feel much of a difference between regular dash grabbing and boos grabbing "assuming I'm doing it correctly."
Edit: Second Q
 
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Dark_Ky

Smash Cadet
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#24
what are the inputs for the differents kinds/ranges of bounching fish?

at 4:26

is Sheik or ZSS easier to learn for a smash-beginner?
 

Wasserwipf

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#25
what are the inputs for the differents kinds/ranges of bounching fish?

at 4:26

is Sheik or ZSS easier to learn for a smash-beginner?
You can shorten / lengthen it by directing the control stick sideways in the direction you want. So lets say...
:GCD:+:GCB: while looking to the right for Bouncing Fish.
:GCR: will lengthen BF, while :GCL:will shorten it. make sure you input these AFTER the BF is iniciated, so you don't accidentially side B.
Also, inputting the opposite direction a few frames after BF will actually cause it to go to the other side.

For a Smash beginner, i would actually recommend non of these chars, i can't talk much for ZSS but Sheik has a rather high skill floor. On the other hand, if you're looking for a challange and want to play the most fun character in the game, you should pick up Sheik.
 

Silverrida

Smash Rookie
Joined
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Messages
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#27
You can cancel the first frames of your dash attack with a grab, and no other inputs. And yes, this increases your range.
It should look like this (slow gif). Yo can see the arm swing from the dash attack but then the cancel to the grab. Timing is rather strikt. Roll cancel grab on the other hand seems useless to me, but that might just be me. Anyway, gif, for the sake of it.
Thank you so much, this was immensely helpful!
 

Wasserwipf

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#28
I don't get the vanish cancelling, what exactly is he doing?
Uhm, either you are talking about "Vanish Gliding" or landing lag cancel.
Vanish Gliding is when you use Vanish out of a run, you will keep some momentum and slide on the ground. You can use this momentum, to slide over the ledge and convert it into aerial momentum. Here is a gif.
Using vanish above the ground will cause you to suffer a different amount of Landing lag. If you vanish directly onto the ground, you will have the Landing / grounded appear animation. If you teleport high you will end up in free fall, causing a lot of landing lag once you hit the ground. If you appear and land AFTER appearing but BEFORE the Free fall animation starts, you will suffer almost no landing lag (the exact amount depends on how high you appear... just experiment a bit).

Hope that explains a bit and answers your question.
 

_Tree

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#29
play the most fun character in the game
You sound a little biased Wasser XD

is Sheik or ZSS easier to learn for a smash-beginner?
I can speak for Zero suit a little here. On a general level, I'd say the Zero suit is harder. A lot of her combos, strings and setups just take a bit more...work to pull off. A lot of people in the Zero suit thread have warned against playing as her online, as you need to be precise to pull off stuff like paralyser -> Grab-> U-air ->
U-air -> Up-B. She's very rewarding though, so after you feel comfortable with the game give her a shot. I would call Sheik harder if we're talking about techniques. It's not exactly a difficult feat, but I would say she's the most technical character in the game, with stuff like the chaingrab, needle fidgeting and wave needling requiring pretty specific inputs and timing to pull off.
 

Bujuhh

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#31
Hey guys, I've decided to start playing sheik and I'm having trouble short hopping with sheik and executing her f-tilt. It seems like even when I barely flick the stick Sheik performs her f-smash instead of the desired f-tilt. Also, with the short hopping, I have been practicing in training but am still not executing the short hop as much as I would like. Should I keep practicing in training or is there a better/easier way to get good at or perform short hops? Any sheik help in general is also appreciated, however these are the main two thing I am struggling with. By the way I am playing on the gamepad since I cannot find a GC adapter anywhere. Thanks again.
 

Wasserwipf

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#32
Hey guys, I've decided to start playing sheik and I'm having trouble short hopping with sheik and executing her f-tilt. It seems like even when I barely flick the stick Sheik performs her f-smash instead of the desired f-tilt. Also, with the short hopping, I have been practicing in training but am still not executing the short hop as much as I would like. Should I keep practicing in training or is there a better/easier way to get good at or perform short hops? Any sheik help in general is also appreciated, however these are the main two thing I am struggling with. By the way I am playing on the gamepad since I cannot find a GC adapter anywhere. Thanks again.
If you click on the Smash screen, there is a small "controls" button. Go there, select your name and controler of choice, and then set the second / c-stick (the one on the right) from "smash" to "attack". If you do this, you can do F-tilts (and up and down) with the stick, what makes it alot easier. Oh, and when you're at it, you should get rid of the Stick-jump / tap-jump.

As for Shorthopping, always SH with the buttons (X and Y...) as those are the easiest. Ye, I would stick in training, however, its a bad idea to just stand still and shorthop. You should practice running around and shorthopping during it. Try to link Fastfalls into it as well, as this is the basic approach with sheik. Once you feel a little confortable, you could try adding aerials after the SH before the FF. Then you'll be fine.
 

MetaBhreat

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#33
Is it possible to turn around a Bouncing Fish?

I was over at the Sheik Video Thread and was watching False's Sheik, and there were times that he would BF and it almost looked as if he had switched directions with it.

BTW False's Sheik is so dirty. Great fun to watch.
 
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WondrousMoose

Mind the antlers
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#34
Is it possible to turn around a Bouncing Fish?

I was over at the Sheik Video Thread and was watching False's Sheik, and there were times that he would BF and it almost looked as if he had switched directions with it.

BTW False's Sheik is so dirty. Great fun to watch.
If you sliightly hold the direction opposite of where you're facing when you use it, you'll go that way.
 

Ralph Cecil

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#36
Does activating the kick on BF make the move end quicker/let you act out of it quicker? I've noticed some Sheiks do it early when it clearly won't hit anything and that's the only reason I could think of why.
 

Wasserwipf

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#37
Does activating the kick on BF make the move end quicker/let you act out of it quicker? I've noticed some Sheiks do it early when it clearly won't hit anything and that's the only reason I could think of why.
Yes. After you hit with BF, you'll flip back, and during that period, you can activte the second kick, that end before you land and have no lagg. if you land while doing the second kick or still in the backflip, you'll suffer some lag. make sure not to land on a platform tho.

Oh and on a side note, BF will always hit at the same time, regardless of distance you travel.
 

CrazyPerson

Smash Journeyman
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Jan 3, 2015
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#39
So I am thinking I may be settling on Shiek as a main. I like her speed, final smash is decent (I know items aren't used in competitive play, but playing with friends items will be on most of the time), some fun specials, I think I see the potential here.

And importantly... I think she will force me to learn the game better than I did the last one. The level I have smashed out is as basic as one can get... try and do damage try and dodge damage, and try and smash attack afterword.

Side B... what do you all think of it? I am trying to use that when my foe is off edge... having trouble timing and antisipating but that may come with practice. On stage... just seems to punishable unless I am in a team batlte with a partner in front of me.

 
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Jaxas

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#40
Side B... what do you all think of it? I am trying to use that when my foe is off edge... having trouble timing and antisipating but that may come with practice. On stage... just seems to punishable unless I am in a team batlte with a partner in front of me.
I'm actually going to second this question; I feel like there's a solid use for the grenade, but I'm really struggling to implement it into my gameplay, or even really see places for it (except for the 'sponge nade'; that's really handy, need to use it more).

It's slow/laggy enough that you can't just throw it out in neutral, doesn't help in advantageous state, too slow for disadvantage. Edge-cancel nades are neat, but telegraphed so heavily that they're only useful against people who don't know/forgot about them. The windbox is a hilarious way to gimp recoveries (I've killed a Diddy by windboxing his UpB into the edge of the stage, one of my favorite kills by far), but it doesn't work particularly well for that purpose.

'pit nades' are certainly useful against people who recover low, but outside of that and 'sponge nade' I'm just not seeing the utility outside of a surprise factor.

Oh, and also I heard that our optimal rest punish (there's a good local Puff main) is Grenade -> Bouncing Fish and that it true combos, but I must be doing something wrong because hitting puff with the grenade lets it shield the explosion and the BF. Do I just need to space it to where the actual toss won't hit it?
 
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