[Nesu] It's so deserted here I could find Criminal Caterpillars. (Post here if you're cool)

[Kokomaniac]

I guess that can be true, but there's a reason that most ness players spend the entire game in the air and not on the ground

 

[Reckless4Christ]

Yeah Ness's ground game IS decent, just as long as the Ness plays smart:not like my cousin.
He says:"You're gonna get creamed!"-and I 3-stock him.
He thinks maining Ness is all about PK-Flash this, PK-Flash that...

 

[Kokomaniac]

I do think Ness's ftilt is sexy though

 

[Nido]

I KNOW RIGHT?

It's almost as good as Utilt, that thing is priority broken.

@Tikao, our ground game is below average, hardly solid. All we have that's decent of the ground is Utilt which has bad range but good as anti-air with huge priority, dash grab which has great distance covered and speed, dash attack for similar reasons and decent priority, PK Fire being good at trapping and follow ups but can be easily punished in the end lag and on powershield and pivot grab which is notoriously broken. (I'm not including throws as a ground option because you need to actually land a grab first.)

4/12 ground options are decent, 1/12 being amazing and the rest being pretty bad to near ****ing useless. That is not an ideal ground game to me plus no decent ground options kill outside of a grab.

 

[Jamwa]

but you can't say that he can be reliable or high tier without some sort of reliability on the ground

Reliability is in spacing, punishing, and approaching, is it not? Ness predominantly uses his aerials for all these aspects of gameplay, and his ground moves are certainly reliable in each case (when appropriate), except for Jab 2 as aforementioned

also ness' grab range is bad, its just fast.

 

[Luco]

Reliability is in spacing, punishing, and approaching, is it not? Ness predominantly uses his aerials for all these aspects of gameplay, and his ground moves are certainly reliable in each case (when appropriate), except for Jab 2 as aforementioned

also ness' grab range is bad, its just fast.

It's bad but... it's not hideously bad.

Sorry, couldn't resist. We need to change that title lol.

Anyway, what i mean it, it's not as bad as like, Ganondorf's or Link's (Link's pivot grab is like useless and Ganon has no range at all).

I actually think ness' grab is decent. Because it's fast it allows him to get places... I dunno. It just works for me I guess.

 

[Nido]

It's bad but... it's not -3.

-2 maybe?

Couldn't resist

 

[Luco]

You mis-understand me. -3 is bad, -4 i hideously bad. Bubba wanted it to be impossible but I believe no Mu is truly impossible.

Me being the idealistic, optimistic freako I am.

 

[Nido]

Sheik:Ganondorf is LITERALLY IMPOSSIBLE.

Jacket chain glitch or whatever after getting the % lead and it's game over. Nothing can be done about it by Ganon.

Step 1. Needle

Step 2. Upb

Step 3. Glitch

Step 4. Ganon quits

 

[Luco]

How is this glitch done sorry? This sounds heavily broken. Why haven't i heard of this before? Teach me master nido!

 

[Nido]

From what I remember, it's a SH or FH SideB at the peak of the jump and retains the knockback of the previous move.

UpB is most powerful and makes Ganon unable to get close to Sheik to even hit her.

It's highly situational and hard plus it's a hard -3 for Ganon even without it.

 

[Jamwa]

Ness is not -3 against any character

 

[Nido]

Try telling that to the Marth mains.

 

[Luco]

Ness is a solid -3 against Marth and DDD. Until a change in our meta occurs, I don't see those two MUs going anywhere anytime soon.

 

[Kokomaniac]

I think that Marth mains have some sort of power complex and like to feel dominating by declaring a -3 for ness

 

[Nido]

Marth mains are ****ers.

End of story.

 

[Tikao]

if the marf knows how to play the MU, it's a -3 for us ... don't underestimate this MU, because you won against some marfs ... if the marf knows the MU, it's just terrible, even without GR
his fair > our fair (if marf spaces right) ... and he's one of the best at gimping us

 

[Luco]

The major reason this is a -3 and not a -4 is because we can stay near the ledge if we don't want to worry about grabs as much and we can harass Marth off-stage quite a bit. Also, after playing some Marths recently, i've found he's not as scary in the air as I used to think he was (which is exactly what I was told by Yink a little while ago). Nair seems to work wonders in this MU and I think it's because Marths are used to us using more Fair than Nair.

I dunno, this is just me rambling on I suppose, I 2-stocked wave with Ness last time I versed him so i'm suddenly a little more optimistic on the MU since i've played it practically recently... but still not THAT optimistic.

 

[Kokomaniac]

I play Ness against Marth all the time and once the Marth gains momentum it's hard to not die (over and over and over)

 

[Screk]

Marth is just one of those very picky MU's honestly no Huuuuuuuuuuuuur pkthunda huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuur

 

[Kokomaniac]

Playing against Marth isn't fun at all, he just bodies you if he gets in and can kill you really fast

 

[Luco]

I find it to be a bit different - if you're in (for whatever reason), Nair is a great interrupter. I found it super useful against wave. Might just be wave/me though. In any case, I think with Marth you just wanna be careful. Watch for an opening (this is the hard part) and be wary of him through everything.

Or you can just be patient the whole time. I remember Yink once telling me that she found it so scary that my approach to the MU is running in a lot more.

 

[Jamwa]

Marth is ez, you just gotta power shield everything and its k

 

[yoshi8984]

I don't find Marth so bad, but when you run into a tipper you feel really stupid lol

 

[Kokomaniac]

Yeah I know, and if you do happen to run into it you're probably dead lol. But yeah it's not that bad if you wait for him to come at you, you can exploit mistakes easily. I'm just so sick of the matchup honestly I've played hundreds and hundreds of times probably

 

[Reckless4Christ]

I have no experience on this MU so I'll go away for a while...

 

[Luco]

No experience against a Marth eh?? We must remedy that!

 

[Screk]

Martha doesn't want to bake I mean play

 

[Jamwa]

marth is always like fair but i am like shield and then he is oh-no and i am fair and he is ouch

 

[Kokomaniac]

But nair vs Marth is better than fair ;(

 

[Luco]

Nair is surprisingly amazing in this MU.

Funnily enough, Yink always used to tell me that she thought Fair was a bad move to get too comfortable with and that Nair was the amazing move.

Personally I think Fair for range, Nair for priority.

 

[Kokomaniac]

Nair is best in every situation except when you know Marth can't do anything back to you, like if you're punishing or something

 

[Luco]

Fair is good to throw out once in a while; even Nair can be punished and you wanna keep the marth players from cottoning on or they'll grab you and we all know how it goes from there.

 

[Nido]

I really like Uair in this MU because Marth thinks he can Dair then you mindgame by air dodging and he's eating a kick in the face from the lag.

Or more Uairs and it repeats :3

 

[Luco]

Hey Nido check out my new sig.

Also, Uair is a really good balance between range and priority. One of the many reasons Ness - Oli is a 0 IMO. We destroy that little space captain in the air with it.

 

[Nido]

Nice, Uair is an often forgotten move which makes me cry

 

[Jamwa]

nair has less range than fair, so its bad if the marth knows what spacing means

 

[Luco]

nair has less range than fair, so its bad if the marth knows what spacing means

Marth's Fair beats our Fair anyway if spaced correctly iirc.

Nair works more often than I think. It's a move for once you get in. I used it on wave to incredibly successful results, as I said before. When I play Shaya again i'll see how effective it really is offline.

 

[Kokomaniac]

Only reason I'd use nair more here is because fair trades badly for ness against marth not because I use it more overall. Also uair is indeed amazing in this matchup as well

 

[PK Jibaku]

N-air is a really good move, especially since its lasts long and you can Double Aerial Shuffle with it.