Ness is out: Come and help those in denial...

[vesperview]

No they don't. In the update, Sakurai said: "But Lucas’s physical combat style is quite different. By which I mean, he does not have the same standard moves." So it seems pretty obvious that their special moves are all different.

As for their four special moves, yeah, those are pretty similar, although Sakurai says that Lucas' PK Fire "is also quite different from Ness’s."
So evidently Sakurai feels that the tweaks are enough to qualify them as different moves.

Similar=/=Different

As long as it is PK Fire, Thunder and PSI Magnet, they qualify as moves stolen from Ness, so stop lying to yourself please, plus they're not that different, you're just reaching out for differences to make people believe that Ness would be SO unique if he returned, plus, you can interpret that quote as you prefer, most people just interpret it as, he has one new move and all of the others tweaked, the denial people hoping for Ness, interpret the quote as if the moves were a completely new moveset, they're not and some of the A moves are also very similar.

 

[Wu Tang Gang]

No they don't. In the update, Sakurai said: "But Lucas’s physical combat style is quite different. By which I mean, he does not have the same standard moves." So it seems pretty obvious that their special moves are all different.

As for their four special moves, yeah, those are pretty similar, although Sakurai says that Lucas' PK Fire "is also quite different from Ness’s."
So evidently Sakurai feels that the tweaks are enough to qualify them as different moves.

Did you know that Ness' moves got tweaked to Melee, as well as every single other character? That is RIDICULOUS to assume that. Besides, he does not have the same standard moves could be a mis-translation or something.

 

[DarkDeoxys26]

Similar=/=Different

As long as it is PK Fire, Thunder and PSI Magnet, they qualify as moves stolen from Ness, so stop lying to yourself please, plus they're not that different, you're just reaching out for differences to make people believe that Ness would be SO unique if he returned, plus, you can interpret that quote as you prefer, most people just interpret it as, he has one new move and all of the others tweaked, the denial people hoping for Ness, interpret the quote as if the moves were a completely new moveset, they're not and some of the A moves are also very similar.

Lying to ourselves? No, different may not equal similar, but as long as a tad bit is different, they differe from each other. Yes, they qualify as moves that are similar to Ness, you could even say taken from Ness, but are they executed in such a way that they are clones? No, they aren't, they are different. I hopw you understand that you know NOTHING about Lucas's moveset, so I wouldn't be pulling out "facts" from thin air to support your arguements. Ness has different attacks and that is all that has been stated. It's so obvious that the word "different" was used in the update, different means they have different attacks if any at all, so they're not the same. We're not in denial, thank you :D

Did you know that Ness' moves got tweaked to Melee, as well as every single other character? That is RIDICULOUS to assume that. Besides, he does not have the same standard moves could be a mis-translation or something.

Oh really, that could be a mis-translation but the up until now state ment is not. Right, our arguements are stomped into nothingness but your arguements shine ever so brightly. Moves CAN be changed, but they don't have to. What are we assuming?

 

[Wu Tang Gang]

Oh really, that could be a mis-translation but the up until now state ment is not. Right, our arguements are stomped into nothingness but your arguements shine ever so brightly. Moves CAN be changed, but they don't have to. What are we assuming?

Can you take a joke instead of taking it like an insult?

Moves are naturally changed, every single one was tweaked one way or another. So, it's illogical that PK Thunder and PK Fire were changed specifically for Lucas. All they did was use Ness' frame and change a few move animation.

 

[vesperview]

Lying to ourselves? No, different may not equal similar, but as long as a tad bit is different

Tad bit? They're practically the same moves, the fact is, they are more similar than they are different.

Yes, they qualify as moves that are similar to Ness, you could even say taken from Ness, but are they executed in such a way that they are clones?

No, in a way where you could tell they're way too similar and there is no way for you to know that Ness wouldn't have gotten those tweaks if he were in Brawl, which by common sense he would have.

you know NOTHING about Lucas's moveset

As if the idiot I'm replying to already played Brawl and mastered Lucas as his main right? You gotta be kidding, everything is similar enough to know that Ness wouldn't be original if he returned.

Ness has different attacks and that is all that has been stated.

Ness also had different attacks in 64 and was added a new attack in Melee and the others were tweaked or nerfed, does that mean the other attacks are not the same as 64? NO!

It's so obvious that the word "different" was used in the update, different means they have different attacks if any at all, so they're not the same.

It's also obvious that Sakurai doesn't want people to think that Lucas is just a rehash of Ness and that he was just a lazy idiot who just gave Lucas, Ness's entire moveset, therefore wants to state whatever differences they may have, those differences though are not drastic, with some common sense you would know that.

We're not in denial

You keep telling yourself that, it might come true one day.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

The only thing that is different is the smash attacks and regular punching. The specials are practically the same.

 

[shadenexus18]

I'm....not really a fan of Ness. In fact, I want to see Poo more than anything.

Still though, Sakurai is mindgaming us all! No way would he replace a veteran from Smash 64. I think Ness is coming back with a tweaked moveset and who knows, he might even preform better than Lucas.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

I'm....not really a fan of Ness. In fact, I want to see Poo more than anything.

Still though, Sakurai is mindgaming us all! No way would he replace a veteran from Smash 64. I think Ness is coming back with a tweaked moveset and who knows, he might even preform better than Lucas.

Funny. B/c Sakurai stated in the journal that not all vets are returning.

 

[vesperview]

I really wish the Ness supporters weren't just some biased fanboys who haven't even played his game, seriously, you make Ness look bad, most of his fanbase is due to Smash, Lucas will garner the same amount of followers and even more if Mother 3 is released in America, truth is you're all so keen on Ness returning only because he was in the first game, well, fighting games cut characters all the time and to think being in the first game makes you invulnerable to such outcome is just ridiculous, just be happy there's a replacement and STFU!

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

Few of them happen to have sense though(unlike DB)

 

[vesperview]

Few of them happen to have sense though(unlike DB)

Well, I'm talking specifically about two people.

 

[finalark]

I really wish the Ness supporters weren't just some biased fanboys who haven't even played his game, seriously, you make Ness look bad, most of his fanbase is due to Smash, Lucas will garner the same amount of followers and even more if Mother 3 is released in America, truth is you're all so keen on Ness returning only because he was in the first game, well, fighting games cut characters all the time and to think being in the first game makes you invulnerable to such outcome is just ridiculous, just be happy there's a replacement and STFU!

I agree with this guy.

The day the full roster is shown is going to be a fun day...

 

[Rhubarbo]

Okay, most signs point to Ness being out.

1) Lucas was intended to replace him in Melee

2) Their special moves are essentially identical (don't go Luigi-ing me. That is a different circumstance, plus he will likely have a revamped Melee moveset).

3) THE SITE BLATANTLY STAETES THAT NESS IS...OUT!

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

I agree with this guy.

The day the full roster is shown is going to be a fun day...

Indeed it is.

 

[DeuceBlade]

I really wish the Ness supporters weren't just some biased fanboys who haven't even played his game, seriously, you make Ness look bad, most of his fanbase is due to Smash, Lucas will garner the same amount of followers and even more if Mother 3 is released in America, truth is you're all so keen on Ness returning only because he was in the first game, well, fighting games cut characters all the time and to think being in the first game makes you invulnerable to such outcome is just ridiculous, just be happy there's a replacement and STFU!

I agree with this guy.

The day the full roster is shown is going to be a fun day...

Indeed it is.

If Ness is out... why do you feel the need to keep repeating your selfs over and over... to you guys Ness is out.. and you would think that since you have "jumped to the conclusion" you would move on with your lives (if you even have any). but no... you insist on arguing about the same topic to which you believe you know all deh knowledge about...

You think Ness is out? fine.. now go on to another topic.. there is no reason to continue to try and convince people since you have already convinced yourselves...

The Ness supports however can keep on supporting him due to our hope, now if we are wrong or right should not matter to you guys since in your eyes hes already out.

The only true reason you people come to this thread is to start arguments and troll.. how many times can you say "Ness is out cuz of Lucas' moveset & up until nowz", ok you have made your point now move on.

for brawl!



Support Ness, or move on.. (I can only expect the same people to keep saying hes out because they have nothing else to do in their lives besides post the same things over and over)

and yes the day the full roster is revealed it will be a fun day for all of us

 

[vesperview]

If Ness is out... why do you feel the need to keep repeating your selfs over and over... to you guys Ness is out.. and you would think that since you have "jumped to the conclusion" you would move on with your lives (if you even have any). but no... you insist on arguing about the same topic to which you believe you know all deh knowledge about...

What does having a life have to do with you being a stupid idiot who only resolves in saying "I believe Ness has a chance, that doesn't need facts"? Please, you've been doing a terrible job at being logical, let alone pretend all of us are trolls just because your logic fails, hahaha, you're such an idiot.

 

[ThoraxeRMG]

Well, I'm talking specifically about two people.

And they are?

 

[DeuceBlade]

What does having a life have to do with you being a stupid idiot who only resolves in saying "I believe Ness has a chance, that doesn't need facts"? Please, you've been doing a terrible job at being logical, let alone pretend all of us are trolls just because your logic fails, hahaha, you're such an idiot.

Of course you would be the first person to prove my point, thank you mr. predictable.



On Topic: If you support Ness, go to the Ness support thread, although you may find people trolling it also is good for sharing Ness ideas...

We are not in denial.

 

[vesperview]

Of course you would be the first person to prove my point, thank you mr. predictable.

As if you haven't proven you're an idiot with every single one of your replies, how ironic for you to call me Mr predictable, when you always end up doing the same ****ing thing.

 

[DarkDeoxys26]

He never said he wans't, now did he? You guys are all predictable(not ALL <-<), trust me. I only find posts ending with the usual you're facts are completely illogical, crap, and you're an idiot, logic fails, in denial, and something else about your mother. Oh, whups, I didn't mean to say that. I'd have to say you guys fail at understanding the point that you are going against the fact that we want Ness to be in? I mean, huh? You are trying to prove an opinion wrong? Well, I should have gone on with my absence in this topic, since this really is getting nowhere, lulz.

 

[finalark]

We are not in denial.

That's one of the funniest things I have every seen you say, DB.

 

[ThoraxeRMG]

That's one of the funniest things I have every seen you say, DB.

Grammar mistakes at it's finest.

 

[DarkDeoxys26]

That's one of the funniest things I have every seen you say, DB.

And that is the smartest thing I've heard you say, finalark. Ooh, I'm getting mean now D: I wish this would happen in real life where these arguements would work better :D

 

[adumbrodeus]

I agree with this guy.

The day the full roster is shown is going to be a fun day...

Which is why I never argue whether a character is going to be in or out, just whether the character seems to have a shot given the time.

Because new information doesn't change the fact that this update did not deconfirm Ness.


Though, I do admit, I would get a degree of perverse pleasure from being able to rub it in Deuceblade's face that he was wrong, even though I want Ness to return.

3) THE SITE BLATANTLY STAETES THAT NESS IS...OUT!

Erm, no. Read earlier in the thread, there was a nice discussion about this, that update does not deconfirm Ness, the English site is mistranslated.

See MetaSonic64's position for the logical position for one opposed to Ness' return.

 

[finalark]

And that is the smartest thing I've heard you say, finalark. Ooh, I'm getting mean now D: I wish this would happen in real life where these arguements would work better :D

I wish this was real life where I didn't make a typo every now and then.

Oh, and you spelled arguments wrong.

 

[Yitik]

You guys just need to get Firefox; it fixes your errors like MS Word . Then you don't have to worry about this junk giving you a bad name.

Anyway, I'm a little confused about the argument on each side. Personally, I'm still not convinced that Ness can be in without being a clone of Lucas, seeing as they're both so similar, but let's just have a nice little compilation so I can see. Let's get one Ness For Brawl supporter and believer, and one antagonist to each summarize all their points. Then we can get a real debate up and going again without having to repeat ourselves.

Sound good?

 

[DeuceBlade]

You guys just need to get Firefox; it fixes your errors like MS Word . Then you don't have to worry about this junk giving you a bad name.

Anyway, I'm a little confused about the argument on each side. Personally, I'm still not convinced that Ness can be in without being a clone of Lucas, seeing as they're both so similar, but let's just have a nice little compilation so I can see. Let's get one Ness For Brawl supporter and believer, and one antagonist to each summarize all their points. Then we can get a real debate up and going again without having to repeat ourselves.

Sound good?

This won't work... because then the anti-ness will say our points are dumb, or something biased like that.

 

[OysterMeister]

You guys just need to get Firefox; it fixes your errors like MS Word . Then you don't have to worry about this junk giving you a bad name.

Anyway, I'm a little confused about the argument on each side. Personally, I'm still not convinced that Ness can be in without being a clone of Lucas, seeing as they're both so similar, but let's just have a nice little compilation so I can see. Let's get one Ness For Brawl supporter and believer, and one antagonist to each summarize all their points. Then we can get a real debate up and going again without having to repeat ourselves.

Sound good?

The way I see it, everything comes down to three questions:

1)Does the 'up until now' line on the Dojo mean Ness is out?
2)Does Lucas have Ness' moveset?
3)Is there a reason Sakurai would want to replace Ness?

The first two questions have ironclad arguments in favor of Ness.
Let's start with the 'up until now' line. As adumbrodeus has repeatedly stated, the phrase 'up until now' has different connotations in Japanese than it does in English.
In Japanese, 'up until now' refers only to the past, and is neutral when concerning the present, so Sakurai's use of the phrase was purely to mention Ness without revealing his status on the Brawl roster. 'Up until now' seems to deconfirm Ness on the English sites, but this is because the phrase picks up an extra connotation during the transition from English to Japanese.

And the second question? No, despite the similarities in their specials, Lucas does not have Ness's moveset. Not at all.
The proof is in the update. Sakurai say in the update that "Lucas’s physical combat style is quite different. By which I mean, he does not have the same standard moves."
So we know that Lucas's standard moves (around 83% of his moveset) are unique.
But what about the specials? While similar, these specials do contain differences of a Mario/Luigi nature. But there are those who claim that these differences aren't enough, and that Lucas's moves are basically cloned from Ness.
So are these moves cloned, or are they different? How do we decide? We check the update of course. Sakurai says that Lucas's PK Fire "is also quite different from Ness’s." So apparently Sakurai feels like changes of this degree are enough. Me, I'd go with his opinion on this.

And the final question... which I don't have much of a case against. Sakurai DID want to replace Ness with Lucas in Melee, this is true, we know it from the Melee page. The question is did he still want to? And I can't really answer that, as I don't know why he wanted to replace Ness in the first place. Was is due to a lack of development time? Did Sakurai only want one Earthbound rep? Does he just prefer Lucas? I don't know. All I can say is that Brawl isn't Melee, and that it's more than possible that between six years, a huge development team, and a lerger budget, Sakurai has a change of opinion.

 

[TheOfficialSonicFanboy]

I really don't know what there is to argue about other then each sides' biased opinion. Just wait till the game is released to see if Ness is truly out or not.
While we have many facts pointing for Ness being out ("Up until now", Lucas intending to replace Ness in SSBM, and old) we also have the same facts pointing in the other direction ("Up until now" taken differently; Lucas wasn't there then but is now, therefore Ness stays; Ness is classic and therefore in).
Sorry about extreme use of the run on sentence, but this is one argument no one will win until the game comes out. Any argument for either side can and will be twisted to whoever's biased opinion.
Just wait till the game comes out. Either way Lucas and/or Ness will be awesome.

 

[DeuceBlade]

I really don't know what there is to argue about other then each sides' biased opinion. Just wait till the game is released to see if Ness is truly out or not.
While we have many facts pointing for Ness being out ("Up until now", Lucas intending to replace Ness in SSBM, and old) we also have the same facts pointing in the other direction ("Up until now" taken differently; Lucas wasn't there then but is now, therefore Ness stays; Ness is classic and therefore in).
Sorry about extreme use of the run on sentence, but this is one argument no one will win until the game comes out. Any argument for either side can and will be twisted to whoever's biased opinion.
Just wait till the game comes out. Either way Lucas and/or Ness will be awesome.

This post is full of logic, and a non biased point of view... to bad others can't think like this..

 

[Flaming_Wuzzle]

This post is full of logic, and a non biased point of view... to bad others can't think like this..

Nice work, you're going to get his post ignored purely because you've agreed with it.

 

[Black/Light]

Erm, no. Read earlier in the thread, there was a nice discussion about this, that update does not deconfirm Ness, the English site is mistranslated.

The english site has the closest translation you can logicaly make from the Japanese site. . .

 

[OysterMeister]

The english site has the closest translation you can logicaly make from the Japanese site. . .

Closest, yes. But exact? No. 'Up until now' has slightly different connotations in Japanese and English, and they just don't carry over in the translation. It's nobodies fault, it's just that the two languages aren't identical in this respect, so a perfect translation is impossible.

 

[adumbrodeus]

The english site has the closest translation you can logicaly make from the Japanese site. . .

Mistranslation is simply an incorrect translation, in other words a translation that differs substantively from the original words. I already covered this, while it might be the closest translation possible, it is NOT an accurate translation, which is what matters. Realistically speaking, whether it's the best possible translation only matters when pointing fingers which is a pretty useless exercise anyway, unless you can effect change, practically speaking, all that matters to us is how accurate the translation is.


The closest translation is quite simply, not close enough to the Japanese, it adds something not originally there, something that's lack was crucial to the meaning.

Closest, yes. But exact? No. 'Up until now' has slightly different connotations in Japanese and English, and they just don't carry over in the translation. It's nobodies fault, it's just that the two languages aren't identical in this respect, so a perfect translation is impossible.

Just one little caveat, I know this is what you meant but, it's not that "up until now" has different connotations in Japanese, it's that the phrase used, "いままで" doesn't actually mean "until now", "until now" is simply the closest English translation of the phrase "いままで".

Again, it's just a slight linguistic caveat.

 

[Deleted member]

1)Does the 'up until now' line on the Dojo mean Ness is out?

YES

2)Does Lucas have Ness' moveset?

YES

3)Is there a reason Sakurai would want to replace Ness?

F*CK YES IT DOES

 

[adumbrodeus]

F*CK YES IT DOES

F*** NO IT DOESN'T.

"いままで" does not mean "until now".

Kindly realize that the only reason that people would be making outlandish-sounding statements like "does "until now" mean "until now"?" is if there was some prior discussion going on and there was actually some fine point debated, which means you have to READ.


Reading is essential.

 

[Ginger9001]

All I can say....is that the music for today ain't helping Ness with sh*t. xD

 

[Yigguth]

I know it's been said a million times but I'll say it once more
Lucas has Ness' moves.
Sakurai said no clones in Brawl.
Ness is out.

 

[AsbestosBlatant]

Ugh.
The article in which Sakurai "said" that was the same article that deconfirmed Ice Climbers.

 

[DeuceBlade]

All I can say....is that the music for today ain't helping Ness with sh*t. xD

You do know they will be bringing in music from tons of games... right?

so I don't see how it effects ness.. realistically it only effects pokey..