*NEW* matchup discussion week #2: Snake!

[M@v]

You can theory craft all you want, but fact it bdacus is still really hard to do consistently. Even then you can see it coming. Normal dacus is even easier to predict. There's a reason you never see Larry using dacus or boost pivot grabs much. They are fine here and there, but if you build your style around them, your making a big error. Best way to kill snake is to get him offstage, not through upsmashes.

 

[BluB]

You can theory craft all you want, but fact it bdacus is still really hard to do consistently. Even then you can see it coming.

Saying that and not even trying is stupid.
I've pretty much mastered the BDacus and can do it constantly after down throws and shl and it's definitly NOT expected.
I've been using it at my previous tournament and got a lot of kills with it. I also asked my opponents what they thought about the BDacus and they all told me that it always came really unexpected. Just be smart and do not spam it.
That doesn't mean you only have to get the kill with the BDacus but it's just another option which is really useful if you're able to do it consantly so there's no reason why it would be bad learning it.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[exdia_16]

i hav a little experience in this match-up we hav the bess snake in md/va and i dont play him ever but where really good friends its odd but i would like to be prepared in this match-up the only thing i know is to cg>spike>footstool thats all i got against snake laser is games and mind games i think this match-up should be 45-55 falco but thats my opinion.xD

 

[swordsaint]

I'm saying this hoping BluB will see it, but other people should take BluB's advice.

I've been playing around with the Bdacus for the past hour or so, and while it's hard to do. It's not so hard as to not be able to be mastered like some people are whining about. I have a few things to say on BDacus too.

I've been wondering if BDacus would be viable out of Ftilt? It seems like a good angled set up anyway.

BDacus out of SH/D/L is easy. You have control over when you land, (no lag when you touch the ground) so you have control over where your 10 frames of buffering are. It's easier than people think.

The BIGGEST problem people will be having with BDacus is NOT the input, but rather when the 10 buffer frames start, and where they end. With practice that will come, but we could all learn faster if we knew where our buffer frames started on noteworthy attacks. (Dthrow, ftilt, lasers)

I have a strong feeling that at mid percents where we have nothing to follow up an nair with, BDacus will combo. Unless they're too high, but they're definately within horizontal range.

I'ma post this in the BDACUS thread too, but I posted it here because it was where Blub brought it up.

 

[Wulfy07]

No, I agree. I think that this match up is actually Falco's favor 55-45.

*waits to be shot*

 

[swordsaint]

I used to think that, but I have to go with 55-45 Snake right now. We put him in a lot of bad spots and rack up damage, but he lives so god **** long and kills us so god **** quick that our damage racking abilities are easily countered.

 

[Bloodcross]

I used to think that, but I have to go with 55-45 Snake right now. We put him in a lot of bad spots and rack up damage, but he lives so god **** long and kills us so god **** quick that our damage racking abilities are easily countered.

Not countered but negated.

But yeah, pretty much this post.

 

[SSSnake]

the thing is our u-smash, and, if they are vunerable enough, f-smash are our best kills, and he can resist those at even high percentages... and thats a problem.

 

[Bloodcross]

the thing is our u-smash, and, if they are vunerable enough, f-smash are our best kills, and he can resist those at even high percentages... and thats a problem.

 

[Wulfy07]

I dunno. I still think that at the Dehf versus Ally level it looks closer to even or Falco's favor. Then again, DEHF is a genius when it comes to fighting virtually anyone (except pikachus apparently. Lul at that match up percent)

There is no way this is Snake's favor. 50-50 is worst case as far as I'm concerned. (I say this knowing full well my friend's snake can kick my butt, but he's just broken, lul. Kismet wrecks Billy's snake.)

 

[exdia_16]

thats right and it depends on who ur playing because a really good player has seen everything and play styles like ally and DEHF is just too goods i kneed tips on how to improve him.

 

[Wulfy07]

So, why do we not suppose that a Snake and a Falco of equal skill (approx) will most likely be 50-50? And if we were to determine overall match up percent, I would say that is probably the most true. HOWEVER, whenever I see strong people of considerably close skill, I see that it usually looks like Falco's favor. Billy and Kismet are as close as I got around here personally, and Ally versus DEHF is the best of their categories. Heck, even though there is only one Kismet versus Ally match up I could find on youtube from winterfest, I believe Kismet one more often than he lost, so that still supports a 55-45 Falco favor. By consequence of using this means of judging characters, then ICs would be a slightly harder counter to us: 60-40, though most matches I view do look very 55-45 as they tend to be even with ICs simply having an easier match, but cannot do much outside of their simple one minded plan.

tl; dr
55:45 Falco over Snake.

 

[swordsaint]

Judging match ups based on a top players skill in comparison to another is merely a player match up, not a character match up

snake has an easier time on falco than falco does snake, but that doesn't mean he doesnt have to try - its 55-45 snake because on wrong move on our behalf is like half a stock rofl, he lives too long and has enough BS to negate our positives

as for ice climbers, i would be inclined to agree that it's closer to 60/40. but again you're judging a match up based on specific players and not characters

 

[ScAtt77]

Um.. just gonna put in a little info. :O

Snake can cg Falco at any percent through grab releases and he can also get a free dash attack from a grab release too.

 

[Bloodcross]

Um.. just gonna put in a little info. :O

Snake can cg Falco at any percent through grab releases and he can also get a free dash attack from a grab release too.

That "air release CG" is pretty useless actually when tech chasing would provide a lot more damage. But I guess Snake can air release cg Falco to the ledge then dthrow tech chase to limit Falco's options.

 

[Viperdev]

The air release CG isn't ez for snake to do anyway, its kinda like wario's CG on falco you have to be frame perfect

 

[swordsaint]

viper - that whole statement, while correct in saying it's hard gives the impression we shouldn't include it

watch matches of myself vs tedeth. He's got the wario chain grab down almost perfectly. It's really gay rofl

 

[Viperdev]

Well I didn't mean to give off that impression and I think it should be included I just don't know how much of a difference its gonna make, because with the CG included you guys still say we have a small advantage over wario.

But mostly I'm saying why try and risk doing a hard to do grab release CG when you can simply press down on the control stick...grab release to dash attack however I can see being lethal to us...

And don't worry I've seen matches of DEHF and fiction, I know wario's CG on falco is possoble lol.

 

[swordsaint]

kk

well - for instance, as said above. grab release to the edge, so when they do start the tech chase they've limited our options

and btw, i agree that the falco wario mu is probably slightly in warios favour, but their chain grab can be avoided by platform camping, or camping on an edge where they cant do it

 

[exdia_16]

i dont know how to play this match-up if i where to play candy i would get wrecked so pleeze help everyone is just talking about grab releases ugh.

 

[Viperdev]

kk

well - for instance, as said above. grab release to the edge, so when they do start the tech chase they've limited our options

and btw, i agree that the falco wario mu is probably slightly in warios favour, but their chain grab can be avoided by platform camping, or camping on an edge where they cant do it

Yea I understand and its very possible but that means you have to do it perfectly 1 to 3 times in a row to get to the edge, just doing a down throw seems more likely.

But idk I'll just have to play more snakes and see what they do

 

[smashkng]

The grab release chain grab of Snake can get Falco to the edge which removes Falco's ability to roll away after Dthrows.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Yeah.
Grab release til edge, dthrow
Techchase til opponent rolls behind you
Repeat

 

[exdia_16]

so how do you beat shield nade and how do you kill him?

 

[Wulfy07]

Get him off stage. Also, grab and forward throw shield nade.
Seriously, the grab release stuff isn't broken and really meh... I suppose it's a fair point. But Snake's screw ups also get really badly punished.

Wario versus Falco is probably even where as Falco versus Snake is even at worst. Snake's favor shouldn't be considered because we really can out gay him. >.>
[/opinion]

Still, that's just me.

 

[Attila_]

Yea I understand and its very possible but that means you have to do it perfectly 1 to 3 times in a row to get to the edge, just doing a down throw seems more likely.

snake has 3 frames of room to stuff it up, so its not that difficult. the problem is that falco lands on platforms everywhere that isnt fd.

 

[SSSnake]

so how do you beat shield nade and how do you kill him?

run away and shdl i guess...

 

[exdia_16]

run away and shdl i guess...

so the best way to beat snake is to play like him and wait for the right opportunity to kill. this is so far wat i got from this discussion so far this MU is going 2 be one of the hardest in a tourney.

 

[Cloud9157]

Camp the hell out of him. Once he gets close though, he starts to get tough.

When he is right there, I prefer to Phantasm a good amount, assuming he doesn't have grenades on the ground. Getting him in the air is key, and always look for the grab at low percents.

Killing him sucks. If you're lucky Usmash will kill him somewhat early. I don't know the exact percents, but I think he'll die around 130 from it.

Oh, and you die so easily. Utilt ***** Falco.

 

[smashkng]

Camp the hell out of him. Once he gets close though, he starts to get tough.

When he is right there, I prefer to Phantasm a good amount, assuming he doesn't have grenades on the ground. Getting him in the air is key, and always look for the grab at low percents.

Killing him sucks. If you're lucky Usmash will kill him somewhat early. I don't know the exact percents, but I think he'll die around 130 from it.

Oh, and you die so easily. Utilt ***** Falco.

Usmash doesn't kill Snake at 130%, especially not if they know how to DI. While I don't know the exact percents, I'd say about 150% fresh, maybe even as late 160% with perfect DI because of how heavy Snake is and Falco's Usmash is pretty weak compared to Snake's Utilt.

 

[Blacknight99923]

up smash probably won't kill at 130 against a snake who knows how to DI and as of right now who doesn't?

your kill options here aren't very great seeing as a slight mess up can really screw you over. Your probably going to have to be content to killing at ridiculously high percents with things like uptilt or some other fast move (or possibly an aerial.

this is my perspective of the match up as snake. Take it with a grain of salt

 

[HashyDash]

He is much easier to deal with if you can get him up into the air. I usually like to try to juggle him near the edge of the stage to give him less ground to work on.

 

[exdia_16]

hashydash that sounds about right when playing candy he knever gets in the air in the beginning of every stock. same as luigi get him in the air and you looking at about 30-45 from 0 on snake falco cant do as much on one combo on snake but can put fear into his eyes better than luigi can oh plus wii hav a chain grab they hav to stay off the ground or nade every thing wat i do is reflect every time he pulls a nade out to force him to hold it longer get close and wreck his nade game i just force him into pulling nade to throw him off his real plan to stay grounded and if he starts grabbing then random laser or SHDL away and start over with falco you hav to bee patient especially againt snake.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Basically the easiest way i've seen this match up is spam lasers if he gets up close he's probably crawled to get to you so you're f-smash beats d-tilt, and after one or two times of f-smash punishes you can switch up to a well timed phantasm, or just let him get closer and try and shield grab him or pivot or someting of the sort and then you get the chain grab when he approaches, but if he uses a platform to get past your camping then 1. you weren't camping to greatly, & 2. It works in your advantage and you get to just knock him in the air and juggle. If the Snake has a C4 on the ground a CG to spike will most of the time be a death for the Snake. Also like others have said if you get him up in the air or off of the ledge Snake has to either be clever, or the Falco could trip or something of the sort. Snake out ranges you but your campings gonna make him either hope for a good grenade game or make him get in close since spacing doesn't seem like the greatest option. Also it's true he can gimp your recovery pretty hardcore, but that doesn't seem too bad if he has an extremely hard time landing a hit on you in the first place, and you could probably get back by beating his aerials. Falco's lasers are ridiculous in this match, they can take out proximity mines, grenades(camping), make Snake approach, & cause decent damage from a pretty good distance. I personally don't see this match as 50:50 I see it as more as Falco's advantage, but I could be a bit 1 dimensional with this matchup.

 

[MulticolorShyGuy]

Me and Cecil played this past weekend, don't keep leaving your C4's on the stage early on :D

 

[Ralph Cecil]

I personally believe you shouldn't place C4 period in this match up since it can mean death from the CG into a spike.

 

[clowsui]

cecil still has to play me though i'll tell you the strategy that snake has to use at school is in session.

 

[exdia_16]

Well the snakes i play are very smart with the c4 they wat till they are over a certain point then they place em and they can kill with them pressuring me to run and get camped by nades or tech chase the hell out of me then they got it one Utilt i say c4 should be use only after ur sure u won't get knocked off stage.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Well I guess the only time for it to be safe is after you passed up CG %, but Falco should never be pressured into approaching. Falco out camps which stops Snake's unless they play it risky and try crouching until they could time a cooked grenade, & I guess if they do get close it's a bit of anyones game. Also alright Clowsui. ^_^

 

[exdia_16]

Well I guess the only time for it to be safe is after you passed up CG %, but Falco should never be pressured into approaching. Falco out camps which stops Snake's unless they play it risky and try crouching until they could time a cooked grenade, & I guess if they do get close it's a bit of anyones game. Also alright Clowsui. ^_^

so in a tight spot how would you beat snake even at 110+ if hes nade camping and he has platforms?