[Nesu] It's so deserted here I could find Criminal Caterpillars. (Post here if you're cool)

[Susi]

DDD is worse than Marth.

And the chart is accurate enough imo. DK is much worse than those listed -2. The MU would be even without the infinite I think. And the infinite isnt like ICs. You cant like separate DKs hands to make him not able to infinite. xD

And -1 doesnt mean its exactly as bad as other -1's.

 

[Luco]

DDD is worse than Marth.

And the chart is accurate enough imo. DK is much worse than those listed -2. The MU would be even without the infinite I think. And the infinite isnt like ICs. You cant like separate DKs hands to make him not able to infinite. xD

And -1 doesnt mean its exactly as bad as other -1's.

Well yea without the infinite I also reckon the MU would literally be like -1 or 0.

But infinites by themselves do not make an MU change from 0/-1 to -3. From the personal experience i've had with this MU, it's really not that bad if you don't get grabbed. From my experience it's not -3 material so I don't know what prompted the change tbh. >.<

 

[Reckless4Christ]

I typed up a wall of text and then realized Luco was referring to DK not D3 lol. So nvm...

 

[Z'zgashi]

No, DK completely destroys Ness, that MU is awful for him. DK has the superior range, mobility, hes way heavier, he wins trades (or at the least goes even which is winning since he lives longer), has better KO options, has better pressure, a better recovery (both are bad, but DK's is better AND DK has a MUCH better ledge game), then to top it all off, DK has an infinite on Ness. Marth MIGHT be worse than DK, but DK after that, not even D3 is as bad. D3 at least has **** mobility so you can keep away and poke, DK, much like Marth, can get in your face and Ness cant really escape.

 

[Kokomaniac]

Hey so a bunch of Luhe cryptic E Trojans infected all my stuff on my computer left and right and my avg resident shield picked up all of them and got rid of them, only problem is it removed like fifty over around half an hour of time so I just d/c'd my Internet and later shut off my computer because I couldn't deal with it anymore. I was running avg and malware bytes anti malware scan the whole time but came up with nothing because resident shield found them first. What do?

 

[Luco]

No, DK completely destroys Ness, that MU is awful for him. DK has the superior range, mobility, hes way heavier, he wins trades (or at the least goes even which is winning since he lives longer), has better KO options, has better pressure, a better recovery (both are bad, but DK's is better AND DK has a MUCH better ledge game), then to top it all off, DK has an infinite on Ness. Marth MIGHT be worse than DK, but DK after that, not even D3 is as bad. D3 at least has **** mobility so you can keep away and poke, DK, much like Marth, can get in your face and Ness cant really escape.

DK is not more mobile than Ness, or if so not by much. In fact, in terms of base aerial mobility, Ness trumps DK. In terms of ground speed, DK wins but Ness isn't going to be grounded much in this MU.

(Source: http://www.smashboards.com/threads/internal-character-mechanics-values.244329/)

DK's Bair is punishable on shield unless he auto-cancels it on landing, which only happens in between frames 1-6 or on frame 31. Fair being an extended hitbox means that DK now has to time his Bair too, which is practically disadvantageous. On the ground you can space retreating Fairs or, like i've done a few times, you can go randomly aggro. You can rack up a ton of damage on DK offstage and if his Bair can be punished then his pressure game isn't that fantastic. On ground DK is a total beast but as I said, we don't plan to stay grounded. I was doing this to the best DK in australia (I know, australia - but still) and doing fine. The infinite makes this MU hard but not -3 material IMO.

I'm actually not quite sure on Fairs and a DK grab but I know Ness can space Fairs so that he can't be punished by a buffered falco dash attack...

 

[Z'zgashi]

From your own source (which is the source I was using):
Ground Speed
13. Donkey Kong (1.62)
26. Ness (1.39)

Dash Speed
12. Donkey Kong (1.60)
29. Ness (1.30)

Walk Speed
12. Donkey Kong (1.20)
29. Ness (0.86)

Air Speed
7. Donkey Kong (1.08)
18. Ness (0.96)

DK > Ness in Mobility... Easily lol... Like, how did you think otherwise lol... DK is literally halfway higher up the list or better in all the important areas. In fact, quite literally the ONLY THINGS Ness is faster than DK at is Ness is 0.01 units faster moving forward while fast falling, and 0.04 units faster changing direction in the air. Those differences are almost nothing, especially since double jumping instantly negates those disadvantages completely, meaning if SOMEHOW Ness were to get that 0.04 advantage on DK, DK could just double jump and instantly get a 0.12 advantage.

And as for bair, its safe on shield if spaced and done right, and good DKs do that ALL DAY so its not like they dont know how to space it. Also, DK's bair TRADES WITH NESS' FAIR, THATS RIGHT, IT TRADES. The ONLY WAY Ness can make his fair safe is to fall and retreat with it, which requires him to first jump (and a jumping retreating fair is NOT safe) AND have space to begin with, which DK shouldnt allow since he should be up there. And even if you do trade, ALL of DK's damage comes out in one hit, while Ness' damage is spread through like, 4ish hits, meaning DK wins that trade SUPER easily. And a spaced fair CAN be punished by DK's power shield > bair and power shield > ftilt.

Literally DK just needs to space bairs all game. You cant go in on DK or he'll just destroy you out of shield with his fantastic OoS options (nair, bair, uair, grab, utilt, ftilt, punch, LOTS of options that cover every angle) and if you try and play keep away, DK will happily trade his bairs with Ness' fairs all day (even if Ness does retreating fair, if DK follows it in the air he can then bair, or he can just keep pushing Ness to the ledge where he then can force Ness to the ledge, which is NOT a good place for Ness). Even with platforms, if DK stays low, Ness is then in danger of uairs as well, so going to somewhere like BF so you dont get pushed to the ledge barely helps.

Whatever DKs youre playing dont know the MU, its literally just a spacing game where DK has no reason to lose any exchanges since he is never put into a true defensive position aside from being offstage, but good luck getting him offstage, cuz remember, DK will at least trade, win, or go back to neutral in almost every trade, while also having a infinite at the ready to punish any mistakes or aggressive play.

 

[Screk]

MU's Serious bidnessss

 

[Luco]

From your own source (which is the source I was using):
Ground Speed
13. Donkey Kong (1.62)
26. Ness (1.39)

Dash Speed
12. Donkey Kong (1.60)
29. Ness (1.30)

Walk Speed
12. Donkey Kong (1.20)
29. Ness (0.86)

Air Speed
7. Donkey Kong (1.08)
18. Ness (0.96)

DK > Ness in Mobility... Easily lol... Like, how did you think otherwise lol... DK is literally halfway higher up the list or better in all the important areas. In fact, quite literally the ONLY THINGS Ness is faster than DK at is Ness is 0.01 units faster moving forward while fast falling, and 0.04 units faster changing direction in the air. Those differences are almost nothing.

And as for bair, its safe on shield if spaced and done right, and good DKs do that ALL DAY so its not like they dont know how to space it. Also, DK's bair TRADES WITH NESS' FAIR, THATS RIGHT, IT TRADES, and ALL of DK's damage comes out in one hit, while Ness' damage is spread through like, 4ish hits, meaning DK wins that trade SUPER easily. And a spaced fair CAN be punished by DK's power shield > bair.

Literally DK just needs to space bairs all game and have a punch charged so that if he grabs you he can gr cg to punch. You cant go in on DK or he'll just destroy you out of shield with his fantastic OoS options (nair, bair, uair, grab, utilt, ftilt, punch, LOTS of options that cover every angle) and if you try and play keep away, DK will happily trade his bairs with Ness' fairs all day (even if Ness does retreating fair, if DK follows it in the air he can then bair, or he can just keep pushing Ness to the ledge where he then can force Ness to the ledge, which is NOT a good place for Ness). Even with platforms, if DK stays low, Ness is then in danger of uairs as well, so going to somewhere like BF so you dont get pushed to the ledge barely helps.

Whatever DKs youre playing dont know the MU, its literally just a spacing game that DK has no reason to lose any exchanges since he is never put into a true defensive position aside from being offstage, but good luck getting him offstage, cuz remember, DK will at least trade, win, or go back to neutral in almost every trade, while also having a infinite at the ready to punish any mistakes or aggressive play.

*cough* first of all, walk speed isn't going to be useful in this MU. Second, Air speed is not the same as base aerial mobility. In terms of base aerial mobility, if you look, you will find that under that same heading Ness definitely wins. Finally, it's not like Ness doesn't have some good OoS options himself.

So if Ness can get away the MU becomes a ton easier.

Look i'm not going to argue it's even or even -1. The infinite is stupid. I don't believe it's -3 material though. -2 sounds fine to me. If we can run away and mess with him off-stage, if we can defend ourselves at least partially and play near the ledge, then no I don't believe the MU is -3.

As it happened I tried aggressive play when versing this player and it worked very well. Sometimes aggressive play completely throws people off their guard, in which case it's not a totally null option.

 

[Tikao]

aggressive play is very risky in this MU
it CAN throw someone of their guard, but it can also lead into a (shield)grab (which leads into losing this stock)
is there anything in this MU, which forces us to approach? retreating fairs against his bairs and dk's pressure game isn't that awesome anymore
so on range he loses
but recking up damage is not that easy in this MU and dk will be hard to ko because of his weight
everytime we go close, we risk getting grabbed but most of Ness' moves are shortranged, so this is the problem here
also grabbing dk is risky, because if we miss the grab, we can get grabbed
this makes dashgrabs for approaching very risky
so we should stay away and find the "right moment" to go in
dk is still way easier than marf (even if his grabreleases aren't an infinite)
the rating system makes it look like they're the same

 

[Z'zgashi]

Air speed is not the same as base aerial mobility. In terms of base aerial mobility, if you look, you will find that under that same heading Ness definitely wins.

I dont think you know what Air mobility is... lol. Its how fast you can change direction in mid air. DK isnt going to be changing direction, Ness will be, but DK will be going forward or straight up then down in whatver direction, meaning DK will outspeed Ness. Like I said in my post, Ness DOES have the air 'mobility', but DK moves through the air faster and doesnt need to change direction against Ness. Plus, double jumps instantly put you at max air speed in the direction of your choice and override 'air mobility' so, like I said before, if DK absolutely NEEDS to turn around, he can just double jump, or even just b reverse a punch or something if hes that desperate for some reason.

And as for Ness' OoS options, theyre good, yes, but they wont be helpful against DK that much since he'll just be spacing bairs and nothing of Ness' OoS can punish that.

And Ness cant get away, thats why its bad loool

And its DEFINITELY -3, its worse than D3, no contest.

And like I said before, that DK obviously had no idea how to play the MU if going aggro was beating him... Aggro Ness DOES NOT WORK WHATSOEVER against a good, knowledgeable DK.

And @Tikao: Marth is harder, but not by that much. I mean, honestly, think about it, theyre very similar; Marth fair is just like DK bair, they both have the GR CG, and they both outspeed, out-prioritize, both have fantastic OoS options, etc. The only reason Marth is harder is because hes EVEN FASTER than DK, he has dancing blade and dolphin slash, and his recovery is safer. DK is still really bad for Ness.

 

[Tikao]

marfs fair is WAAAAY better against ness than dk's bair
marfs fair goes through our fair/retreating fair, dk's bair doesn't
even without the GR, Marf would be a -3

 

[yoshi8984]

As I said before, I played against DK the other day for an online tourney, I got 3-stocked, and I went WAY too aggro, and: http://www.twitch.tv/supergirlkels/b/430455499
(go to like 2:11:10 - 2:14:25, that's just the match with DK but then he switched to Samus then Luigi lol)

Now that I look back, I had WAY more opportunities for PK Fire and I should've been using more of my Yo-yos. Was also Dairing too much and not enough Nair OoS lol
And yes, I know I lack MU exp, but I'm young and don't get to travel much. This was also my first time facing a DK LMAO
And yeah, I know he screwed up the infinite, but still.

I think I see why it went back to -3.

 

[Susi]

even without the GR, Marf would be a -3

No.

 

[Screk]

Just going to say my little bit here. All this talk about MU's doesn't really matter at this point imo. Due to the fact that most people play the match up the way they see fit. Again my opinion on it.

 

[Kokomaniac]

I think playstyles of two people have a lot to do with how well a matchup is gonna be for either character which is why I regard them largely as loose guidelines.

 

[Luco]

No.

Actually it's pretty true. I've faced plenty of marths that don't CG and that MU is still stupid. =C

I dont think you know what Air mobility is... lol. Its how fast you can change direction in mid air. DK isnt going to be changing direction, Ness will be, but DK will be going forward or straight up then down in whatver direction, meaning DK will outspeed Ness. Like I said in my post, Ness DOES have the air 'mobility', but DK moves through the air faster and doesnt need to change direction against Ness. Plus, double jumps instantly put you at max air speed in the direction of your choice and override 'air mobility' so, like I said before, if DK absolutely NEEDS to turn around, he can just double jump, or even just b reverse a punch or something if hes that desperate for some reason.

And as for Ness' OoS options, theyre good, yes, but they wont be helpful against DK that much since he'll just be spacing bairs and nothing of Ness' OoS can punish that.

And Ness cant get away, thats why its bad loool

And its DEFINITELY -3, its worse than D3, no contest.

And like I said before, that DK obviously had no idea how to play the MU if going aggro was beating him... Aggro Ness DOES NOT WORK WHATSOEVER against a good, knowledgeable DK.

And @Tikao: Marth is harder, but not by that much. I mean, honestly, think about it, theyre very similar; Marth fair is just like DK bair, they both have the GR CG, and they both outspeed, out-prioritize, both have fantastic OoS options, etc. The only reason Marth is harder is because hes EVEN FASTER than DK, he has dancing blade and dolphin slash, and his recovery is safer. DK is still really bad for Ness.

Sorry, yes, you're right on mobility.

But like for everything else... okay, I can see this isn't going to come to a conclusion through our respective working out.

So then we should turn to results. When was this MU last played at a high level? As far as I can see there's no evidence in that regard for this to be a -3 and even at low level the MU seems to be doable whereas at low level a marth MU is pretty... yeah. =/

I just mean, there's not much of a precedent for it. What if it's like the Ness - MK MU, which most Nesses and even MKs will agree is a total -1. The MU actually looks pretty bad on paper but doesn't end up playing out that way.

Like, I grant you have good points. But where's a recent match of Shaky vs. Will or something similar?

 

[Z'zgashi]

As someone who visits Vegas a lot, I saw Zombe (a Vegas DK) take a game off FOW's Ness then FOW switched to MK and destroyed Zombe, and FOW >>>>>>>>>> Zombe in skill.

 

[Luco]

As someone who visits Vegas a lot, I saw Zombe (a Vegas DK) take a game off FOW's Ness then FOW switched to MK and destroyed Zombe, and FOW >>>>>>>>>> Zombe in skill.

FOW doesn't main Ness anymore though. =/

Granted he's a top level player and he used to use him - can you give me specifics? How close was the game? Did FOW seem nervous or rusty? How long ago was this too?

 

[Z'zgashi]

FOW is never nervous (LOL at the thought of him being nervous) and I doubt he was rusty, he didnt look like it. Overall though, the game was close, like DK on last stock 90%ish at the end. Then FOW went MK and double 3 stocked him LOL.

 

[Luco]

Yeah but MK's silly.

How long ago was this? I still don't think the MU is -3 despite everything but at least now I can see why people are calling it thus.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I cant remember if it was last time I went down there or the time before, so like, 6 months to a year ago or so.

 

[Kokomaniac]

I can see the MU being -3 most of the time. Any amount of spacing with bair will turn the matchup into a DDD like matchup except DK iirc can be even more hard hitting and with an even more punishing grab. It does depend how you play it though, I suppose if you can catch some pk fires and stay away it would be less awful

 

[Z'zgashi]

DK's ftilt, bair, and jab (and other stuff but those are the best options) will stop PK fires btw. Also, it is a lot like D3, only DK gets more out of a grab AND has waaaaaay more mobility. D3 has a better grab range, but thats it really. DK > D3 in this MU by far.[

EDIT: Well I guess D3 has Waddle Dees too, but aside from lucky Gordos at the right moments, its not that helpful in the MU (Ness' fair destroys Waddle Dees).

 

[Kokomaniac]

Still an active pk fire is useful. And aerial pk fires is more what I was thinking of here

 

[Screk]

Just throwing this out there FOW said he still loves Ness and is a Ness main but right now he wants to be the best MK in his scene. Something like that

(said this on a live stream mind you)

 

[yoshi8984]

So, I'm going to a tourney tomorrow!! :D

 

[Kokomaniac]

Glhf mang :D

 

[yoshi8984]

Ok so technically my tourney happened on Saturday, but I didn't have time to post about it so I'll talk about it now. =P

So I got 9/17th this time, which is like my best record this far. XD

I had a WONDERFUL time there!! :D
_____________
So, my sister drops me off (not directly in front of the place, so I had to walk lol), and when I walked there, I saw Kels walking in as well!

I pay the venue fee, enter, and boy was I glad to meet Kels for the first time IRL! I did a wi-fi match with her a few days before the tourney, and it was fun and hilarious. So we were just talking, and I learned that Doubles were just finishing. =P

So as the Doubles were finishing, I ended up playing Tarex for a friendly, and his Yoshi is still good (and annoying as hell LMAO) as ever. Dealing with Yoshi is still something I need to work on.
Then he switched to Link, and I got a wacky PKT2 on him. Was pretty cool. But then I got killed seconds after he came back from an F-Smash LOL
And then I ended up failing my PKT2 recovery even though I had like a 20-30% lead on him (we both had 1 stock left lol). And I was thinking like "Oh boy, my inability to maintain a lead is going to be my downfall..." .__.

Then registration for Singles begun, and there was a bit of time for a few friendlies, so me, Kels, her brother Jay, and her friend Matt did FFAs together. Was so fun, and we started playing the revenge game and targeted whoever your killer was LOL
I won 2 FFAs, and I believe Kels won 1. We were about to start our 4th but then the TO said Pools were starting so we had to stop. =P

In my Pools, I had Holy, Techiyo, and Genesis.
Techiyo went Marth, and I was like "eh, IDC how bad the MU was". But then I really learned how bad it was since I never played a good Marth before LOL
So we went on Smashville, and he ended up SDing by missing the ledge (though he still had the lead lol). Then I got killed by a Bair (at least we both had 1 life left).
Then I CP'd Delfino, and ironically I did worse there even though it's my favorite stage. Got 2 stocked lol

Then I went against Holy, and he went Wolf. First match I got like a 75% lead on him and a Jab Lock (though I missed the F-Smash >__>), but then I was getting juggled to hell. Got 2 stocked lol
Then we went on Delfino, I died at the end from him spiking me in the water.

Genesis I somehow managed to win against. He went ROB (though I thought he'd go Toon Link/Zelda LOL), and we went on Battlefield Game 1. I suck at reading lasers, especially when he's offstage lol
I also can't stand his Nair or Bair... >__>
But it was pretty close, and I managed to win. I reflected a Gyro anytime it landed on the ground.
Then Game 2, he CP'd Frigate Orpheon (I didn't have a ban since I don't have MU EXP lol), and OH. MY. GOD. That was super intense.
Last stock, I was at 100% and he was at 20%. Then Kels came in, and idk how, but I managed to do my PKF string, and I was making a comeback! We were both at 120%, so it was really intense, and I Nair'd, but he shielded, so I was like ASDFGHJKL NESS RUN and thankfully I avoided his attack. Then I won with a Uair kill!! :D
(And now I really learned the brokenness of Uair. XD)

Then after Pools finished, we went on lunch break, and I went with Kels, Matt and Jay to McDonalds. I just got a McChicken and 6 Chicken Nuggets since I didn't want to spend too much money.
Kels was kind of loud at times and it drew attention, but we had a good time eating! XD

We got back a bit before lunch break ended, so we did our FFAs again. I got a PK Flash on Kels and she was ANGRY LOL
I still won that FFA, and then our 2nd FFA I went Lucas, but accidentally killed myself at the end since I thought I had my Double Jump lol

Bracket started, and I had to go up against Morks (the TO), and it was the best (as in hilarious) set of the tourney. So first match, he went DK, and I lost (though he didn't want to do the infinite lol).
I got 2-stocked there, then I CP'd to Halberd (I would've gone to Delfino but I wasn't sure if that's a good idea against DK lol) and he went Ness. The ending of that match was too funny though. We were both on our last stock, at 0, and he does the ledge PKT, but he fell too low to grab the ledge, so I won that ROFL
Then he goes MK, and he Side-B'd off the stage within the first 5 seconds. But remember when I said my inability to maintain a lead would be my downfall? ...Yeah. DSmash/Dair/Up-B/Tornado are lame.
^That was still funny though... XP

Then I ask Kels on how to maintain a lead, and thank god she told me. Would've been useful to know earlier, but now I know! =P

So then I go up against Jay (Kels' younger brother) in bracket, and he goes G&W, my most hated MU b/c of those stupid Smashes. Fortunately I won that (had a high % lead lol) and then he switched to MK and CP'd Delfino. I won (with a 2-stock lol), but then he raged and I was worried. Then Kels just told me not to worry about him. =P

And then Jay tells me in the bracket I have to go up against either Holy or Tarex. Well, at that point, I was rather worried. In the end though, I fought Tarex, and it did not really go well LOL
So we go on Smashville Game 1, I'm trying to shield the Eggs, but Yoshi's grabs were getting to me and the GR>U-Smash is lame. Yoshi's Jab was also super annoying since it was faster than anything I tried lol
Well, I got 2-stocked there, and then Tarex tells me to go Yoshi myself since he sucks at the ditto (and said it was ******** LMAO). I was rather hesitant, but... I switched to Yoshi, and my god, the ditto really is ******** LOL
I did a bit better, but I was still 2 stocked. Oh well.

And I was out, but then learned I got 9th (I didn't know how many people were there at the time lol). It's my best record so far!
____________________
So yeah, that's my tourney experience! Had an amazing time there! :D

 

[Z'zgashi]

I was rather hesitant, but... I switched to Yoshi, and my god, the ditto really is ******** LOL

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Yoshi dittos are so stupid lmao.

 

[Kokomaniac]

Nice story xD

The only tourney I've been to I was dumpstered by mikeray, but it still was a fun day.

Now that I think of it, how DO you maintain a lead? e_e

 

[Luco]

Spaaaaaaaaace.... Oh look, we're in space! SPACE!!!!

By which I mean, space stuff and be wary n' stuff.... :3

Also, i'll have to tell you guys about that doubles match my bro and I did with these two guys at BAM in bracket. First match was Lucas fourways and second match.... was on spear pillar LOL. It was amazing, hilarious and awesome. Tell ya about it later. =D

 

[I.S FoxMkloud]

Look at all these tourney stories.... I feel like I am missing out.

 

[Screk]

Spaaaaaaaaace.... Oh look, we're in space! SPACE!!!!

Space you say ?

 

[Kokomaniac]

Is anyone here planning to go to apex? :D

 

[Screk]

So my sister who's about to give birth is going to name her son Lucas.... WELP time to teach him the art of PSI when he comes of age

 

[Nido]

Don't let a priest near him or he'll get grabbed over and over.

 

[Tikao]

So my sister who's about to give birth is going to name her son Lucas.... WELP time to teach him the art of PSI when he comes of age

are you magypsy enough for this?
if you're not, you have to give birth too ... and name your son ness, so he'll be the best friend of lucas and someday learning PSI ... THEN he can teach lucas

 

[Nido]

I like EarthBound. It's a good game.

 

[Screk]

I like pie