New Character: Zelda.

[Zone]

SSBM 1.1 is released tomorrow. The following changes are made. Note that these are all very minor changes, and seek to 'Balance' the game.

Marth-
F.Smash has longer lag
Grab range slightly reduced

Shiek-
F.Air has slightly less knockback, does more damage
Dash Attacks knockback mechanics changed slightly so it is easier to DI out of or tech

Fox-
U.Smash does slightly less knockback
Shine does slightly less knockback

etc.

These changes will seem minor, and 'better' to the game, but they COMPLETELY change the gameplay. They make it a 'new game' every patch, and everyone has to re-learn character matchups, everything. People don't want that, they want to build on older knowledge.

As I said Earlier. Tell me the method below hurts you as a top tier? No need to take out what you said. But what if luigi suddenly became harder. or Yoshi's 2nd Jump can't be meteored or hit out of til 100% instead.

I don't personally like Nerfing, That normally means taking depth from the game. Now for something that is totally unfair like. Infinites, especially if they are super easy to pull off, I could go for a nerf.

Generally I think nerfing can take speed and depth from a game unless it's used for my example above. I prefer buffing, the lower characters which usually *Adds* depth to a game to compete with the broken characters. Which my point of "Patches" was aimed for.

Also, Kalypso You do realize Patches will eventually stop. A Balance Will be met. And No more "adapting" will be needed since you seem to be upset about having to adapt. I for one Play Marth, Fox, Falco, Shiek, Ganondorf, Zelda, Samus, Pikachu. Notice I play top tiers? lol It's only cuz I hate losing. And I'm also sick of playing against the same characters over and over. I get thrilled when someone throws a pichu at me and he's **** good. But I still end up winning cuz pichu isn't such a hot character. (Unless that PIchu was played by a god >.>). As a player who plays top tiers in tournaments and low tiers for fun. I really wish I had the confidence with Zelda or Pikachu to play in a tournament cuz they are more fun to play for me.

IF there needs to be a nerf. It would be for obvious reasons most likely. your example was a bit extreme. Taking away the tip? LOL that's putting marth way down there because That's how I get 80% of my kills. Grab range reduced..? Sounds like Pichu's problem already. Instead of reducing Marth's Grab. Increase pichu's. Or make Luigi's Up+B like Marios but still only do that one crap coin, just same direction. You're gimping everything to make the appearance worse. Instead leave the top tiers as they are except possible let link fly farther from Fox's Shine so he can't be wave shined so easily. So on.

But you could be right. There are examples of patches failing in the past. My friend always complains about WoW updates/patches because they are nerfing 24/7. FFXI updates I love because they are always buffing the crap classes. rather than nerfing.

Also I sincerely doubt Brawl will be balanced. How can a small crew of people working on the game, find all the broken pieces and glitches and find out who needs tweaking, when they aren't maining the character for a year or more. Like I said Before

It takes a group of people like Smashboards to find the flaws which need to be patched.

But realistically the best way to make sure patches are done correctly would mean having to pay a monthly bill of like 3 dollars like you do in most patched games. So you have a small crew of people working on looking at imbalances and watching fights.

I guess patches is really all preference.

Either Group 1#
I don't like to adapt I have to keep changing the way I fight certain characters that get better.

Group#2
I like to adapt, gives me a challenge and other character choices now that I'm getting wrecked by something I didn't expect.

Group#3
Your greedy and you want to win money preying on people at tournaments who will end up losing cuz of their choice of character in the first place.

Kalypso your right though about patches not affecting casual players. Hell casual players tier list is so different to a competitive tier list.

 

[DokturSea]

The only reason I could see Sheik being removed for, or added as her own character (which wouldn't make any sense, but hey, neither did Link and Young Link) is that too few people were playing Zelda for Zelda. Having her as her own character opens a lot of doors for Zelda and Zelda players.

And I'm just saying now, I'm a firm non-believer in this whole "SHEIKS NOT GUNNA B N CUZ ZELDA IZ FRUM TP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" I don't think Zelda is "from" anything in this game, but I doubt Sakurai said "OK, since Twilight Princess just came out, let's trash Link and Zelda's movesets and give them completely new ones, because if we don't correspond with them, we will be shot. Oh, and trash that ninja ***** too."

 

[Stryks]

Well remember, in OoT and TP link fought with pretty much the same fighting style, TP having a few extra moves, that could be implemented, but doubt it...

Zelda still uses magic in TP, thus the moveset can stay, just give her light arrows...

Ganondorf is an exception, being more Magic-based in OoT, and in TP hes more of a swordsman, but since he was a clone in melee, theyll probably just give him the sword of sages thus decloning him...

So even thought Link and Zelda have the TP desing, they still fight similair to their past counterparts, though TP zelda doesnt transform into shiek

 

[TDub301]

Exactly, Shiek isn't in TP and they're using the TP version of Zelda. Not confirming it, but indicating that Shiek has been cut.

 

[Kalypso]

Also, Kalypso You do realize Patches will eventually stop.

No, they don't. Starcraft had a patch released a year or so ago, and that game is 10 years old. When you introduce a system of 'patching,' it rarely stops. Typically it continues indefinitly. In an RTS it is a much smaller problem, because matches last much longer, and the impact can be statistically analyzed. With a fighting game change, you need to re-learn metagame, which takes years.

 

[OmegaXXII]

well I was lazy to look up Zelda moves, but does anyone know if she will have a transformation? I hope not

 

[Zone]

No, they don't. Starcraft had a patch released a year or so ago, and that game is 10 years old. When you introduce a system of 'patching,' it rarely stops. Typically it continues indefinitly. In an RTS it is a much smaller problem, because matches last much longer, and the impact can be statistically analyzed. With a fighting game change, you need to re-learn metagame, which takes years.

lol That patch you are talking about was just add features to being able to view the map while in briefing room and a few other lobby options. Didn't do anything to the game features.

And it does eventually stop. There hasn't been 1 update since the drone float glitch that altered the game at all. Before that it was the mineral costs of Turrets, Spawning pool, and Scouts and that was it. Sure they had lots of patches, but most of those were attempts at stopping map hacking. Or adding Lobby features. And all they did was take out a glitch which recently developed that wasn't ment to be there. And it takes years to re-learn? You never stop learning in ANY game. You never stop developing skills in ANY game. Unless we are talking about a pure chance game like Scissor rock paper. You'd think Ken the top King of smash for a long time wouldn't have anything to learn. But he got defeated by PC chris. And I recently seen PC chris destroyed by M2K's Marth. Even those guys are still learning. So your upset about having to re-learn stuff you'd have to continue learning anyways. So Learning or Relearning... It's all learning, and it's for the sake of balance. So your saying when they reached near perfection for the game balance wise. They'd keep patching anyways? Not likely. I'm not asking for continuous upgrades. I'm asking for balance. Continuous upgrades lasts forever. Aim for balance does not. Starcraft's aim for balance was long done a long time ago. Starcraft's Upgrading for lobby and pre-game settings apparently still continue.

Besides, when has this been done before for a fighting game. Answer me that please. If it's been done more than like 20 times before and 95% of it resulted in failure. I'd comply to what you say. Until then Patches to alter balance ftw.

Like I said before it's like the release of SSBB will actually be beta testing for about a year or possibly 2. then you'll eventually meet a more better refined product.

What if this...
What if it only did analyzed our playing for about 2 years. Then fixed it and balanced it at one go. Would you be satisfied then? Don't say that's like having a new game because its not. We aren't adding new variables here like new characters to completely screw up the mathmatical balance here. Which is what new games that add new variables do. Adding brand new large scale variables pretty much makes you have to start from scratch.

Same Engine, Same characters, ONe big patch for good to balance it 2 years later for a near perfect product. Then stop. That way you'd only have to adapt once. When really constant adapting wouldn't be a problem for me. I adapt rather fast. Some more than me. I've played a smasher named Rice he obliterated me, and I had been playing 2 years senior to him.

I still appeal to a more consistent adapting than one big one because consistency is more accurate than trying to change the giant spectrum one time w/o testing.

It boils down to. Don't mind adapting for game balance. Or You do mind adapting because it messes up your grove.

anyways my point is

Re-learning... and Learning... it's all learning same crap.

 

[Kalypso]

Starcraft is a bad example, being that it's the most perfectly balanced RTS in history. However, look at other patched-balance games, like WoW. Will WoW ever be balanced? Probably not, every time they 'balance' it seems to further **** everything up, and Blizzard is smart people.

 

[Zone]

Starcraft is a bad example, being that it's the most perfectly balanced RTS in history. However, look at other patched-balance games, like WoW. Will WoW ever be balanced? Probably not, every time they 'balance' it seems to further **** everything up, and Blizzard is smart people.

yea ur probably right.

I did use WoW earlier has a prime example of PAtches failing. But that's the companys fault for not really knowing wth they are patching. and why they are doing it. lol ^^d

I think the patch thing is a big opinionated thing. Not really a good or bad idea in my view, It'll lure pple in, and draw pple away. It was fun to talk about though. I just had to defend myself when I was told "worst idea ever" in my face.

 

[Kalypso]

yea ur probably right.

I did use WoW earlier has a prime example of PAtches failing. But that's the companys fault for not really knowing wth they are patching. and why they are doing it. lol ^^d

I think the patch thing is a big opinionated thing. Not really a good or bad idea in my view, It'll lure pple in, and draw pple away. It was fun to talk about though. I just had to defend myself when I was told "worst idea ever" in my face.

I think that imbalances are inherent to fighting games. Adapting to them is what seperates good players from bad players. Nothing is impossible (A G/W player direvulcan I think has been placing top-5 in tournaments with G/W. Major tournaments), but refusal to accept balance scheme is, at its core, refusal to accept the game. Patching only reveals further imbalances, as opposed to the current ones, and ****s up high level play.

It's best to take a game for what it is and not try to change it.

 

[Zone]

I think that imbalances are inherent to fighting games. Adapting to them is what seperates good players from bad players. Nothing is impossible (A G/W player direvulcan I think has been placing top-5 in tournaments with G/W. Major tournaments), but refusal to accept balance scheme is, at its core, refusal to accept the game. Patching only reveals further imbalances, as opposed to the current ones, and ****s up high level play.

It's best to take a game for what it is and not try to change it.

I wouldn't necessarily say best. Again for a fighting game I don't think a patching system has been done. So Until it happens i'm gonna feel mutual about it. Although to me it seems a promising step. But I may be looking at it too positively, as you are negatively.

 

[Jossy]

im glad zelda returned, never played much with her in melee but the character just seems a lot better now... Hope the moves have improved...

as for sheik.... i hope he'll return cuz he a kick *** character, but i don't think so... not unless he's returning in a future game that we don't know about yet (im sure they're working on a new zelda for wii, after the somewhat disappointing ease of TP)

 

[NMOR]

IMO, I don't care if shiek appears or not. Shiek was a nice addition to melee, but if she doesn't appear in Brawl, no one would kill themselves in sadness. At least, we got a character confirmation (and, a female one).

 

[TDub301]

It is significant that they're using TP Zelda, because every Zelda game is supposed to be a completely different story with different characters who just share the same name (not making this up, I know it doesn't sound legitimate). So with this theory that has been widely accepted by Zelda fans that I've seen, the Zelda in OoT and the Zelda in TP are 2 totally different people who just share the same name, just like all the Links are different, supposedly. It doesn't make sense the way I'm saying it, but it has been thouroughly discussed before, and I don't remember where. Ok **** it, just forget I said anything.

 

[Copperpot]

It makes sense. Take Windwaker, for example. The Link that you play in that game is born centuries after the Link in Ocarina. Hell, you have to take the Master Sword from a stone buried under a statue of the olden 'Hero of Time'.

As for the whole Shiek issue, just leave her be. If she gets in, great. It's not like she's going to play exactly like she did in Melee anyways. For all we know, she could be a low-tier character in Brawl.

 

[TDub301]

Very true, if she does make it in, they'll probably nerf the **** out of her anyway, so maybe it's better for all you Shiek fans that she not come back after all.

 

[Phaazoid]

i never use either zelda or shiek, but i know a friend who is really good with shiek for obvious reasons. i hope shiek is gone so i can laugh at him when he has to get skill to be good.

 

[TDub301]

He could just pick Marth or whoever takes his place, unless they tone him down a lot, still wouldn't need that much skill (or you could get better and beat him regardless of who he picks).

Anyway, I forgot to mention this, but the name of this thread should be changed to "Old Character: Zelda"

 

[Phaazoid]

really, this thread lost most of its meaning.

 

[GameAngel64]

really, this thread lost most of its meaning.

I agree. People, be more excited about the Zelda confirmation! (Yeah, yeah, I'm dreamin').

I'm glad she's in, and in my opinion she looks **** cool, but I hope they beef her up some, or just generally make her more competitive. I think it is neat (because she's my main) and unexpected that they chose to announce her as the first newly confirmed character beyond those who appeared in trailers... Wait a sec, we've gotten to see all of the other characters in at least some kind of action. I hope they post a new trailer soon with Zelda in action, or at least give us an inkling of her moveset. I'm thinking something will be revealed like this by (or at) E3.

 

[Phaazoid]

@gameangel53
yeah, you might want to change the zelda pic in your sig to newer ones. and don't worry, i'll bet the next stage or item or character, they'll put a few screeny's of zelda in with it. i'll bet her moveset is the same though.

 

[DainBramaged]

Zelda looks amazing......and it's wierd....I swear....the new zelda (well, her face) actually looks like a best friend of mine.....just thought I'd randomly point that out.

as for her moveset, I'm really not too concerned....she just needs a bit more speed IMO

 

[Phaazoid]

@dainbramaged
which slow character doesn't need more speed.

 

[DainBramaged]

^^ well, not so much HER but more her MOVES need more speed.....she's too laggy

 

[Katy Parry]

I agree. People, be more excited about the Zelda confirmation! (Yeah, yeah, I'm dreamin').

I'm glad she's in, and in my opinion she looks **** cool, but I hope they beef her up some, or just generally make her more competitive. I think it is neat (because she's my main) and unexpected that they chose to announce her as the first newly confirmed character beyond those who appeared in trailers... Wait a sec, we've gotten to see all of the other characters in at least some kind of action. I hope they post a new trailer soon with Zelda in action, or at least give us an inkling of her moveset. I'm thinking something will be revealed like this by (or at) E3.

She's my main too! Finally, someone who understands. Can't wait to vs. you! Or be on teams! You should join my clan!
On topic:
I'm so happy Zelda was confirmed, without her, I probably wouldn't have considered buying brawl!(I will now, though) I hope they leave her bair, fair, and B moves alone, although Din's Fire should have a burning effect, to where your enemy would still take minor damage(3-5%)for a couple of seconds.

 

[tappy]

I hope they leave her bair, fair, and B moves alone, although Din's Fire should have a burning effect, to where your enemy would still take minor damage(3-5%)for a couple of seconds.

that's a good idea i really want to see her in action like GameAngel said, i just gotta know if she will have at least her arrows since she apparently doesn't have her sword from TP.. i was really hoping for that..

 

[Ricky Zelda]

Zelda looks amazing <3 I love her new look. I am glad she is in the game!

 

[GameAngel64]

@gameangel53
yeah, you might want to change the zelda pic in your sig to newer ones. and don't worry, i'll bet the next stage or item or character, they'll put a few screeny's of zelda in with it. i'll bet her moveset is the same though.

Who's GameAngel53 again? Yeah, my boyfriend has a sig shop on here, and he really wants to make me an updated Zelda sig. I too would really like one, but I'm gonna hold out a little longer in case there are any new screens of her moves posted!

Also... yay! I'm happy to see at least a little Zelda love on here.

 

[Aki-toriko]

I've always liked playing as Zelda, because she's a fun and interesting character to play as. Playing as Sheik just bores me, dash, dash, quick needle storm another dash. Zelda's magic attacks are varied and interesting and she requires a lot of skill to master. All she needs is a quick upgrade to her moves so they are a little more powerful and not so dammed reliant on hitting an opponant dead on.

 

[TDub301]

It's cool that you guys main Zelda and like the new look, shows that you've spent some time on the game. But honestly, who really thought she wouldn't be back? One of the best game franchises in history is her name-sake for God's sake! The only way Zelda will not be in every future smash is if somehow the franchise dies and noone buys Zelda games anymore (do you honestly think that will ever happen?).

Edit: She'll probably have a lot of her old moves, but they're going to try to balance her more so she can compete like some have said, so she'll probably have a few new moves added to the old ones, hopefully she'll be better and worth playing if you don't want to main her.

 

[GameAngel64]

Yeah, like most of us I thought I saw hints in those screens that many of the old moves will be returning. Maybe Zelda's in for sure because of her namesake, like you said, although she was not that popular a character to play in Melee; I figure she's guaranteed to be back again and again mostly for the fact that there are not so many notable female Nintendo characters, so whether she was popular or not they didn't want to give her the axe.

 

[Zone]

Yeah, like most of us I thought I saw hints in those screens that many of the old moves will be returning. Maybe Zelda's in for sure because of her namesake, like you said, although she was not that popular a character to play in Melee; I figure she's guaranteed to be back again and again mostly for the fact that there are not so many notable female Nintendo characters, so whether she was popular or not they didn't want to give her the axe.

Yeah, she wasn't that popular, I don't really know why. When I first picked her up she felt icky to play like hmm.. sorta like I felt she had NO potential at all. Then I continued to play around with her, watched some Videos, (One of them being your Elana Highlights videos), And Then Zelda flashed me with interest randomly. Especially when I underestimated the foot. For a while my friend was too scared to approach Zelda, but he's fought her enough to know how to work around her... **** ><;

If Zelda's melee fighting is back, just make her forward smash not so easy to DI PLEASE!!
Although I hate Zelda's grab I'd have to vote against it being TOO speed up. Space animals would have no hope >.>;

 

[GameAngel64]

Thanks for watching my vid. ^_^

I think her F-Smash was harder to DI in version 1 of SSBM, but I could be wrong.

And, oh boy, I disagree with your comment about Brawl Zelda's grab. That grab has gotta be sped up significantly. It doesn't have to be the fastest grab in the game, but at least sped up enough to be noticeably more effective! Even well-timed grabs with her have too much of a chance to fail. On the other hand, anyone, no matter the character, can avoid getting grabbed, since skill greatly influences whether one gets grabbed or not, so I'm not gonna worry about the space animals.

 

[Zone]

Thanks for watching my vid. ^_^

I think her F-Smash was harder to DI in version 1 of SSBM, but I could be wrong.

And, oh boy, I disagree with your comment about Brawl Zelda's grab. That grab has gotta be sped up significantly. It doesn't have to be the fastest grab in the game, but at least sped up enough to be noticeably more effective! Even well-timed grabs with her have too much of a chance to fail. On the other hand, anyone, no matter the character, can avoid getting grabbed, since skill greatly influences whether one gets grabbed or not, so I'm not gonna worry about the space animals.

lol, yea but our upthrow leads into a Kick. and at like 70% that means death >.>; not to mention they can get chaingrabbed up to around 40% with no problems.

Yea speed up the grab I don't mind. Just don't make it too easy like Marth. If Zelda can grab easily like Marth, We'd have another Chaingrab --> near death scenarios for fast fallers on non-platform matches all over again lol.

Bleh however zelda turns out I hope she's very tournament worthy ^^d

 

[Katy Parry]

lol, yea but our upthrow leads into a Kick. and at like 70% that means death >.>; not to mention they can get chaingrabbed up to around 40% with no problems.

Yea speed up the grab I don't mind. Just don't make it too easy like Marth. If Zelda can grab easily like Marth, We'd have another Chaingrab --> near death scenarios for fast fallers on non-platform matches all over again lol.

Bleh however zelda turns out I hope she's very tournament worthy ^^d

Same here, but i would like Zelda's grab like Marth's....she'd be totally unstoppable. Since you guys main Zelda, I'd be honored to have you join my clan for Brawl. (See below)

And I also watched your video-no need to thank me-thank YOU.

 

[Stryks]

Ethan do u have to advertise ur site every time? no offense its just really whats the point?

Zelda PWNS!

 

[Zone]

Same here, but i would like Zelda's grab like Marth's....she'd be totally unstoppable. Since you guys main Zelda, I'd be honored to have you join my clan for Brawl. (See below)

And I also watched your video-no need to thank me-thank YOU.

who's videos?

 

[Katy Parry]

Calm Down!

Ethan do u have to advertise ur site every time? no offense its just really whats the point?

Zelda PWNS!

Yes, Zelda PWNS! What is your problem?!


@Zone:
GameAngel64's video. Are you on my site? There's some guest who driving me crazy!

 

[Stryks]

Wow one guest, ur site is a hit >.>

Anyway, it seems zeldas moves are intact, but I say her B moves will be the thing being modified, apart of adding speed to her attacks, gotta say she will probably have the light arows, what u guys think?...

 

[Katy Parry]

No...maybe as her fs, but...nayrus love will be her b, since dins fire was confirmed. downB will be transform-watch. And i only have eight members since this forum started two weeks ago, you dont have to be mean about it(even though i laughed)