New ATs?

[JCaesar]

So I was browsing through the thread in the Workshop called "Will there ever be major, non-canon mechanics added to Brawl+?" and even though most of the AT suggestions were crap, I ran across a couple that looked interesting and I believe may actually be viable to add to Brawl+. Just wanted to bring them up in here and see what everyone else thinks.

The first one:

Make invincibility frames lessen for each consecutive ledge grab. Invincibility frames go back to full when you get hit or stand on ground. This would kill ledge camping.

I think this might be a good alternative to limiting the number of ledgegrabs (which I never really liked, it's just not intuitive). Not only would it effectively stop planking, but it would make it take a bit more skill to edgehog someone, since you couldn't just ledgehop repeatedly while waiting for them to recover.

Would this be difficult to program and throw in a nightly? My suggestion would be that invincibility should be gone after 5 ledgegrabs, scaling down evenly between each. We could consider increasing the invincibility length of the first ledgegrab slightly as well.

One thing which would have to go hand in hand with this is better ledge options. It can be difficult to get back on the stage from the ledge when someone is waiting there for you, and this will certainly make it harder. I think ledgejumps, rolls, attacks, and standing up should be just a bit faster.


The second one that caught my eye is crouch-jumping, pressing down+jump to get a higher jump. No charge time, just press down+jump to initiate it, but maybe a slower startup than a normal jump so it doesn't allow "unnatural" followups (or maybe, don't allow the jump to be DIed until a certain height, so it would only allow extra followups when an attack is DIed straight up). It wouldn't be gamebreaking in any way, and I think people would like if we added little things like this.


What do you guys think? I'm wary of adding anything that might have unforeseen consequences, but I think both of these would be pretty safe "ATs" to throw in.

 

[leafgreen386]

Lower ledge invinc each time you grab it without being hit or landing on the ground sounds good to me. Actually, I think something like first two or three times should be full invinc, and then drop each time after that, until you hit 7 ledgegrabs.

I didn't see crouchjumping, but I guess it wouldn't hurt anything. Well... actually, since we have dash canceling, it might lead to some really dumb combos into uair kills by characters that have no right to be going that high. Dunno. It's worth thinking about I guess.

 

[CT Chia]

lowering ledge invincibility will ruin ppl fighting characters great at keeping characters off the stage like MK. an MK can simply dair or dtilt or something u to force u on the ledge x amount of times, and when your out of invincibility, uh oh, stock over.

u cant avoid being forced onto the ledge at times, i dont think we shoudl change invincibility or ledge grab amount. ledge camping is not unbeatable, especially in b+

 

[Shell]

3 full-invlun regrabs and then a drop-off combined with some polished ledge getup options would be a smarter, more interesting and balanced ledge game, in my opinion, compared to what we have now.

 

[CT Chia]

how about slightly decrease ledge invincibility time, though replenish it to max whenever you either
-stand
-are grabbed
-are attacked

that way it only goes down when using for edgeguarding, but when forced on the ledge from being attacked you arent punished

 

[JCaesar]

Invincibility frames go back to full when you get hit or stand on ground.

One thing which would have to go hand in hand with this is better ledge options. It can be difficult to get back on the stage from the ledge when someone is waiting there for you, and this will certainly make it harder. I think ledgejumps, rolls, attacks, and standing up should be just a bit faster.

Chibo you should try reading sometime, it's fun.


I like Leaf's idea of having 2-3 fully invincible ledgegrabs to start.


Oh and whatever happened to reflecting powershields? I thought we pretty much all agreed that this would be a good thing, as long as we can make it difficult to do consistently.

 

[shanus]

I'll look into the programming for power shielding once HAD is done. Its almost done though, so

 

[CT Chia]

Chibo you should try reading sometime, it's fun.

Whoops, I just browsed over that quote. From the first couple words I knew what it was about since I was sort of reading through the workshop thread before. Once I noticed it was the ledge invincibility thing I just continued on to read your comment on it.

edit: powershieding is 2 frames atm right? what if u keep standard powershielding at 2 frames and a reflecting powershield at 1 frame?

as stupid of an idea it sounds, the only original thing I can think of would be like a roll fake out, where when you roll if you hit the opposite direction on the analog stick it cancels the roll and does a full roll in the opposite direction. you cant roll fake a roll fake though, and maybe the speed could be at like 80% for the 2nd roll. this would give more options for getting out of tech chases like snakes dthrow and things like that.

Like say ---------- 10 dashes is a full roll
rolling left then faking right would make you go 5 dashes left at full speed then 10 dashes right at 80% speed

 

[JCaesar]

That's not a stupid idea Chibo, it sounds pretty interesting.

 

[Veril]

These ideas are pretty cool. I wonder what effect the roll fakeout would have on glide tossing...

I really like:
-Powershield reflecting with a 1 frame window
-decay on inv frames after the 2nd ledgegrab. Reset by touching ground, being hit, or being grabbed. This basically kills planking.
-roll fakeouts at reduced speed.

 

[Shell]

Tech chasing has enough options to it as is, in my opinion.

 

[CT Chia]

i dont think ud be able to roll fake a glide toss since when gliding ur in the standing animation, not the rolling animation. however i think u would prob be able to GT a roll fake, as in roll, fake it, then GT the fake

 

[g-regulate]

I disagree with everything here.

I hate feeling like i have to relearn a brand new game every version that comes out. It's when we start adding "cool" stuff that we ruin the game!

 

[Dantarion]

You posted this in the other thread as well.
If "new" or "different" = "cool"....ok?

 

[g-regulate]

I've always felt that just adding hitstun, l-canceling, running momentum, and taking away auto-ledgegrabbing and various other grab-release and chaingrab combos would be PLENTY enough to balance the game.

Instead of just being happy with that, we HAVE to make falcos shine pop them up. We HAVE to make fox jump-cancel shine. We HAVE to make DDDs hammer trip ANYONE STANDING ON THE STAGE. and, in stride, we had to change almost EVERYTHING about ness and now he's a problem. Why? When you add one thing to one character, what's gonna stop people from changing EVERYONE? and who will draw the line?!? When will it END?!?!

It won't, because adding 1 thing to a character can CHANGE THE ENTIRE METAGAME, and then you guys will just add something else to fix that "problem". I've noticed a lot of characters can do moves quicker than they usually can (snake fair, DDD dair). That is a MAJOR CHANGE! Not because the character needed it, just because we "thought it would be cool". We don't HAVE to make everyone's moves viable, that's not our job.

Is anyone else feeling me on this? I feel like just adding the changes i listed in the first paragraph make it the purest version of brawl plus, because there is no individual tampering of certain characters (except to eliminate infinites and grab-release).

I feel that changing a character should be purely based on FACTS that a character is severely disadvantaged in some way. So far I don't see ANY characters needing that kind of help (except maybe ivysaur rofl), nor have i seen any proof to lead to any of the changes that have been made.

 

[Dantarion]

Most of this thread is about universal AT's that all characters would be able to use.
Also, the things you listed HARDLY helped balance the game, in fact, they just enabled different characters to excel. Without character specific tweaks, many characters would be just as bad in Brawl+ as the low tiers in vBrawl.

Sure, theres are some "cool" things that have been added, but I have yet to see any that are so negative that they destroy the game. Sure, maybe Ness got overbuffed a bit (I remember Simna's Ness build back from Genesis) but its not the end of the world.

Half of the fun of working on Brawl+ and playing it is that it evolves, and something that is overbuffed can actually be nerfed later to find a perfect balance, instead of having to commit to trying to obtain perfection the first time.

Anyways, I want ledge canceled aerials, my ledgetech, and footstool button stuff in the next build.
And I want to experiement with canceling a smash attack charge into a dash or roll, a-la SF4 focus attack :D

 

[JCaesar]

I've always felt that just adding hitstun, l-canceling, running momentum, and taking away auto-ledgegrabbing and various other grab-release and chaingrab combos would be PLENTY enough to balance the game.

Brawl+ would be dreadfully dull and unbalanced if that was all we did. I'm sorry Greg but I just can't agree with the ultra-conservative method. Sure we've overdone it a few times, but we've also made this game a lot deeper, more varied, and more balanced than it would have been with just those basic changes.

I don't want this to turn into Brawl or Melee, where only a handful of characters can win tournaments. I want every character to have a legit shot.

 

[Magus420]

The current PS window is 1 frame btw not 2.

One thing which would have to go hand in hand with this is better ledge options. It can be difficult to get back on the stage from the ledge when someone is waiting there for you, and this will certainly make it harder. I think ledgejumps, rolls, attacks, and standing up should be just a bit faster.

An idea that came up before that I like for the ledge options instead of simply speeding them up was to give the option of performing either the <100% or 100%+ damage getups with different inputs instead of being based on damage, and adjust them as needed to each have their own uses and advantages/disadvantages.

As an example, I was talking to Cape and came up with the idea to speed up the quick ledge stand a decent amount but with a bit less invincibility, and slow down the slow ledge stand a good amount during the part before you get up and onto the stage to give it increased edge possession abilities, but laggy so that if they get around your edgehog attempt you're left quite open for punishment.

I was thinking maybe have it always go into the slow stand up by default, and around frame 3 of that if you're holding full forwards or close to it you switch into the fast ledgestand. That way if you tilt forward or up you get the slow getup, and smash forward you do the fast stand (smash up would do the jump like it normally does).

Could maybe make one of the ledge jumps a short but more vulnerable jump if you release jump/up.

The getup attacks already have a pretty good general concept behind them with almost all fast ones being vulnerable when the attack comes out, while the slower ones are protected with invincibility when they start hitting.

Don't know about rolls. Simply having a long and short length roll could likely give too much power/too many options to the person on the edge. Might be ok if the long one had very little invincibility though so it can be punished while also going for covering other getup options.


Here's the ledge getup data I collected the other day:

*************************
-------------------------
......LEDGE GETUPS.......
-------------------------
*************************

* indicates an IASA is used for the listed total duration


*********************
Ledge Getup (Attack)
*********************
                         --QUICK (ATTACK)--
--------------------------------|-------------|-----------------
Character           Default     | Frame Speed |       New
                Tot  Inv   Hit  |             | Tot  Inv   Hit
--------------------------------|-------------|-----------------
Bowser          54   1-4   8-17 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Captain Falcon  54*  1-22 24-28 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Charizard       55*  1-23 25-26 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Diddy Kong      55   1-26 28-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Donkey Kong     54   1-7   9-16 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Falco           54   1-23 25-32 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Fox             54*  1-23 25-32 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Game & Watch    55   1-21 24-28 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Ganondorf       54   1-22 24-28 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Ice Climbers    54   1-25 27-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Ike             55   1-21 23-25 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Ivysaur         55   1-22 24-26 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Jigglypuff      55   1-19 21-25 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
King Dedede     55   1-22 24-26 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Kirby           55   1-18 20-23 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Link            55   1-25 27-29 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Lucario         55   1-15 17-19 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Lucas           55   1-26 24-26 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Luigi           55   1-20 24-26 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Mario           55   1-20 24-26 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Marth           54   1-24 24-27 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Metaknight      55   1-23 25-28 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Ness            55   1-22 24-26 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Olimar          55   1-15 17-23 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Peach           54   1-8  10-16 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Pikachu         53   1-20 22-24 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Pit             55   1-23 25-29 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
R.O.B           55   1-23 25-27 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Samus           55   1-23 25-28 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Sheik           54*  1-23 25-34 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Snake           55   1-21 25-27 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Sonic           55*  1-22 24-32 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Squirtle        55   1-26 28-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Toon Link       55   1-25 27-29 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Wario           55   1-29 31-33 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Wolf            54*  1-23 25-32 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Yoshi           55   1-18 20-24 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Zelda           53   1-25 27-32 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Zero Suit Samus 55   1-17 19-21 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx

                          --SLOW (ATTACK)--
--------------------------------|-------------|-----------------
Character           Default     | Frame Speed |       New
                Tot  Inv   Hit  |             | Tot  Inv   Hit
--------------------------------|-------------|-----------------
Bowser          69   1-50 46-50 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Captain Falcon  68   1-42 39-42 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Charizard       69   1-32 30-32 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Diddy Kong      69   1-54 50-54 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Donkey Kong     69   1-41 38-41 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Falco           69   1-58 56-58 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Fox             69*  1-58 56-58 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Game & Watch    69   1-59 55-59 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Ganondorf       68   1-40 37-40 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Ice Climbers    69   1-42 39-42 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Ike             69   1-43 41-43 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Ivysaur         59   1-32 29-39 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Jigglypuff      69   1-49 43-49 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
King Dedede     69   1-51 47-51 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Kirby           69   1-47 43-52 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Link            69   1-54 51-54 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Lucario         69   1-38 35-38 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Lucas           69   1-41 40-44 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Luigi           69   1-44 40-44 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Mario           69   1-44 40-44 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Marth           69*  1-47 44-47 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Metaknight      69   1-42 39-42 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Ness            69   1-43 39-43 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Olimar          69   1-43 39-43 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Peach           69   1-47 44-47 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Pikachu         69   1-59 55-59 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Pit             69   1-42 38-42 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
R.O.B           69   1-44 40-44 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Samus           68   1-41 38-41 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Sheik           69*  1-59 57-59 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Snake           69   1-43 41-43 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Sonic           69   1-44 Note1 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Squirtle        69   1-44 40-44 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Toon Link       69   1-54 51-54 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Wario           69   1-55 53-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Wolf            69*  1-58 56-58 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Yoshi           69   1-38 34-38 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Zelda           69   1-37 34-37 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx
Zero Suit Samus 69   1-57 53-57 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx-xx

Note 1: Hits on 41-44; 50-51



********************
Ledge Getup (Stand)
********************
                   --QUICK (STAND)--
--------------------------|-------------|-----------
Character        Default  | Frame Speed |    New
                Tot  Inv  |             | Tot  Inv
--------------------------|-------------|-----------
Bowser          32   1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Captain Falcon  32*  1-22 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Charizard       34*  1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Diddy Kong      34   1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Donkey Kong     34   1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Falco           34   1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Fox             34   1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Game & Watch    34   1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Ganondorf       33   1-22 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Ice Climbers    34   1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Ike             34   1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Ivysaur         34   1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Jigglypuff      34   1-31 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
King Dedede     34   1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Kirby           33   1-31 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Link            34   1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Lucario         34   1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Lucas           34   1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Luigi           34   1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Mario           34   1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Marth           32*  1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Metaknight      34   1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Ness            34   1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Olimar          34   1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Peach           32   1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Pikachu         32   1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Pit             34   1-26 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
R.O.B           34   1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Samus           32   1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Sheik           34*  1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Snake           34   1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Sonic           34*  1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Squirtle        34   1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Toon Link       34   1-31 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Wario           34   1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Wolf            34   1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Yoshi           33   1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Zelda           33*  1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Zero Suit Samus 34   1-30 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx

                    --SLOW (STAND)--
--------------------------|-------------|-----------
Character        Default  | Frame Speed |    New
                Tot  Inv  |             | Tot  Inv
--------------------------|-------------|-----------
Bowser          59   1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Captain Falcon  58   1-49 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Charizard       59   1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Diddy Kong      59   1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Donkey Kong     59   1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Falco           59   1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Fox             59   1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Game & Watch    59   1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Ganondorf       58   1-49 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Ice Climbers    59   1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Ike             59   1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Ivysaur         59   1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Jigglypuff      59   1-56 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
King Dedede     59   1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Kirby           59   1-56 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Link            59   1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Lucario         59   1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Lucas           59   1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Luigi           59   1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Mario           59   1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Marth           59*  1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Metaknight      59   1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Ness            59   1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Olimar          59   1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Peach           59   1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Pikachu         59   1-56 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Pit             59   1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
R.O.B           59   1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Samus           59   1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Sheik           59*  1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Snake           59   1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Sonic           59   1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Squirtle        59   1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Toon Link       59   1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Wario           59   1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Wolf            59   1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Yoshi           59   1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Zelda           59   1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx
Zero Suit Samus 59   1-55 | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx



*******************
Ledge Getup (Roll)
*******************
                         --QUICK (ROLL)--
--------------------------------|-------------|------------------
Character           Default     | Frame Speed |       New
                Tot  Inv  Length|             | Tot  Inv  Length
--------------------------------|-------------|------------------
Bowser          49   1-18 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Captain Falcon  48*  1-23 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Charizard       49   1-25 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Diddy Kong      49   1-31 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Donkey Kong     49   1-18 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Falco           49   1-36 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Fox             49*  1-35 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Game & Watch    49   1-27 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Ganondorf       48   1-25 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Ice Climbers    49   1-30 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Ike             49   1-30 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Ivysaur         49   1-29 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Jigglypuff      49   1-32 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
King Dedede     49   1-33 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Kirby           59   1-32 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Link            49   1-25 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Lucario         49*  1-30 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Lucas           49   1-26 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Luigi           49   1-30 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Mario           49   1-30 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Marth           49   1-26 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Metaknight      49   1-31 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Ness            49   1-27 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Olimar          49   1-29 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Peach           50   1-31 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Pikachu         49   1-24 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Pit             49   1-27 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
R.O.B           49   1-29 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Samus           48   1-22 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Sheik           49*  1-37 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Snake           49   1-27 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Sonic           49   1-31 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Squirtle        49   1-29 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Toon Link       49   1-27 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Wario           49   1-27 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Wolf            49*  1-34 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Yoshi           49   1-22 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Zelda           50   1-29 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Zero Suit Samus 49   1-23 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx

                          --SLOW (ROLL)--
--------------------------------|-------------|------------------
Character           Default     | Frame Speed |       New
                Tot  Inv  Length|             | Tot  Inv  Length
--------------------------------|-------------|------------------
Bowser          79   1-50 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Captain Falcon  78   1-50 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Charizard       79   1-49 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Diddy Kong      79   1-65 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Donkey Kong     79   1-51 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Falco           79   1-63 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Fox             79   1-62 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Game & Watch    79   1-60 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Ganondorf       78   1-60 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Ice Climbers    79   1-52 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Ike             79   1-56 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Ivysaur         79   1-61 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Jigglypuff      79   1-51 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
King Dedede     79   1-64 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Kirby           79   1-50 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Link            79   1-63 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Lucario         79   1-65 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Lucas           79   1-57 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Luigi           79   1-54 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Mario           79   1-54 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Marth           79*  1-57 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Metaknight      79   1-62 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Ness            79   1-56 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Olimar          79   1-65 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Peach           79   1-57 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Pikachu         79   1-60 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Pit             79   1-50 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
R.O.B           79   1-58 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Samus           78   1-46 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Sheik           79*  1-70 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Snake           79   1-56 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Sonic           79   1-59 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Squirtle        79   1-62 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Toon Link       79   1-62 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Wario           79   1-56 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Wolf            79   1-61 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Yoshi           79   1-60 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Zelda           79   1-52 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx
Zero Suit Samus 79   1-66 xx.xx | -.---x @ xx | xx   1-xx xx.xx

 

[JCaesar]

It would probably take some practice, but I like the idea of having more options from the ledge.

 

[leafgreen386]

I suggested that a while ago, and I still think it's a good idea that would really open up the ledge game. The main problem would be getting it to work in the code.

As for exactly what we'd be trying to get work... I actually think reassigning the special button when on the ledge to be the "switch" between the two sets of getups (instead of just another attack button as it is now) would be best. Make the default getup the fast one, and if someone wants to use the slow getup (which they will if we do this right), all they have to do is press B and then use the getup option.

 

[Shell]

Switching seems less intuitive than just having one option mapped to each 'A' and 'B.'

 

[shanus]

I would rather have ledgejumps become more useful as a mix up between ledgedrops than to greatly alter the get-up scheme.

 

[Dantarion]

<offtopic> I want to see a character with a ledgejump that pulls themm way offstage.

Anyways, making it possible to do the slow ledge attack even when under 100% sounds like fun.

 

[leafgreen386]

Switching seems less intuitive than just having one option mapped to each 'A' and 'B.'

The problem is then you also have fast and slow standing getups, as well as fast and slow getup rolls. You could technically resolve the standing problem with the smash/tilt system magus mentioned, but you can't solve the roll problem this way, since not everyone uses L and R as their shield buttons.

 

[Magus420]

What's wrong with holding shield for one roll type and tap shield for the other similar to the stand getups? Same with jump. Attacks might be better with A button for one and B for the other though, but doing tap A/B or hold A/B would be more consistent with the others.

 

[leafgreen386]

I don't really like that method, since the animations differ from very early on, and having to hold/tap shield for the rolls might be be kinda awkward, especially with the way the shoulder buttons act in brawl. If there isn't a very large amount of time you have to hold the button for, I'd think that people would end up doing the long ledgerolls a lot by accident. Like, it's one thing to tap a button, but leaving a trigger pressed for only a couple frames is a lot less natural of a motion.

 

[GHNeko]

Shield Counter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zt_v8nS6so

 

[shanus]

I think shield counter is silly.

I tihkn Rebound counter would be far more suiting. (Rebound = the ID for when characters attacks clash)

Either way, not a fan lol

 

[GHNeko]

I think its interesting. Adds something completely new and since its being made from scratch, it can be balanced in pretty much anyway we see fit.

 

[Shell]

PS is enough of a counter system for my tastes. If you were deparate you could increase the hitlag someone recieves from hitting a perfect shield, but I think it's a decent system already. Defensive options are at least equal to offensive if not more powerful right now, so I'm not really inclined to buff them.

 

[shanus]

I think its interesting. Adds something completely new and since its being made from scratch, it can be balanced in pretty much anyway we see fit.

Until you shield counter shield counter shield counter INFINITE

 

[JCaesar]

VETO!

Can I veto?

lrn2powershield

 

[GHNeko]

I think offensive has an edge of defense atm. there are some characters that can provide an acception to this though, but overall offense > defense

i see this as a new mechanic exclusive to B+. Everything we've added as been from a past game. This is something completely new. I'd like to see this in at least a single set to see how it flows with the game.

It has nothing to do with learning to knowing to powershield or knowing how to not power shield. It'd have its pros and cons over it as well.

 

[JCaesar]

If you powershield correctly, you get a free counterattack. If you screw up, you get punished.

It's the same thing as shield counter, except it's more intuitive, easier to pick up (because it's been in Smash forever), and more flexible with which counterattack you want to use.

Shield counter is unnecessary.

 

[Magus420]

I'd still like it if the PS window for non-projectiles were somehow able to be 2 or maybe 3 frames in the case of large characters without decent shield disjoints instead of 1 like it is currently for both (something using character IDs to differentiate them?). Also have it so you only can PS if your shield came up during a shield button 'press' and not shield button 'pressed' (no "buffered/accidental" PSing). It's not nearly as usable on non-projectiles as I feel it should be, and unless they do something horribly obvious like flying into you with a n-air from far away it's generally not worth attempting over a better option, especially on characters that don't have heavily disjointed shielding areas. Even without the reduction in shieldstun and no shield pushback on a PS in Melee, I find physical PSing more applicable there since it's usable on a larger variety of attacks.

 

[leafgreen386]

Hm... the weird thing is I'm pretty sure the "buffered" PSs were also possible in melee. I remember one time when I firefox'd above the stage and ff'd down. I was holding the shield button the whole time while falling, but as I was coming out of landlag, I got a shield up and PS'd the fsmash tipper that was about to hit me, instead of just using a regular shield. I think the main reason we see it happen so much more often in brawl is because there's only one shield size, so you don't need to be hard shielding in order to get a PS.

 

[Magus420]

The 'GUARDREFLECT' or whatever it's called action is only activated on button press in melee. You must have not been pressing it in all the way until you landed or something.

 

[Yeroc]

Is that why it's easier to PS when you don't have springs?

 

[leafgreen386]

The 'GUARDREFLECT' or whatever it's called action is only activated on button press in melee. You must have not been pressing it in all the way until you landed or something.

Hm... k. Probably.