New Smash Bros for WiiU

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

@HyperFalcon
CQC = Close Quarters Combat
I dunno, I'm not here to persuade you but the fact that he uses a rocket launcher like a bat is awesome to me, along with him shooting with it.
Anyway, I didn't say Zero was unique because he uses a sword, just that he fits the fighter character role more than Megaman, a shooter.

Ah. I get what you mean. Especially in QCQ. As I said, badass is a matter of opinion.

 

[Johnknight1]

I knew of the last thing. I posted about it earlier. And I think it is. The more skill you have, the more you can do something consistently. Practice makes perfect. Being perfect means having the actual skill to perform correctly. And the problem is, if it's being done automatically, there is absolutely no skill in it whatsoever. Choosing the best options is skillful. "Everybody does it" doesn't make it less skillful. It just makes it overused or a smart option.

I'd call it a skill, because you're not going to get far without it. On both 64 and Melee, I never fail to use this if possible. Now, unless I'm wrong, it benefits laggier characters more than faster ones. The thing about this is that it makes them more viable, which is balance. Removing how it benefits the slower characters, and making it automatic, means the chances it benefits the weaker characters is less in general. I need to look it up, but I think it benefits everyone equally.



Right. My key point is that it was too defensive, and harder to punish. Two air dodges was a problem. And you didn't go into a prat fall with them. The thing that made the Air Dodge great in Melee is that you couldn't whip it out at any time outside of Wavedashing, because you'd get punished for it easily. It's too hard to punish mistakes in Brawl compared to the first two games. And I completely agree. I want a game where both the attacker and defender are on equal ground as i they were were playing the same character. Attack = Defense overall. And so on.

I think L-Cancelling benefits slower characters more because it gives them more viable moves. Most "fast" characters who aren't totally awful already have a crap ton of move priority most of the time.

As for making it automatic, I just think it would be one less thing to think about. I never fail (unless I'm using a character that isn't my main or a secondary character I use), but I think it would be one less thing to think about (even if you automatically do it). Heck, Sakurai probably knowingly created in in smash 64 (and probably Melee too), so why not just allow everyone to use it.

You also never know how any future smash game will turn out in terms of techniques, exploits, glitches, and whatnot. There might just be another technique that requires you to push L or R in similar situations. Imagine having to memorize when "X" technique will happen and when you have to L-cancel.

I think defensive players should be rewarded with smart play, not camping or running away from foes and planking like a wuss. "Mind gaming" people, timing out foes, properly spacing, waiting for the right moment to attack... all of these should be embraced and should totally be viable options.

I also think that the multiple air dodge system needs to have more vulnerability frames between each air dodge. That way when you time out a foe when trying to recover on the stage with a perfect air dodge, you aren't punished by getting hit because you are totally vulnerable despite dodging perfectly. I think that could make for more dramatic matches, more dramatic recovery-based game play (specifically off the stage), and really some incredible offense vs. defense match ups, especially if the future smash bros games' off the map offense is more viable (and there are a lot less invincibility frames when you grab the edges).

Too many Brawl recoveries were automatic. I like that the recoveries for most characters improved from Melee (I think most characters should recovery from near anything, and only a select few lightweights or flight-based characters should recovery easily), but you simply had to either chase the foe off the stage, risk dying with a spike, or just force the opponent to keep trying and re-trying to recover.

Obviously the spikes didn't have much knock back for many moves to really "spike," there weren't that many great aerial kill moves available for many characters without being as predictable as a Falcon Punch, and the edges had way too many invincibility frames. Yet, overall the off the stage/edge game additions from Brawl (stool hopping should spike harder!), combined with such ideas and what worked with Melee (and smash 64) could combine into some consistently incredible off the stage and edge game play that could be unpredictable, yet it would still be all about skill, timing, and awareness.

Plus I always felt the edge aerial recovery game needs to be more of a focus, because I love the offensive and defensive clashes out there. Watching Mew2King in those kind of situations in either Melee or Brawl really highlights why I love it so much, along with Armada's defense of the stage with his pinpoint accuracy with turnips.

 

[Thino]

No, I meant to be able to come out of an aerial into a ground attack like in Melee when you L-cancel (except having it happen automatically) requires more intelligent defense, and really can cause more combos and open up the offense. Offense is probably 95% of a casual player's strategy, and minimal aerial attack to land lag can create offense, thus casual players would enjoy it more.

The attacker would more easily break shields of the defender waiting for you to land if done repetitively (and create further attacks), the attacker could quickly attack to create distance between themselves and the defender on the ground with the attack pushing the defender back if they shield, or the attacker could prevent a reaction and lead themselves right into a grab on the defender if they shield.

This also could prevent campy defense and stalling competitively, and really could create a better offense and defensive balance in smash, and would require better spacing, shielding, and defensive reactions to aerial attacks followed by a character landing on the ground.

Again, as long as something contributes to offense and defense remained somewhat balanced (yin and yang), and any good offense beats good defense for both casual and competitive players, I think that smash bros will continue to move in the right direction for the future.

I agree with everything you said , but competitively only.

Casually, I don't see the point of balancing between offensive options and defensive options

 

[Oasis_S]

Star who?

That imaginary person that you used to "quote" from time to time...

Star never existed!

Spoiler

Twilight Zone

It's late.

Turn off the Sci-Fi channel.

Go to bed.

Watching such things may give you delusions of Geno having a chance for Smash. WE ALL KNOW THAT IS COMPLETE FICTION OF COURSE.

 

[Johnknight1]

I agree with everything you said , but competitively only.

Casually, I don't see the point of balancing between offensive options and defensive options

Casually it creates more offense. Casuals love offense. I know because even though I play competitive, all of us competitive players still like to play casual, whether with our made up mini game madness (see: the Bowser challenge in Melee, various Brawl mini-games, or anything from Canada!) or by choosing stupid characters and playing them stupidly.

And trust me, when you play casually, all you want to do is beat your opponent's face in. I think this little addition of L-cancelling from smash 64 and Melee (but instead being automatic) allows for more attacks quickly, and some easy casual combos, thus creating more offensive opportunities and better offensive opportunities.

Tell me, what Ike wouldn't love following a forward air with the A-A-A jab combo=??? Do that twice to an opponent and you are one smash attack away from a kill!

As for balancing offense, for casuals all it would prevent is noobish camping and stalling. Instead, unless they shield perfectly and run, they will lose the person running away (for now I'll call them the defender) will lose the match up. That's good for everybody, minus the campers. But really, campers don't matter.

@ Oasis
I could have sworn there was only 1 stage from Mach Rider. Well, all you do is race through terrain and whatnot, so all you need to do is make a race track, really.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think L-Cancelling benefits slower characters more because it gives them more viable moves. Most "fast" characters who aren't totally awful already have a crap ton of move priority most of the time.

As for making it automatic, I just think it would be one less thing to think about. I never fail (unless I'm using a character that isn't my main or a secondary character I use), but I think it would be one less thing to think about (even if you automatically do it). Heck, Sakurai probably knowingly created in in smash 64 (and probably Melee too), so why not just allow everyone to use it.

You also never know how any future smash game will turn out in terms of techniques, exploits, glitches, and whatnot. There might just be another technique that requires you to push L or R in similar situations. Imagine having to memorize when "X" technique will happen and when you have to L-cancel.

I think defensive players should be rewarded with smart play, not camping or running away from foes and planking like a wuss. "Mind gaming" people, timing out foes, properly spacing, waiting for the right moment to attack... all of these should be embraced and should totally be viable options.

I also think that the multiple air dodge system needs to have more vulnerability frames between each air dodge. That way when you time out a foe when trying to recover on the stage with a perfect air dodge, you aren't punished by getting hit because you are totally vulnerable despite dodging perfectly. I think that could make for more dramatic matches, more dramatic recovery-based game play (specifically off the stage), and really some incredible offense vs. defense match ups, especially if the future smash bros games' off the map offense is more viable (and there are a lot less invincibility frames when you grab the edges).

Too many Brawl recoveries were automatic. I like that the recoveries for most characters improved from Melee (I think most characters should recovery from near anything, and only a select few lightweights or flight-based characters should recovery easily), but you simply had to either chase the foe off the stage, risk dying with a spike, or just force the opponent to keep trying and re-trying to recover.

Obviously the spikes didn't have much knock back for many moves to really "spike," there weren't that many great aerial kill moves available for many characters without being as predictable as a Falcon Punch, and the edges had way too many invincibility frames. Yet, overall the off the stage/edge game additions from Brawl (stool hopping should spike harder!), combined with such ideas and what worked with Melee (and smash 64) could combine into some consistently incredible off the stage and edge game play that could be unpredictable, yet it would still be all about skill, timing, and awareness.

Plus I always felt the edge aerial recovery game needs to be more of a focus, because I love the offensive and defensive clashes out there. Watching Mew2King in those kind of situations in either Melee or Brawl really highlights why I love it so much, along with Armada's defense of the stage with his pinpoint accuracy with turnips.

Well, if the automatic actually makes it so the slower characters benefit more, then it's fine. The thing is, I don't find L-Cancel even hard to do so whatsoever. I don't see how having it is a bad thing. But anyway.

As for the aerial game, I admit I don't use it that much. But I do think a better air dodge would be interesting, especially if the spikes were easier again.

And overall agreed. I like the mind games. Risks and rewards are good too.

 

[Johnknight1]

Well, if the automatic actually makes it so the slower characters benefit more, then it's fine. The thing is, I don't find L-Cancel even hard to do so whatsoever. I don't see how having it is a bad thing. But anyway.

As for the aerial game, I admit I don't use it that much. But I do think a better air dodge would be interesting, especially if the spikes were easier again.

And overall agreed. I like the mind games. Risks and rewards are good too.

The automatic L-cancelling isn't that big of a deal to me. I just think casuals would like to attack quicker out of the air to the land, and quite frankly I want to open the door to Sakurai for any new L or R-based techniques in similar situations to be "open" in the rare case that it may actually happen.

I think my suggested changes could make aerial offense better. I main Toon Link, and I know how little aerial attacks work because Toon Link is mostly aerial and range-based reliant, (and I hate relying on long-range attacks via camping! I would rather lose!) and aerials are easy to counter. Make 'em knock off more of the shield, make 'em have the option of follow up grabs or quick hits, and you got yourself more priority, and you can realistically use all your offensive moves that don't totally suck.

Also, could you imagine a good multiple air dodge system with a great recovering player with a Meta Knight who can air dodge, perfectly time jumps, and glide well, versus someone as good as Armada with Peach's turnips and Mew2King's off the stage aggression=???

I would pay money to see that. That would allow the off the stage game play to become more a focus point. It could also allow it to often quickly shift the momentum of the game, which I think is a good thing. Anyone not caring about a match because they "know" someone will win with a 3 to 1 stock lead like many do in Brawl only need to wait for a few good combos and good off the stage play in for a good two spikes, and you got yourself an epic ending ahead. Tell me, who doesn't want to see those kinds of matches, competitive or casual=??? (or as I like to call it, Taj at Genesis 2)

 

[y.toonlink]

@John
Sorry bro it's late over here and I don't wanna read too much lol
But from skimming: L-Canceling benefits slower characters yes, but in order to balance out the advantage faster characters have over sharing the cancel, slower could have stronger attacks?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The automatic L-cancelling isn't that big of a deal to me. I just think casuals would like to attack quicker out of the air to the land, and quite frankly I want to open the door to Sakurai for any new L or R-based techniques in similar situations to be "open" in the rare case that it may actually happen.

I think my suggested changes could make aerial offense better. I main Toon Link, and I know how little aerial attacks work because Toon Link is mostly aerial and range-based reliant, (and I hate relying on long-range attacks via camping! I would rather lose!) and aerials are easy to counter. Make 'em knock off more of the shield, make 'em have the option of follow up grabs or quick hits, and you got yourself more priority, and you can realistically use all your offensive moves that don't totally suck.

Also, could you imagine a good multiple air dodge system with a great recovering player with a Meta Knight who can air dodge, perfectly time jumps, and glide well, versus someone as good as Armada with Peach's turnips and Mew2King's off the stage aggression=???

I would pay money to see that. That would allow the off the stage game play to become more a focus point. It could also allow it to often quickly shift the momentum of the game, which I think is a good thing. Anyone not caring about a match because they "know" someone will win with a 3 to 1 stock lead like many do in Brawl only need to wait for a few good combos and good off the stage play in for a good two spikes, and you got yourself an epic ending ahead. Tell me, who doesn't want to see those kinds of matches, competitive or casual=??? (or as I like to call it, Taj at Genesis 2)

Actually, I'm mainly a casual player. I don't play competitively, and I always prefer having options. I like those techniques because they're a challenge in learning them, and using them as well. The more the merrier, I say. And to be fair, not everybody like those kinds of matches. Different tastes and all.

Also... not all casuals are "attack attack attack", etc. Some like strategy and advanced techs as well. Having fun depends the person, honestly.

But anyway, I'm heading off to bed.

 

[OmegaXXII]

Wow, that Excite from Croc looks amazing indeed.

 

[Thino]

Casually it creates more offense. Casuals love offense. I know because even though I play competitive, all of us competitive players still like to play casual, whether with our made up mini game madness (see: the Bowser challenge in Melee, various Brawl mini-games, or anything from Canada!) or by choosing stupid characters and playing them stupidly.

And trust me, when you play casually, all you want to do is beat your opponent's face in. I think this little addition of L-cancelling from smash 64 and Melee (but instead being automatic) allows for more attacks quickly, and some easy casual combos, thus creating more offensive opportunities and better offensive opportunities.

Tell me, what Ike wouldn't love following a forward air with the A-A-A jab combo=??? Do that twice to an opponent and you are one smash attack away from a kill!

As for balancing offense, for casuals all it would prevent is noobish camping and stalling. Instead, unless they shield perfectly and run, they will lose the person running away (for now I'll call them the defender) will lose the match up. That's good for everybody, minus the campers. But really, campers don't matter.

I think we should keep our balancing expectations to competitive level.

Casual play is too much of a broad subject, because it can be played in so many ways, and between so many different kind of players.

I personally struggled months before teaching my friends how to shield in Melee and that tilts and smash attacks are better than specials over and over.

While I agree with the fact that in casual play, players care mainly about offense , I really doubt it often reaches the level to be having less fun out of not being able to do much against an opponent's aerials , as much as they want to hit him .

My friends would just attempt to Falcon Punch me regardless of if I come from the air, with an aerial etc.. and would still have a blast while playing and laugh it off after the match

 

[OmegaXXII]

^^Yeah, John did bring up a good point, yes!!

 

[---]

Agreed.

Many people I know just pick Kirby and spam Stone or Ike and spam AAA, this of course is also true for people I meet online.

Casuel play is all about the offense.

 

[Berserker.]

Agreed.

Many people I know just pick Kirby and spam Stone or Ike and spam AAA, this of course is also true for people I meet online.

Casuel play is all about the offense.

This reminds me....

Not that I care but....

Since Meta Knight is banned, the only character I need to worry about is Wario. (Does not worry against Olimar and Dedede)

Phoenix Wright can hit 40 combos

Hmmmm........

Still common especially with Dante and Wesker.....

................................................................................................

gjkbd;kg;sgklsdnvsdnbvldj;dl;vdlvdvl;sd;fd;

 

[Thino]

Whenever a Dante starts a combo on me online on MvC3 , I drop the controller and go make myself a sandwich

when I come back he's not done yet

 

[ChronoBound]

@ChronoBound: You said yourself that almost every character the general public considers "likely" has a good chance of missing out. Aside from Mega Man, is there anyone else you consider to be "likely" (AKA one that you consider unlikely to not make the roster) as of right now?

Besides Mega Man, the only other characters that I think are definitely going to show up are a Kid Icarus newcomer (Palutena or Medusa) and a Pokemon newcomer (of which there are many candidates and possibilities depending on when Smash 4 begins development and how long it spends in development).

I think a F-Zero newcomer would have also been a sure bet if we had gotten a new F-Zero title, however, seeing as how there has not been a new title since 2004, I think Sakurai will pass over the series.

Also, I think Ridley and Little Mac will be overlooked unless their Western popularity is taken into consideration.

The disappearance of K. Rool and Dixie Kong since 2008 will also possibly make them overlooked as well.

 

[Berserker.]

Whenever a Dante starts a combo on me online on MvC3 , I drop the controller and go make myself a sandwich

when I come back he's not done yet

I know right?

No seriously. It happened once to me. The guy kept doing combos then he used X factor so....Yeah. That was like 30 seconds or less.

 

[Metal Overlord]

The disappearance of K. Rool and Dixie Kong since 2008 will also possibly make them overlooked as well.

I honestly don't see that as a very daunting factor at all.

 

[Deleted member]

My feeling have been shifting back between Zoroark being playable and Victini being playable. I know why, but its making me think that perhaps two 5th gen Pokemons are out of the question for SSB4, so while I do think one of them is getting in, it makes me think they aren't as likely as we think. Nevertheless, it is still a close race.

@Shortiecanbrawl: Lets say that Mario gets five slots but no newcomers get in. Instead, Yoshi is clump inside the Mario series and then you get to choose two newcomers for Mario sub-series (Donkey Kong and/or Wario).

How would you react to this?

Personally I think it is wrong wanting a third party character over any first or second character. That is just me and everyone is entitled to their choices.

I don't think there's anything wrong with having your most wanted character being third-party (like for me, Mega Man is one of my very most wanted newcomers)

Besides Mega Man, the only other characters that I think are definitely going to show up are a Kid Icarus newcomer (Palutena and/or Medusa) and a Pokemon newcomer (of which there are many candidates and possibilities depending on when Smash 4 begins development and how long it spends in development).

Fix that for ya (see bolded).

I also agree that Pokemon characters's chances are dependent on how long the game takes to make. It is possible they could do a 6th gen Pokemon like advertisement for the 6th gen games like they did with Roy for Fire Emblem in Melee if development is long enough.

I think a F-Zero newcomer would have also been a sure bet if we had gotten a new F-Zero title, however, seeing as how there has not been a new title since 2004, I think Sakurai will pass over the series.

Let's see if the game is announced at E3 2012 or not, but as of right now, things aren't looking good for Samurai Goroh or Black Shadow.

Also, I think Ridley and Little Mac will be overlooked unless their Western popularity is taken into consideration.

--- said that Sakurai looks at the West for some ideas. If that is true, I think that will give us at least Ridley and Little Mac's inclusion. Even with not being popular in Japan, I think they are the most likely newcomers.

 

[Aurane]

Young Link

Weight: LightWeight
Speed: Fast

(A) Combo:
He jabs, then swings upwards, then downwards.

(A) Normal:

(A)>: He stabs his sword foward.
(A)^: He swings his sword like an arch, covering both sides of home.
(A)v: He kicks the opponent's legs.

(A) Smash:
(A)>: Charges, then he swings his sword, then if (A) is pressed again, he swings opposite of what swing he did. Right to left.
(A)^: Charges, then he swings his sword upwards in an arch, but three times. The third time, he swings downwards, hitting in eyesight and above him.
(A)v: Charges, then he spins, crouched, with sword open. Not like (B)^, because it is lower in attack range.

Taunt:
^: He brings out a bottle of Lon Lon Milk, drinks some, then wipes his mouth. Just like in Melee.
>: He looks above, then looks slowly to the right, then smiles.
v: He stretches his legs, then stretches his arms and yawns.

(B) moveset:
(B): Slingshot:
He brings out his Slingshot, charges as soon as it comes out, then can fire whenever. It always goes straight foward, plus it can be moved if the opponent goes behind you. Compare to Pit's (B) move.
(B)>: Boomerang:
He throws his Boomerang, but this works differently. When thrown, it will target a nearby opponent, the goes back to Y. Link, unless it goes past him. The targeting works like this. If you press (B)> again after shooting it, it'll target the nearest opponent. In otherwords, you must press (B)> twice. If you don't it'll be just like Link's (B)>.
(B)v: Sheild Swap:
As we know from OoT, Y.Link can't use his Hyrule shield, because of his stregnth back then. However, he found that leaving it on his back, then ducking for cover will protect him too. In this move, Y.Link can change to this shield, and he'll duck automatically. If an opponent attacks him from eyesight or above, then won't take damage, but will be knockbacked 3 character spaces. When the (B) button is let go, Y.Link will go back to using his Deku Shield.
(B)^: Roc's Cape
Found in The Minish Cap, Young Link is able to use this item to fly for a little while. But can be canceled with shield or an attack move. When done flying, he can still attack and defend himself. A mix of Sonic and Pit's (B)^.

FS: Triforce'd (dunno what to call it)
Young Link's body is surrounded by the triforce, then he gets all of his HP healed, his power upgraded, and his defenses upgraded. Instead of the Koriki Sword, he gets the Razor Sword, via Power. Defenses is being able to use the Mirror Shield, which deflects projectiles with the L/R buttons. In stanima matches, his HP is healed by 50, unless he can't gain that much, but will full heal.

So, I think this is classified as different. Young Link needs his return. OoT 3DS was awesome!

 

[---]

--- said that Sakurai looks at the West for some ideas. If that is true, I think that will give us at least Ridley and Little Mac's inclusion. Even with not being popular in Japan, I think they are the most likely newcomers.

So I'm not questioned later on where I found out this information, this is where I found it:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=72642

#171-180: Now that Smash is world-renowned, they don't want to include characters only popular in Japan. However, due to the success of the Fire Emblem characters, they still may.

#171-180: In this update, Sakurai basically just says that since Smash Bros is popular throughout the world, he can't just use characters that are only popular in Japan. But then he brings up that it worked for the Fire Emblem characters. Once, a black man (yes, he said that) thanked Sakurai for creating Roy just for him.

Another typically cryptic response doesn't necessarily tell us if he will/won't include obscure Japanese characters, but given the general tone of his response, I'm leaning heavily towards no.

 

[Aurane]

I now have set in stone some characters that I'll support from here on. Here they are:
Victini
Young Link
Lucario
Mewtwo
Amaterasu
Custom Character creator (character maker option, I also support).
Besides Amaterasu, I really think the others have a huge chance. Oh, Mr. Sakurai, please bring them back! (Victini for newcomer). I'm adding Lucario, Mewtwo, and Young Link to the "Other Support" in my Facebook VictoriousVictini.

 

[SmashChu]

I think we should keep our balancing expectations to competitive level.

Casual play is too much of a broad subject, because it can be played in so many ways, and between so many different kind of players.

Hmmm, how about no.

Sakurai doesn't balance it for the competitive aspect anyway.

Besides Mega Man, the only other characters that I think are definitely going to show up are a Kid Icarus newcomer (Palutena or Medusa) and a Pokemon newcomer (of which there are many candidates and possibilities depending on when Smash 4 begins development and how long it spends in development).

I think a F-Zero newcomer would have also been a sure bet if we had gotten a new F-Zero title, however, seeing as how there has not been a new title since 2004, I think Sakurai will pass over the series.

Also, I think Ridley and Little Mac will be overlooked unless their Western popularity is taken into consideration.

The disappearance of K. Rool and Dixie Kong since 2008 will also possibly make them overlooked as well.

You know Sakurai did add Kid Icarus after 15-20 years right? I think he wouldn't be against adding Dixie and K. Rool who have been cold for a lot less time and F-Zero which has only been quite for 7 years tops.

Also, even Japanese players want more F-Zero and Metroid characters. And Little Mac has a good shot since he's had a game in 2009. Sakurai doesn't just look at Japan and ignore the rest of the world. He adds characters everyone likes. Little Mac had a new game and is demanded over here. He will probably happen.

 

[Starphoenix]

Agreed. I think, as I have said before, people honestly feel Sakurai is stupid. People talk as though he is not trying to balance the game, like he is clueless on how to build a game. I do not think any developer in their right mind sets out to put together a poor game, certainly one with as high of status as Super Smash Bros.

 

[Deleted member]

@SmashChu: Pit was a retro character at the time of his reveal in Brawl. King K. Rool, Dixie Kong, and F-zero. That said, I don't think relevancy will be a major docking point for King K. Rool and Dixie Kong since they appeared in Super Sluggers, although F-zero is much worse off in this regards.

 

[Starphoenix]

The point that Smashchu was trying to make is that Sakurai does not look at characters in terms of age or last appearance.

Sakurai does not break characters into these genres we place upon them. "Oh, well they are not quite retro so we should not include them".

 

[Shorts]

@SmashChu: Pit was a retro character at the time of his reveal in Brawl. King K. Rool, Dixie Kong, and F-zero. That said, I don't think relevancy will be a major docking point for King K. Rool and Dixie Kong since they appeared in Super Sluggers, although F-zero is much worse off in this regards.

No, it's not a major docking point because Dixie and K. Rool are major characters in one of Nintendo's best selling series. 2008 was three years ago, not thirty. F-Zero didn't have a game since 2004, but that's still IMO not even that big of a deal, especially now, with the lak of characters to choose from, and with Sakurai continuously recognizing Samurai Goroh within Smash. (He was in the Melee opening, and an AT in Brawl)

Wait, who's trying to say retro characters shouldn't be included? I just got here, and am too lazy to look back at past pages.

No one, he's talking about characters who are "In betweens" in terms of not being a retro.... but not being exactly the most recent characters. Like GC game characters.

 

[Claire Diviner]

The point that Smashchu was trying to make is that Sakurai does not look at characters in terms of age or last appearance.

Sakurai does not break characters into these genres we place upon them. "Oh, well they are not quite retro so we should not include them".

Wait, who's trying to say retro characters shouldn't be included? I just got here, and am too lazy to look back at past pages.

The way I see it, any character that is created by Nintendo is fair game. Hell, Olimar isn't even retro, and he made it into Brawl. So if that isn't an indication that any character is fair game, then I don't know what is.

 

[Starphoenix]

Wait, who's trying to say retro characters shouldn't be included? I just got here, and am too lazy to look back at past pages.

The way I see it, any character that is created by Nintendo is fair game. Hell, Olimar isn't even retro, and he made it into Brawl. So if that isn't an indication that any character is fair game, then I don't know what is.

You really should read back before replying to a post that was in response to several others. It will give you the proper context of what I am discussing.

I am not saying retro characters should not be included. What I am saying is that characters are not split into genres like many try to do. Above that, Sakurai does not see characters in that way. This is why we can have such a diverse cast of characters ranging from Mr. Gama and Watch to Captain Olimar.

 

[Johnknight1]

Agreed. I think, as I have said before, people honestly feel Sakurai is stupid. People talk as though he is not trying to balance the game, like he is clueless on how to build a game. I do not think any developer in their right mind sets out to put together a poor game, certainly one with as high of status as Super Smash Bros.

Sakurai is a genius in nearly every respect. While he might not be a competitive genius, he definitely does add things to balance out the game for everyone, and does add specific mechanics (I'm pretty sure he added L-cancelling in smash 64 and Melee).

You know Sakurai did add Kid Icarus after 15-20 years right? I think he wouldn't be against adding Dixie and K. Rool who have been cold for a lot less time and F-Zero which has only been quite for 7 years tops.

Also, even Japanese players want more F-Zero and Metroid characters. And Little Mac has a good shot since he's had a game in 2009. Sakurai doesn't just look at Japan and ignore the rest of the world. He adds characters everyone likes. Little Mac had a new game and is demanded over here. He will probably happen.

Exactly. Plus even Japanese smashers have to like the originality Dixie and K. Rool (assuming they know his "brothers" are still him), and they probably want Ridley (although they probably view him as retro).

Donkey Kong is being revived, so there's no reason it shouldn't have as many or more representatives than Star Fox, which has had 3 characters despite having no real noticeable titles to the public. On top of that, Donkey Kong is up there right behind Pokémon, Mario, and The Legend of Zelda as one of the biggest Nintendo franchises represented in smash, by far.

Plus Japan has probably "warmed up to them" in all those Mario spin-offs and Jungle Beat.

@John
Sorry bro it's late over here and I don't wanna read too much lol
But from skimming: L-Canceling benefits slower characters yes, but in order to balance out the advantage faster characters have over sharing the cancel, slower could have stronger attacks?

Slower characters like Ike already have strong attacks.

If Ike could forward aerial into his A-A-A jab, he could wrack up a ton of damage. Do this two or three times, then you're just a smash attack or another "big hit" away from a kill.

If characters aerial attacks lead into land attacks in Brawl like they did in Melee, Ike could legitimately be a threat with players with great timing, spacing, and defense in close-range situations.

Plus on top of that, a lot of big characters are on the bottom of the tier list in any smash bros. game. Whether Donkey Kong in smash 64, Bowser in Melee, or Bowser and Ganondorf in Brawl.

 

[Claire Diviner]

You really should read back before replying to a post that was in response to several others. It will give you the proper context of what I am discussing.

I am not saying retro characters should not be included. What I am saying is that characters are not split into genres like many try to do. Above that, Sakurai does not see characters in that way. This is why we can have such a diverse cast of characters ranging from Mr. Gama and Watch to Captain Olimar.

Ahhh, I gotcha. I always thought he chose characters based on what he thinks the people will either like to see in Smash, or to give people that "omg, wtf" reaction. I mean, I'll admit, I didn't see R.O.B. or Olimar coming. Also, NO ONE saw G&W coming for Melee.

 

[Starphoenix]

Ahhh, I gotcha. I always thought he chose characters based on what he thinks the people will either like to see in Smash, or to give people that "omg, wtf" reaction. I mean, I'll admit, I didn't see R.O.B. or Olimar coming. Also, NO ONE saw G&W coming for Melee.

He does do that, I'm not saying otherwise.

 

[Shorts]

The Ice Climbers.....where did he pull them from? In the Melee poll, they tied for last place with Balloon fighter in the "Other" catagory. I mean, they aren't a major peice of Nintendo history....right?

R.O.B and G&W, Nintendo history majors. (Some people predeicted R.O.B btw)

Pit, most requested retro ever. (A lot of rumors as well)

BUT ICE CLIMBERS? Was he looking for a unique character idea within Sukapon, Balloon Fighter, and Ice Climbers, and then just ended up picking IC's?

 

[Claire Diviner]

He does do that, I'm not saying otherwise.

I didn't say you said otherwise. I was merely repeating your point.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The Ice Climbers.....where did he pull them from? In the Melee poll, they tied for last place with Balloon fighter in the "Other" catagory. I mean, they aren't a major peice of Nintendo history....right?

R.O.B and G&W, Nintendo history majors. (Some people predeicted R.O.B btw)

Pit, most requested retro ever. (A lot of rumors as well)

BUT ICE CLIMBERS? Was he looking for a unique character idea within Sukapon, Balloon Fighter, and Ice Climbers, and then just ended up picking IC's?

IC's had the easiest moveset potential due to ice attacks, bungees cords, and hammers. Balloon Fighter... uh, what, a pea shooter? I can't remember much about Sukapon.

But while they've only had one game, they were a perfectly reasonable retro character. Not as notable as others, but a double character alone was an interesting style. I like the choice due to them being very unique compared to typical weapon users.

Also, one could argue R.O.B. was unimportant video game-wise as well. It's how he saved Nintendo (and video games as a whole) outside of video games that made him special. His few appearances IN the video game weren't that important. Also, Ice Climbers were main characters.

Here's hoping for a new Ice Climbers game.

 

[Starphoenix]

For those that don't mind spoilers Nintendo posted Skywards Sword's intro.

http://youtu.be/ox9pcs-_biw

That music... It is the most beautiful thing I think I have ever heard... On the Wii at least... ;_;

 

[Shorts]

For those that don't mind spoilers Nintendo posted Skywards Sword's intro.

http://youtu.be/ox9pcs-_biw

That music... It is the most beautiful thing I think I have ever heard... On the Wii at least... ;_;

Everyone, keep the spoilers hidden, I will be seriously upset if you ruin MY FIRST Legend of Zelda game I BUY for me.

I know someone is going to **** it up for me though.

IC's had the easiest moveset potential due to ice attacks, bungees cords, and hammers. Balloon Fighter... uh, what, a pea shooter? I can't remember much about Sukaon.

I don't see how you could talk up the Ice Climbers, but downplay Balloon Fighter? Anyways, I was just asking why people thought he picked them.

Also, idc how lame R.O.B was in game, what he did for Nintendo is reason enough for him to get in, you know.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I don't see how you could talk up the Ice Climbers, but downplay Balloon Fighter? Anyways, I was just asking why people thought he picked them.

Also, idc how lame R.O.B was in game, what he did for Nintendo is reason enough for him to get in, you know.

Show me a Sukapon moveset, then. Having a weapon, arms, and legs naturally make it easier to make a moveset for.

And what can Balloon Fighter do? What's his potential?

My point was that R.O.B. wasn't important to Nintendo by being in a game. Hence why those random retro characters are just as chooseable. But the biggest thing is how easy a moveset can be made for them.

 

[Starphoenix]

Everyone, keep the spoilers hidden, I will be seriously upset if you ruin MY FIRST Legend of Zelda game I BUY for me.

I know someone is going to **** it up for me though.

Well this is as far as I'm going to go with the spoilers. Once Kirby comes out in a couple of weeks I'm going to be focused on that.

But dat intro music...

 

[Bl@ckChris]

.....lol.