New Character: Zelda.

[Phaazoid]

the thing that evened out zelda in melee was shiek. rack up damage with speedy hit and runs, transform to zelda and blast them to kingdom come. if the update did infer that zelda would be slow and powerful, that just points to shiek more.

 

[Shade_666]

I don't see why Sheik would be, its the TP design Zelda. Sheik wasn't in TP so IMO it would be stupid to put Sheik in.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

the thing that evened out zelda in melee was shiek. rack up damage with speedy hit and runs, transform to zelda and blast them to kingdom come. if the update did infer that zelda would be slow and powerful, that just points to shiek more.

The problem was that system didn't work. Shiek was far too capable on her own while Zelda wasn't able to compensate on her own. When was the last time you saw someone actually use Zelda/Shiek, as opposed to one or the other?

And Zelda being slow but powerful doesn't really point to Sheik at all, it just means that she'll likely play the same, but hopefully can actually handle herself this time.

Seriously though guys, can we please talk about Zelda in the Zelda thread. There are already several topics dedicated to Sheiks return so it's pointless to argue it here.

 

[Phaazoid]

@shade 666

no, it isn't really tp zelda. she is more blond. and looks a little different.

@lukefonfabre
i know, but the devolpers might not have the same opinion, and i'm just saying it sounded to me like they hinted towards shiek. i wouldn't care either way, though.

 

[Onifrio]

Guys I cant believe you want zelda to get stronger. If she can defend herself then she wont get captured and then what is link supposed to do all day...chill with eponya sippin on some lon lon?



jk i suppport nerfing/cutting shiek.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Since Zelda still inherits her low mobility and a few of a her moves from Melee,it makes me wonder,how can you make Zelda great without having great mobility?

Perhaps having attacks that come out quickly?I really hope she doesn't still have he Uair,it couldn't hit anything,and it came out slower than molasis. >_>

 

[BDAOutlaw]

I don't see why Sheik would be, its the TP design Zelda. Sheik wasn't in TP so IMO it would be stupid to put Sheik in.

you and 30+ other people.....

Sheik can be in if Sakurai wants her in simple as that......the more characters in Brawl the better (unless it hits some outrageous number like 200) but since Nintendo and Sakurai are so hooked on makeing the Wii some fun mofo machine

I see no reason why they shouldnt have sheik......just make her a seperate character slap on some extra random stuff make her more detailed and she can represent OoT on her own

While Zelda represents TP

.....O and I guess Link will be the boss of em Both .

 

[Onifrio]

^^That would definitely support my make zelda helpless campaign. Thanks for the idea.

 

[Fawriel]

Since Zelda still inherits her low mobility and a few of a her moves from Melee,it makes me wonder,how can you make Zelda great without having great mobility?

Why not? Link was pretty good despite being one of the slowest, Ganondorf was slow, too... and so on.
The problem with her uair was rather a disgustingly small hitbox that made it hard to hit anything with it. If it was like Bowser's uair, it'd be amazing. Her up-smash and forward-smash are good, but they can be DI'd out of.

What she does need is stuff to actually defend herself when she's being comboed. Her dair is useless for that, so is the nair...
She was meant to be a defensive character, which was apparently translated as "is screwed if you don't defend yourself well" or "can't play offensively".

So.. yeah. Bigger hitboxes, no easy DIing, and priority. Plus a fixed recovery. I despise Farore's Wind.

 

[Onifrio]

Yea its an awesome recovery as far as reaching the stage gos but you cant sweetspot it (easily) and if your under the ledge your screwed.

 

[BoG]

Well, I've been wondering what all of us have been wondering, whether or not Shiek will make a return. Right now I'm gonna put my moeny on yes, thanks to todays site update with Ocarina of time music. We've had two TP style characters, and with an ocarina of time medley that either points too a stage or character from OoT. While a stage is more likely, that doesn't totally rule out shiek.
Actually, I'm totally unsure.

 

[Onifrio]

Everyone is unsure and to be honest its annoying to see people speculate/assume and back it with 100% of their being. Nobody here knows anymore than anyone else.

 

[Aki-toriko]

I'd definately like Zelda's moves to be given a reshuffle. Having her as slow and weak yet with powerful magic attacks is all well and good IF the magic attacks are powerful, which for Zelda they weren't in Melee. She just needs to be able to inflict a little more damage, to stop being so dammed reliant on hitting an opponat dead on, and if Sheiks gone given a powerful new B move. That's really all she needs.

 

[J4ke]

....

I disagree completely with the idea that more characters in brawl will automatically mean its better, especially if the characters included seem... innapropriate.

The brawl character roster should and will be a concise and well rounded representation of nintendo/cross over all stars. Having a huge roster with characters that tend to lean more into the obscure range is like playing poker with a deck of 70 cards. Sure you might have a better chance at getting more aces, but the whole experience is wack.

 

[Super Smash Master]

Why would sakurai get rid of characters who aren't completely useless? (AKA Clones). He has no reason to trash characters he spent time creating movesets for. Why would he opt to take characters out when

A. A lot of people use and love sheik.
B. She is the reason why 90% of the people use Zelda
C. Wouldn't he rather have say 41 characters instead of 40 when he could easilly just make an upgraded model for Sheik?

Sakurai won't get rid of anyone but clones.

 

[LukeFonFabre]

We don't know that, not only do we not know how many characters aren't returning, but we don't know that they are restricted to simply the clone characters. And honestly, I feel that Sheik is the most likely non-clone character to get cut.

And don't confuse the competitive scene with the general smash fanbase. Sheik isn't as popular amongst the casual crowd as she is here.

 

[PrinnyFlute]

It seems like a lot of people who want Sheik back only want it because of her moveset, how she plays. To this end I'm sure there's multiple ways Sakurai could bring that back in a different character without plopping Sheik into the game. Zamus is said to have some similarities, and there're probably a few other acrobatic, ninja-esque Nintendo people that might be substitutable. Of course, he could always bring her back as a seperate character, or, despite the logical problems therein, just shove Sheik into this TP Zelda.

Like said, if Sakurai wants Sheik back in the game, or wants to reincarnate her into a new character, he will, no big deal. I'd assume most of us don't mind either way, we're just saying...TP Zelda -> Sheik is a bit of a stretch.

Edit:

And don't confuse the competitive scene with the general smash fanbase. Sheik isn't as popular amongst the casual crowd as she is here.

That's probably true, too. Most casual Nintendo fans probably don't have much drive to play as Zelda/Sheik in the first place, let alone dealing with a character who has two sets of moves to learn instead of one. Which is why if he brings her back he'll probably be doing it for Sheik players (possibly as a different character with the same moveset,) and not Sheik fans.

 

[Aki-toriko]

Lets take a vote. All those who want Sheik back for her moves and power raise your hand...sure are a lot of you. Now those of you who want Sheik for her rich, historical heritage within the Zelda series...hello...anyone at all?

Sheik is a minor character (technically not even a pure character because she was Zelda in disguise) in OOT that became an instant celebrity the moment Melee arrived by being one of the strongest characters. People were indifferent to her before Melee, then all of a sudden everyone loved her. What a coincidence, people falling in love with a character who just happens to be one of the strongest characters in the game!

Sheik's impact on the Zelda series has been minimal, there's no other way of looking at it, Sheik is a minor Zelda character who last appeared in a game nine years ago. There is one reason and one reason alone she would return, she was a powerful Melee character. Some people would say that is enough, but probably not the developers. Also remember that Sheik was primarily included as an experiment, to see whether characters that could change midbrawl would work. That experiment backfired spectacularly when people mostly played as one or the other, but not both as intended.

It would just make much more sense to give Sheiks moves to a newer, more relevent character (there are plenty of characters that would fit the bill, not just Zamus). Personally, I don't really care if Sheik is in or not (I never played as her), and her inclusion is still very much possible, but I find it priceless when people stoutly defend Sheik when all they want her for is her moves, not her character. If this truly is the case, what difference does it make if she is ditched and her moves passed on or not?

One final point, if Zelda was the higher tier, and Sheik the lower one, would so many people be clamouring for Sheik to return?

 

[Onifrio]

Everyone is unsure and to be honest its annoying to see people speculate/assume and back it with 100% of their being. Nobody here knows anymore than anyone else.

Like this guy

vvvv

Why would sakurai get rid of characters who aren't completely useless? (AKA Clones). He has no reason to trash characters he spent time creating movesets for. Why would he opt to take characters out when

A. A lot of people use and love sheik.
B. She is the reason why 90% of the people use Zelda
C. Wouldn't he rather have say 41 characters instead of 40 when he could easilly just make an upgraded model for Sheik?

Sakurai won't get rid of anyone but clones.

Nobody knows and nobody will know until the game is released or revealed in an update.

Try stating things as an opinion not as a fact,

"Sakurai won't get rid of anyone but clones."

Unless you interviewed him....then who are you to state that.

 

[Keitaro]

They just better fix Zelda's **** up-B move or else.

 

[Meta-Knight]

This is the best update they've had so far. I don't really like Zelda that much but the reason I'm saying it's the best is because they just up and surprised us with a character this time. Maybe they'll reveal another character this week or next...and **** it to hell, it better be Yoshi or Bowser. :D

 

[Super Smash Master]

Like this guy

vvvv



Nobody knows and nobody will know until the game is released or revealed in an update.

Try stating things as an opinion not as a fact,

"Sakurai won't get rid of anyone but clones."

Unless you interviewed him....then who are you to state that.

I am sorry I can state what I believe. No need to be a complete douchebag about it.

But anyway, back to intelligent conversation.

Sakurai obvious likes Sheik. Everyone says "What sakurai wants, Sakurai gets", right? Well, he obviously liked Sheik if he put her in the game. Why would he take out a character he likes just because she hasn't been used recently. With this mentality, I don't see how it would make sense to game Zamus in, because she hasn't been in a Metroid game since the 80s if I am correct (Unless you count Zero mission, but that was a remake). Now, Zamus wasn't in MP and her model is based off of MP so I don't see why it makes sense to say Sheik can't be in, because Zelda looks like she did in TP. If that is true, it wouldn't make sense for her to use the spells she did in Melee, because those spells were in OOT and not TP. Also, it wouldn't make sense to have Zamus when she hasn't been in MP. The logic everyong uses about TP Zelda = No Sheik is flawed. Smash characters are based off of ALL games they were in, not just the recent ones. Mario still has his cape from Mario World. Another example.

 

[Onifrio]

I am sorry I can state what I believe.

Then state it as what you believe also known as an opinion not a fact.

No need to be a complete douchebag about it.

Now that wasn't very nice.

But anyway, back to intelligent conversation.

Sakurai obvious likes Sheik.

Whatever you say captain caveman.

_____________________________________________________________________

Anywho back on topic...

As long as they take some frames out of her up-air give her down air some power/spike/bigger hitbox /make her a bit more floaty to avoid shield grabs she will be much better.

 

[Black/Light]

. . . .He likes Sheik so she stays in? And we know this because he put her in the game? Zero hasn't been in a game in w/e long?

1. With that logic he would have never said he would take characters out if he "likes" all of them or w/e.
2. Zero suit is in every game. . .as in Samus is Samus in all her games unless theres a new Samus every game. .

 

[PrinnyFlute]

We have no proof that Samus and Zamus are going to be a pair ala Zelda/Sheik. If not, then it doesn't matter much that their costumes are from two different games. Also worth noting that Samus's MP suit looks...about the same as her old suit, and no matter which suit she's in, or lack thereof, she's still the same person.

This is all kind of a stark contrast to TP Zelda, which is an established different person from OoT's Zelda (her ancestor, what-have-you. Series director Aonuma has confirmed that each iteration of Zelda and Link are different people,) and I think Sakurai's knowledgable of that fact.

And, well, honestly...a deviation so small as that in attacks doesn't even count. She's the princess in a magical, fictional world, it's not that far fetched to say she learned some spells her ancestors happened to know when they're all based on the same three goddesses that created the world they all live in. Like I noted before, Ness knew moves he never learned in Earthbound, and Sheik never had a chain or needles. They flesh out what they need to, and just because we don't see those moves in TP doesn't mean it's a big stretch to say she could learn them somehow when they all inhabit the same small country over thousands(?) of years anyway.

I got nothin' against Sheik, but it seems to make sense to me that it'd be weird to see TP Zelda transform into a character that's presumably been dead for (more than?) hundreds of years. He might do it anyway, or he might say TP Zelda's had some of her own Sheika training (even though the tribe is supposedly gone...huh?) But the Zelda from Melee and the Zelda from Brawl are representing two different people, generations apart, and I think Sakurai's pretty conscious of that.

 

[darkshy]

I like her new look. If only she had a weapon of some sort. Her range on the ground is nothing to really be amazed at.

 

[Stryks]

Super smash master:

Ok one:
Where in gods name are u getting: "Sakurai likes shiek" seriously, did he mentioned that? or is it BS 101? a link would be apreciated..

two:
Zamus DID apepar in MP2! clear the game with 90-95% and u see zero suit samus, as well in MPH in the end...

three:
Samus suit IS based on MP, give me images where in games BEFORE Metroid prime was released samus has lights on her shoulde rpads and chest...
All of those details were added IN METROID PRIME, and has been used SINCE, look at MP2, MPH, MP3 and zero mission (zero mission was released AFTER MP1)

four:
SAMUS IS THE SAME PERSON IN EVERY METROID GAME
Zelda is not, if zelda from TP would be the same zelda fom OoT, ok no prob lets add shiek, but they ARENT the same person, TP takes hundreds of years AFTER OoT, and thus TP Zelda (or in other words Future Zeda) transforming into OoT (Past Zelda) is absolutely ********...

five:
Zelda DID use magic in TP, how can you explain how she passed her life/soul/triforce/whatever to Midna when she was diying? and how was she using the ligth arrows??

six:
Ok again SAMUS IS ALWAYS THE SAME PERSON, and has ALWAYS have the zero suit on when wearing the Chozo suit, but in mp1 she never took off the battle suit, thus u cant see it, but in zero mission u can see she has that suit, and sil lhas it in mp2/mph...

seven:
"Smash characters are vased off of ALL the games they were in"
EXACTLY! Shiek only had one minor role in one game, and if not important to the ENTIRE zelda series, she was just a disguise for one game, thats it, and she wil lnever be used againa, why? cause she was a disguise, if she returns theres no point cause we know who she really is: Zelda

Eight:
"Mario stil lhas his cape from mario world"
O RLY? no **** sherlock, seeing how in every game Mario has always been the same character, but TP zelda AINT the same zelda from OoT, ur reasoning fails completely...

 

[K Balls]

all i have to say is Zelda is hot and I am happy that she is in the game one of my fav characters in melee. it doesnt look like she is wearing high heels, but i hope that she can run faster or something, and i hope that she still has here lightning kicks.

 

[Onifrio]

The entire argument on the prediction of whether shiek will return or not is based loosely on a few key points.

1. OOT and TP zelda are two different people. OOT zelda has the ability to transform into shield whilst TP zelda does not. In brawl this is TP zelda not OOT zelda so logically based off that shiek would no longer be a transformation of zelda.

2. Sakurai may not even take point 1 into account so your pretty much back to the ol' drawing board.

3. Shiek may even be her own character now.

 

[DokturSea]

Not only am I glad she's in, I'm also glad she doesn't have a sword. She never really used it in TP unless I missed something important.


I'm not sure if I'm happy or sad about Sheiks absence. I mean, the fun of Zelda is balancing two completely different characters.

 

[Onifrio]

^^Well think of it this way if shiek is gone zelda gets a new vB

 

[DokturSea]

While this is true, I still think Sheik not being there would be a bit of a loss.


Also, I'm NOT taking any direct sides, but if the website updates with Sheik STILL as Zelda's downB, I'll laugh really hard at everyone who's been yelling and screaming at anyone who says Sheik's coming back.


I'm not saying that she will, though. I, personally, don't think she is. But I'm not gonna make a big deal out of it. I wouldn't mind if she did, and I wouldn't mind if she didn't.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

I'm hoping the Zelda-related updates continue this week. Particularly for Zelda, the specific character. Given that a good 70% or more of her strategy in Melee revolves around B-Air and F-Air, I'd love to see what sort of rebalancing Sakurai has done for her. I say this because I'd like her to be one of my mains, alongside Link and Pit. But if she doesn't get some serious help, well...

 

[Zone]

Worst. Idea. Ever.

You NEVER patch fighting games. NEVER. EVER.

The most minuscule of changes can change the entire game, and it is not fair to tournament players to change the whole game with a patch. Bad. Wrong. Neverdoit.

Not fair? then adapt. As they patch it. They will eventually find a fixed product where they won't need to patch anymore. Once it's settled to be pretty perfectly balanced while still being a deep fast game.

Depends on what you want I guess

1.) Be kinda a beta tester for patches to come until its a perfectly balanced and deep game. having to mess with it. Getting a GREAT final product

2.) Not changing anything. and basically creating a game that only has REALLY 3-6 characters tournament worthy. while the rest sit there and get played out of "Fun" and unseriously with a few exceptions of people of great skill.

For Example:
Starcraft had a spawning pool of 150 minerals. Zergling rush was becoming a disgusting tactic. They changed it to 200 minerals. evened the playing field alot. How can you argue with minor Adjustments?

I'm not talking about changing an entire moveset
all you have to do is change a bit of physics, or perhaps how much dmg is done with a move. To balance it. Worse Idea ever? Has this even been done yet? I'm not so sure, so don't jump to conclusions based on what you think will come of it.

I prefer a final perfect product, Not a starting product unchanged so I don't have to adapt, and leaving it broken.

*Edit* Although I love Melee, I'm still dissapointed in the imbalances that pretty much make half the efforts of the game meaningless for tournament play. well not meaningless, But someone who loves say, Mewtwo or Bowser, shouldn't be forced to play top tier characters in tournaments and only have mewtwo or bowser for friendlies. Melee Good game? hell yes, and very fun. But Still not anywhere near close to a perfect game.

Again Patches will eventually stop. They don't go on forever, Think of the SSBB release as a 1year beta. When we break it down. It's changed and you get a better final product. Hopefully not removing any advanced techs that were "accidental" That add depth to the game. (aka Wave dash)

 

[PrinnyFlute]

Worst. Idea. Ever.

You NEVER patch fighting games. NEVER. EVER.

The most minuscule of changes can change the entire game, and it is not fair to tournament players to change the whole game with a patch. Bad. Wrong. Neverdoit.

Understand how you feel, but what percentage of games sold is to tournament players? Wouldn't it help move more copies if people actually were able to competitively play with their friends as their favorite characters? Wouldn't more people ultimately have fun that way? In any case, like Zone implied, most patch changes wouldn't really change any strategies, just squish the tiers closer together.

 

[darkshy]

Worst. Idea. Ever.

You NEVER patch fighting games. NEVER. EVER.

The most minuscule of changes can change the entire game, and it is not fair to tournament players to change the whole game with a patch. Bad. Wrong. Neverdoit.

So you would rather if Marth returns he'll still be cheap? Or that many characters not used very often stay that way?

 

[Stryks]

Why would sakurai get rid of characters who aren't completely useless? (AKA Clones). He has no reason to trash characters he spent time creating movesets for. Why would he opt to take characters out when

A. A lot of people use and love sheik.
B. She is the reason why 90% of the people use Zelda
C. Wouldn't he rather have say 41 characters instead of 40 when he could easilly just make an upgraded model for Sheik?

Sakurai won't get rid of anyone but clones.

A) Yeah those that like using broken character for an advantage, sheik is broken as easy to use, anyone can pick up this character and use her completely, I was pummeled by one of my friends who doesnt like smash and was using sheik, thats shows the brokeness...
B) Wrong, most sheik players dotn use zelda only for her UpB, thats it... and most that use zelda (a few) dont use shiek a lot...
c) Yeah one character will be the factor of sells...

What make su so **** sure only clones will leave? Sheik is no longer (never was actually) improtant to the zelda series, and seeing how TP zelda AInt... (gonna repeat it if u missed it) AINT OoT zelda, TP zelda wasnt trained as a sheikah by Impa unlike OoT zelda, hwo in gods name will TP zelda transform into her alter ego from hundreds years in the past withouth the trainign OoT Zelda use to accomplish it? Sakurai, being the smart man that he is, wont keep a secondary character from OoT, and a minor character in the zelda series in general just so we can have ONE more character in the roster...

 

[DokturSea]

Stryks, you're acting just as immature of Super Smash Master. You sound like if you loose this argument, you'll get killed or something. It doesn't matter. SSM is titled to his opinion.


And please don't call what you've been posting "debate". Debate is civilized. Right now you're posting a tantrum.

 

[PrinnyFlute]

I'd just like to note, on the side, that I actually thought Sheik was really cool when OoT came out. Not only was she a ninja, and I mean...c'mon. Ninja. But I also thought it added a lot of character to Zelda to see her doing things and not just sitting around waiting to get rescued again.

 

[Paranoid_Android]

Stryks, you're acting just as immature of Super Smash Master. You sound like if you loose this argument, you'll get killed or something. It doesn't matter. SSM is titled to his opinion.


And please don't call what you've been posting "debate". Debate is civilized. Right now you're posting a tantrum.

You're doing it wrong. If you want to end an argument between several people, you have to insult all of them to such a point that they would rather argue with you than with each other, and then disappear from the thread.