Ness is out: Come and help those in denial...

[Mic_128]

Clones are still a valad option in Brawl. Got some time left? Grab an AT that fits the style of a character, tweak the moves and bam, you got yourself a new character. It's how Ganpn got into Melee because his unused form was very similar to Falcons.

Though, I doubt they'd make an old character a clone of his replacement. It'd be like buying a new Ferarri, then pulling it appart to make it look and run like an older model. Pointless.

 

[DeuceBlade]

Clones are still a valad option in Brawl. Got some time left? Grab an AT that fits the style of a character, tweak the moves and bam, you got yourself a new character. It's how Ganpn got into Melee because his unused form was very similar to Falcons.

Though, I doubt they'd make an old character a clone of his replacement. It'd be like buying a new Ferarri, then pulling it appart to make it look and run like an older model. Pointless.

If you trying to say Ness will be a clone, or AT then I advise reading the Lucas moveset update over..

but if you are not trying to say that then where do you stand with Ness?

 

[AetherIke]

Ness isnt coming back, deal with it. ~_~

Lucas' moveset is a bit different in looks, but its still the same nonetheless. (Thunder, Fire, Freeze)
And because its obvious clones are removed, Ness was represented for Mother 2, now its
Lucas' turn to represent Mother 3, end of story.

 

[DeuceBlade]

Ness isnt coming back, deal with it. ~_~

Lucas' moveset is a bit different in looks, but its still the same nonetheless. (Thunder, Fire, Freeze)
And because its obvious clones are removed, Ness was represented for Mother 2, now its
Lucas' turn to represent Mother 3, end of story.

Well look at you having a point. lol.

Ness isn't coming back..? Well only Sakurai could make that decision and you clearly are not Sakurai.

Their moves are the same nonetheless? Tell that to Sakurai who gave effort in explaining the differences between them.

Yeah clones probably will be removed.. but like Sakurai said Ness and Lucas have different movesets, meaning they wouldnt be exactly clones.

Yes Lucas is representing the Mother 3 game, doesn't mean Ness could not make an appearance in a game he was already in. The story isn't over << Ohh Kingdom hearts quote. rofl.

 

[Mic_128]

If you trying to say Ness will be a clone, or AT then I advise reading the Lucas moveset update over.

What I said was more aimed at the "There won't be clones" bit, that it is posible, and no reason why there couldn't be clones.

but if you are not trying to say that then where do you stand with Ness?

To me, he's out. Near identical moves, the "Up until now" statement, to me, it just screams he's out.

 

[DeuceBlade]

What I said was more aimed at the "There won't be clones" bit, that it is posible, and no reason why there couldn't be clones.




To me, he's out. Near identical moves, the "Up until now" statement, to me, it just screams he's out.

Well these are your opinions, and while I do not agree with them I can't say they are wrong because they are you opinions..

We will see what happens with Ness next month.

 

[AetherIke]

Their moves are the same nonetheless? Tell that to Sakurai who gave effort in explaining the differences between them.

Yeah clones probably will be removed.. but like Sakurai said Ness and Lucas have different movesets, meaning they wouldnt be exactly clones.

You're right that their movesets are different, but thats only for standard attacks. Their B-moves are almost completely the same and that's cloney (Yeah i said cloney) enough for me. They,re just too similar and I'd rather have a new Mother char like Claus or Kumatora in with a different moveset.

 

[DarkVision]

Well these are your opinions, and while I do not agree with them I can't say they are wrong because they are you opinions..

We will see what happens with Ness next month.

The word you are looking for is not opinion, because it's a truth whether or not Ness is in or out.

 

[DeuceBlade]

You're right that their movesets are different, but thats only for standard attacks. Their B-moves are almost completely the same and that's cloney (Yeah i said cloney) enough for me. They,re just too similar and I'd rather have a new Mother char like Claus or Kumatora in with a different moveset.

Sakurai sees the B moves as different enough for them to be considered different characters and thats all that matters, and while you would want a new Mother char.. others may want Ness to return.. so that was biased of you.

Compared to the other franchises in brawl, the Mother series in my opinion should be limited to 1-2 reps. and I hope Ness is the second.

 

[AetherIke]

Sakurai sees the B moves as different enough for them to be considered different characters and thats all that matters, and while you would want a new Mother char.. others may want Ness to return.. so that was biased of you.

I dont want a new Mother char instead of Ness because of difference, but I like Claus better, so long as you know. He's awesome. n.n

Well anyway, I dont know what,s gonna happen with Ness, neither do you or anyone else, only Sakurai does, so we might as well put an end to the whole discussion huh?

 

[Wolfgang457]

Sakurai sees the B moves as different enough for them to be considered different characters and thats all that matters, and while you would want a new Mother char.. others may want Ness to return.. so that was biased of you.

Compared to the other franchises in brawl, the Mother series in my opinion should be limited to 1-2 reps. and I hope Ness is the second.

When did Sakurai state that the B moves were different enough for them to be different characters? Yes they are different, but to me it's more of a tweaking to Ness' Melee moveset.

PK Freeze- PK Flash with a freeze effect

PK Fire- moves sideways instead of diagonal (really like this tweak)

PK Thunder- It's still PK thunder.

PSI Magnet- Seems like the range isn't a full 360 degrees this time around, but I could be wrong. :/

Basically if Ness were to return as it were now he'd be more of a Luigified clone than Luigi himself (Luigi at least had one truly unique special). Considering the circumstances I can't imagine why you'd want someone like Ness back when we could get a unique rep from Mother 3 such as Claus.
Almost all the rep so far (not to say some Earthbound rep can't show up later) is Mother 3.

Mother 3 character

Mother 3 stage

Mother 3 music

and the Franklin Badge (but that could go either way).

To me Lucas is simply Ness reincarnated for Brawl (considering the moveset) and I'm quite happy with some of the moveset tweaks that occured, and I believe this is Sakurai's way of trying to make "Ness" better than before. I'm not necessarily opposed to Ness himself moreso than I think if there is another Mother rep that it should go to someone who could be more unique, and most likely, from Mother 3.

 

[DeuceBlade]

I dont want a new Mother char instead of Ness because of difference, but I like Claus better, so long as you know. He's awesome. n.n

Well anyway, I dont know what,s gonna happen with Ness, neither do you or anyone else, only Sakurai does, so we might as well put an end to the whole discussion huh?

Yes I agree with what you said.

When did Sakurai state that the B moves were different enough for them to be different characters? Yes they are different, but to me it's more of a tweaking to Ness' Melee moveset.

PK Freeze- PK Flash with a freeze effect

PK Fire- moves sideways instead of diagonal (really like this tweak)

PK Thunder- It's still PK thunder.

PSI Magnet- Seems like the range isn't a full 360 degrees this time around, but I could be wrong. :/

Basically if Ness were to return as it were now he'd be more of a Luigified clone than Luigi himself (Luigi at least had one truly unique special). Considering the circumstances I can't imagine why you'd want someone like Ness back when we could get a unique rep from Mother 3 such as Claus.
Almost all the rep so far (not to say some Earthbound rep can't show up later) is Mother 3.

Mother 3 character

Mother 3 stage

Mother 3 music

and the Franklin Badge (but that could go either way).

To me Lucas is simply Ness reincarnated for Brawl (considering the moveset) and I'm quite happy with some of the moveset tweaks that occured, and I believe this is Sakurai's way of trying to make "Ness" better than before. I'm not necessarily opposed to Ness himself moreso than I think if there is another Mother rep that it should go to someone who could be more unique, and most likely, from Mother 3.

Ok.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

Wanting Ness back just because he's a veteran from the first game is kinda selfish, especially if you're not even a fan of MOTHER/EarthBound.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

Or don't even know what your talking about

 

[Ginger9001]

You do know they will be bringing in music from tons of games... right?

so I don't see how it effects ness.. realistically it only effects pokey..

I know that. But I'm just sayin'. It's only backing up Mother 3 even more. Now we have a Mother 3 character, level, and now music.

 

[OysterMeister]

When did Sakurai state that the B moves were different enough for them to be different characters? Yes they are different, but to me it's more of a tweaking to Ness' Melee moveset.

Sakurai says that Lucas's PK Fire "is also quite different from Ness’s." So apparently Sakurai feels like changes of this degree are enough. Me, I'd go with his opinion on this.

PK Fire- moves sideways instead of diagonal (really like this tweak)

Like I said before, Sakurai called this "tweaked" move "quite different from Ness’s." So either there's more to this move than we've seen, or your opinion on what makes a move count as a cloned move is different from Sakurai's.

Basically if Ness were to return as it were now he'd be more of a Luigified clone than Luigi himself (Luigi at least had one truly unique special).

Not he wouldn't, because Luigi also shared several standard moves with Mario, and as we all know Lucas's standard moves are all different from Ness's.
There are less moveset similarities between Ness and Lucas than there were between Mario and Luigi.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

From what I see your taking the words "quite different" to literally, when you know the moves are basically the same with tweaks. Regardless of what Sakurai said, it's obvious they are similar.

 

[Ginger9001]

I hate the term "Luigified". The only reason Luigi is similar to Mario is because they are supposed to! They're the Mario Brothers!

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

Exactly. They will have similar styles, they are brothers after all. It makes sense.

 

[OysterMeister]

From what I see your taking the words "quite different" to literally, when you know the moves are basically the same with tweaks. Regardless of what Sakurai said, it's obvious they are similar.

The moves are similar, sure, but how similar? After a cerain point, hasn't a move been tweaked enough to be different?

Let's look at Lucas's PK Fire. First off, the animations differ; Lucas fires from his palms, Ness fires from his fingertips. That right there is proof that Lucas's move isn't cloned from Ness, as all cloned moves share animations.
But look at the rest of the move. The projectile looks the same (a little thunderbolt) but it flies at a different angle and from the picture it appears to explode differently as well. So really, the only parts of this move that remain the same are the name and the little thunderbolt. It seems to me that changes of that degree should be enough to consider the moves separate, or at the very least far, far from clones of each other...

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

The moves are similar, sure, but how similar? After a cerain point, hasn't a move been tweaked enough to be different?

Let's look at Lucas's PK Fire. First off, the animations differ; Lucas fires from his palms, Ness fires from his fingertips. That right there is proof that Lucas's move isn't cloned from Ness, as all cloned moves share animations.
But look at the rest of the move. The projectile looks the same (a little thunderbolt) but it flies at a different angle and from the picture it appears to explode differently as well. So really, the only parts of this move that remain the same are the name and the little thunderbolt. It seems to me that changes of that degree should be enough to consider the moves separate, or at the very least far, far from clones of each other...

You don't ****in get it do you. It's practically still the same **** move. Sure the animations are different, the direction, and etc., but it's still similar. Like it or not it is. There is such things as partial clones as well. Your taking the smallest bit of detail and trying to make it seem as if it's not similar, when despite whatever you may think, they are.

 

[Wolfgang457]

Sakurai says that Lucas's PK Fire "is also quite different from Ness’s." So apparently Sakurai feels like changes of this degree are enough. Me, I'd go with his opinion on this.

He says PK fire is different from the one Ness used in Melee. This doesn't mean much, Ness was nerfed in Melee, he could just as easily be saying how it got upgraded to make it better.

Like I said before, Sakurai called this "tweaked" move "quite different from Ness’s." So either there's more to this move than we've seen, or your opinion on what makes a move count as a cloned move is different from Sakurai's.

There might be more to this tweaked PK fire than we know but at the moment the only real major difference we know is the trajectory similar to how Mario and Luigi's fireballs function. Also the only real different special Luigi had was the green missle putting this on the same par as Luigi's specials.

Not he wouldn't, because Luigi also shared several standard moves with Mario, and as we all know Lucas's standard moves are all different from Ness's.
There are less moveset similarities between Ness and Lucas than there were between Mario and Luigi.

I'll concede that maybe I jumped the gun a bit on that statement, but Luigi also had several different standard moves (stumble punch being my favorite ). The only real standard moves we know are different for sure are his smash attacks and the grab (his Bair is very similar).

I mainly see this whole Lucas thing as Lucas replacing Ness aesthetically with Lucas bringing in Ness' improved moveset to help unnerf him, but that might just be me.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

Not to mention, Lucas and Ness wouldn't have the same standards, they are not brothers or even that close to Mario and Luigi

 

[Wolfgang457]

Not to mention, Lucas and Ness wouldn't have the same standards, they are not brothers or even that close to Mario and Luigi

True but you never know, I could see Lucas using a lot of Ness' non smash standard attacks, such as his dashA, and his Bair is already very similar just once again tweaked to improvement.

 

[vesperview]

The problem here is that they are comparing Lucas to Melee Ness, which is really not even a comparison worth making.

 

[AllanT]

Flint.





Yes.

agreed. flint AND claus would be great!!

 

[Mega-Ridley-Knight-Man]

Sakurai says that Lucas's PK Fire "is also quite different from Ness’s." So apparently Sakurai feels like changes of this degree are enough. Me, I'd go with his opinion on this.



Like I said before, Sakurai called this "tweaked" move "quite different from Ness’s." So either there's more to this move than we've seen, or your opinion on what makes a move count as a cloned move is different from Sakurai's.




Not he wouldn't, because Luigi also shared several standard moves with Mario, and as we all know Lucas's standard moves are all different from Ness's.
There are less moveset similarities between Ness and Lucas than there were between Mario and Luigi.

Luigi fire ball - Is green and moves forward.
Mario Fireball - Is red and bounces.

Pk fire Ness - Has the same effect as Lucas's.
Pk fire Lucas - Is the exact same as Ness except now it moves sideways in the air instead of diagonally *Wow*

Luigi up B - Moves directly upward and has a chance to super hit.
Mario up B - Moves a little diagonally and hits them for coins.

Ness up B - Pk thunder.
Lucas up B - Pk thunder.

Luigi down B - Tornado moves further than Mario's
Mario down B - Tornado doesn't go very far

Ness down B - Absorbs projectile things for health
Lucas down B - The same.

Luigi side B - Shoots sideways as a rocket
Mario side B - Waves cape

Ness B - Moves the flashy light thing hurts
Lucas B - Moves the freezy light thing freezes probably.


This post cares to disagree.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

They are practically the same movesets for Lucas and Ness, so stop trying to deny it.

 

[AsbestosBlatant]

From the screens, you can tell that they aren't the same. PK Thunder moves at least twice as fast or keeps Lucas suspended in the air indefinitely.

PK Freeze has freezing effects, as confirmed, that send the opponent upwards ala freezies if you look at the little impact burst compared to where the frozen character is flying, as compared to PK Flash's multi directional explosion.

Lucas' PK Fire doesn't have a vertical explosion like Ness' does, I don't know why nobody's brought this up yet. Ness' PK Fire is vertical no matter what.

Lucas' PSI Magnet doesn't cover his whole body, it makes him vulnerable from behind and above. It's possible that you might be able to move it, but that's baseless speculation at this point. Either way, it's different than Ness' full body covering.

What's more, the A Moveset is so strikingly different I doubt you could warrant calling them clones. From the little bit we've seen of Lucas in videos, he also runs at a different speed. He's going to play very, very differently from Ness.

 

[DarkDeoxys26]

You guys are assuming too much, yes, we are comparing him to the SSBM Ness because he exists. Ness from SSBB doesn't even exist yet, though you say they're different already, and trust me, since you guys seem so caught up on "if Sakurai says this, it deconfirms this," if Sakurai says the "A" moves are different, they are different. Also, tell me, if we are comparing Lucas to the SSBM Ness is wrong, then how is comparing Mario to the SSBM Luigi correct? I really fail to understand your logic MRKM.

Also, your comparisons make the arguements for us better. You state Mario's Bouncing fire ball and Luigi's Hovering fire ball as two different things, so why isn't PK Fire shooting at different directions different? And don't make the differences between Ness and Lucas so little, PK Freeze is different from PK Flash. As you said, different colors :D, one freezes and one is a super strong attacks, when charged at least. Deny, lol, including that word in any variation just makes me laugh now.

 

[OysterMeister]

You don't ****in get it do you. It's practically still the same **** move. Sure the animations are different, the direction, and etc., but it's still similar. Like it or not it is. There is such things as partial clones as well. Your taking the smallest bit of detail and trying to make it seem as if it's not similar, when despite whatever you may think, they are.

Are you sure you understand what a clone is? It's all in the animations. Clones share animations, it's just the way the game is built.
Two moves with different effects, knockback, and damage that SHARE animations are cloned, but moves with DIFFERENT animations are not cloned, even if they have identical damage, knockback, and effects.
So far as I can tell, Lucas has NONE of Ness's old animations, which means all his moves had to be made from scratch (unlike Luigi, who shared animations with Mario even in some of his specials).
If two moves made from scratch are similar, than the similarities must have been added deliberately.
Lucas isn't a Ness clone (or even a semi-clone) doing his best to be different by tweaking his cloned moves, Lucas is a unique character who is being made similar to Ness. Probably because "They are from the same family of PK users." as Sakurai said.

I'll concede that maybe I jumped the gun a bit on that statement, but Luigi also had several different standard moves (stumble punch being my favorite ). The only real standard moves we know are different for sure are his smash attacks and the grab (his Bair is very similar).

I dunno, his Bair is a meteor smash, which seems pretty different from what Ness had. I could be wrong though. But then, lots of standard moves are similar; Samus, Sheik, and Ganondorf all share a similar rising attack, for instance.

I mainly see this whole Lucas thing as Lucas replacing Ness aesthetically with Lucas bringing in Ness' improved moveset to help unnerf him, but that might just be me.

I'm not so sure that Lucas is an improvement. He's different, and the odds favor him being better, since Ness was so low in Melee, but that could be just coincidence. Sort of like Luigi was to Mario, he was different, but I wouldn't have called him better or worse because of it.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

As I said before, PARTIAL clone. Key word there. I'm not about to sit here and argue over a moveset that is similar and really not that different. You guys are only using the tiniest details to make them appear as if something they're not, different. They are practically the same. I don't care if you have hopes for Ness, but trying to rearrange the obvious isn't going to increase any chances.

 

[AsbestosBlatant]

If by partial you mean less of a clone than a pear apple and a granny smith apple, then sure, why not.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

If by partial you mean less of a clone than a pear apple and a granny smith apple, then sure, why not.

Whatever, I don't really care

 

[AsbestosBlatant]

Whatever, I don't really care

\o/

Spoiler

10char

 

[DarkDeoxys26]

Lol, small details? The blatant facts you guys are using do not support your situation. Saying PK Fire has different animations but are the same moves actually helps us. His attacks have different animations, right? So there, they aren't clones. Ness to Lucas is like Mario to Luigi, but not Mario to Dr. Mario.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

Lol, small details? The blatant facts you guys are using do not support your situation. Saying PK Fire has different animations but are the same moves actually helps us. His attacks have different animations, right? So there, they aren't clones. Ness to Lucas is like Mario to Luigi, but not Mario to Dr. Mario.

Different animations, so what? They have the same name, same effect, but go in a different direction. Not much of a difference. It's still practically the same ****in move, end of story. Move on!

 

[AsbestosBlatant]

Practically nothing. Read my last post about the moves. I thought you were pulling a Squall and playing the "Whatever" card on this issue?

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Lol, small details? The blatant facts you guys are using do not support your situation. Saying PK Fire has different animations but are the same moves actually helps us. His attacks have different animations, right? So there, they aren't clones. Ness to Lucas is like Mario to Luigi, but not Mario to Dr. Mario.

Link's moves animate and act slightly different...


OMFG

OoT Link confirmed for Brawl!

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

Link's moves animate and act slightly different...


OMFG

OoT Link confirmed for Brawl!

Care to counter this Ness supporters?