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New Smash Bros for WiiU

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Smooth Criminal

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And again, the players who are "good," don't play Smash Brothers the way it was designed and balanced.
If it was built into the game...

Edit: I seem to recall a lot of people shooting this ******** notion down a long time ago. You can play a game however the hell you want to play it. There is a core philosophy behind it---that everybody can pick it up and have fun with it---but that's about as far as it goes.

Harkening back to a blog I read a little while ago: You can't really speak for Sakurai, a game designer by trade, about how he wants to "balance" the gameplay. The players ultimately determine that and it pretty much applies to everybody, including the "pros."

Smooth Criminal
 
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That's nice
I expect an answer from you.
"I see X so X must be true."

A lot of what you said is conjecture and "I see it on the internet, so it must be true." Also, the argument of "Ganondorf sucks, so he must have a totally different moveset," makes no sense. He can be good with the same or similar moveset.
The Internet is the main way we as fans can voice our opinions on what characters we want for SSB4, how to improve the online, improve balancing, and of course, the demands to make clone characters unique. It is the main reason why Sonic got into Brawl and considering that I am 100% certain that we won't see thousands of fans march across Tokyo's city to have these requests filled, the Internet is our best and likely only tool to get the message out to the developers. Even if that can be done with a similar moveset, like I said, I highly doubt they're going to make Ganondorf any better unless he gets his own. If he remains shoddy with his own move set in Melee and Brawl, he will likely remain shoddy in SSB4.
The big problem is the "conventional wisdom." I saw the conventional wisdom all the time before Brawl's release (and thought it too) and it turns out everyone was dead wrong. The wisdom here is "Ganondorf must be total different." And who's to say? What about the people who like Ganondorf the way he is?
I'll be frank, if it comes to it, screw the Brawl Ganondorf's main, Sakurai should listen to the majority. The majority is not the Ganondorf's main, it's the people who wants Ganondorf to be able to stand with other characters properly.
Your suggestion of "Black Shadow will have Ganondorf''s moveset," was also echoed during Brawl. Everyone said he would take Ganondorf's moveset. What happened? Ganondorf stayed the same but with a slight change in some of his moves. Falco and Toon Link went the same direction as did Lucas and Wolf. This idea of "Everyone must be totally unique," is made by Smash Brothers fans on the internet and Sakurai obviously doesn't agree. All you are doing is spouting the conventional wisdom only to be proven wrong when the game comes out. Why not try to find out why Sakurai is doing this? It will give you more clarity.
Sakurai will never give an answer for why Ganondorf is a clone in Brawl (The answer he gave in Melee doesn't count as Ganondorf is established in the Super Smash Bros. series) and if he remains a clone in SSB4, we won't get answers for that either. As such, I'm not going to bother searching for it. What answer he'll give us will be him making up excuses.

And I never said that Black Shadow will be in SSB4 (Nor do I care much about a F-zero rep), but I am saying that Black Shadow taking Ganondorf's move set is the best chance for Ganondorf to receive his own move set and it's also the best deal Sakurai can offer to his fans. It gives us an unique Ganondorf and a second F-zero rep, even if Black Shadow is a semi-clone of Captain Falcon, it would at least make some sense, not to mention that this move will not alienate Ganondorf mains, they can simply move to Black Shadow. Even if Black Shadow isn't playable, Sakurai still has zero good excuses to keep Ganondorf a clone in SSB4, regardless of what you say.
I'll end with this: Why does Ganondorf need to be unique. What is there to gain by totally changing him and making a totally new character? Try and do this with out saying "It's to add more variety."
Ganondorf needs to be unique because it is insulting that the King of Evil is a clone of Captain Falcon. Just because he has similar body structure does not give the developers an excuse to make him as pathetic as he is. It would also fulfill a high requests among many gamers to make Ganondorf unique, which clearly overpowers those who want Ganondorf to remain the same.
 

Big-Cat

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So let's cut the SmashChu interaction short for today.

Does anyone have suggestions for a character that could be a rushdown monster?
 

Big-Cat

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Someone who strives to get in and inflict damage with speed and attacks that bring them in. A rushdown playstyle means you're playing in an in your face way. A good example is Cammy.
 
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Someone who strives to get in and inflict damage with speed and attacks that bring them in. A rushdown playstyle means you're playing in an in your face way. A good example is Cammy.
I may need to play Super Street Fighter II again, but would Ryu Hayabusa count as an example? What about Saki Amamiya? Would he count?
 

Hoots

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What do you mean by rushdown monster?
Someone like Felicia in MVC3.

Hmmmmmm....... I think Little Mac should be a rushdown monster.

Yeah! Saki could be a rushdown monster but in his game he's all about his lazer gun thing (and horrible voice acting)

:phone:
 

Big-Cat

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I may need to play Super Street Fighter II again, but would Ryu Hayabusa count as an example? What about Saki Amamiya? Would he count?
It would depend on what moves they give them, but I see Ryu as potentially a toolbox character as well.

Someone like Felicia in MVC3.

Hmmmmmm....... I think Little Mac should be a rushdown monster.

Yeah! Saki could be a rushdown monster but in his game he's all about his lazer gun thing (and horrible voice acting)

:phone:
Given Little Mac's relative size, he would probably be the best candidate for rushdown just based on design alone.

And speaking of Yun, that reminds me that not all rushdown characters play the same. Makoto in SF is kind of sort of a rushdown character like Cammy, but she works way differently.
 

Oasis_S

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Assuming it's what I imagine it to be, I've always thought Meowth would be a rushdown character. But I don't see him as very likely. :I

Smooth Criminal was the first person to post on page 777? How do you keep yourself from tripping all the time when you're so smooth?!
 
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@KumaOso: Do you think that Captain Falcon would count as a rushdown monster? He has speed and strong attacks.
 

Wylfred0852

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When will SSB4 get its own subforum? Sticking everything into a 700 page thread makes discussion difficult and searching through the thread is even worse.
 
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When will SSB4 get its own subforum? Sticking everything into a 700 page thread makes discussion difficult and searching through the thread is even worse.
There is no telling when we'll get it, but if lack of concrete of information is any indication, it won't be until E3 2012.
 

JavaCroc

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So let's cut the SmashChu interaction short for today.

Does anyone have suggestions for a character that could be a rushdown monster?
IMO, Samurai Goroh, given his athleticism and katana, could work as a rushdown monster - needing to close in on enemies to inflict the greatest amounts of damage possible.

For a WTF-type rushdown character, a possiblity is Jiro from the upcoming 3DS eShop game Rolling Western. He could use his rolling ability as a way to close in on enemies for close range combat; I don't see him as much of a long-range combatant anyways.

Plus, his tower-building ability in the game could make an interesting part of his moveset and distinguish him from other character (especially Sonic and other "roll around" characters); it could work similar to how Bkupa666 envisioned the "Building Block" move for Hamm in this moveset of his.

Just some ideas.
 

Big-Cat

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That reminds me, Jiro looks like he could bring something new to the table. And then there's the towers for potential zoning. Reminds me of my Tom Nook idea, except with better all around mobility and weaker damage.
 
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That reminds me, Jiro looks like he could bring something new to the table. And then there's the towers for potential zoning. Reminds me of my Tom Nook idea, except with better all around mobility and weaker damage.
Jiro would certainly be an interesting new character. I'm just hoping that sales don't bomb when the game The Rolling Western comes out so he can be relevant enough to get into SSB4.
 

Hoots

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Jiro would certainly be an interesting new character. I'm just hoping that sales don't bomb when the game The Rolling Western comes out so he can be relevant enough to get into SSB4.
I would absolutely love Jiro. I'm the biggest Western *** around so an Armadillo with a cowboy hat is ridiculously epic to me.

:phone:
 

Starphoenix

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I don't care about Western, we need some grungy, post-apocalyptic content in the next game!
 

Big-Cat

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Sales probably won't matter as much considering it's a downloadable title. That automatically cuts out the expenses for manuals, cases, and cartridges.

I'm gonna go and bring up a briefly discussed topic - Canceling. I would like to see this make a proper debut into the Smash series. Right now, we have jump canceling in a non-FG form and IASA frames on other moves, but let's go further with this. The main cancels I want to see in particular are chains and special canceling.

Here's a Smash example with Lucario in the Project M mod.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bxRCPbk_E4

While the modders call it "On-Hit-Canceling", the type of thing you see her is usually referred to chains when it involves normals. While this seems overly powerful, given the damage output, you could probably tweak that, but anyway, notice that it increases the pace of the game big time. Lucario dealt 50% damage in less than ten seconds which also means that rewards are much higher and DI then plays less of a role, but is still important for mixups.

An example with another character would be Krystal (using my moveset) with AAA>FTilt>DSmash>Down B. These combos are short, but effective so anyone fearing to memorize long combos shouldn't have to worry as much and fans of DI can rejoice as it's needed to have longer combos.

Now how about jump-canceling on hits? Like the above combo, what if I continue with a jump cancel, eliminating down B's recovery, and go into NAir>jump cancel>Dair>Downward Side B?

Lastly, there's special canceling (separate from chains which are just normals) which is the same as chains except you can't special cancel into other specials (unless specified).
 

JavaCroc

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That reminds me, Jiro looks like he could bring something new to the table. And then there's the towers for potential zoning. Reminds me of my Tom Nook idea, except with better all around mobility and weaker damage.
Any towers he build could be used for zoning or camping. Also, he could knock down his towers on enemies to inflict moderate to heavy damage and as a potential kill move. However, his opponents could also knock down his towers on top of him.

As for one of his (limited) long-range options, he could use a lasso as a long-range grab and tether recovery.

I definitely imagine Jiro as a character with superior mobility, but lacking power. No telling what his full moveset would be until people have a chance to play his game, though.
Jiro would certainly be an interesting new character. I'm just hoping that sales don't bomb when the game The Rolling Western comes out so he can be relevant enough to get into SSB4.
Yes, that's true. Hopefully Nintendo will do a good job advertising his game - I don't see his game or his SSB4 chances faring well if Nintendo's marketing team is lazy with the game.

EDIT: @StarPhoenix
[COLLAPSE=Brotherhood of Steel]
[/COLLAPSE]
Brotherhood of Steel for SSB4! ;)
 

Oasis_S

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blah blah blah
Shut up I want all of this. Yehs.

I don't think I've seen Jiro suggested very much, oddly. (ActuallyIdidn'tknowwhohewasuntilvisitingthisboardlolol) I'm sure there were a few characters from the pre-Brawl days that we're forgetting... Demille? Prince Sable (Richard)?

Also, should I get to work on that Ridley moveset? I kind of feel like it's pointless since there's no way to predict what direction Sakurai would take with him. The only point it'd prove is that I could make a moveset based on how I think he should be portrayed. :/
 

JavaCroc

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Shut up I want all of this. Yehs.

I don't think I've seen Jiro suggested very much, oddly. (ActuallyIdidn'tknowwhohewasuntilvisitingthisboardlolol) I'm sure there were a few characters from the pre-Brawl days that we're forgetting... Demille? Prince Sable (Richard)?
I remember the speculation on those characters. Both aren't bad options. I enjoyed parrothead's take on a moveset for Demille here.

EDIT: Go ahead on the Ridley moveset. I'd like to if there's another good Ridley moveset beyond ShadowHydra's great one.

BTW, this is just an idea for a part of Ridley's moveset, but I'm wondering what people think: could Ridley change between his normal and Meta forms by death? For example, you start the match as Ridley. When Ridley dies, he doesn't just respawn again; he is "rebuilt" and spawns as Meta Ridley, who would have his own moveset differences. After you die as Meta Ridley, he is "reborn" as Ridley, and the process continues. IMO, this idea could distinguish him from other characters and would require some good strategy on the part of the player, since he'd need to be prepared to fight as either form of Ridley after death.
 

Big-Cat

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Shut up I want all of this. Yehs.

Also, should I get to work on that Ridley moveset? I kind of feel like it's pointless since there's no way to predict what direction Sakurai would take with him. The only point it'd prove is that I could make a moveset based on how I think he should be portrayed. :/
lol I like your response

Go ahead and make a moveset. I want to see how you envision Ridley.

@JavaCroc
Camping's a sub-type of zoning. Zoning covers different things.
 

Starphoenix

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Why Jill Valentine? We have Sin and Punishment and Advance Wars (especially Days of Ruin) that can cover that..

:phone:
 

Big-Cat

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Shortie just wants Jill in? And neither Tsumi to Batsu nor Advance Wars have zombies!
 

Shorts

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Why Jill Valentine? We have Sin and Punishment and Advance Wars (especially Days of Ruin) that can cover that..

:phone:
They're fine too, grunge and post apocalypse makes me think of Zombies.

Kuma's right. I'm going through an anti Megaman phase right now.

And if any Batsu gets in, I want this one. I realllllllly want Rival Schools. I love the characters. Natsu is by far my favorite.
 

Starphoenix

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pssshhh, who needs zombies? Post-apocalyptic is more or less deserted and ruinous settings with dark coloring.

:phone:
 
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I noticed that Arcadenik brought up the Virtual Console in here when counting relevancy. Now this has me curious. Do you think that the Virtual Console could contribute to a character's relevancy in a positive way and if so, how much? And to Arcadenik, why did you bring up the Virtual Console in the first place? My answer to the first question; I am not very sure about this, but I am not going to rule this out as a possibility.

Take Geno for example (I know he has a very low chance, but bear with me). Yes, he hasn't appeared in any new games since 2003, but Super Mario RPG: Legends of the Seven Stars, a game which Geno is known for, did release on the Virtual Console on June, 2008 in Japan and August, 2008 elsewhere. This game was not only successful on the SNES (over a million IIRC), but I also remember it selling very strongly for quite awhile, being on the Top 10 for months. Unlike most game, this one had lots of staying power and as such, created a generation of fans of the game and Geno. And also, why was it the first game from Squaresoft on the Virtual Console in North America and Europe and why was it North America's 250th VC game? Also, why was it among the most requested games for the Virtual Console? I believed that massive fan demand for Geno in SSBB may have gotten Nintendo's attention to release the game on the Virtual Console and Nintendo may not have totally forgotten about Geno.

What's ironic about this is that no one who supports Geno uses the fact that this game came out on the Virtual Console when it's quite possibly the best reason for why Geno has a slight chance of being in SSB4 and possibly the only major thing that could count towards Geno's inclusion. If a miracle occurs to fans eyes and Geno is playable in SSB4, I think this would be proof that the Virtual Console counts as relevancy.
 

Oasis_S

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Then maybe Sukapon is kind of maybe relevant? D8
Joy Mech Fight was released in Japan on the VC in March '08...

SUKAPOOON.
 

DarkChris126

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i dont know about you guys but i can really picture chris red field in smash bros 4, think about it, he has a pretty good chance, he has a lot of weapons that he can bring over to smash 4, and he has been on a nintendo device, the 3DS with mercenaries, so i think he has a good chance. any one else think so?
 
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