Ness is out: Come and help those in denial...

[DeuceBlade]

And as many facts (Actual facts) that we give you still deny them, you say that we are the close minded ones and yet you refuse to acknowledge the facts (Key word there) that we present to you.

Funny how you talk of ignorance and immaturity when you are the one who practices them the most.

What facts have I denied? I support Ness its not logical to agree with things that go against him when I know they can be countered, I admit Ness' chances aren't high, but unlike you guys who jump to conclusions and say "Ness = out", I say he has a chance.. whether its a small or large chance its still a chance.

Now there are two different types of Ness disbelievers.. ones who believe he won't be in because he has a low chance, and the ones who say hes already out and jump to conclusions.

The immaturity usually comes from the people who jump to conclusions.. they have to result to insults, and flaming because its the only way they know to support their opinions that make them think they are facts.

I believe Ness has a chance in brawl, this offends people sadly... because it goes against what they believe.

 

[Mega-Ridley-Knight-Man]

What facts have I denied? I support Ness its not logical to agree with things that go against him when I know they can be countered, I admit Ness' chances aren't high, but unlike you guys who jump to conclusions and say "Ness = out", I say he has a chance.. whether its a small or large chance its still a chance.

Now there are two different types of Ness disbelievers.. ones who believe he won't be in because he has a low chance, and the ones who say hes already out and jump to conclusions.

The immaturity usually comes from the people who jump to conclusions.. they have to result to insults, and flaming because its the only way they know to support their opinions that make them think they are facts.

I believe Ness has a chance in brawl, this offends people sadly... because it goes against what they believe.

I believe Ness doesn't have much of a chance, but you keep on saying that he has high chances when it is obviously not true. The facts that we have presented to you clearly show why he doesn't have much of a chance and considering we counter every single one of your "Counters" only furthers our point.

But seriously shut the **** up about your jumping to conclusions, the only one here who is doing that is you, you think anyone who says Ness doesn't have much of a chance instantly thinks he is not in the game. While we say he doesn't have much of a chance we do that because Sakurai has (Based off of facts and evidence) made numerous hints that Ness is out.

 

[DeuceBlade]

And as many facts (Actual facts) that we give you still deny them, you say that we are the close minded ones and yet you refuse to acknowledge the facts (Key word there) that we present to you.

Funny how you talk of ignorance and immaturity when you are the one who practices them the most.

I believe Ness doesn't have much of a chance, but you keep on saying that he has high chances when it is obviously not true. The facts that we have presented to you clearly show why he doesn't have much of a chance and considering we counter every single one of your "Counters" only furthers our point.

But seriously shut the **** up about your jumping to conclusions, the only one here who is doing that is you, you think anyone who says Ness doesn't have much of a chance instantly thinks he is not in the game. While we say he doesn't have much of a chance we do that because Sakurai has (Based off of facts and evidence) made numerous hints that Ness is out.

- I never said he had high chances..
- Your counters are usually insults and opinions... not really facts.
- You just jumped to a conclusion... since in a previous post I clearly divided people who believe Ness is out.. from people who believe he has a little chance.
- The hints that you think means Ness is out could also be seen as hints towards his chances, its all perspective.

That fact is, most of you do not see more than 1 side, which is the reason you jump to conclusions and have to result to biased opinions.

 

[Mega-Ridley-Knight-Man]

Which is exactly what you are doing.

1. You just always said he had a chance and tried to make it out as if it was high.
2. No they are not. You just want to believe they are.
3. Except I based that off of your previous posts as well, when you accused me of that or hinted at me doing that.
4. ... No they don't...

 

[adumbrodeus]

Definition of "until now" according to http://www.thefreedictionary.com/until+now



This thead = fail

the grim lizard = idiot, troll, noob

READ THE F***ING THREAD!

If you did, you'd know why the English update is irrelevant.

Yes, the actual words he says basically is a sentence that means "Ness is out," so essentially he said it.

READ ABOVE!

WE HAD AN ENTIRE DISCUSSION ABOUT HOW THE JAPANESE AND ENGLISH UPDATES DO NOT MATCH UP ON THIS POINT!

 

[DeuceBlade]

READ THE F***ING THREAD!

If you did, you'd know why the English update is irrelevant.




READ ABOVE!

WE HAD AN ENTIRE DISCUSSION ABOUT HOW THE JAPANESE AND ENGLISH UPDATES DO NOT MATCH UP ON THIS POINT!

I'm not sure if you have realized yet but... they are just cycling the problem over and over in an attempt to troll/flame while appearing logical...

just ignore the post , I can see its beginning to take its toll on you.

 

[finalark]

Logic? I don't see any logic anywhere.

So, DB, give me five times that anyone who thinks Ness is out for get jumped to a conclusion.

 

[Luke Groundwalker]

WE HAD AN ENTIRE DISCUSSION ABOUT HOW THE JAPANESE AND ENGLISH UPDATES DO NOT MATCH UP ON THIS POINT!

The Japanese and English updates say the exact same thing, so what are you talking about?

 

[Yitik]

Holy crap. Is this a flame thread or what?

RULE ONE OF DEBATING ONLINE: TREAT YOUR OPPONENT WITH RESPECT AND DO NOT ATTACK HIS OR HER CHARACTER AS AN ARGUMENT. Flaming does not work. We're arguing here about whether a character should be in Brawl. We're arguing about a video game, which no matter how many facts you use you cannot predict the outcome since it's in the hands of a couple people halfway across the world (if you're in North America). Thus, emotions and logic are the best way to go. A good sample of emotion getting a character in is Peach: you couldn't really look at Smash Bros. 64 and say, "Duuude, we need a tennis-playing princess in here! That would make so much sense!" but she was in Melee anyway because people wanted her.

I'm quite certain Ness is out, but I wish there was some way he couldn't be without becoming a clone. So I'm not arguing either way. I'll just bring my own little brand of sunshine into this Threed of a thread.

 

[courte]

Holy crap. Is this a flame thread or what?

RULE ONE OF DEBATING ONLINE: TREAT YOUR OPPONENT WITH RESPECT AND DO NOT ATTACK HIS OR HER CHARACTER AS AN ARGUMENT. Flaming does not work. We're arguing here about whether a character should be in Brawl. We're arguing about a video game, which no matter how many facts you use you cannot predict the outcome since it's in the hands of a couple people halfway across the world (if you're in North America). Thus, emotions and logic are the best way to go. A good sample of emotion getting a character in is Peach: you couldn't really look at Smash Bros. 64 and say, "Duuude, we need a tennis-playing princess in here! That would make so much sense!" but she was in Melee anyway because people wanted her.

I'm quite certain Ness is out, but I wish there was some way he couldn't be without becoming a clone. So I'm not arguing either way. I'll just bring my own little brand of sunshine into this Threed of a thread.

original =/= clone

point is no one knows anything and you guys are simply reading far into little things

Far to into it

you're going to quote this and say "we have facts and logic" but nothing can beat the powerful actual words "ness is out" and not "up until now ness was in smash {{man this is gonna make those american smashers sweat bricks hahahaha}}" im talking about POINT BLANK 'Ness is out' 'Ness will not be returning'

 

[Yitik]

original =/= clone

point is no one knows anything and you guys are simply reading far into little things

Far to into it

you're going to quote this and say "we have facts and logic" but nothing can beat the powerful actual words "ness is out" and not "up until now ness was in smash {{man this is gonna make those american smashers sweat bricks hahahaha}}" im talking about POINT BLANK 'Ness is out' 'Ness will not be returning'

Hmm. When was this stated? Developers are only human, you know; things change. Look at SC: Ghost (although we don't want Brawl to go the way of Ghost ).

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

What?

Spoiler

10char

 

[Wu Tang Gang]

The More You Know


Did YOU know that DoucheBlade for a fact, is the_sandman?

 

[RDK]

Did YOU know that DoucheBlade for a fact, is the_sandman?

I have much to learn about life.

 

[Wu Tang Gang]

I have much to learn about life.

Like how Geno is everythng but confirmed?

 

[RDK]

Like how Geno is everythng but confirmed?

*COVERS EARS*

 

[adumbrodeus]

The Japanese and English updates say the exact same thing, so what are you talking about?

They TRY to.

They generally succeed in at least getting the gist across, but anyone who has ever taken a foreign language will tell you, some things just don't translate properly.


This is one such case, somebody noticed that there was a difference between what this particular English update said and what this particular Japanese update said.


It was initially brought up in this thread, not immediately, but still. It was also debated considerably earlier in the thread we are posting on now.

いままで ("ima made", for those who can't read hiragana) does not mean the same thing as "until now". The best translation is "until now", but it's just a statement that something occurred previously, saying nothing about whether it will occur or not in the future.

Again, to say it's the translator's error is fallacious, it's the English language's error because it lacks the wording to accomplish a proper translation.


http://www.smashbros.com/jp/characters/lucas.html#2nd is where the Japanese update is located.

I'm not sure if you have realized yet but... they are just cycling the problem over and over in an attempt to troll/flame while appearing logical...

just ignore the post , I can see its beginning to take its toll on you.

Not really, just wanted to catch their attention so they would stop ignoring my statements.

It would be easier if you just took the logical counter-argument.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

I think DeuceBlade is too selfish to let the Mother series move on just because he's too hung on Ness... I'd love it if Ness were back, but I understand that the Mother series should have the Mother 3 representation, so I moved on.

Then again, DeuceBlade is not even a fan of Mother. ¬¬

 

[RDK]

I think DeuceBlade has a sexual fetish for Ness.

 

[Wu Tang Gang]

They TRY to.

They generally succeed in at least getting the gist across, but anyone who has ever taken a foreign language will tell you, some things just don't translate properly.


This is one such case, somebody noticed that there was a difference between what this particular English update said and what this particular Japanese update said.


It was initially brought up in this thread, not immediately, but still. It was also debated considerably earlier in the thread we are posting on now.

いままで ("ima made", for those who can't read hiragana) does not mean the same thing as "until now". The best translation is "until now", but it's just a statement that something occurred previously, saying nothing about whether it will occur or not in the future.

Again, to say it's the translator's error is fallacious, it's the English language's error because it lacks the wording to accomplish a proper translation.


http://www.smashbros.com/jp/characters/lucas.html#2nd is where the Japanese update is located.









Not really, just wanted to catch their attention so they would stop ignoring my statements.

It would be easier if you just took the logical counter-argument.

How could they possibley mistake the words "Up Until Now" with something else? Besides, didn't SamPanda confirm it the correct translation or something?

 

[Flaming_Wuzzle]

How could they possibley mistake the words "Up Until Now" with something else? Besides, didn't SamPanda confirm it the correct translation or something?

Didn't read the post at all, did you?

It's not really a mistake as much as it is an inadequacy of the English language in that it doesn't have a word or phrase that accurately describes the meaning of the original Japanese.

 

[AdmantNESS]

How could they possibley mistake the words "Up Until Now" with something else? Besides, didn't SamPanda confirm it the correct translation or something?

He's not saying the translation is wrong. He saying that the English Language does not have a word with the connotation of "Up to this point" as the words in English conveys the message that it will not occur again or that the situation changed.

While in Japanese, it doesn't confirm or dis-confirms anything. Until Now is the closest we can get to ima made but its not exact.

It just says that Ness is a character that has appeared.

 

[Wu Tang Gang]

Didn't read the post at all, did you?

It's not really a mistake as much as it is an inadequacy of the English language in that it doesn't have a word or phrase that accurately describes the meaning of the original Japanese.

Not really.

They have Phrases for unnatural phrases as "Vroom Vroom!" or "EYSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH" but they can't get "Up until now" right.

 

[Zycor]

Ness wasn't supposed to be in Melee, so why should be suddenly be in Brawl? Lucas was supposed to be in Melee, but Mother 3 was delayed so they just went with Ness, I personally wont miss him, doubt I'll even attempt to main Lucas either...

On the other side, before I've been flamed faster than a person accused of being a witch. Since Ness has his own move set from the Mother games, they COULD redefine him. Lucas doesn't have ANY of his moves from what I understand, so Ness from Melee and 64 could be out, but this lets the opportunity for a new Ness to be in Brawl. So the Ness we had in 64 and Melee might not be in, but a new Ness could definitely appear.

 

[Yitik]

Ness wasn't supposed to be in Melee, so why should be suddenly be in Brawl? Lucas was supposed to be in Melee, but Mother 3 was delayed so they just went with Ness, I personally wont miss him, doubt I'll even attempt to main Lucas either...

On the other side, before I've been flamed faster than a person accused of being a witch. Since Ness has his own move set from the Mother games, they COULD redefine him. Lucas doesn't have ANY of his moves from what I understand, so Ness from Melee and 64 could be out, but this lets the opportunity for a new Ness to be in Brawl. So the Ness we had in 64 and Melee might not be in, but a new Ness could definitely appear.

See, I just can't envision that happening, considering they're from a series that hasn't been particularly successful. Aside from that, I think it'd be a little redundant to have two psychic kids living in a modern world fighting an extraterrestrial threat both in Brawl. Sad, certainly, but I'm being realistic and unfortunately I haven't read anything to change my mind.

 

[DynamiteSpoony]

Ness wasn't supposed to be in Melee, so why should be suddenly be in Brawl? Lucas was supposed to be in Melee, but Mother 3 was delayed so they just went with Ness, I personally wont miss him, doubt I'll even attempt to main Lucas either...

On the other side, before I've been flamed faster than a person accused of being a witch. Since Ness has his own move set from the Mother games, they COULD redefine him. Lucas doesn't have ANY of his moves from what I understand, so Ness from Melee and 64 could be out, but this lets the opportunity for a new Ness to be in Brawl. So the Ness we had in 64 and Melee might not be in, but a new Ness could definitely appear.

The problem with this is that Ness' exclusive moves in Earthbound is that only one is capable of doing any damage: PSI Rockin. Everything else is stat-boosting, recovery, or shield PSI. Now, not only is Rockin strictly FS material, it's also identical to Mother 3's PK Love.

Also, think about it: Isn't it awfully suspicious that they left out Lucas' signature PK attack completely off his moveset? My guess is that they're reserving it for Claus. And really, the Mother series needs another character AND a playable villian, and Claus is quite literally the ONLY option.

Ness is gone. He's got nothing left after Lucas came in and stole his entire moveset. This did make me sad...until I actually played Mother 3. Now I say out with the old, in with the new.

Oh, and Pokey for SE boss.

Also:

See, I just can't envision that happening, considering they're from a series that hasn't been particularly successful. Aside from that, I think it'd be a little redundant to have two psychic kids living in a modern world fighting an extraterrestrial threat both in Brawl. Sad, certainly, but I'm being realistic and unfortunately I haven't read anything to change my mind.

1. The Mother series, while not really successful in America, is crazy popular in Japan.

2. There is no extraterrestrial in Mother 3 (No, the Pig Masks are NOT aliens), but I do see your point. Even if they're not alike at all in their respective games, to people who don't know much about the Mother series would see them as basically the same person.

 

[Zycor]

Well, they could go Captain Falcon on him too...

 

[MR.WIGZ]

lucas is ness but with a different costume/name...

unless you can tell me other important details it doesnt seem like ness is really gone...

 

[adumbrodeus]

How could they possibley mistake the words "Up Until Now" with something else? Besides, didn't SamPanda confirm it the correct translation or something?

Because the English language lacks a true equivalent to "いままで".

And other people who know Japanese are disagreeing (unless he confirmed that it was the best possible translation, which is entirely different from saying that it is completely accurate), hence why this debate is here in the first place. I'll say this, if SamuriPanda said that the Japanese does in fact deconfirm Ness, he needs to retake basic Japanese, the distinction between いままで and "until now" came up in my first semester of Japanese.

Not really.

They have Phrases for unnatural phrases as "Vroom Vroom!" or "EYSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH" but they can't get "Up until now" right.

Again, they're closest equivalents (with some specifically added because there were English or other language equivalents). That, and sounds made by something tend to be rather easy to translate since everyone simply imitates as best their language can, the sound that is made, which is why onomatopoeic words are actually the most natural to translate, instead of the least, no matter what sound it imitates. Concepts are considerably more difficult to translate, especially when one figures in linguistic determinism (which I will NOT go into, trust me, you don't want this outside of the debate hall).

But this isn't a weakness of Japanese, this is a weakness of English. It's English that lacks a true equivalent to いままで not Japanese that lacks a true equivalent to "until now".


It's rather ignorant of you to assume that everything can be translated flawlessly. Even French, a language that is extremely close to English relatively speaking, isn't perfectly translatable in many cases, let alone a language as foreign as Japanese. Hell, even "です" isn't quite equivalent to "to be" (setting aside the fact that です is the plain form).

Perfect translations are the exception, not the rule, it's just one is usually able to create something where the distinctions between the original and the translation do not make a major difference. Unfortunately, this is one major example of a situation where this wasn't possible.

Didn't read the post at all, did you?

It's not really a mistake as much as it is an inadequacy of the English language in that it doesn't have a word or phrase that accurately describes the meaning of the original Japanese.

Thank you! At least somebody reads.

*Plus 20 cool points for the V avatar*

 

[courte]

lucas is ness but with a different costume/name...

unless you can tell me other important details it doesnt seem like ness is really gone...

lucas is ness but with a different costume name... man i've been in the dark for so long but i've seen the light

so i guess falco is just fox with a bird mask and outfit on and a different name

and ganondorf is just captain falcon at a renissance fair after winning a pie eating contest with a different name

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

lucas is ness but with a different costume name... man i've been in the dark for so long but i've seen the light

so i guess falco is just fox with a bird mask and outfit on and a different name

and ganondorf is just captain falcon at a renissance fair after winning a pie eating contest with a different name

What the hell is wrong with you?

 

[adumbrodeus]

lucas is ness but with a different costume name... man i've been in the dark for so long but i've seen the light

so i guess falco is just fox with a bird mask and outfit on and a different name

and ganondorf is just captain falcon at a renissance fair after winning a pie eating contest with a different name

But of course, why wouldn't he be? I mean it's not like Ness and Lucas have seperate histories and storylines and all that junk, right?



Oh, the bolded one is going into my sig, hope you don't mind.

What the hell is wrong with you?

It was sarcasm.

 

[DeuceBlade]

Everyone who says Lucas has Ness' moveset.. you are wrong.. as Sakurai clearly states the differences...

So to say they have the same moveset is basically calling Sakurai a liar.

and who is the-sandman?

 

[OysterMeister]

Everyone who says Lucas has Ness' moveset.. you are wrong.. as Sakurai clearly states the differences...

So to say they have the same moveset is basically calling Sakurai a liar.

and who is the-sandman?

See, that was unnecessary.
Lucas and Ness don't have the same moveset, this is true. And Sakurai makes these differences very clear in his post, that is also true.
But that 'calling Sakurai a liar' line is just asking for angry responses. I mean, come on. How can people learn the truth if they're too busy being mad at you?

And the-sandman is a user that the people who call you the_sandman obviously don't like. It's an insult, ignore it.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

It was sarcasm.

I know it was sarcasm, but the other poster wasn't refering to Lucas being a clone... so courte didn't get it.

 

[RyuDragonKing]

Everyone who says Lucas has Ness' moveset.. you are wrong.. as Sakurai clearly states the differences...

So to say they have the same moveset is basically calling Sakurai a liar.

Really? What was that PK Fire thing? Was that my imagination?

Hmmm. I wonder.

 

[DarkDeoxys26]

PK Fire is the same move, but has different effects. And it's one of the ONLY moves that Lucas and Ness share so far... check all of his other moves and see if they're all the same. Sakurai even said their regular A attacks are different... sigh..

 

[AsbestosBlatant]

There's PK Thunder and PSI Magnet, and from the looks of it, they don't even work the same as Ness'.

 

[Mega-Ridley-Knight-Man]

They have the same moves except slightly tweaked.

And "the_sandman" is someone very similar to you, sadly you haven't been here long enough to even know who he is.

 

[OysterMeister]

They have the same moves except slightly tweaked.

No they don't. In the update, Sakurai said: "But Lucas’s physical combat style is quite different. By which I mean, he does not have the same standard moves." So it seems pretty obvious that their special moves are all different.

As for their four special moves, yeah, those are pretty similar, although Sakurai says that Lucas' PK Fire "is also quite different from Ness’s."
So evidently Sakurai feels that the tweaks are enough to qualify them as different moves.