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New Smash Bros for WiiU

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GiantBreadbug

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Oh. Snap.

And I agree. Let the sh*t storm commence.

Or rather, I think "balance" changes from player group to player group. And one sense of balance will never exist that pleases everyone.

But the competitive sees only its idea of balance.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Competitive players cannot legitimately play it the way Sakurai thinks it's balanced.

So no, they're not wrong whatsoever. Considering Sakurai wants us to play it the way we want. We can't be wrong outside of using hacks.

So we have to find a legitimate way to balance it offline, which we've done a pretty good job of it so far.
 
D

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I nearly forgot something.
We were talking about potential WarioWare reps before and it came up to Mona, Ashley, and Jimmy T.

However, there is one pair that was overlooked, especially at the fact they made it as an Assist Trophy; Kat and Ana.
I can totally see them being another pair character like Ice Climbers.
 

Smooth Criminal

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Thing is, competitive players are just wrong.
Lol.

Sure, Sakurai and Co. can give us a game they developed and "balanced." That's fine. However, the competitive community's own development and standard of balanced play can be altered acoordingly thanks to the customization of game types and other parameters.

So, in essence, you're kinda wrong. It's a matter of perspective, and nobody can really go wrong with doing things their own way.

Smooth Criminal
 

Wizzrobe

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Competitve players are the people who are actually knowledgeable and know most everything about the game and also know what is balanced and what is not.

The competitive players actually research deep into the game and know more about the gameplay itself than Sakurai probably does, so you can't really question them.
 

Shorts

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When Oasis talks about competitive gameplay, tell him to shut up. He plays JUST LIKE competitive players.

Only gayer.
 

Smooth Criminal

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Competitve players are the people who are actually knowledgeable and know most everything about the game and also know what is balanced and what is not.

The competitive players actually research deep into the game and know more about the gameplay itself than Sakurai probably does, so you can't really question them.
Bro, competitive players are not sacrosanct. Lol. They're knowledgeable about how the game works and all, but they don't speak for everyone.

Smooth Criminal
 

Linkshot

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They have that online. With lag.

You do realize he only said they are balanced online with items, right? And how are all stages even tourney viable? Mario Bros. is absolutely unusable in tourneys. Like, no, just no.

Sakurai has never said ONCE Brawl is balanced with all items and stages. Ever.

Thus, no, it is not balanced with items. We play tourneys always offline. We cannot balance just by adding items. We have to slowly test them and figure out what MIGHT help balance it. Also, no, items don't balance MK. Remember, he's fast enough to get them, thus, at best, the Tier list would be slightly less problemsome. But would never be balanced. Ever.

Brawl cannot be balanced outside of hacking. Nothing works.
I never said the game was acceptable for tournament play. They are two sides of a coin and cannot combine. You either play a luck-based Smash Bros where you can win with your favourite character, on equal footing with other characters, or you play tourney Smash Bros where all luck is removed and the way to win is to play a character with the best 1v1 3-stock 8-minute tools.

I just prefer the former since a little luck never stops me from having fun or playing to win, and being able to win with your favourite is something I believe to be a key part of Smash Bros.

Now I'm wondering what would be easier to balance: The Stock with no luck metagame, or the Random Wifi metagame.

I don't even remember what I'm arguing for now in the first place. Cool.
 

Wizzrobe

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Sakurai probably doesn't even try to balance the game, after all he only cares about casuals.

Plus, he dislikes the game being played competitively.
 

Oasis_S

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Lol.

Sure, Sakurai and Co. can give us a game they developed and "balanced." That's fine. However, the competitive community's own development and standard of balanced play can be altered acoordingly thanks to the customization of game types and other parameters.

So, in essence, you're kinda wrong. It's a matter of perspective, and nobody can really go wrong with doing things their own way.

Smooth Criminal
There is nothing wrong about wanting goats. ALL your goats.
 

Linkshot

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Sakurai probably doesn't even try to balance the game, after all he only cares about casuals.

Plus, he dislikes the game being played competitively.
All characters having an equal chance of winning is very important to a casual! It's actually less important to a competitive player; less matchups to learn.
 

Katakiri

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7082 PAGES and you're still on characters. Really tho? Like god damn. Someone needs to lock this thread and make a Charcter Thread and a Gameplay Thread. This thread is just the worst thing on Smash Board.
 

Wizzrobe

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All characters having an equal chance of winning is very important to a casual! It's actually less important to a competitive player; less matchups to learn.
umm... lol. Characters having an equal chance is much more important to competitive players lol.

And btw, even if the characters were equal you would still have to learn the matchup
 

Shorts

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7082 PAGES and you're still on characters. Really tho? Like god damn. Someone needs to lock this thread and make a Charcter Thread and a Gameplay Thread. This thread is just the worst thing on Smash Board.
Then go the **** away
 

Wizzrobe

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7082 PAGES and you're still on characters. Really tho? Like god damn. Someone needs to lock this thread and make a Charcter Thread and a Gameplay Thread. This thread is just the worst thing on Smash Board.
This thread most definitely shouldn't be locked. We need a thread to speculate and discuss the new upcoming Smash game.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I never said the game was acceptable for tournament play. They are two sides of a coin and cannot combine. You either play a luck-based Smash Bros where you can win with your favourite character, on equal footing with other characters, or you play tourney Smash Bros where all luck is removed and the way to win is to play a character with the best 1v1 3-stock 8-minute tools.
We competitive players prefer to remove the luck because we want a skill-based game. Not a tech-based game. Skill. BTW, no, you're not talking about equal footing, but the illusion of it. Items does not balance SSB as is. It never has and it never will.

I just prefer the former since a little luck never stops me from having fun or playing to win, and being able to win with your favourite is something I believe to be a key part of Smash Bros.
You're not playing to win if you never switch other characters.(barring Meta Knight) You're arguing it all for casuals. There is nothing wrong with casual gameplay, nor have I ever said there was. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with competitive gameplay. Both are having fun, remember. Isn't that the goal? If people are having fun with zero items and only specific courses... in a game where that is a legitimate and advertised way to play, how are they wrong again?

Also, I never said your way was wrong. Your way is perfectly fine. Just so is yours. That's what I'm trying to say.

Now I'm wondering what would be easier to balance: The Stock with no luck metagame, or the Random Wifi metagame.
The second one cannot be balanced because balancing is only important in competitive gameplay. Friendlies is not about balance, it's simply about having fun. Competitive gameplay attempts to balance it to solely remove the luck factor for skill. Not to remove the fun from it. Too many people honestly think this is the case and they're wrong about that.

I don't even remember what I'm arguing for now in the first place. Cool.
From what I remember, saying competitive players are doing it wrong and that there's a way to balance MK outside of hacks.
 

---

鉄腕パドル!
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I like how much our community is underestimated, it'll just make the coming Pre-SSB4 storm all the more fun.

7082 PAGES and you're still on characters. Really tho? Like god damn. Someone needs to lock this thread and make a Charcter Thread and a Gameplay Thread. This thread is just the worst thing on Smash Board.
Kinda odd that we're being ridiculed for character discussion when the last few pages have been on balance/casual vs competitive. What are you going to do? "shrugs"

Do any of you post anywhere else on the site?
As for this question, just check out our posting and blogging historys, we have nothing to hide.
 

Linkshot

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We competitive players prefer to remove the luck because we want a skill-based game. Not a tech-based game. Skill. BTW, no, you're not talking about equal footing, but the illusion of it. Items does not balance SSB as is. It never has and it never will.



You're not playing to win if you never switch other characters.(barring Meta Knight) You're arguing it all for casuals. There is nothing wrong with casual gameplay, nor have I ever said there was. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with competitive gameplay. Both are having fun, remember. Isn't that the goal? If people are having fun with zero items and only specific courses... in a game where that is a legitimate and advertised way to play, how are they wrong again?

Also, I never said your way was wrong. Your way is perfectly fine. Just so is yours. That's what I'm trying to say.



The second one cannot be balanced because balancing is only important in competitive gameplay. Friendlies is not about balance, it's simply about having fun. Competitive gameplay attempts to balance it to solely remove the luck factor for skill. Not to remove the fun from it. Too many people honestly think this is the case and they're wrong about that.



From what I remember, saying competitive players are doing it wrong and that there's a way to balance MK outside of hacks.
Oh yeah.

Well I played this game competitively for..what, 3 years? I rose to nearly the top of my region. Then we all split up, a tournament happened, I tried to get back into it, and I realized how absolutely boring and imbalanced tourney settings are. I'm tempted to learn Falco and play as disrespectfully as I can just to prove it to people that still try to enjoy the game played like that.

I don't hate competitive Smash Bros, I just can't stand playing competitive Brawl. Give me Minus, Melee, P:M, hell even 64, I'll play them with tourney settings on happily.

I think what I like most about the default settings, though, is that there are more options, more to watch out for, and a lot more skills come in to play. For one, crowd control. Crowd control is worthless in tourney settings because it's 1v1. Item control is worthless outside of, what, Gyros? Stitchface? There's just so much more to the game. So much variety. It's not total chaos, either. Item spawn points are preset. You can learn them. You can avoid them. You can keep your opponents away from them. Item spawns are on a timer, too. Time matches aren't about survival, either, so stalling gets you nowhere.

Smash 4..sure, let's see a little less chaos on items. Maybe an indicator for one second before they spawn so you know whether to run away or go for it. A timer on hitting explosives, instead of instant "gratification".

Either give all stages a hazard or movement, or make special hazards less potent (Port Town cars, looking at you) and movements slower.

Increase the functions of training mode. Set a "DI" option for the AI (angle or toward/away), allow turning on visible hitbubbles, make a "1/60" speed. Make Training Mode basically a debug menu! If you're going to give competitive players the option to turn off items, go the extra mile and give them tools to see what combos work, whether something can be punished on block, and the mechanics of a move!
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Okay. I don't need to reply, but I get where you're coming from now and fully understand, Linkshot.

Also, item spawns points aren't preset in Brawl, just Melee.(possibly 64) So yes, they can appear anywhere and are truly random.

I got no problem with it, and I'd rather play any version of it that is not a hack.(besides a Flash version of it) Mostly because, to me, it's not a legitimate way to play Brawl. It's no longer Brawl the second you use a cheat device for it.

Before you say anything, I do not care if people use cheat devices on theri game. It's not an issue to me. I use them too. I just don't feel they count for competition, because, well... they're cheats. Cheating in competition is bad, mmkay.

@Yani: We'll see. Cloaking Device was broken as hell, though. Around Star level.
 

~automatic

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I remember reading a Melee TAP thread where the dude making the vids said that some characters DI certain ways. Samus at Lv 9 always DIs upwards whereas Falcon always went to a random direction. The programmers do know DI, they just don't feel the need to make it a central part of training and gameplay because not everyone will use it. Mentions in the instruction manual would be cool tho. Z cancelling got a mention in the SSB handbook.

just check out our posting and blogging historys, we have nothing to hide.
I'm a fan of the LH.
OK. I'm only asking because it seems like it's always the same 10 people replying constantly and because there are some relatively new people judging from the join dates. Feellin' curious is all.
 

Linkshot

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Also, item spawns points aren't preset in Brawl, just Melee.(possibly 64) So yes, they can appear anywhere and are truly random.
They're not truly random. Go play on Lavaville (Minus's Norfair) and you'll notice items spawning under the stage..because the stage was moved up and the item spawn points weren't corrected.
 

Johnknight1

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@ Linkshot
That is why you play Smash 64, Melee, Balanced Brawl, or Project M bro. Brawl is a game full of good campers. This can make it get old competitively. Also, the Brawl competitive scene players where you play, it's all chaos and rude people. I know lots of small scale-ish scenes with competitive gaming that have that issue, unless there's a culture change.
At least with default settings, the cast has equal strengths and weaknesses. That's what matters most to me in a game that's supposed to be about picking your favourite and winning.
HAHA NO! :glare: Ice Climbers with items are super broken, and can do ridiculous combos in both Melee and Brawl. Like, zero to death combos or combos almost that bad. Literally, with items, there is LESS balance. Suddenly the mid-heavyweight characters with a lot of power have projectiles and a lot more strength and range, giving them no weaknesses. Meanwhile, the Bowsers of the world are worse, and the super lightweights are worse, too.

Turning items on balance-wise is like if the government discovered trillions in surplus tax money, and gave it all to the rich. Do you really want more issues with balancing=???
All characters having an equal chance of winning is very important to a casual! It's actually less important to a competitive player; less matchups to learn.
Meah, not really. Even at a basic super n00b casual level, Pikachu in Smash 64, Fox/Marth in Melee, and Meta Knight in Brawl are dominant if you spam their best moves.
 

Johnknight1

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@ automatic
I saw a combo video on All is Brawl a few months after Brawl came out where the entire Meta Knight combo video was a dude using Up B. Every combo involved an Up B. No joke.
[COLLAPSE="Click here to be creeped the heck out"]
[/COLLAPSE]
I fricked lol'd! :joyful:
Do any of you post anywhere else on the site?
Occasionally I post in the Melee character boards, in some non-smash topics, and on the pages of tournaments I go to. I talk Melee stuff a lot on faecbook.
7082 PAGES and you're still on characters. Really tho? Like god damn. Someone needs to lock this thread and make a Charcter Thread and a Gameplay Thread. This thread is just the worst thing on Smash Board.
Somebody's got their panties in a knot. :awesome: We were discussing gameplay and story mode mostly for the last 20 pages bro. There's a thing called reading more than 1 post. :lol:
 

Linkshot

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HAHA NO! :glare: Ice Climbers with items are super broken, and can do ridiculous combos in both Melee and Brawl. Like, zero to death combos or combos almost that bad. Literally, with items, there is LESS balance. Suddenly the mid-heavyweight characters with a lot of power have projectiles and a lot more strength and range, giving them no weaknesses. Meanwhile, the Bowsers of the world are worse, and the super lightweights are worse, too.
If they can't 0-death 3 opponents at once, then they'll get punished for trying. Remember, default aka "wifi" settings are 4-for-alls.
 

Johnknight1

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^ All you need to know is how to desynch Nana (not that hard) in Melee and Brawl to own with items. Also, wifi is awful. :facepalm: Smash 64 is awesome online-if you don't desynch. :shades:
Have you even played or heard of KOF XIII?
That is easily the most balanced Fighting Game ever. Besides items easily turn the tides of a match, so the whole party game element is still there.
Yeah, but a lot of King of Fighter fans thought it was somewhat dumbed down compared to previous titles. Or at least that is what I've heard from my friends who play KOF. :bee:
That said, all I care about is gameplay as well. Just give me something that isn't so damn floaty and get rid of tripping. I'll be happy with that.
Smooth Criminal
I can handle floaty (see: Smash 64), but not floaty physics that promote stale defensive tactics. If we had more offense for most of the cast, we wouldn't complain about this. :laugh:
 

Johnknight1

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For story mode, it's not that freaking hard. Make it where you play as a character and you only get their part of the story with obvious overlapping with other story lines.
My post about a dozen pages back had a written star of a story for about 10 characters that I wrote it about 15 minutes. It's not that fricken hard to make. Just have everybody do their thing, and gradually have it all wrap together into an epic ending where all kinds of stuff goes down. Perhaps use Mass Effect 2 (not 3!) as an example of how to wrap up an epic event.
And I don't care about "Smash Canon". The whole idea is stupid. Can I just get something where an omnicidal dimension traveler hunts down characters and turns them into trophies for his collection?
I know, right=??? I just want to kick some butt as say (off the top of my head) Diddy Kong, Wario, Sonic, and Toon Link in the same party. Seriously, just mix and mash teams in the story. There are so many teams that would be awesome, so much untapped potential. Mario-Sonic anyone=??? A good Sonic-Mario team/story alone is worth my money! :love:
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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It seems that the Kami trio's alternate forms are known as the "Sacred Beast" forms. Anyway, maybe on some rare occasions, if either Tornadus, Thundurus, or Landorus gets released from a Poke Ball, they'll take on their Sacred Beast form, instead of their basic Incarnation form.
 

Johnknight1

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I HATE Rumble Falls.
Rumble Falls in Project M is amazing. It's basically a Battlefield layout (two platforms on the side), but with a lot more room, and pretty much the same bottom "main" platform from Rumble Falls. Oh, and the stage doesn't move. It's pretty fun to play, especially teams and free for all's! :cool: It actually allows me to listen to the great music on the stage! :awesome:

Balanced Brawl's version of Rumble Falls ain't bad either. It still is a moving stage, but it moves slowly at a constant basis. The same goes for Mushroomy Kingdom (moving slowly) in Balanced Brawl. 1-1 of Mushroomy Kingdom is great in Balanced Brawl. It's pretty much the Rainbow Cruise of heavy/ground characters. 1-2 is okay, but it still fills cramped.
 
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