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New Game and Watch Matchup Thread!! Currently: Ice Climbers

Mr.Jake and Skate

Smash Apprentice
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Dec 28, 2009
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mrjakeandskate
Yeah the whole reason i included ICs is just because of the grab but Bair can make it so ICs have a tough time approaching you for the grab, Up B help keep off the ground and avoid getting grabbed, I use a lot of smashes when i play against ICs when they are past 60-75% and Dtilt ***** them lol.
 

Today

ლ(இДஇლ)
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Daylightful
Hm! My main problem is that, other exports thread die down so fast and we never get anywhere. In the D3 export I was literally talking to myself and asking myself questions even though I asked for opinions from everyone.
I'm going to need cooperation from others. I can't do things on my own!
That being said, I feel better which is great but it seems like there are still not too much effort in everything.
Anyhow, people go back to the OP and read on what you feel is wrong please.
As for the other exports threads that just died down, I'll try and just go with what little I do have + the old ones. But I really need you guys help. I can't answer questions by myself, and having to ask each x character main for more tips on what they think since I'm not getting anything for GnW.
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
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You guys don't get it when it comes to Diddy. You can't beat him if he knows what to do.

:059:
 

UTDZac

▲▲▲▲▲
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You guys don't get it when it comes to Diddy. You can't beat him if he knows what to do.

:059:
Are you kidding me? o.O

Diddy is a special matchup. You don't play against the Diddy Kong, you play against the bananas. YOU have to be in control of the bananas. You have to know what to do with them. It's not as simple as always glide tossing them back at diddy or throwing them off the stage. Also, learning to pick up bananas primarily with landing airdodges is the most helpful thing in the world. Trying to walk up to the banana and pick it up is nearly impossible.

G&W's pick-up-banana animation can cause him to trip on the same banana he's trying to pick up.

G&W can't jump while standing next to a banana. When G&W jumps his feet speed out really far and cause him to trip.
 

kaak

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 21, 2008
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383
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The Netherlands, Zevenaar
it seems you huys all understand this MU but i loose to random diddy's and have a hard time against noob diddy's so i need a bunch of tips against him.
 

UTDZac

▲▲▲▲▲
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it seems you huys all understand this MU but i loose to random diddy's and have a hard time against noob diddy's so i need a bunch of tips against him.
For practice what I used to do was this:

Completely ignore trying to kill Diddy or doing damage to him. Only focus on getting those darn bananas out of his hands.
Then, only when he has no bananas (or if he's in the air) try attacking him. It's hard to remain focused, but this helped me a lot.
 

Today

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You guys don't get it when it comes to Diddy. You can't beat him if he knows what to do.

:059:
Diddy Kong is one of my easiest and favorite matchups.

Just focus on the bananas. Up-B is your best move here. I always bait Diddy's throwing bananas and upb which always seems to work.
If you're good with banana control then go ahead and take them, but if not I highly suggest just pitching them away. Because throwing a banana back at Diddy is practically giving it back to him. Diddy is super easy without his bananas. Bair and dtilt are good moves with Diddy as well.
 

Kadardes

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 8, 2006
Messages
96
Location
Maine
What happens if I start planking the ledge hard core? Playing to get a slight lead, and then abusing the ledge kind of wrecks diddy.
For an example of how easy it is to **** diddy off the edge watch this video at 2:28 (although the entire set is a very good example of how to play the matchup)
 

Splice

Smash Hero
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Mar 1, 2009
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5,125
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AUS
I have no idea what to do with Bananas when I have them.

I can camp til I get bananas.
But when I get them I just lose them again... And I don't really want to throw them offstage lol

:/

Also is Diddy still hard for us without the bananas? I'm pretty sure some of his airials can still be pretty hard to deal with.
 

@tomic

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 14, 2009
Messages
113
For an example of how easy it is to **** diddy off the edge watch this video at 2:28 (although the entire set is a very good example of how to play the matchup)
You forgot to link the vid.
 

Splice

Smash Hero
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Mar 1, 2009
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I learnt diddy MU, think i've got it down pat.

Really just need to always be careful, after he gets a banana combo on you, don't try to fight back you just need to get out. UpBing whenever you trip or get caught up helps heaps, not much he can do and its another tech chase option after bananas for him to consider.

Offstage sourspot Fair and whiffing the weak hits of Nair stuff him up heaps, quite easy to gimp, as soon as you get a banana you need to make an opening and you can glidetoss into attacks to get him offstage or whatever. Honestly, if you get him offstage at any % he should either die or you'll get a nice 50% on him.

It can still be tough on stages like FD and Smashville with unreliable platforms or no platforms at all, but generally if you can find a safe spot on the stage, it's great. And then of course there is planking the ledge hardcore, but I find you don't want to give him too much stage control. I plank until I realise he is starting to take advantage of it, setting up etc. But used quickly and intelligently planking is effective, even when he has the percent lead.

Now I just need to figure out Snake and Marth lol.
Also how to deal with MK's UpB, I know that very well but, how can I effectively bait it? Also I find myself getting glide-attacked when I try to Uair the UpB sometimes? do I need to change position when im at that angle or is Uair no longer viable in that position? What do you guys do when you think he's waiting for you to do something he can UpB OoS?
 

2-DJeff

Smash Master
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May 9, 2010
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play Meep/Lain. Or, me. Lol. It's easy. It's like, 2 moves. uair and grab.


definitely not lol, Atomsk and I both agree that Dedede wins 55:45, and we're 1-1 in tourney atm. An Olimar that can tech and camp hard will **** gnw. gnw's dthrow is his only saving grace, and his edge-game.

why? it's not like "hurr durr gnw beats pika cuz of bucket". it's a lot more in depth than that. I would say we're still at a slight advantage though.



edit: @penta you're right. What was I thinking. I'll still put 55:45 though :I
I have to agree with vinnie on the olimar MU its extreamly hard if u play a good olimar not much u can do when u get grabed 50 feet away lol
 

GTZ

Smash Ace
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Sep 21, 2010
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wait couldn't it be possible to item slide with diddy's bananas into some sort of dthrow chase combo?? Banana control is usually my method, you bait and then throw what you dont need, then punish with some bair and honestly.. you'd be suprised how the meat beats the fruit... ie bacon vs banana... *sigh* I still have yet to figure out why the grease from that bacon doesn't make enemies slip like banana peels do.. lol
 

DARKDRAGONHIEI

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Apr 13, 2009
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seems accurate except the top part kind of odd he should have a 35/65 against snake but a 40/60 against MK i think the top section should be fix a little
 

wwwilliam0024

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Messages
254
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In a little island called D.R
Game & Watch can beat ICs blizzard with both his Fair and Bair!

Use lots of Neutral B, this is key!

Running A pokes their shields!

Grab nana and Back throw to leave popo alone and useless!!

Then Upsmash Popo to death.
 

Triforce Of Chozo

Smash Ace
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Dec 22, 2009
Messages
663
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Norman, Oklahoma
I played and lost to an ICs yesterday. Space bair on their shield and upb away if they don't get hit. If you get the lead, do not approach. RC is your absolute best CP, I was able to 2-stock them there.
Basically, game one went something like this:
I got a small lead, and I approached. Mistake #1
I got a larger lead, and I approached. Mistake #2
I got a stock lead, and I approached. Mistake #3
I then got grabbed a couple times and lost.
Moral of the story: Play like M2K on Battlefield and win game 1, then you get to have Brinstar or RC for game 3. Lose game 1 and it's probably over.
I think this MU isn't all that bad, it's roughly even-ish.

Thread should be updated though lol.
 

overgamer

Smash Ace
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I played and lost to an ICs yesterday. Space bair on their shield and upb away if they don't get hit. If you get the lead, do not approach. RC is your absolute best CP, I was able to 2-stock them there.
Basically, game one went something like this:
I got a small lead, and I approached. Mistake #1
I got a larger lead, and I approached. Mistake #2
I got a stock lead, and I approached. Mistake #3
I then got grabbed a couple times and lost.
Moral of the story: Play like M2K on Battlefield and win game 1, then you get to have Brinstar or RC for game 3. Lose game 1 and it's probably over.
I think this MU isn't all that bad, it's roughly even-ish.

Thread should be updated though lol.
Have to agree about your 3 mistakes: never approach ICs. Well the thing that sux it that they can somehow force you to approach with their desynch blizzy, but you must not fall to the trap. I'd still give a slight adventage for ICs for this.

Always try to poke in a safe way or using retreating aerials and for god's sake nearly never mess your Dair, although I know it's easier said than done. It's all about avoiding grabs and messing with Nana as much as you can.

Also... What was the starter stage on game 1?
 

Triforce Of Chozo

Smash Ace
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Dec 22, 2009
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663
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Norman, Oklahoma
First game was on Battlefield. You can camp the platforms completely risk free, it's really easy. Just go watch M2K vs Lain, then apply it to G&W. To get a percent lead, first you space bair on their shield, then you UpB. Eventually Nana gets hit, and you work with it from there to either gimp her or get in some damage on Popo. Then you gtfo and proceed to punish mis-spaced upairs. If you can get rid of Nana and camp out SoPo until either timer or they give up and SD, it makes it 100x easier. If they roll behind you, Popo rolls alone while Nana gets hit. If you see them start to roll, just FF the rest of it and grab Popo. Throw him away from Nana and wreck her ****.
Desync blizzard from below the top platform of BF is pretty much useless, since you can just walk slightly behind them and bucket it. Then they have to turn the other climber around, but since they're buffering inputs, they actually can't do it until the original IC you bucketed jumps again, unless they predict it. Then you eat a single upair (like 8-9%? not a problem).
 

Blue Yoshi

Smash Master
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Mar 3, 2008
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Jake is definitely dropping Yoshi
I honestly have no problem against Ice Climbers. I play against Grimice (local Ice Climbers, and apparently one of the better ones out there). I nearly always beat him unless I really play bad. But yeah, all I do against them is literally camp away, do nothing, until I see an opening where I am GUARANTEED to hit him without being punished (key word GUARANTEED, because likely is a trap which will result in getting grabbed). This usually comes up when he, say, desynchs his characters, but the timing of his desynchs results in a short period of time where both his popo and nana are free to be hit by an attack. Otherwise, I never approach him, never go anywhere near him, and avoid the possibility of getting grabbed at all costs.

Once they are separated, ALWAYS GO FOR NANA (well... unless you can down-tilt gimp popo for the stock or something, but otherwise, always go for Nana). Popo sucks at saving Nana against GaW, so we can just rack up the damage on her, and eventually get the kill. Don't worry if Popo hits you a few times, if you can kill Nana, then that 20% you received was well worth it, since now all he can do is... well, nothing. If he somehow does manage to get Nana back, Nana has way more damage, meaning the next time you hit them, Nana goes flying away, and they're separated again.

Also, a cruel trick you can do that works really well (if you really don't feel safe playing against both Nana and Popo) is if you have killed Nana, and you have the lead, don't kill Popo. Popo can't do much to you, and instead, you can just increase his damage with *insert move here*, while he may hit you a few times a minute at the most (unless you mess up horribly). But in the end, if he doesn't suicide, he runs the risk of having the timer run out on him. Grimice says that some Ice Climbers just suicide Popo once he's alone because of this fact.

But yeah, my favourite move by far in this matchup is Bair. There is literally almost nothing they can do against it. Popo can't powershield it, or Nana gets hit by it, and if they get hit by it, they can't punish you properly, or may even be separated (depends on your follow-up).

As far as stages go, obviously Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar etc. But otherwise, I always go for a platform stage, since platform camping is the easiest way to ensure you don't get grabbed. Grimice says Battlefield is his best stage (and claims it to be IC's best stage), so we always end up going there, but even if it is IC's best stage, it is an even better GaW stage, especially in this match-up.

As far as moves go, I almost always use Bair on him. I never use bacon (if predicted, can easily be grabbed), I never approach with Fair (can be grabbed easily), and... well, only use Bair when approaching/punishing. It works amazing.



But yeah, here's what I do:

1. Camp on the sides waiting for a mistake or opening.

2. Bair punish > Follow up if possible, safe, and guaranteed not to get grabbed

3. If IC are not separated, and a safe follow up is possible (usually Nair), continue following up until it is no longer safe to do so.

- If IC are not separated, and a continuing safe follow up is not available, go to 1.
- If IC are separated, go to 4.

4. Go all-out for Nana. Don't worry about attacking Popo much, as long as you don't stop the pressure on Nana. Nairs, up-airs, Fairs, and up-B are my most commonly used attacks here. Avoid Popo if possible, but really, don't worry if you get hit a few times. The trouble you're giving Nana is well worth it.

- If Nana survives, and is reunited with Popo, go to 1.
- If Nana dies, go to 5.

5. Play safe. Avoid getting hit at all costs. Yes, it's just Popo, but he can still rack up decent damage if you're not careful. Just wait for him to make a mistake and leave an opening, and punish when necessary. If you are winning (stock or percent), decide if you are going to try and time him out with just his popo. If you are doing so, play safe for the rest of the match. Otherwise, go for the kill when it is safe to do so.



I would say this matchup is 60-40 at the worst. I would probably say it's 65-35.

As long as you play this match-up smart, and don't make any mistakes (it's easier than it sounds), then you should have no problem against IC's. And spam Bairs.



Edit: wow, long post, and hi guys, it's been a while :p
 

PantyRaider08

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 27, 2008
Messages
450
Location
Austin, TX
Yeah, bair is the worst option against Ice Climbers. You will just get shield grabbed and have a stock taken off. Also if you camp platforms you are just going to get up aired.
 
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