[Nesu] It's so deserted here I could find Criminal Caterpillars. (Post here if you're cool)

[Reckless4Christ]

@Tikao-I've barely been to any tourneys at all and I've never played this MU.I'd use Fox for it anyway.
@V115-Cuz Ness players (including myself) need to learn how to not get grabbed.

 

[yoshi8984]

This character is so much fun! Why does he have to get screwed over by grab releases

You're also forgetting an unsafe recovery and lack of range too. :/

But Ness is still #1 to me <3

 

[Kokomaniac]

Yeah it really is a shame those unfortunate short comings of Ness, both intended and unintended, but you gotta live with what you get dealt

 

[Luco]

Actually, apparently if you're really good, recovery is much less of an issue.

Range too on non-Fair/grab/yoyo moves.

 

[Kokomaniac]

True, and I have found recovering so much easier now with experience. I don't get gimped all too much

 

[Tikao]

"hey, let's gimp Ness yolo" ... and he died because he jumped in the pkt2 ... happened a lot xD

 

[Nido]

All they need to do is hesitate for a second before trying and then eating PKT2 coming at wtf km/h

 

[Kokomaniac]

My friends jump into it at low percents on purpose and when I'm recovering from far so that I can't reach the edge

Wait what's what you just said

 

[Reckless4Christ]

Yeah, I've had this happen a little.

 

[Tikao]

but someday, even the reckless ones learn when to gimp ness, and to stop yolo-gimps ... if somebody knows the Ness-Mu, it's way harder to play against them (wow, you don't say tikao)

 

[Luco]

Wow, you don- *slaps self*

But I was talking to Yink when I asked this because it was a major concern of mine. She told me that at top level of play, recovery just isn't an issue anymore, pretty much.

Guess I still have a way to go. :o

 

[Kokomaniac]

It's not so bad for me anymore just because I've gotten gimped in every way possible the last year while playing ness and there are ways to avoid it. Not that I'm saying I'm good or something, I'm actually quite bad

 

[Tikao]

But I was talking to Yink when I asked this because it was a major concern of mine. She told me that at top level of play, recovery just isn't an issue anymore, pretty much.

if it would become no issue anymore, it would be awesome.
it will ever be an issue, but at top level, it's just like no issue ... at some points, you just can't recover, if your opponent knows how to stop it (also depends on the MU).
a big part of Ness's recovery is just avoiding these situations and at top level play, if you can avoid these situations, you're like ungimpable (if you do everything right) but you can be as good as you want, sometimes you'll be in these situations and then you get gimped ... but the point here is "if your opponent knows how to stop you" and ness is not that common, so even if you're in these situations, you can recover and safe yourself, because most opponents don't know exactly how to gimp Ness and where are his "bad-recovery-spots"

but "no issue anymore" is too optimistic

 

[Nido]

On that topic, the reason Ness is low is part to do with how **** his recovery is regardless of whether it kills your opponent in the process, if it wasn't an issue at all Ness gains like 8 spots on the tier list.

 

[Tikao]

yeah, it's short-ranged and slow anyway ... Ness with Lucas' recovery would be awesome xD ... and his pk-fire for some zap-jumps ... or only his zap-jump, because pkt1 juggling is awesome :D ... Ness Lucas's zap-jump would be soooo awesome

 

[yoshi8984]

I though GR issues gone would make Ness like +6 to 8 spots on the tier list and then a safe recovery would make him like +20 or something LMAO

 

[infiniteV115]

Not many characters seem like they can reliably gimp Ness. Just the really good edgeguarders.
So like, MK, Pikachu, Wario, Marth, G&W, DDD.

Ness' biggest problem is definitely the GR. With that gone I'd put him in C tier.

 

[Kokomaniac]

Not many characters seem like they can reliably gimp Ness. Just the really good edgeguarders.
So like, MK, Pikachu, Wario, Marth, G&W, DDD.

Ness' biggest problem is definitely the GR. With that gone I'd put him in C tier.

Yeah I'm gonna have to agree. In terms of tier spots, the removal of the grab release would put him higher than if he had a consistent but similar recovery.

 

[Nido]

Not many characters seem like they can reliably gimp Ness. Just the really good edgeguarders.
So like, MK, Pikachu, Wario, Marth, G&W, DDD.

Ness' biggest problem is definitely the GR. With that gone I'd put him in C tier.

Without the unsafe recover and GR I'd push MK:Ness to a 0.

 

[Kokomaniac]

Without the unsafe recover and GR I'd push MK:Ness to a 0.

You think Marth MU would be better?

 

[Nido]

I'd say it becomes -2, a lot of Ness' -1s and -2s would likely shift +1 in our favour giving us a not so bad MU spread.

 

[Riho]

Sakurai. Smash 4, you know what to do.

if anyone else was wondering it's make bandana waddle dee a thing.
but seriously grab release wtf.

 

[Kokomaniac]

So many mistakes in brawl that will be fixed

 

[Luco]

All they need to do is hesitate for a second before trying and then eating PKT2 coming at wtf km/h

Sigging that, dude. That is hilarious. :D

@Infinite: C tier? Wow never thought of that before. That's actually pretty cool. :D

IMo without those two issues, Marth would prooooobably become a -2 (our biggest issue here would become getting in, which would be easier if Ness had slightly better range on some of his aerials and ground attacks aside from Fair) and peeps like DK and such would probably be a 0 or even +1.

MK would be 0 or one of the easiest +1's (MK favour) this world has ever known. That's a pretty insane thought and would probably contribute to Ness being higher on the tier list than we already think of him. I just remembered that: With a bunch of radically different MUs, Ness would do fine against quite a few top tiers (like Oli, Wario, etc). I used to think without these issues he'd probably only be mid tier but I actually see now how it'd be possible for him to be higher than that.

Dang it guys now i'm melancholy at the flaws Ness has. It's like, you just gave me the vision of a lollipop and then took it away.... ;_;

 

[Nido]

I had my lollipop stolen from me irl today, I bought it for like 45c and then a **** from school took it from me as I was leaving the supermarket with my other stuff.

It ruined my day so much.

On topic, DK would be a hard -1, he still slaps Ness silly in range and power without the stupid cargo ****

 

[Tikao]

but Ness's fair ***** dk realy hard ... without the GR, it would be a easy -1, ...but if Ness realy would have a good recovery and no GR, he would be on of the best chars against mk in the entire game ... we should make a tier-list of that xD ... his worst MU would be Marf (-2), d³ (-2, he doesn't realy need GR, because of his cg, and he isn't realy good at gimping Ness) and Tink (-2, doesn't realy need GR against Ness, but can't gimp Ness anymore, so he would be a easy -2) ... all other -2 MUs have some GR options, which can realy shut us down (like snake's utilt)

so
-2 MUs would be marf/d³/tink
-1 MUs would be Dk/Falco/GaW/Peach/Snake/Wolf/IC/Zss/maybe Mk
0 MUs would be Diddy/Ike/Pit/Rob/Shiek/Shielda/Sonic/Wario/Fox/Luigi/Olimar/Yoshi/maybe Mk
+1 MUs would be Cf/Lucario/Kirby/Mario/Pikachu/Link/Lucas/Samus
+2 MUs would be Bowser/Jiggz/Zelda/Ganondorf

so, if you add them, you got +4/+3

the closer chars in the MU-chart would be fox/Rob/shiek, so, if you only look at the MU, Ness would be somewhere between shiek and fox, so he would be in D or E tier ... shiek has a +4 and rob +1, rob is still 6 places higher, so it's not like the only relevant factor, and also this is only my opinion about the MUs, but C tier seems too optimistic imo (tink +21/ d³ +33/ Lucario +20/ zss 28)

so if you have a difference of like +/- 10 (+14/-6) he would be somewhere between yoshi and Wolf ... yoshi would be +1 spot in the tier-list, so this wouldn't be enough, so he's somewhere in D/E tier ... as he would move more than like 2 / 3 / 4 --- etc. spots, he would be in D-tier imo so you could compare a Ness without GR and a better recovery with Wolf, GaW, Fox, Peach and Pit

 

[Nido]

I disagree with D3 Tikao, D3 would remain -3 due to the fact that he is one of the best edgeguarders in the gameand applies huge ledge pressure and the absence of GRs means nothing because he doesn't benefit from them.

TIL Fsmash has equal range to Jab3 ._.

 

[Tikao]

d³ never seemed like a hard -3 or something like that to me... and i would even say marf would be worse, even with a decent recovery and no GR ... and tink's fsmash is sdi-able, so it's no problem, if you know how to sdi out of it ... but i don't thought of d³'s edge pressure ... marf is still worse imo, so both would be -3

 

[Luco]

Yeah but remember that everyone would freak out about a 0 MU with MK and suddenly he'd be in C tier.

 

[Reckless4Christ]

lol C tier...
maybe D, but I don't think Ness w/out GR would be above, say, Fox. Above E tier though.

 

[Kokomaniac]

The fact that ness's ground game is just not good makes me doubt that he can be C tier with all those changes

 

[Nido]

Dat pivot grab though

 

[Luco]

Do i believe my eyes? Did I seriously just see Nido use a picture of bumble-bee Ness? Not green?

Kay.

But anyway, i'm also talking about a non-abusable recovery. Also since when is Ness' ground game 'bad'? It's not great but... it's not... hideous or anything.

 

[Nido]

You may believe your eyes, the only video on Youtube with Ness' hitboxes use the Yellow Ness, not my Lovely Green Ness.

So you're saying Ness' ground game isn't -3?

 

[Luco]

Oho, Iseewhatyoudidtheeeeeereeee.....

Oh also is it weird that I 2-stocked Wave as Ness and then proceeded to lose (it was a close game, freakishly close but still...) as Lucas?

I'm scared. =C

 

[Reckless4Christ]

lol the red part's Ness's grab box? I didn't know it was THAT big.
Yellow Ness makes me sick, but green doesn't

 

[Jamwa]

You can't argue that Ness' ground game is detrimental to the character; it doesn't affect his spacing (he has fair for this) , approach (barrel rolls, airdodge, fair, dash grab, usmash. So many mixups for ness), or punish options (dsmash, usmash, nair is amazing, bair, dair).
The only thing bad about him is that Jab 2 doesn't always connect at low percents (i.e. the opponent can shield it), so you have to jab once and then retreat, or do some mixup i dunno.

 

[Tikao]

dat pivot grab range <3 ... making somebody mad, because he got grabbed although he thought, he spaced everything perfect, and then he got grabbed by the last pixel or something like dat and both of you can see how he got teleportet to ness xD ( that combined with the fact that Ness has the fastest grabs in the entire game make his grabgame realy awesome, and then his throws <3 ) , that and making them mad with pkt1-juggling in pkmn-stadium 2 in the air-transformation until they got like 70% or even die are the most awesome things, when you're maining ness ... and then some pkt2-kills and pk-flash kills and spikes (maybe out of pk-fire) and some dtilt kills at the edge, because they stealed the opponents jump, and they're confused and can get edgehoged etc. ... maining Ness is just awesome, he is so fun to play, even with his recovery and GR's against him ...

 

[Kokomaniac]

Yeah some of his ground game is decent and certainly you can't say a character with aerials as good as ness's is invalidated by a subpar ground game, but you can't say that he can be reliable or high tier without some sort of reliability on the ground. He can be higher tier with some of his obvious mistakes fixed but I also think it takes a balance of some reliable ground game and good air game to be truly a solid character, and I'm not just talking grabs. It just seems to me that if you don't have both ground and air like many high tier characters then you can't be that solid of a character

 

[Tikao]

He can be higher tier with some of his obvious mistakes fixed but I also think it takes a balance of some reliable ground game and good air game to be truly a solid character

think of olimar ... he is the second best charakter in the current tier-list, and now think of olimar's air-game ... he doesn't realy need a good air-game ... think of the Olimar-Mk Mu... it's not that bad for olimar although he can't do like anything against mk according to his aerials

also ness has a solid ground game, not the best, but a solid ground-game ... if somebody approaches him, you can use his (pivot)grab and jabs (his jabs are awesome, don't forget them), and , also ooS nair ... yeah, nair is an aerial, but out of your shield, so at the ground, so when somebody approaches you at the ground, it's still usefull although it's an aerial ... you can't separate his ground and his air-game like that .... also he even got his dash-attack (realy amazing range, a good mixup) and dashgrab (on of the best ranges in the game and fastest), so he can even approach with his groundgame for some mixups ... he doesn't have any reliable kill move according to his ground-game (except his realy-awesome bthrow) but he got a bair, uair, which are good killing options, at higher % nair and non-spiked dair (yeah, they kill at higher %) ... so if your enemy is at like 100-120% , they'll be difficult to grab, because everybody is affraid of his b-throw, so just spamming grabs is dumb ... this doesn't mean Ness has no killing-power ... Ness is good at killing his opponent.
what does Ness's ground game realy need?
most of his options are covered by his air-game (like olimar does the opposite way), but his groundgame is still solid ... yeah, if his fsmash would be like Lucas's, it wouldn't make him worse , but he doesn't realy NEED a better ground game. he needs a better recovery, because he got a terrible recovery. he needs to get rid of the GR-stuff, because they can realy shut him down, but his ground game is solid