Ness is out: Come and help those in denial...

[GenG]

But they act in a extremely different manner.
They're not the same in result, just in nature. They're attack style are different as well.

Yet their overall styles could be exactly the same and thus making them redundant to an extent.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

But they act in a extremely different manner.
They're not the same in result, just in nature. They're attack style are different as well.

As I said before in my post, they are still taken. All character have their own style at doing combat as well. As in acting in an extremely different manner, no, there's nothing extremely different about it. It's practically the same move tweaked to go into a different direction. That's not close to extremely different. Sonic and Bowser are extremely different, Ness and Lucas are similar in specials(don't mention standards again, I'm not referring to them, but I know about them).

 

[error_alt_delete]

I cant believe I have to repeate myself over this, ness is conidered out for a plethora of reasons that, if seperate, wouldnt have that much effect but because they are togeather, they have alot more power, here are the reasons I consider him cut:
1.lucas was released before ness: nintendo has no reason to put lucas before ness. as far as we know, veterans are always shown before newcomers. the same goes for those who are more relevent to the series.

2.lucas shares a extremely similar set of B moves: this is a double hitter, 1 factor is that this could essentialy make people consider lucas a clone of ness, or vice versa. 2 is that lucas was VERY easy to make completely different than ness, so why make him so similar?

3.mother 3 seems to be getting the focus this time around: it is obvious this is whats happening so I shouldnt have to give evidense for this.

4.claus is from mother three: not only is claus from mother three, but he was on the polls, is a villain, can be completely unique, and fits the same feel as whats going on with the earthbound in smash so far. ness has to go against all of the positive reinforcement that claus has with all that he has againt him.

5.the "up until now" comment, due to what I have stated here seems to mean ness is out. and if you look at the way that it is used for the handy cap update, I think it means the same thing. when it was used for the handy cap update, it meant they replaced the old system with this new one(which is the case) and the same could be what happened to ness, or is what happened.

6.ness was in the last smashes: due to many of the clones getting cut, this seems to hold no water. as many of the clones were "in the last smash" but arnt returning.

7.ness was in the original 12: this realy has no effect on his odds, jigglypuff was also in the original 12, but only because of his popularity from the series. and he may be replaced by lucario because he isnt as popular any more, while pikachu+mewtwo+lucario are. and pikachu may also have been made popular by the show, but he is now argueably the "main representative" of the series, so he is safe from the loss of popularity problem(which pikachu hasnt had yet).

I basicaly think ness is out because of the absolutely huge amount of evidence that is against him. if you think he can still get in, then there is nothing I can say that is realy in his favor.

 

[ThoraxeRMG]

Yet their overall styles could be exactly the same and thus making them redundant to an extent.

Same thing goes to Mario/Luigi.

As I said before in my post, they are still taken.

And I said, They act extremely Differently

All character have their own style at doing combat as well.

True, too bad that Ike's Final Smash is kinda a rip off of Link's.

As in acting in an extremely different manner, no, there's nothing extremely different about it.

So you're saying both of Ness' and Lucas' PK Fire has the same result?

It's practically the same move tweaked to go into a different direction.

But different.

Ness and Lucas are similar in specials

But different in result. Anyways, *Points* Go import MOTHER 3!

 

[GenG]

You overquoted me :/

And no, Mario and Luigi styles weren't that similar in Melee. Luigi is floatier and his combat flows in different manner despite sharing many moves. We even don't know if Luigi will be the same as he was in Melee.

Lucas seems to be Ness with tweaked moves. Floaty movement, weird doble jump, same special moves. At least, compared to Melee Ness. Different A moves here and there wouldn't change the overall combat style if these moves still pulls people to the same angles for comboing and such. That's what makes a combat style and not the animation of the moves.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

Same thing goes to Mario/Luigi.



And I said, They act extremely Differently



True, too bad that Ike's Final Smash is kinda a rip off of Link's.



So you're saying both of Ness' and Lucas' PK Fire has the same result?



But different.



But different in result. Anyways, *Points* Go import MOTHER 3!

1. Mario and Luigi are brothers, they are bound to have similarities
2. They don't act extremely differently
3. Blame Sakurai
4. They set the opponent on fire, the move goes in different directions(in the air) on the
ground, no they don't go in different directions
5. "Different" directions, but same move regardless
6. Only b/c of basica combat styles, that every character seems to vary in.

 

[error_alt_delete]

Same thing goes to Mario/Luigi.

mario and luigi are very different in melee, and they are only going to be more different in the next game. they however have always had similar moves, lucas and ness havnt, so they have no exuse to be made so similar when they clearly could have been different.

And I said, They act extremely Differently
they act different A move wise, but what about B move wise? they seem pretty similar in that area.


True, too bad that Ike's Final Smash is kinda a rip off of Link's.
you got me there, however how different can you make two different sword fighters moves? ness and lucas however can still be ALOT more differentiated. and no, link could not turn into wolf link as a FS due to the fact that he needs midna to do so.


So you're saying both of Ness' and Lucas' PK Fire has the same result?
yes, yes they do. the burn their opponents by sending a tiny lighting bolt at them. the only changed the angle of the attact and the pillar of fire.


But different.
not different enough, it is also called PK fire as well. it is the same move(as stated on the site by name), just tweaked.


But different in result. Anyways, *Points* Go import MOTHER 3!

why? even if I was to import mother 3, it still wouldnt make it a different move.

I typed into your quote out of laziness.

 

[adumbrodeus]

1.lucas was released before ness: nintendo has no reason to put lucas before ness. as far as we know, veterans are always shown before newcomers. the same goes for those who are more relevent to the series.

There is no reason whatsoever to assume that. From a marketing standandpoint it's better to show a mix first.

]5.the "up until now" comment, due to what I have stated here seems to mean ness is out. and if you look at the way that it is used for the handy cap update, I think it means the same thing. when it was used for the handy cap update, it meant they replaced the old system with this new one(which is the case) and the same could be what happened to ness, or is what happened.

This has been brought up endlessly, on it's on merits "up until now" means nothing as far as Ness is concerned because it's a mistranslation (still the best possible, but that doesn't mean it gets accorss the correct ideas).

I brought this up quite extensively.

6.ness was in the last smashes: due to many of the clones getting cut, this seems to hold no water. as many of the clones were "in the last smash" but arnt returning.

Why are we assuming the clones are gone?

It's more probable that some were given unique movesets but are returning.





As much as I hate to say it, I don't nessisarily disagree with your overall conclusion (low chance for Ness, because he does seem to be in hot water), but your individual points in many cases are off.

 

[DarkDeoxys26]

1. Mario and Luigi are brothers, they are bound to have similarities
Lucas and Ness are from the same famiy of PK Users, and they are bound to not?

2. They don't act extremely differently
3. Blame Sakurai
4. They set the opponent on fire, the move goes in different directions(in the air) on the ground, no they don't go in different directions
So you're telling me Ness should just shoot his PK Fire into the ground one centimeter in front of him...

5. "Different" directions, but same move regardless
Mario and Luigi's fireballs go in "different" directions, but ame move regardless.

6. Only b/c of basica combat styles, that every character seems to vary in.

They are different :D

 

[thedup]

I think the effects of the two pk fires seem quite different, it actually looks like lucas' has knockback from an explosion. I much prefer his animation

not taking a side though, personally I loved ness in the first game, and still used him in the second, but I could care less whether he's back or not. defninitely going to use lucas though

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

I may support Claus, but to me Ness over Claus. As I see Ness being a better another MOTHER rep.

Ness wouldn't be a better MOTHER rep than Claus. Claus gives us a villain and variety. Ness doesn't put anything new on the table.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

They are different :D

Not really. Other than standard moves, they aren't that different, and I'm tired of arguing what's so obvious. Case closed.

 

[DarkDeoxys26]

What's so obvious is your opinion. Don't say OTHER than standard moves, because then you are just taking a specific part of it to make it in your favor. And the case is closed just because you would like the last word.

I believe that you think Ness is OBVIOUSLY out, so why haven't stopped arguing yet?

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

What's so obvious is your opinion. Don't say OTHER than standard moves, because then you are just taking a specific part of it to make it in your favor. And the case is closed just because you would like the last word.

I believe that you think Ness is OBVIOUSLY out, so why haven't stopped arguing yet?

It not my opinion, it's your ignorance to see something and a fact. I can say "other than standard moves" if I want to, b/c I'm clearly not referring to it. The case is closed, b/c it's basically not worth arguing. I do think Ness is out, why do you continue to argue when even you know his chances are low?

 

[DarkDeoxys26]

I DON'T know, that is the point all along. We don't KNOW Ness is out... you're making him seem like he's kicked out already and that we are in denial about Ness being out. Don't contradict yourself and say that he has a chance now, even if it is little, saying he has a chance means we are not in denial, nor wrong about Ness having a chance. What's obvious about anything is for an independent mind to judge. You like to say I'm ignorant, yet when I say anything against you it's just an opinion and wrong or brittle and weak, am I right? Well I'm calling you ignorant right now, but is it going to affect you? No, it's not, so why go to the point to tell me I am. If you think Ness is out and that it's not worth it for me to argue anymore, you can go ahead and leave.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

I DON'T know, that is the point all along. We don't KNOW Ness is out... you're making him seem like he's kicked out already and that we are in denial about Ness being out. Don't contradict yourself and say that he has a chance now, even if it is little, saying he has a chance means we are not in denial, nor wrong about Ness having a chance. What's obvious about anything is for an independent mind to judge. You like to say I'm ignorant, yet when I say anything against you it's just an opinion and wrong or brittle and weak, am I right? Well I'm calling you ignorant right now, but is it going to affect you? No, it's not, so why go to the point to tell me I am. If you think Ness is out and that it's not worth it for me to argue anymore, you can go ahead and leave.

As I said before, I stated my argument. I've been saying Ness had a chance, though it was a small one. My argument is that he won't appear in the final game and I stick to that until a Ness update proves otherwise. And if you want to talk about ignorance, look at all the times where we brought FACTS to back up our arguments and you called them "opinions"! Doesn't feel too good when we do it to you, does it Mr. Supporter? I don't have to leave, and when I said wasn't worth arguing, I meant the whole "Similar or Non Similar Move" argument. It's pointless and obviously going nowhere.

 

[DarkDeoxys26]

As I said before, I stated my argument. I've been saying Ness had a chance, though it was a small one. My argument is that he won't appear in the final game and I stick to that until a Ness update proves otherwise. And if you want to talk about ignorance, look at all the times where we brought FACTS to back up our arguments and you called them "opinions"! Doesn't feel too good when we do it to you, does it Mr. Supporter? I don't have to leave, and when I said wasn't worth arguing, I meant the whole "Similar or Non Similar Move" argument. It's pointless and obviously going nowhere.

You're arguement is that he WON'T, which means 100% he's out until you find something that proves he's in. Well we say he has a CHANCE to be in until we find something that proves him out otherwise, yet you continue to bash us with more arguements. If you think there is no chance for him to return until blatantly proven, then why bother to argue? You bring FACTS into the arguements, yet you bend them until they favor your words. And uh, no, I never said any of my statements were facts, unless I just quoted Sakurai's words and stated my opinions upon that. I don't even know what you are calling an opinion, because I feel fine, thank you. I said CAN go ahead and leave, not gtfo. If you want to talk about arguements going nowhere, it's this whole thing... there has been more than, iono, 20 pages of arguing, yet has anyone's opinions changed? I think not, so I'm asking you, why are you not dropping this altogether based on your logic that this is pointless and obviously going nowhere? We already stated the fact that we believe in Ness until he is proven out by Sakurai himself or the game much too long ago.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

You're arguement is that he WON'T, which means 100% he's out until you find something that proves he's in. Well we say he has a CHANCE to be in until we find something that proves him out otherwise, yet you continue to bash us with more arguements. If you think there is no chance for him to return until blatantly proven, then why bother to argue? You bring FACTS into the arguements, yet you bend them until they favor your words. And uh, no, I never said any of my statements were facts, unless I just quoted Sakurai's words and stated my opinions upon that. I don't even know what you are calling an opinion, because I feel fine, thank you. I said CAN go ahead and leave, not gtfo. If you want to talk about arguements going nowhere, it's this whole thing... there has been more than, iono, 20 pages of arguing, yet has anyone's opinions changed? I think not, so I'm asking you, why are you not dropping this altogether based on your logic that this is pointless and obviously going nowhere? We already stated the fact that we believe in Ness until he is proven out by Sakurai himself or the game much too long ago.

How about this. We can let this thread die, something I've hoped for a long time, b/c I'm sick and tired of arguing the same things over and over. The same things are brought up every single argument. Sometimes you'll even find this thread getting no post and then out of nowhere, some supporter or nonsupporter revives it to start another argument and it's usually the same one. I'm willing to drop this if you and the supporters are. I just don't care anymore.

 

[DarkDeoxys26]

I doubt it'll die :/ There are too many people still caught up in this. I suggest it to be locked maybe, or the title changed, because supporters probably find it offensive, which fuels their arguements.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Just b/c it isn't good doesn't mean he won't do it. He's practically stated in a journal entry that not all vets will be returning as well. Just b/c you feel that his subtle messages is a bad way of deconfirming doesn't mean that your opinion will stop him from doing it.

It's not a bad way of deconfirming, it's not a deconfirmation at all. Once it's open to interpretation it's not 100% anymore, which is not a deconfirmation.


However subtle messages are good for hinting that characters will not appear (which is what I think you were getting at anyway).

 

[DeuceBlade]

I think if Sakurai was deconfirming Ness, he would have expressed it more than just.. "up until now". When Sakurai says something he usually tries to put emphasis on the big and small things making sure not to leave things out. this is just an observation.. i could be wrong.

 

[vesperview]

Lol, Lucas has a bat I'm wondering how you're going to argue that.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Lol, Lucas has a bat I'm wondering how you're going to argue that.

So, is this Lucas' Forward Smash?

If it is, that looks bad for Ness....

 

[Lord Viper]

Only thing they could argue about is that it's a homerun bat, lol.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Only thing they could argue about is that it's a homerun bat, lol.

As I put in the other thread, after he uses it, it vanishes...

Meaning, that HAS to be one of his Smash attacks!!!

 

[vesperview]

No, that's like the people arguing that the ropesnake was an item too, it's obviously a move just like Ness's.

 

[Lord Viper]

As I put in the other thread, after he uses it, it vanishes...

Meaning, that HAS to be one of his Smash attacks!!!

Dang, well that's pretty much it for Ness huh.

 

[SmashBro99]

RIP Ness. =\

 

[PBalfredo]

Not a bat.
A stick!

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

Not a bat.
A stick!

The point is, it's the same move....Whether it's a bat or not doesn't really matter


(Lucas does equip sticks in the game though)


It still is the same attack though

 

[OysterMeister]

I dunno, we get two of Lucas' moves in the trailer, one of which is very like Ness and one of which is very unlike Ness.
Incidentally, Mario and Luigi shared two of their three smash attacks. Not that I'm implying anything, mind you.
Seriously guys, if the specials being similar didn't convince those who think Ness has a chance, why would a forward smash?


Edit: ooh, that's neat that it's a stick. Doesn't really change the move too much, but that's still a good catch. I never would've seen that leaf.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

I dunno, we get two of Lucas' moves in the trailer, one of which is very like Ness and one of which is very unlike Ness.
Incidentally, Mario and Luigi shared two of their three smash attacks. Not that I'm implying anything, mind you.
Seriously guys, if the specials being similar didn't convince those who think Ness has a chance, why would a forward smash?

Not all of Kirby's attacks are the same as in Melee,

Lucas has slight differences from Ness, to nerf or strengthen him from Melee for balance

 

[orintemple]

I dunno, we get two of Lucas' moves in the trailer, one of which is very like Ness and one of which is very unlike Ness.
Incidentally, Mario and Luigi shared two of their three smash attacks. Not that I'm implying anything, mind you.
Seriously guys, if the specials being similar didn't convince those who think Ness has a chance, why would a forward smash?

That spinning attack they show is just like Ness' Nair except with extra hits.(or so it looked to me)

 

[PBalfredo]

I know, PsychoIncarnate. Just pointing it out.

Really, as long as we get Claus, I'm perfectly fine if Ness is out. I'd rather have two unique EarthBound reps than Ness and Luigi-Ness.

 

[OysterMeister]

That spinning attack they show is just like Ness' Nair except with extra hits.(or so it looked to me)

Possibly, it's not on screen for very long. Although Lucas ends it upside-down on the ground when he lands, and to my knowledge Ness never spun head over heals. Also, he's traveling forward while he does it, so I'm thinking it might in fact be his Fair.

 

[Masque]

That spinning attack they show is just like Ness' Nair except with extra hits.(or so it looked to me)

My thoughts exactly. The wooden stick is Lucas' answer to Ness's wooden bat, and their respective NAirs are just about the same thing (except Lucas' NAir is cooler).

 

[Flaming_Wuzzle]

Yeah, definitely not liking Ness's chances of coming back now. I'm still not going to say there's zero chance, but at this point it's near zero.

 

[Brawler360]

Even though Ness is kind of cool, I say Lucas is a decent replacement.

They should put Ness in as an alternate Costume for Lucas though.

 

[shinhed-echi]

I know, PsychoIncarnate. Just pointing it out.

Really, as long as we get Claus, I'm perfectly fine if Ness is out. I'd rather have two unique EarthBound reps than Ness and Luigi-Ness.

QFAT!!

I won't complain at all since Lucas will play like Ness.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

Possibly better