New Smash Bros for WiiU

[Conviction]

Word? Please link me if you can find it. I've tired of hearing both and then getting confused.

 

[ssbowns]

Only problem is that MvC 3 had some bad character management. Sure, it could be done, but it's not the best idea. It's like waking up one morning being in a different house with a different family. All it will do is alienate the old players of that character. If they wanted a completely different character, they'd play one of the other 34.

Capcom isn't really known for respecting their established basis. Look at the Resident Evil 4/5 arguing for example. And now Capcom is considering complete reboot.

That said I don't think changing Jill was that bad. We haven't seen her usual S.T.A.R.S herself in a while and honestly I quite liked how she was done in RE5 so seeing that in MvC3 wasn't bad either. It's fun the characters change with time in crossover games too. Wesker and Chris are like stripped straight from RE5 so doing the same for Jill only made sense.

Though I'd really hate if SSB4 featured the rebooted Hayabusa (though he might not be that bad or different but there's the chance) instead of the currently known one.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFTvXXoDNRA&playnext=1&list=PL86ED10BB52234151

This isn't the video from UltraDavid that I was originally looking for but I think it's about comparable.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Conviction]

2nd round

Thanks Smooth!

 

[Smooth Criminal]

No problem!

Just make sure you watch all of the videos in the series. Otherwise you probably won't get it.

Smooth Criminal

 

[OmegaXXII]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFTvXXoDNRA&playnext=1&list=PL86ED10BB52234151

This isn't the video from UltraDavid that I was originally looking for but I think it's about comparable.

Smooth Criminal

Whoa!! That's some hardcore ****!!!

I really need to get into to scene a little more. :/

 

[Oasis_S]

Man, I don't think I could ever wrap my head around competitive fighting games. :/

It's like some extreme rock, paper, scissors game, lol.

 

[Conviction]

Wow, that just put 3 concepts I knew into one. I got a lot of solid ideas now that I can start practicing.

 

[Big-Cat]

Anything that puts you behind your opponent. So foward roll and empty short hop. If the opponent doesn't shield while you are Empty short hopping, throw out an aerial. If they do shield you end up having positional and frame advantage.

That's not what I had in mind for crossups, but it's similar enough. The key thing with FG crossups is that it forces the opponent to block forward.

Kuma is there the concept of Stage Control in SF?

I'm not sure what you mean by stage control, but the equivalent of it is zoning I think. Limit how much they can move with projectiles and traps.

 

[nLiM8d]

Edited by xeGo.

 

[Deleted member]

Well, let's think about the sword thing first. He has that as a taunt in Brawl and a victory pose in Melee. But he never uses it. Why? That's the think. Think more why and not "It should be." He had it in Melee and Sakurai has said he would have not been in otherwise. So that explains Melee. But why Brawl? One thing Sakurai does well is he understands that people who play with Ganondorf enjoy how he plays and he sees no reason to alienate those people by totally changing the character.

I never got this whole "Every character has to be unique thing." It's not like there is a lack of variety and many people will tell you that these characters are still very different. Sakurai even went and made a lot of the old Melee clones different. Ganondorf has quite a few new moves as does Falco. Toon Link is totally different from Young Link and Link. Sakurai is more conserned with making characters work which is why some characters have similar special moves. They make the character more down to earth. Could he change them more? Sure. But he doesn't need to totally revamp characters so some players can say the game has more variety and never touch those characters.

Also, tier list don't matter. Sakurai has said that online the success rate for characters is about even and 95% or more of the players don't care.

Would you rather have Ganondorf not suck (Thought not necessarily overpowered) and be completely unique or have a fifth Zelda rep? My vote goes the former because Zelda doesn't deserve a whopping three characters low on the tier list.

I don't see many people that likes to play with Ganondorf, especially not on the Internet. When I played online, Ganondorf was among the characters I saw the least. That shows that people don't like playing as Ganondorf in Brawl, because people recognize that his playstyle is not good. Plus unlike other characters, Ganondorf has a very large demand to be unique and not many people disagree with this idea. It's gotten to the point where people suggest Black Shadow should get in to take his move set so that Ganondorf gets his own. I guarantee you that more people will be satisfied with Ganondorf receiving a completely new move set then Ganondorf remaining as poor as he is. If they won't give him a new move set, they should at least improve him. However, I do not see any improvement being made with Ganondorf remaining a clone.

Also, Sakurai has the balls to say that a lagfest like Brawl's online shows that characters have an about even rate? That's not even close to showing how well a character does overall.

Not in SSB4, probably not in SSB5 either, plenty of Nintendo power to left for it (them). Sure thinking that much ahead is pretty pointless but I did it anyway.

I guess you're asking if "I" want Master Chief and the gang in eventually. The answer is why not. Snake and Sonic are fun characters and I don't see why Ratchet and Gordon couldn't be just as fun. They're iconic, have big fanbase, they have the movelist potential and matching them against each other as well as the Nintendo army would undoubtely be fun.

Yahtzee was poking fun at it in his Marvel vs Capcom 3 review (I think it was it) Zero Punctuation review, but I honestly think a fighting game "Everyone vs everyone" could be amazing.

Though I don't really wonder why they (it) don't get much requests. Many of them are on different consoles, it's awfully unrealistic (even more than the usual fan ideas are) and most people I know just say now and then that it would be cool but no one really expects it. I don't expect it to happen either but I would certainly buy it.

Sonic and Snake have at least some history with Nintendo, Master Cheif does not. If the series will no longer be a "Nintendo All-Star" event, it should at least celebrate characters with a long history with Nintendo. If an Everyone Vs. Everyone event happens, it should not be the Super Smash Bros. series.

 

[Conviction]

That's not what I had in mind for crossups, but it's similar enough. The key thing with FG crossups is that it forces the opponent to block forward.


I'm not sure what you mean by stage control, but the equivalent of it is zoning I think. Limit how much they can move with projectiles and traps.

Cross-ups work really well into baiting. It depends on your character. Since I know a lot about Fox I'll use him as the example. Since most people who know the Fox MU or at least read about it know that Nair is one of Fox's best aerials when approaching due to it's versatility, disjoint and how you can vary the timing. So when the opponent expects you to Nair once Fox is in range instead of throwing out the Nair, empty short hop through their shield and land behind them.

Usually I turn around and grab after I cross-up, but when you know your opponent has a spotdodge or rolling habit you can punish those off reaction when they do. You have the position advantage. Also during mid short hop if they drop their shield, as mentioned earlier Fox can Nair, Bair, or Dair them for doing so.

Yeah stage control seems to only be a small part of zoning. That video just educated me so now I know I got a lot of things I'll be learning.

 

[Big-Cat]

Man, I don't think I could ever wrap my head around competitive fighting games. :/

It's like some extreme rock, paper, scissors game, lol.

Well, here's what I did to get in. Mess around with the characters and do whatever and learn what's best by trial and error and reading up on strategies for the character.

Once you get into this extreme rock, paper, scissors, it's very very fun.

 

[Conviction]

Yeah people complain about camping and all that but the game is actually really fun once you get into and understand it. That's why you should pick the character you enjoy the most so when you are in the learning process it's as fun as possible.

 

[OmegaXXII]

Would you rather have Ganondorf not suck (Thought not necessarily overpowered) and be completely unique or have a fifth Zelda rep? My vote goes the former because Zelda doesn't deserve a whopping three characters low on the tier list.

I don't see many people that likes to play with Ganondorf, especially not on the Internet. When I played online, Ganondorf was among the characters I saw the least. That shows that people don't like playing as Ganondorf in Brawl, because people recognize that his playstyle is not good. Plus unlike other characters, Ganondorf has a very large demand to be unique and not many people disagree with this idea. It's gotten to the point where people suggest Black Shadow should get in to take his move set so that Ganondorf gets his own. I guarantee you that more people will be satisfied with Ganondorf receiving a completely new move set then Ganondorf remaining as poor as he is. If they won't give him a new move set, they should at least improve him. However, I do not see any improvement being made with Ganondorf remaining a clone.

THIS!! I agree with all this, especially the stuff in bold, Ganondorf has been highly requested to have a unique moveset, if Sakurai in SBB4 doesn't give him something unique to go by then I believe all hope will be lost for any future installments, it will be truly disappointing, I don't think character alignment would play a big factor consider he isnt even played much do to him having a poor moveset plus being so low on the tier list.

 

[Oasis_S]

Maybe if Sm4sh shapes up to be as competitive as Melee and as... polished? (???) as Brawl then I'll try and get into the competitive scene. :I

Unfortunately I have to discredit myself and doubt my ability to think quickly enough ON MY TOESIES to be a competitive player, LOL. U3U

Would be cool if my Ridley was the strongest Ridley in the whole world. >8O

 

[Pseudomaniac]

Ganondorf deserves to have his own unique moveset. If you have ever played OoT or Twilight Princess, you'll agree. He has so much potential to be an awesome character and instead he plays like Captain Falcon as an old man. If people really want a slow, heavy, stronger semi-clone of captain falcon just add Black Shadow and give him Ganondorf's old moveset.

 

[ssbowns]

If an Everyone Vs. Everyone event happens, it should not be the Super Smash Bros. series.

Fair enough. Thing is Smash Bros is the one getting closest to that. Nintendo is the gaming's biggest giant and pretty much the only one who could gather characters from every gaming house. Though Nintendo has other dev teams.

At some point SSB will have covered everything Nintendo. You say they should pull the plug at that point. I say they should expand outside Nintendo and their closest allies/rivals at that point.

But talking about this is moot before SSB4 at the very least.

 

[Deleted member]

Ganondorf deserves to have his own unique moveset. If you have ever played OoT or Twilight Princess, you'll agree. He has so much potential to be an awesome character and instead he plays like Captain Falcon as an old man. If people really want a slow, heavy, stronger semi-clone of captain falcon just add Black Shadow and give him Ganondorf's old moveset.

I would love for this to happen. It gives F-zero a second rep and makes Ganondorf unique, but I am not sure if the team will go with this considering that Black Shadow is not as requested as Samurai Goroh and that F-zero is on a hiatus.

 

[Pseudomaniac]

I would love for this to happen. It gives F-zero a second rep and makes Ganondorf unique, but I am not sure if the team will go with this considering that Black Shadow is not as requested as Samurai Goroh and that F-zero is on a hiatus.

Personally I've always thought Takamaru would get in over Goroh (thus making Goroh kind of redundant) but that's just me. Although if Black Shadow and Takamaru got in over Goroh there would be a s***storm over here anyway. And of course your point about F-zero's hiatus still stands.

 

[Oasis_S]

I would love for this to happen. It gives F-zero a second rep and makes Ganondorf unique, but I am not sure if the team will go with this considering that Black Shadow is not as requested as Samurai Goroh and that F-zero is on a hiatus.

I'd agree that adding Black Shadow would solve a lot of problems, but you just know when the roster is leaked, he'll be like the new Wolf. "I CAN'T BELIEVE THEY GAVE US ANOTHER CLONE INSTEAD OF TOAD/KRYSTAL/RIDLEY/SUKAPON."

Of course Wolf wasn't a clone to begin with so all the hate he got/gets is UNFOUNDED. >:O

Also, I wouldn't think Takamaru and Goroh are in a competition with each other over a slot for a katana user. Takamaru has other abilities to take advantage of aside from his swordmanship, and he would definitely feel different. As a trained swordsman, his strikes would feel more... deliberate? I'm not sure I put that kind of stuff into words. Anyway, Goroh would feel more like a brawler with a sword. Slice here and there, followed by a punch or a kick... I dunno. :3 IT'S FUN TO THINK ABOUT~

 

[Big-Cat]

Maybe if Sm4sh shapes up to be as competitive as Melee and as... polished? (???) as Brawl then I'll try and get into the competitive scene. :I

Unfortunately I have to discredit myself and doubt my ability to think quickly enough ON MY TOESIES to be a competitive player, LOL. U3U

Would be cool if my Ridley was the strongest Ridley in the whole world. >8O

Just have fun with the game and don't worry about winning or losing. What I've told some people is to not necessarily think, but feel. Go with the flow of things.

That's probably a little too deep to explain though.

 

[Lightosia]

About the Ganon using sword, I'd like to remember this entry:

http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/characters/hidden09.html

"What are you putting it away for? Use it! People tend to make fun of Ganondorf for this."

Yeah, Sakurai. You are a troll.

 

[Deleted member]

Personally I've always thought Takamaru would get in over Goroh (thus making Goroh kind of redundant) but that's just me. Although if Black Shadow and Takamaru got in over Goroh there would be a s***storm over here anyway. And of course your point about F-zero's hiatus still stands.

I would just be glad that we finally get a second F-zero rep.

I'd agree that adding Black Shadow would solve a lot of problems, but you just know when the roster is leaked, he'll be like the new Wolf. "I CAN'T BELIEVE THEY GAVE US ANOTHER CLONE INSTEAD OF TOAD/KRYSTAL/RIDLEY/SUKAPON."

Of course Wolf wasn't a clone to begin with so all the hate he got/gets is UNFOUNDED. >:O

I'm sure Ridley will be playable if Black Shadow is. However, he has major relevancy issues, which could keep him and a second F-zero rep period from SSB4.

Actually, I'm not sure if F-zero deserves a second rep anymore. I used to be a supporter of Samurai Goroh, now I'm not sure on him. Same with Black Shadow.

 

[SmashChu]

Would you rather have Ganondorf not suck (Thought not necessarily overpowered) and be completely unique or have a fifth Zelda rep? My vote goes the former because Zelda doesn't deserve a whopping three characters low on the tier list.

That's nice

I don't see many people that likes to play with Ganondorf, especially not on the Internet. When I played online, Ganondorf was among the characters I saw the least. That shows that people don't like playing as Ganondorf in Brawl, because people recognize that his playstyle is not good. Plus unlike other characters, Ganondorf has a very large demand to be unique and not many people disagree with this idea. It's gotten to the point where people suggest Black Shadow should get in to take his move set so that Ganondorf gets his own. I guarantee you that more people will be satisfied with Ganondorf receiving a completely new move set then Ganondorf remaining as poor as he is. If they won't give him a new move set, they should at least improve him. However, I do not see any improvement being made with Ganondorf remaining a clone.

[/QUOTE]
"I see X so X must be true."

A lot of what you said is conjecture and "I see it on the internet, so it must be true." Also, the argument of "Ganondorf sucks, so he must have a totally different moveset," makes no sense. He can be good with the same or similar moveset.

The big problem is the "conventional wisdom." I saw the conventional wisdom all the time before Brawl's release (and thought it too) and it turns out everyone was dead wrong. The wisdom here is "Ganondorf must be total different." And who's to say? What about the people who like Ganondorf the way he is?

Your suggestion of "Black Shadow will have Ganondorf''s moveset," was also echoed during Brawl. Everyone said he would take Ganondorf's moveset. What happened? Ganondorf stayed the same but with a slight change in some of his moves. Falco and Toon Link went the same direction as did Lucas and Wolf. This idea of "Everyone must be totally unique," is made by Smash Brothers fans on the internet and Sakurai obviously doesn't agree. All you are doing is spouting the conventional wisdom only to be proven wrong when the game comes out. Why not try to find out why Sakurai is doing this? It will give you more clarity.

I'll end with this: Why does Ganondorf need to be unique. What is there to gain by totally changing him and making a totally new character? Try and do this with out saying "It's to add more variety."

Also, Sakurai has the balls to say that a lagfest like Brawl's online shows that characters have an about even rate? That's not even close to showing how well a character does overall.

Then what is a better measure?

 

[Pseudomaniac]

I'll end with this: Why does Ganondorf need to be unique. What is there to gain by totally changing him and making a totally new character? Try and do this with out saying "It's to add more variety."

Have you ever played Ocarina of Time or Twilight Princess? It's shameful for Ganondorf to be this pathetic in Smash Bros, especially when he has so much potential that can be gleaned just from those 2 boss fights. And what's the problem with variety?

 

[OmegaXXII]

Would be cool if my Ridley was the strongest Ridley in the whole world. >8O

Ridley being Top Tier?

Lol..that would be awesome, but then again he would probably get some BRoomers upset and probably end up banning him for tourneys.:/

 

[Big-Cat]

Then what is a better measure?

There's no real best way other than matchup charts, but like tier lists (which made be made up by the former), they tend to change.

The big problem with Sakurai's measurements, is that lag is a major factor in the results. The amount of lag in a match depends entirely on the players' connections. Therefore, there's no real consistency. The other problem is that because of lag, some players simply choose to not play online because they find it unbearable to play on. This means that your better players may or may not show up in online matches and they can show the strengths and weaknesses of the characters better.

And you're no better with your conjectures. Unlike the majority of people, you treat your theories as facts, and knowing your past, you don't believe in changing anything for various reasons which is fine and all, but you completely stomp on new ideas. Also, given that Brawl's priorities were messed up, it's quite possible Ganondorf was planned for a new moveset, but that's just conjecture.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Kuma spitting that truth.

<3

Smooth Criminal

 

[Oasis_S]

Ridley being Top Tier?

Lol..that would be awesome, but then again he would probably get some BRoomers upset and probably end up banning him for tourneys.:/

Not necessarily. It would just be cool if I was able to be the best with my favorite character~
Even if he sucks and looks like Other M Ridley, I'd still play as him and be happy that he finally made it to Smash~

And what's the problem with variety?

What indeed? :/
If fans are still going on about wanting a more unique Ganondorf, what's the problem with pleasing them, lol.

 

[Hoots]

Not necessarily. It would just be cool if I was able to the best with my favorite character~
Even if he sucks and looks like Other M Ridley, I'd still be happy that he finally made it to Smash~

Surely you jest. Other M Ridley? On that case, it might be better if he just stays out. I don't want Woody Woodpecker in my Smash. Talk about humiliating the character.

 

[Oasis_S]

Surely you jest. Other M Ridley? On that case, it might be better if he just stays out. I don't want Woody Woodpecker in my Smash. Talk about humiliating the character.

IF IT MEANS I CAN PLAY AS MY FAVORITE CHARACTER, I WILL LEARN TO ACCEPT IT IN TIME. U3U

Hopefully, if that does turn out to be the case, we also finally get alternate costumes so you'd have Other Ridley, Meta-Ridley, Mecha Ridley, and just plain ol' RIDLEY.

 

[Hoots]

IF IT MEANS I CAN PLAY AS MY FAVORITE CHARACTER, I WILL LEARN TO ACCEPT IT IN TIME. U3U

Hopefully, if that does turn out to be the case, we also finally get alternate costumes so you'd have Other Ridley, Meta-Ridley, Mecha Ridley, and just plain ol' RIDLEY.

Sakurai nailed his design in Brawl and hell, he looks awesome in the melee opening. I pray he doesn't feel the need to mutilate Ridley just for the sake of "relevance".

Pterodactyl>Woodpecker

 

[OmegaXXII]

I'll end with this: Why does Ganondorf need to be unique. What is there to gain by totally changing him and making a totally new character? Try and do this with out saying "It's to add more variety."

I don't mean to be an *** about it, but why is it that you fail to realize his potential? You asked a good question but ask yourself this? What is there to gain from keeping him the way he is? He is already freakin slow and has no uniqueness in Brawl whatsover aside from a minor modification.

If anything there are way more pros than cons to it, and what's wrong with variety?? If anything he would be improved much more significantly if he became unique rather than him staying the same, not only that but Sakurai or Sora would probably further improve with him if we ever got a Smash 5.

The point of all this is that there's alot of room to work with, he ISN'T limited to just some Falcon moves, the Falcon moves would better suit Black Shadow, he's already heavy like Ganon would plus he's from the same franchise, I see no problem with that, and if you think he's good the way he already is, get real!! The community doesn't agree otherwise.

 

[Oasis_S]

Sakurai nailed his design in Brawl and hell, he looks awesome in the melee opening. I pray he doesn't feel the need to mutilate Ridley just for the sake of "relevance".

Pterodactyl>Woodpecker

I agree so hard. I suppose an argument could be made that Other Ridley's more humanoid design might make implementing him a bit easier, but GOURD I hope that's not the case. :/

 

[SmashChu]

There's no real best way other than matchup charts, but like tier lists (which made be made up by the former), they tend to change.

The big problem with Sakurai's measurements, is that lag is a major factor in the results. The amount of lag in a match depends entirely on the players' connections. Therefore, there's no real consistency. The other problem is that because of lag, some players simply choose to not play online because they find it unbearable to play on. This means that your better players may or may not show up in online matches and they can show the strengths and weaknesses of the characters better.

The thing is that 99% of the people don't play Smash the way the match up and tier list were designed around. They wont be relevant to how most people play this game.

Note that not everyone has lag and some people still just play though it. If lag was a major change in who people picked, than Ness and Lucas would have the lowest success. It stilla good sample a large number of people play it of varying skill levels. And again, the players who are "good," don't play Smash Brothers the way it was designed and balanced.

Thanks for a good answer to the question.

And you're no better with your conjectures. Unlike the majority of people, you treat your theories as facts, and knowing your past, you don't believe in changing anything for various reasons which is fine and all, but you completely stomp on new ideas. Also, given that Brawl's priorities were messed up, it's quite possible Ganondorf was planned for a new moveset, but that's just conjecture.

Not going to talk about everything, but my mentality is "If it aint broke." New isn't always better. Smash Brothers has grown in sales with each game and Nintendo's own data shows it's the second most played Wii game. Not much reason to change it and bring in new ideas because it doesn't need it. It would be better to refine what it already does so well.

The ones who have to change, I've always said, were the other fighting games. They sales have slumped over the years. Still, I might say to them to look back at the early 90s and emulate that.

 

[OmegaXXII]

What about Omega Ridley you guys? Would he make a great Final Smash/Transformation, kinda of like ZSS?

 

[Oasis_S]

I'm a little sick of villains transforming as part of their final Smash, plus I don't like Meta/Omega Ridley's designs all that much, so I'll always say his Final Smash should involve calling in a bunch of Space Pirates to attack. >8OOO

SPACE PIRATE RAID i guess would be the name of it. It's (more?) in-character too. :3

 

[SmashChu]

I don't mean to be an *** about it, but why is it that you fail to realize his potential? You asked a good question but ask yourself this? What is there to gain from keeping him the way he is? He is already freakin slow and has no uniqueness in Brawl whatsover aside from a minor modification.

If anything there are way more pros than cons to it, and what's wrong with variety?? If anything he would be improved much more significantly if he became unique rather than him staying the same, not only that but Sakurai or Sora would probably further improve with him if we ever got a Smash 5.

The point of all this is that there's alot of room to work with, he ISN'T limited to just some Falcon moves, the Falcon moves would better suit Black Shadow, he's already heavy like Ganon would plus he's from the same franchise, I see no problem with that, and if you think he's good the way he already is, get real!! The community doesn't agree otherwise.

You didn't answer the question. You said a lot but no real answer was there. You said there are pros but mention none. You said it would help him without saying why (had the same Moveset in Melee and tourney guys said he was OK). Just that he has potential.

 

[Hoots]

I agree so hard. I suppose an argument could be made that Other Ridley's more humanoid design might make implementing him a bit easier, but GOURD I hope that's not the case. :/

God he looks worse than I remember. He looks luke a Woodpecker crossed with a DBZ villain. I mean, look at that head. How unmenacing is that? Team Ninja should stick to improving their jiggle physics.