Ness is out: Come and help those in denial...

[OysterMeister]

As I said before, PARTIAL clone. Key word there. I'm not about to sit here and argue over a moveset that is similar and really not that different. You guys are only using the tiniest details to make them appear as if something they're not, different. They are practically the same. I don't care if you have hopes for Ness, but trying to rearrange the obvious isn't going to increase any chances.

I'm not rearranging the obvious, I'm trying to show the obvious. And the obvious is that Ness and Lucas aren't clones. And no, not partial clones either. Even partial clones have to share animations somewhere in their partially cloned moveset.
Maybe animations are only a tiny detail, but if you're talking about clones then it's also the most important detail. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.


Also, a fun science fact: Did anyone here know that all apples are actually clones? It's true. See, a seed from a granny smith apple will not grow into a granny smith apple tree. So the only way to get another granny smith apple tree is to graft a branch from the granny smith tree onto the roots of another apple tree while it's a sapling. So every apple you eat is a clone. Strange but true.


Sure, I can counter that no problem:
Some of Link's moves are different, yes. He got a few changes in the transition from Melee to Brawl. But many of his moves still have the exact same animations, pulled directly from the Melee code.
In fact, all of the returning veterans so farl retain most of their old animations.

 

[AsbestosBlatant]

Care to counter this Ness supporters?

They didn't name Link something different, did they?

Also notice how in Link's update, he directly deconfirmed the appearance of the Ocarina of Time design by saying "This time around, we've opted to use his Twilight Princess model."

The Lucas update when he was introduced did not say anything like "This time around, we've decided to use Lucas instead of Ness."

Also ditch the smug attitude, it wasn't your argument to begin with.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

I'm not rearranging the obvious, I'm trying to show the obvious. And the obvious is that Ness and Lucas aren't clones. And no, not partial clones either. Even partial clones have to share animations somewhere in their partially cloned moveset.
Maybe animations are only a tiny detail, but if you're talking about clones then it's also the most important detail. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

I never claimed they were complete clones in the first place. The moveset is still stolen, taken, etc. from Ness and nothing is going to change that. It only decreases whatever chances he has left, like it or not, there's nothing you can do about it but wait

They didn't name Link something different, did they?

Also notice how in Link's update, he directly deconfirmed the appearance of the Ocarina of Time design by saying "This time around, we've opted to use his Twilight Princess model."

The Lucas update when he was introduced did not say anything like "This time around, we've decided to use Lucas instead of Ness."

Also ditch the smug attitude, it wasn't your argument to begin with.

Sakurai didn't deconfirm a thing, he just stated he using a different TP model for Link. Get your facts straight. Sakurai never said anything like the words you've just posted. What do you mean name Link something different?

 

[AsbestosBlatant]

http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/characters/link.html
Second update. Maybe my quote wasn't exact, but as far as being "anything like", the first two updates do a good job of showing my point. Also what is it with you and rewording peoples' quotes to try to make it your own? That's really unimpressive.

 

[DarkDeoxys26]

Did his altered moves come with someone else named Link? Link and Link aren't different characters, Ness and Lucas are... Yes, they aren't complete clones so what;s the point of calling them partial clones? Their similar, but they're still different in many other ways they are the same.

 

[OysterMeister]

I never claimed they were complete clones in the first place. The moveset is still stolen, taken, etc. from Ness and nothing is going to change that.

No, not a whole moveset, four moves. Four moves were patterned after another character that Sakurai deemed similar. Outside of the specials ALL of Lucas's moves are his own.

And I wasn't accusing you of calling them complete clones, I was accusing you of calling them partial clones. Which you did, and which still isn't true.

 

[AsbestosBlatant]

Furthermore, were Link's A button moves changed drastically at all since the last game? No. Lucas on the other hand has a completely unique set of A attacks.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/characters/link.html
Second update. Maybe my quote wasn't exact, but as far as being "anything like", the first two updates do a good job of showing my point. Also what is it with you and rewording peoples' quotes to try to make it your own? That's really unimpressive.

What point? Your saying that that deconfirms OoT Link, when it clearly doesn't, b/c "Only Sakurai can deconfirm it." Also what is with you trying to make Ness seem like he has more of a chance when he obviously doesn't? It's really annoying. And when did I ever reword someone's quote? I guess by asking someone to counter something, I reworded it at the same time? Yea *sarcasm*

Furthermore, were Link's A button moves changed drastically at all since the last game? No. Lucas on the other hand has a completely unique set of A attacks.

Lucas on the other hand is not named Ness. He will not do things as Ness will, but he does have Ness's moves and roster spot. As Sakurai stated, his combat style is different, but the moves are similar. You can't deny it. They are similar and they are taken from Ness.

 

[AsbestosBlatant]

You're such a shining example of deductive drought and contradiction that I may have to consider this a pass-time eventually. It's really kinda funny.

Anyway. My point is two-pronged. First off, I was mocking the dwindling number of people who "deconfirm" Ness with the 'up until now' quote, by using an ambiguous phrase in Link's update to deconfirm an obviously non-appearing character who has had absolutely no mention whatsoever (while Ness is full of mention) and who is so obviously not in the game that it borders on parody. It was kind of childish and unorganized, but fun regardless. Second, whereas Link's updates haven't mentioned his obvious predecessor, Lucas' updates have copiously mentioned his colleague. The whole point was that it was just ridiculous to argue "omg link is slightly different from OoT link that means he's confirmed" as being valid or even relevant.

Lucas is not some slight variation on an existing character, he's a completely different character, whose references and presentation hold absolutely no bearing on Ness being in or out.

Also, thank you for consistently backing up our arguments without realizing it. You're a peach.

 

[DarkDeoxys26]

Also what is with you trying to make Ness seem like he has more of a chance when he obviously doesn't? It's really annoying.

Um, lol? It's not annoying when you tell us we're in denial? That's your opinion whether Ness is in or out, because obviously, there are no "facts" to prove him out :/

 

[finalark]

Um, lol? It's not annoying when you tell us we're in denial? That's your opinion whether Ness is in or out, because obviously, there are no "facts" to prove him out :/

Yes there is.

Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series up until now

Ness appeared until now

How many times do I have to say that?

 

[Ginger9001]

Um, lol? It's not annoying when you tell us we're in denial? That's your opinion whether Ness is in or out, because obviously, there are no "facts" to prove him out :/

Indeed. Until it literally "confirms" Ness is out, this debate will never end. Never. xD

 

[KingKraken]

If you look in today's music update (Mother: Porky’s Theme) you will see that Sakurai states "It’s one of the songs representative of Mother 3." He says it represents Mother 3, not the Mother series as a whole. this could mean he will only be using Mother 3 Representation. sorry ness fans.

 

[Ginger9001]

If you look in today's music update (Mother: Porky’s Theme) you will see that Sakurai states "It’s one of the songs representative of Mother 3." He says it represents Mother 3, not the Mother series as a whole. this could mean he will only be using Mother 3 Representation. sorry ness fans.

I just saw this on the "OMG Tonight's Predictions Thread" or w/e! xD

 

[Circus]

If you look in today's music update (Mother: Porky’s Theme) you will see that Sakurai states "It’s one of the songs representative of Mother 3." He says it represents Mother 3, not the Mother series as a whole. this could mean he will only be using Mother 3 Representation. sorry ness fans.

By that logic, THIS could mean that only Ocarina of Time will be represented for the Zelda series.

But wait. . . .

 

[AsbestosBlatant]

Yes there is.

Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series up until now

Ness appeared until now

How many times do I have to say that?

Protip: A button attacks and Handicap appeared until now, too.

 

[Flaming_Wuzzle]

Yes there is.

Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series up until now

Ness appeared until now

How many times do I have to say that?

As many times as you can until you realize that's not what it means. Read the thread instead of just endlessly parroting "UP UNTIL NOW"

 

[adumbrodeus]

Yes there is.

Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series up until now

Ness appeared until now

How many times do I have to say that?

Obviously until you get it through your head that the Japanese site doesn't say "until now". It says "いままで" which is quite a different story.

 

[DeuceBlade]

I wonder what Ness would look like in brawl if he made it.. probably a similar style to Lucas... but without eyebrows.. oh well lets hope he still gets in.

 

[finalark]

Protip: A button attacks and Handicap appeared until now, too.

Until now signifies a change, they changed the style of the A button and handy cap and they changed the Super Smash Bros series but not putting Ness in.

As many times as you can until you realize that's not what it means. Read the thread instead of just endlessly parroting "UP UNTIL NOW"

Really then, what does it mean?

Obviously until you get it through your head that the Japanese site doesn't say "until now". It says "いままで" which is quite a different story.

You care to translate that? Last time I checked it said "Until now."

I eagerly await all of your replies.

 

[Circus]

Until now signifies a change, they changed the style of the A button and handy cap and they changed the Super Smash Bros series but not putting Ness in.



Really then, what does it mean?



You care to translate that? Last time I checked it said "Until now."

I eagerly await all of your replies.

The "up until now" issue has been answered SEVERAL times now, almost every time being by adumbrodeus. It's really a shame that a decent point needs to be brought up about 2309572890374 times in order for other people to get it.

 

[AdmantNESS]

Finalark, Are you really that lazy? Just go back a page or few. Its been answered already far too many times already.

 

[finalark]

Really?

For the last to pages they were talking about is Lucas is a Ness clone or not.

Let me put it this way, in response to something posted on this topic long ago (I'm not going through 119 pages to find it.)

"Until now is used loosely on the Dojo."

Really? Where is it used to loosely?

 

[DeuceBlade]

You guys do realize that finalark is trolling this thread right?

 

[finalark]

so... why are we arguing anyway?

Yeah, some thinks he has a chance, others don't.

To be honest, all this thread has been is the constant spamming of the same points over and over again.

And might I mention that it was made by someone who was BAN?

 

[AdmantNESS]

Hmm...The only way for this thread to die is if a mod closed it. We have a Ness thread already. Oh well...

 

[finalark]

Now only if politics could end like this.

 

[adumbrodeus]

You care to translate that? Last time I checked it said "Until now."

I eagerly await all of your replies.

No, it does not. The closest English translation of "いままで" is "until now", but it does not mean "until now".


The difference between "いままで" and "until now" is "いままで" lacks the connotation of "it will no longer happen". "いままで" just states what has occurred in the past with no reference to what will occur in the future or what is occurring in the present.


If you happen to know anything about verb tenses いままで plus a verb does not form what is equivalent to the imperfect tense whereas "until now" plus a verb forms the English imperfect.


I stated essentially this in greater or lesser detail here, and here, and here, and here, and here, and here, and here, and here, and here.

There are others, but I think this makes my point, many were even in response to you.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

Are you Japanese?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Are you Japanese?

No, I just study it in college. I remember this particular point especially well because my professors love bringing it up in class.

 

[DynamiteSpoony]

*facepalm*

Nitpicky details about the "up until now" quote are fairly irrelevant. What IS relevant is that NESS WILL BE A CLONE OF LUCAS IF HE'S CONFIRMED. So what if there's some tiny difference in PK Fire's range? So what if PK Thunder shoots Lucas a bit farther than Ness? So what if their standard B charge attack is a different color? Their B movesets are virtually IDENTICAL, and no amount of A moveset tweaking will change that.

Now, if there were no better candidate for the second Mother character, there would be no problem here, and nothing would stop Ness from reclaiming his spot in Brawl. However, with absolutely no Mother 2 related news AT ALL (the accidental Snowman music confirmation doesn't count, because it's in all three games. Same goes for the Franklin Badge), all the Mother news having involved the third installment of the series, and Claus having the advantage of NOT being a Lucas clone, I'd say Ness' chances are pretty slim.

He could still make it, but he's got to beat out Claus first. And with two entries in Sakurai's journal (lately I've been hearing four, but I have no way to confirm this), the ability to fill the role of playable Mother villian, not being yet another striped-shirt psychic hero, and a unique moveset, Claus isn't going to go down easily.

 

[OysterMeister]

*facepalm*

Nitpicky details about the "up until now" quote are fairly irrelevant. What IS relevant is that NESS WILL BE A CLONE OF LUCAS IF HE'S CONFIRMED. So what if there's some tiny difference in PK Fire's range? So what if PK Thunder shoots Lucas a bit farther than Ness? So what if their standard B charge attack is a different color? Their B movesets are virtually IDENTICAL, and no amount of A moveset tweaking will change that.

It's not standard (A) moveset tweaking, it's completely separate standard moves.
Based on Sakurai's word: "But Lucas’s physical combat style is quite different. By which I mean, he does not have the same standard moves." we know that Lucas and Ness have different specials. Now, I did the math, and there're around 21 standard moves compared to the four special moves. This alone means that Lucas and Ness can't be considered clones. At all. Their special moves could be absolutely identical (although we know that they aren't), and you still wouldn't be able to call them clones because their standard moves are different.

However, there's another reason they can't be considered clones: their animations. Clones share animations, it's just how the game works. But all of Lucas's moves have different animations from Ness's moves. Yes, even the specials. Yes, even PK Fire.
The returning veterans still retain many of their old animations ripped directly from Melee, so Lucas should have some of Ness's animations. Except he doesn't, so he can't be considered a clone. He can't even be considered a semi-clone without any of Ness's animations.
So Lucas must be a unique character who was purposefully given moves that were similar to Ness's. Probably because, as Sakurai said, "They are from the same family of PK users."

I just wanted to be clear on this. Lucas is many things, but a Ness clone isn't one of them.

 

[GenG]

Lucas has different animations for his moves, but that doesn't mean the moves are different from Ness' in terms of damage, knockback, lag, etc.

They had to make Lucas a bit different to make him look as a newcomer and not as a pallette swap. But it's still a clear replacement.

 

[DynamiteSpoony]

The animations of the special attacks don't make any difference. The point is they're still the same attacks with the same effects. Two characters with the same B moveset, regardless of their A moveset and animations, would be redundant, and if we've learned anything about who's been AT'd (Goroh, Lyn, Waluigi) and who's very likely going to be cut (Dr. Mario, Pichu, Roy), we know that Sakurai's going to be pulling out all the stops to avoid this.

If Claus didn't exist, Ness would be the next best Mother rep. But, as much as I love the series, Mother doesn't need any more than 2 characters.

 

[OysterMeister]

The animations of the special attacks don't make any difference. The point is they're still the same attacks with the same effects. Two characters with the same B moveset, regardless of their A moveset and animations, would be redundant, and if we've learned anything about who's been AT'd (Goroh, Lyn, Waluigi) and who's very likely going to be cut (Dr. Mario, Pichu, Roy), we know that Sakurai's going to be pulling out all the stops to avoid this.

If Claus didn't exist, Ness would be the next best Mother rep. But, as much as I love the series, Mother doesn't need any more than 2 characters.

Luigi shared three of four specials with Mario, as well as quite a few standard moves, but that didn't make him feel redundant. At least, not to me.
And animations matter a lot, because that's the only true way to tell a clone.
I know it's odd, but two moves with different damage, knockback, and effects but the same animations are cloned, while two moves with identical damage, knockback, and effects but different animations aren't cloned.

This brings up questions. Namely, why ISN'T Lucas a Ness clone? It would have been much easier than giving him a new (albeit familiar) movset.

I won't try to argue Ness vs. Claus. They both seem like good choices to me. And Claus has all sorts of cool stuff that needs to be in Brawl, like robot stuff. My only point is that I don't think Ness has been cut, because if he was I'd expect Lucas to be a Ness clone, and he isn't one.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

But he does have Ness moves, regardless. Mario and Luigi are brothers, they share similarities as brothers and differences at the same time. They fight similar, which is why they have some of the same standards. We already know Lucas standard combat skills will be different from Ness, what others are talking about are the specials. Don't keep going back to standards, discuss the specials, b/c that's what everyone is referring too. As for another Mother rep, if anyone, it'll be Claus. I hope he's on the Christmas update, with Sakurai referring to Santa, but it will be Claus

 

[ThoraxeRMG]

As for another Mother rep, if anyone, it'll be Claus. I hope he's on the Christmas update, with Sakurai referring to Santa, but it will be Claus

I may support Claus, but to me Ness over Claus. As I see Ness being a better another MOTHER rep.

 

[OysterMeister]

But he does have Ness moves, regardless. Mario and Luigi are brothers, they share similarities as brothers and differences at the same time. They fight similar, which is why they have some of the same standards. We already know Lucas standard combat skills will be different from Ness, what others are talking about are the specials. Don't keep going back to standards, discuss the specials, b/c that's what everyone is referring too. As for another Mother rep, if anyone, it'll be Claus. I hope he's on the Christmas update, with Sakurai referring to Santa, but it will be Claus

I only mention standard moves because they can't be entirely ignored. For starters, they prove that Ness and Lucas aren't clones, which changes the debate over the special moves quite a bit.
Suddenly, it's not "Lucas has Ness's moveset and these specials prove it", it's "why does Lucas have specials that are so similar to Ness's?"

Personally, I think it's a Mario/Luigi thing. Let me explain:
It makes sense for Mario and Luigi to have similar movesets. They're often portrayed as similar in their games, so it makes sense that this similarity would carry over to their movesets.
So the question is: Does it make sense for Ness and Lucas to be similar?
I would say that the answer is yes. Ness and Lucas have nearly identical roles in their respective games, so there's reason to assume that there could be similarity in their movesets. And Sakurai already said that Ness and Lucas "are from the same family of PK users." so apparently Sakurai also feels they are similar as characters. Is this similarity enough to bring Ness back once we already have Lucas? I'm not sure, but it seems like if it wasn't, it would be sufficient grounds for cloning Ness, which hasn't happened.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

He still has taken special moves from Ness regardless, you can't deny that. I know standard moves can't be ignored, but almost everyone has different combat styles. It's obvious that things aren't in Ness's favor no matter what this argument may be about.

 

[ThoraxeRMG]

He still has taken special moves from Ness regardless, you can't deny that. I know standard moves can't be ignored, but almost everyone has different combat styles. It's obvious that things aren't in Ness's favor no matter what this argument may be about.

But they act in a extremely different manner.
They're not the same in result, just in nature. They're attack style are different as well.