New Smash Bros for WiiU

[Aurane]

Man, I found out according to NeoGaf there's a rumored Pokemon Gray coming out soon.

Gray? Good lord, Gray?! Who saw THAT coming? Seriously?

 

[OmegaXXII]

I'm going to create a tier list for fun!

 

[y.toonlink]

[collapse=""]How about instead of focusing on where characters will be on tiers, I focus on fixing their balancing issues=???

Mario is always around the middle, often higher than the middle. I think he could use more strength and knockback. I also think the FLUDD needs to do damage, he needs to jump higher, and his fireballs need to come out quicker. More combos wouldn't hurt.

I honestly think FLUDD should be just an item, damage or not. He should be more like Doc in Melee to be up the on the tier list

Luigi is usually under Mario, and below or around the middle. He needs a better running attack (that or it needs to do more damage), he needs to jump higher, needs faster fireballs, and really needs more speed. He could also use a few more combo-able attacks.

Better recovery due to a better jump is also good.

Donkey Kong was slightly below average in 64 and Melee until he got somewhat fixed in Brawl. All he needs to do is to maybe get some better tilts from where he was at in Brawl, along with a better recovery.

Samus went from bottom in 64 to slightly above average in Melee to low tier in Brawl. She needs more speed. She walks about as slow as Bowser, and jumps super slow. She should be able to have more controllable DI to where she can drop quickly but remains floaty, and she probably needs more jumps. Samus in Brawl (and to a lesser extent, in Melee) lacked kill moves, and really much power. Samus could really use some more powerful moves, more combos, and more close-range strength(s).

In Melee she was good physics wise, so reverting back to that with better kill moves works.

Yoshi has generally been a bottom feeder in smash, although he went up a bit from each game to game. He needs better specials, probably more jumps, more combos, and to be much quicker. All of special attacks need to be more useful, and his up B needs to actually make him jump further. His down B should freeze nearby foes that aren't shielded or dodging, and his forward B actually needs to do... something useful! His up B should fire eggs faster, and his neutral B should leave opponents as eggs at higher percentage longer, and allow Yoshi to time out when to land a devastating blow.

Her SideB needs to be better for recovery and should have a little, but not too much, armor like her Double Jump. Standard B should have more stun time when in the egg. Speaking of double jump, she should have a triple jump. Not 4 like Pit or 6 like Kirby but just 3. The second jump should be a little higher than her first then the third of course would be the one with armor.

Kirby went from towards the top in 64 to near the bottom in Melee to still somewhere on the bottom in Brawl. He needs to have more combos like in 64 (but not as deadly combos), more speed, and his up B and down B need to be more useful. I think his down B should push foes back foes about 10 feet whenever the down B lands from just about anywhere within 25 feet on either side (although not doing damage), and maybe stun the foe for a quick third of a second, preventing them from harming Kirby immediately. This would allow Kirby to be a recovery GOD!!!!

Yes!

Fox has always been higher on the tiers in each smash game. All he needs is less range for his blaster, really.

Pikachu in Brawl had a broken as heck quick attack (up B). That probably needs to change, along with more useful tilts, and a better forward B.
Captain Falcon in 64 and Melee was near the top, but in Brawl he was a joke. The physics hurt him some, and so did the lack of combos, but he just didn't have any strong moves. He needs to be much faster, have faster moves, have combo-able moves, and have his ability to kill early and often more. Also, his Brawl recovery sucked. Give him his down B infinite again. I like the fast up B and how Pikachu has little lag frames after it, and I think that should stay (to allow Pikachu to remain a recovery God in exchange for weight and easy KO-ability), but attacking while doing it I think is a little too much.

CFalcon was hurt by Brawl physics. Pika's QA wasn't that broken in Brawl, in fact I think that's what brought it up on the tier list. Plus I liked using QAC It wasn't as broken as Fox's Shine at least

Ness has been towards the bottom in each Smash game. His PK Thunder (up B) as a projectile needs to be faster, when it lands it needs to do more (yes more) when he launches himself into foes, as well as send Ness much farther. His regular jumps need to jump higher, his tilts need to be more useful, his PK Fire (forward B) needs to have more range. His PK Flash (neutral B) needs to come out faster and be a legitimate off the stage kill move that goes farther. And lastly, his smash attacks need to be stronger, and he probably needs more combos. If he had more combos, he would be excellent.

Same as Yoshi, a third jump definitely helps recovery. I think PK Flash was fine in Melee, PK Fire has to have some sort of suction to make it harder to stay out of so Ness can combo.

[/collapse]

If the next SSB is anything like Melee, then physics won't be a problem.
Sorry I'm a little late on this, I've been on and off today

 

[Sunnysunny]

Kirby still does have combos. Hes one of the few characters in brawl that has combos that arn't just using the same throw repeatedly.
His problem right now is lack of mobility. =/

 

[SubparSmashBrother]

50 characters sounds good to me. But didn't Brawl have 24 starters? Why would said number increase by only one=???

Because all of the newcomers were unlockable except for the 2 I mentioned for some reason. And most of the brawl characters were unlockables too except for diddy kong. Don't ask, dream logic.

 

[OmegaXXII]

Gray? Good lord, Gray?! Who saw THAT coming? Seriously?

Yes, it supposed to be coming out and scheduled to be in development.

 

[Sunnysunny]

I'm going to create a tier list for fun!

DOOOOOO EEEEEEEEET!

capcapcapsss

 

[Madame puff]

If saki gets in shes most definitely gonna be high tier~

Ima say peach might be mid or high tier I: little mac high tier

 

[OmegaXXII]

I'm doing now DOOD!!!!

 

[JavaCroc]

Here's an idea I had recently.

In SSB64 and Melee, once a player has completed a match, the gameplay absolutely stops where it was, and the results screen shows up, zooming in on the player. In both these games, though, the results generally obscured the view of the player.

In Brawl, the results screen in normal modes was kept to the left side of the screen, and the zoom-in on the player was shown on the right side of the screen. In addition, when a match was finishing, instead of stopping the game altogether, characters would move in slow-motion until the results screen.

For SSB4, my idea for the results screen is that the player remains in control of their character even during the results. The basic idea is we get a results screen like Brawl's, but the player can still control their character and move around the stage as they please. If they kill themselves after finishing the match, it will not count against them.

In addition, I would like SSB64 and Melee's bonuses at the results screen to reappear. I thought it was cool how the game monitored your actions and told you whether you spam one move too much or know how to taunt your enemy.

 

[---]

Why Little Mac? He may not be popular in Japan, but that's really the only thing keeping him from getting in. Everything else I've seen going for his chances are for it. IMO, Little Mac is still the most likely new series newcomer.

I'm back.

Oops. I made a typo.

I ment that Ray's chances are the opposite of Little Mac's. Sorry for any confusion.

 

[Madame puff]

I'm doing now DOOD!!!!

O MMEE GAWWD. Peach for high or mid tier. :3

 

[Oasis_S]

50 characters sounds good to me. But didn't Brawl have 24 starters? Why would said number increase by only one=???

It had 21 slots, 25 total characters as starters.

Sm4sh could have... Goodness. 28? 32 starters?

 

[OmegaXXII]

Here's a partial tier list:

Peach
Megaman
Chrome
Ganondorf!!
Ray
Mewtwo!!

 

[Johnknight1]

They're really going to name it Gray, lol=??? (they're still saving Orange and Purple)

I thought they would go with like Rainbow to counter the ying and yang aspects.

@ y.toonlink
I updated said post with more specific details (I felt I wasn't specific enough). Here's the link.

For Mario, I think the FLUDD could be a useful kill move, and really add some depth to Mario's meta game casually and competitively.

Captain Falcon was hurt by Brawl's physics, but his crappy recovery and lack of priority or advantages with any moves is what kills him. His moves all do mediocre damage or knock back, and unlike Melee where you could at least be somewhat unpredictable with his recovery, his recovery is straight-forward, and he can get killed in the 40%'s easily. If Captain Falcon had higher jumps and the infinite down B recovery back, he would be great.

As for Pikachu, the Quick Attack is why he isn't below average. That IS his meta game. If Pikachu can't attack during his Quick Attack in the next smash bros game and remains the same otherwise, he will be a weak character. I think the next smash bros. game should eliminate said technique (that or give it to Pichu and make it super weak but combolicious! XD), and give him more strengths. Allow his moves to come out faster, make him a recovery God, and give him combos, faster running speed, and faster jumping speed, but don't make him so ridiculously fast and unpredictable.

But yeah, each smash bros game has had balancing problems, so I think that is why Sakurai is having more people help him. Really if Sakurai keeps characters like Mario and Luigi in any smash game where they are middle of the road at near everything, and a character like Donkey Kong with power but bad recovery, and Samus in Melee where she had excellent recovery but lackluster close-range combat as balanced as they are, or improves them slightly, and redos the broken or weak beyond belief characters, we could get a very good smash bros game.

 

[Madame puff]

Here's a partial tier list:

Peach
Megaman
Chrome
Ganondorf!!
Ray
Mewtwo!!

I love you.

 

[OmegaXXII]

I'm back.

Oops. I made a typo.

I ment that Ray's chances are the opposite of Little Mac's. Sorry for any confusion.

What? So who has more chances? I'm confused as to what you said earlier. :/

 

[---]

What? So who has more chances? I'm confused as to what you said earlier. :/

Basically this:

Little Mac > (Issac, Saki, Starfy) >> Ray

 

[OmegaXXII]

Mario should definetly have his tornado move over FLUUD back like John stated.

 

[Madame puff]

We're getting back on topic :D So how likely do you think it is that lucario will return? o:?

 

[Deleted member]

We're getting back on topic :D So how likely do you think it is that lucario will return? o:?

Lucario ~ Marginal

Pokemon will likely have five slots in SSB4, if we're lucky, six slots. As such, unlike Mewtwo, Lucario actually has a chance of staying and really, he shouldn't go away. He can fight decently and he represent the fourth generation. I'm hoping that the team goes for variety and keeps Lucario in.

What makes me really worried about his chances is that he has the huge threat of a 5th gen Pokemon replacing him. If Pokemon gets only four slots, as much as I hate to say this, Lucario is definitely getting the boot. If Pokemon gets five slots, he has a chance of staying, but he is still in danger of being replaced. However, while not guarantee, his chances are not completely thrown away.

We have to remember that there is no pattern for replacement yet in Pokemon franchises. This has only happened once and despite what other people say, Lucario did not replace Mewtwo, Mewtwo simply got dropped. As such, we cannot automatically assume that Lucario is facing the axe just because a 5th gen has arrived. Secondly, as I've said before, I think Mewtwo's sub-standard fighting in Melee contributed to his removal. Lucario does not have the same problem and I doubt Sakurai will just disregard Lucario. Furthemore, I don't think relevancy plays a part in veteran characters staying in, so I can't see that happening either.

I really hope Lucario stays for SSB4. Gen Four should not be forgotten just because it's time has passed and it would show that Gen One and Gen Five aren't the only gens Pokemon fans should know. There is no reason to drop Lucario. Unfortunately, 5th gen exist and that puts a huge dent on his chances.

Thoughts on Lucario's chances above.

 

[---]

We're getting back on topic :D So how likely do you think it is that lucario will return? o:?

Beats me what topic we were on.

Anyway I have confidence that Lucario will return, he isn't a Flavor of the Month character like some people see him as.

However, in a similar situtation to Mewtwo in Brawl, I do think he will have a lesser priority to Sakurai then the other Pokemon characters including Mewtwo.

 

[y.toonlink]

I think Pika was fine in Brawl, he's almost the same in Melee but with a better QA. Not everyone uses the QAC with Pika.

 

[---]

I think Pika was fine in Brawl, he's almost the same in Melee but with a better QA. Not everyone uses the QAC with Pika.

I personally love it, that and his many chain grabs.

Also Quick Question, if he did make it in Brawl, due to the change of physics, might we have seen Mewtwo's Teleport end up like QAC?

I'm just asking this since I'm still working on a buffed moveset, and don't want him to be overpowered.

 

[Madame puff]

Oh Good post. o:
i personally think he has a 50 50 chance to stay. I:
Anyways which pokemon (besides mewtwo) would you guys like to see over lucario?

 

[OmegaXXII]

Basically Mewtwo over Lucario is more likely!!

 

[Oasis_S]

With Victini/Zoroark over Mewtwo.

 

[OmegaXXII]

But they don't count, they don't interfere with Mewtwo.

 

[Madame puff]

Jigglypuff over all the pokemons >:I

 

[popsofctown]

Lucario's a goner. Smash games have only ever had the most recent gen and the first gen represented. It's a good philosophy to have, it gives us a pokemon that is either classic and nostalgic, or one that is familiar and recent. Gen 3 never received a rep, even though it was a great generation and could have been represented in Brawl. From Nintendo's point of view, no, middling Pokemon gens don't seem to matter.

Mewtwo still has great chances because he's gen 1. Personally I would like to see Mew with a similar moveset but that's not likely.

 

[OmegaXXII]

Exactly, but I wouldn't rule Lucario out completly just yet.

 

[Oasis_S]

But they don't count, they don't interfere with Mewtwo.

Just like Lucario in Brawl, Victini/Zoroark will have priority over Mewtwo.

 

[Madame puff]

A character i'd like to take lucario's place(if he is leaving) is lilligant. :3
I dont think we've had a special based pokemon yet. Lilligant could be a really nice addition.

 

[---]

Just like Lucario in Brawl, Victini/Zoroark will have priority over Mewtwo.

Perfect.

Although where would PT come in?

 

[SwayneGang]

You know, there is another option.......

 

[Madame puff]

Perfect.

Although where would PT come in?

lower priority then me punching the ground. And if you say you dont get it, Dont worry i dont either.

 

[OmegaXXII]

Just like Lucario in Brawl, Victini/Zoroark will have priority over Mewtwo.

Nope, they have priority over Lucario who is flavor of the month, the latest Pokemon, this is how I see it:

Pikachu
Jiggs
Pokemon Trainer
Victini/ Zoroark (flavor of the month)
Mewtwo/Lucario/Meowth/??? (veteran or new pokemon)

We are bound to get five slot, I don't see why Victini or Zoroark interfere with Mewtwo, if anything they don't relate to him, most likely it will be Lucario or a newer pokemon like Meowth, I don't think Mewtwo chances are hurt by them, also you have to take into effect that the Japanese want him as well, he isn't in the same situation as Roy necessarly.

 

[Deleted member]

I am sorry to say this, but I need to break this to you now before others do.

Junichi Masuda's favorite Pokemon being Victini will have no affect on his chances for better or worse.

Here is the reason: the Pokemon Company and Game Freak are two entirely different companies. Junichi Masuda is a main figure of Game Freak, not Pokemon Company. The Pokemon Company handles the sales and advertisement for the Pokemon franchise. When Sakurai refers to the Pokemon Company being difficult to deal with, he does not refer to Game Freak. That means Game Freak has no bearings on Smash content whatsoever, that goes to the Pokemon Company. Meaning that Junichi Masuda will have no role in which Pokemon characters gets in.

It hurts to hear this, but it is the truth. That said, it does not mean that Victini can't get in. He still has a lot of things going for his inclusion and he is still one of the most likely potential Pokemon newcomer we have there; it's just that Game Freak will have no say on which Pokemon will get in.

 

[OmegaXXII]

You know, there is another option.......

What would that be? What are you referring to?

@SSBFan: Where exactly did you find this information out?

 

[SwayneGang]

You know, they don't have to include a 5th or 6th gen Pokemon. If there are 5 slots reserved for Pokemon characters, we could have Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Pokemon Trainer, Mewtwo, and Lucario. Yes, you wouldn't see the newer generations getting represented, but no one's getting axed.