Ness is out: Come and help those in denial...

[PrettyGoodYear]

in the words of the famous moderators
yes. back when Melee came out it was pm;y two years after the n64 version, it was rushed and yes it was limited by the capability of the gamecube disc, memory wise

now it's been how many years since melee?? these things happen exponentially. With the other mother game out, there's no need to limit representation of a series to one game(the most recent one), if that were true then we'd have seen new popular pokemon as well perhaps some characters from the gb zelda's

and isn't mother a franchise that sakurai personally favors?? do you guys remember that there were clones in melee? they desperately wanted to put in more characters,do you think that drive has deteminished?? after kirby's inclusion of more reps and fire emblem no doubt including lords from different games, mother is a shoe in for the same exquisite treatment.

and did anyone think to take sakurai's words as up until now, ness has been the only mother character in the franchise

Lucas replacing Ness in Melee had nothing to do with disc space. *IF* Sakurai wanted to, he could've of placed both Ness AND Lucas in Melee. That wasn't his intention. And to answer your question, yes, you're right, Mother might deserve more than one rep, but why would Sakurai pick Ness when we have Lucas, when he can pick another character from Mother 3?

 

[OysterMeister]

This looks a lot like a back-kick... upwards.

It's really starting to look to me like Ness might have a chance. It's understandable that a few moves might get altered and improved, but quite a few differences are showing up....
Of course, that doesn't really mean anything... If Lucas' up-b wasn't also PK Thunder, which is just about the least likely third "jump" that I've ever seen, and his front-b wasn't PK Fire with just about the same effect... I'd give Ness a realistic chance..

This is a direct quote from Sakurai, from right on the Lucas special moves update:

"But Lucas’s physical combat style is quite different. By which I mean, he does not have the same standard moves."

I'd say Sakurai makes it pretty clear that Ness and Lucas have different standard moves. And since standard moves make up the vast majority of any given moveset, this means that Lucas and Ness can NOT be considered clones. Even if all four of their special moves looked and functioned EXACTLY the same (and we know from the update that they don't) Lucas and Ness still wouldn't be clones.

I think it's time we all finally agreed on this. Lucas and Ness are not clones. Not even a little.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

That I've always agreed with. I do still think Lucas is Ness's successor. Yes, even if they do away with Ness's standard moves. Games of all kinds do things like this all the time, Smash would be very, very far from the first fighting game to do that. (Assuming I'm right)

 

[courte]

This is a direct quote from Sakurai, from right on the Lucas special moves update:

"But Lucas’s physical combat style is quite different. By which I mean, he does not have the same standard moves."

I'd say Sakurai makes it pretty clear that Ness and Lucas have different standard moves. And since standard moves make up the vast majority of any given moveset, this means that Lucas and Ness can NOT be considered clones. Even if all four of their special moves looked and functioned EXACTLY the same (and we know from the update that they don't) Lucas and Ness still wouldn't be clones.

I think it's time we all finally agreed on this. Lucas and Ness are not clones. Not even a little.

YES exactly because he liked the series so much and didnt want to release the char before the game he didnt include a ness clone

now that he's had a chance to truly work on making similar characters truly unique from each other there's no reason to kick out ness

 

[OysterMeister]

Yeah, if Ness doesn't return then Lucas' similarities would make him his successor. There's no arguing that.
Of course, plenty of fighting games also introduce new characters who share quite a few similarities with older ones. Smash would be far, far from the first fighting game to have two similar characters. Heck, smash bros has already had two similar characters with Mario and Luigi.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

I do wonder... what if, Sakurai decided to pull a "Roy" back in SSB and include Lucas instead of Nessbecause Lucas' game was due soon?

 

[DeuceBlade]

In my opinion.. There would be no logic to compare Ness to Lucas in brawl if Ness was not in.. Sakurai has compared Lucas and Ness in almost every Lucas update.

Most characters play slightly or majorly different from their Melee incarnation (Well obviously Pikachu sinces its just melee's pichu evolved ). So to compare Lucas to Melee's Ness would be uncanny.

But comparing Lucas to a Brawl Ness would be more logical.

and besides..

While he is timid in nature, he fights splendidly. Is it possible he can surpass even Ness?!

How will we ever know if Sakurai doesn't put Ness in brawl

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

Well, let's say you have a famous racer. And he dies. Then eventually, his son becomes a racer too. Is it impossible to know if he can surpass his father, just because he's dead? No. Even if Ness is not in the game, we'll see if he can surpass him not long after getting the game.

EDIT:

YES exactly because he liked the series so much and didnt want to release the char before the game he didnt include a ness clone

now that he's had a chance to truly work on making similar characters truly unique from each other there's no reason to kick out ness

I really have a hard time understanding what you write. Even then, I'll say Claus is more likely than Ness at the moment.

 

[DeuceBlade]

Well, let's say you have a famous racer. And he dies. Then eventually, his son becomes a racer too. Is it impossible to know if he can surpass his father, just because he's dead? No. Even if Ness is not in the game, we'll see if he can surpass him not long after getting the game.

.

Brawl is not Melee, or Smash64.. so Logically there would be no other way to see if Lucas could surpass Ness.

Whereas in Racing its all the same.. whether he can truly surpass his father depends on where his father set the record.. cause two different places will obviously have different outcomes..

Lets say Melee and Brawl were both racing games... Someone would obviously win the race faster in melee due to wave dashing, and higher speeds. While in brawl wavedashing has been removed, and moves a bit slower.

So truly Lucas can not surpass Ness in brawl without Ness being in brawl.

I hope this made as much sense to you as it did in my head lol.

 

[maxieman]

man I hope Ness is really out, hes an annoying ugly little ******* >.<

plus Lucas has great hair!

 

[DeuceBlade]

man I hope Ness is really out, hes an annoying ugly little ******* >.<

plus Lucas has great hair!

I believe the opposite

I think ness' taunt is funny, I don't know what he says exactly but its funny to use when I take out an opponent.

and his baseball cap is cooool

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

But we only see Melee and Brawl different because we are outsiders. Even then, suppose the son races in another category, with another style, in different leagues, etc. All different from the father. Even then, with the quality of his achievements in his category, we can tell if he can surpass his father, even if they were totally different racers. If we do it this way, the father doesn't even have to die.

Another one, someone is a wrestler, and he wrestles, and is considered good. His son is a boxer. Can we still know if he can surpass him? Yes. By the quality of his achievements as a boxer vs. the quality of his father's achievements as a wrestler. Like, the quality of Ness achievements as a Meleeer and a 64er vs. Lucas's as a Brawler.

Now, I hope that made as much sense to *YOU* as it did in *MY* head.

Anyway, if we go by what you're saying, I can already pretty much tell that Melee Ness will pale in comparision to Brawl Lucas. But Lucas will never be able to surpass 64 Ness.

EDIT:

By the way, Ness says "OK" during his taunt. Was it really that hard to figure out?

 

[DeuceBlade]

But we only see Melee and Brawl different because we are outsiders. Even then, suppose the son races in another category, with another style, in different leagues, etc. All different from the father. Even then, with the quality of his achievements in his category, we can tell if he can surpass his father, even if they were totally different racers. If we do it this way, the father doesn't even have to die.

Another one, someone is a wrestler, and he wrestles, and is considered good. His son is a boxer. Can we still know if he can surpass him? Yes. By the quality of his achievements as a boxer vs. the quality of his father's achievements as a wrestler. Like, the quality of Ness achievements as a Meleeer and a 64er vs. Lucas's as a Brawler.

Now, I hope that made as much sense to *YOU* as it did in *MY* head.

Anyway, if we go by what you're saying, I can already pretty much tell that Melee Ness will pale in comparision to Brawl Lucas. But Lucas will never be able to surpass 64 Ness.

EDIT:

By the way, Ness says "OK" during his taunt. Was it really that hard to figure out?

When you compare people in different categories then it becomes more of an opinion than actual fact.. This reminds me of a time when I saw a thread about who was stronger "Vegeta or Sasuke" now at first this may seem like it has nothing to do with the subject.. but it does.. how can one compare to entities from different franchises , whose to say the powers of dragonball z are truly minuscule to the powers of naruto, or vice versa.

Back to Ness and Lucas, Nothing in Brawl will feel exactly like Melee, so no merits Ness earned will be reachable by Lucas unless they were both in the same game.

and btw.. I am not trying to flame you so you don't have to be so abrasive.

Melee Ness can not be compared to Brawl Lucas, unless Ness was in brawl to challenge Lucas in anyway.

 

[Kirby knight]

When you compare people in different categories then it becomes more of an opinion than actual fact.. This reminds me of a time when I saw a thread about who was stronger "Vegeta or Sasuke" now at first this may seem like it has nothing to do with the subject.. but it does.. how can one compare to entities from different franchises , whose to say the powers of dragonball z are truly minuscule to the powers of naruto, or vice versa.

Back to Ness and Lucas, Nothing in Brawl will feel exactly like Melee, so no merits Ness earned will be reachable by Lucas unless they were both in the same game.

and btw.. I am not trying to flame you so you don't have to be so abrasive.

Melee Ness can not be compared to Brawl Lucas, unless Ness was in brawl to challenge Lucas in anyway.

Are you saying that Lucas has nothing in common in all with Ness? None of his moves look at all similar to Ness's in Melee? (Comparison)

-Knight

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

I don't know much about Naruto so I can't help you there. But even then, Lucas will have his merits, and Ness will have his, even if they're not in the same game. Who's to determine the quality of the merits? Like you said, that's more of an opinion than a fact, unless it's glaringly obvious. Yes, Brawl will not feel exactly like Melee, but even then, Melee didn't feel like SSB, and we all know Ness was better in 64, so Ness in 64 surpassed Melee Ness. If we can draw that comparision we'll know if Lucas can surpass Ness.

 

[DeuceBlade]

Are you saying that Lucas has nothing in common in all with Ness? None of his moves look at all similar to Ness's in Melee? (Comparison)

-Knight

No the subject we were discussing is whether Ness and Lucas can surpass each other, due to the quote made by Sakurai.

You can read the above post I think to see what we stated.

My main thought was that Lucas can not logically surpass Ness if Ness is not in brawl since the play style/ and physics have changed a bit.

 

[RDK]

This just in: Ness is not in Brawl. Sakurai said so himself. DeuceBlade is in denial.

That'll be all.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

I agree RDK. Sheesh, just get over it!

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

My main thought was that Lucas can not logically surpass Ness if Ness is not in brawl since the play style/ and physics have changed a bit.

You should give it more thought.

 

[DeuceBlade]

I agree RDK. Sheesh, just get over it!

"I decided long ago.. never to walk in anyone's shadow" uh.. where did that come from..

On Topic: Sakurai has not deconfirmed Ness yet, lets get with the supporting!

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

Support thread is over there ->

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

"I decided long ago.. never to walk in anyone's shadow" uh.. where did that come from..

On Topic: Sakurai has not deconfirmed Ness yet, lets get with the supporting!

Why support someone who most people either feel is deconfirmed or Claus would be much better? Not to mention the people who do support him(mainly DB) lacks any logic or good arguments to defend him.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

He just likes Ness better.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

Too bad. Sakurai isn't going to put Lucas out or Ness in b/c DB likes him better. He needs to get over it.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

That I know.

 

[DeuceBlade]

Support thread is over there ->

Your right about that!

Why support someone who most people either feel is deconfirmed or Claus would be much better? Not to mention the people who do support him(mainly DB) lacks any logic or good arguments to defend him.

I'm glad you brought this up, it shows the main problem with some of the altercations that occur in this forum, and around the world to be precise..

I do not have to agree or believe with what others believe in, the people who apparently know Ness is out are angered by people supporting Ness (why I don't know), Supporting Ness is what we want to do because we believe he still has a chance.. The majority of the people who flame us are just trolls, and rather immature.. Take RDK for instance.. He is constantly stating the same things over to try and get me as angry as him (I hope he knows its not working), and start a flame war...

If people just let us support Ness in peace most of these issues would not have to surface, a good debate is always nice, but once people begin to act immature and insult then the whole thing becomes pointless because now we aren't trying to prove something we're trying to hurt each other.. and hopefully thats now what this thread is about.

I am not against Claus or Lucas, in fact I hope Claus makes it, but I also hope Ness returns.. I believe he still has a chance.. these are my opinions and beliefs.. and no matter what people try to do.. I still will hope for Ness, insulting me won't change a thing.

for brawl!

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

I'm not insulting you, but you do seem to lack logic and show it. The majority of people who flame you are not immature or trolls, but have good points that you can't seem to counter or agree with and therefore you see it as a way to keep posting the same thing over and over "Ness for Brawl" b/c you can't comeback with a good point. We don't need to insult people like you, b/c you are already insulting yourselves.

 

[vesperview]

I hope Claus makes it, but I also hope Ness returns.

Lol, excuse me while I laugh my *** off at this, NO way that is happening.

 

[DeuceBlade]

I'm not insulting you, but you do seem to lack logic and show it. The majority of people who flame you are not immature or trolls, but have good points that you can't seem to counter or agree with and therefore you see it as a way to keep posting the same thing over and over "Ness for Brawl" b/c you can't comeback with a good point. We don't need to insult people like you, b/c you are already insulting yourselves.

These are your opinions, so I guess these nothing I can really say (nor want) to change your mind.

Oh well, I still support Ness and in my opinion my facts are good.. whether they are "logical" to you does not really effect whether they are bad or good, just bias to my ideas. Oh well, not like it really matters to me.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

These are your opinions, so I guess these nothing I can really say (nor want) to change your mind.

Oh well, I still support Ness and in my opinion my facts are good.. whether they are "logical" to you does not really effect whether they are bad or good, just bias to my ideas. Oh well, not like it really matters to me.

These aren't opinions. They are facts. People who flame you do in fact have good arguments against Ness that you CANT and DONT counter but only reply by saying "Ness for Brawl" or something similar b/c you can't comeback with something else. Maybe you might consider yourself to have logic, but your post show none if any at all.

 

[DeuceBlade]

These aren't opinions. They are facts. People who flame you do in fact have good arguments against Ness that you CANT and DONT counter but only reply by saying "Ness for Brawl" or something similar b/c you can't comeback with something else. Maybe you might consider yourself to have logic, but your post show none if any at all.

The so called facts people have are debateable (obviously)

"up until now deconfirms NEss11!1" - up until now has been used for other updates and does not directly deconfirm him, it depends on how you see it, imo it doesn't deconfirm him ( I don't jump to conclusions)

"Lucas moveset deconfirms Ness" - once again they are not the exact same moves, even Sakurai took his time out to show and explain the differences, I mean Sakurai why bring it up right? hes deconfirmed -.-, its debateable and to me the Lucas moveset makes Ness' chances higher.

"Sakurai wanted to replace Ness with lucas in melee" - That was 6 years ago, Brawl will have a larger roster, Lucas is already in which means if Sakurai decides to keep him he could since what he original intended is already in.

"Ness is out cause Sakurai is only focusing on Mother 3" - Yeah he is focusing on Mother 3, and if he wanted he could include some stuff from mother 2.. "Past stages: Onett", Ness could become unlockable.

"Lucas is superior to Ness" - Really? hopefully Ness will be in brawl and then we will really see whose superior.

"Lucas is cooler then Ness, his hair look at his frekin awesome hair!!!" - I prefer baseball caps

These are just a bunch of questions I usually get from the same people over and over.. I'm sure people will flame my answers, but these are the same exact people who constantly say "you never have pointz to our argumentz"

Enjoy

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

The so called facts people have are debateable (obviously)

"up until now deconfirms NEss11!1" - up until now has been used for other updates and does not directly deconfirm him, it depends on how you see it, imo it doesn't deconfirm him ( I don't jump to conclusions)

"Lucas moveset deconfirms Ness" - once again they are not the exact same moves, even Sakurai took his time out to show and explain the differences, I mean Sakurai why bring it up right? hes deconfirmed -.-, its debateable and to me the Lucas moveset makes Ness' chances higher.

"Sakurai wanted to replace Ness with lucas in melee" - That was 6 years ago, Brawl will have a larger roster, Lucas is already in which means if Sakurai decides to keep him he could since what he original intended is already in.

"Ness is out cause Sakurai is only focusing on Mother 3" - Yeah he is focusing on Mother 3, and if he wanted he could include some stuff from mother 2.. "Past stages: Onett", Ness could become unlockable.

"Lucas is superior to Ness" - Really? hopefully Ness will be in brawl and then we will really see whose superior.

"Lucas is cooler then Ness, his hair look at his frekin awesome hair!!!" - I prefer baseball caps

These are just a bunch of questions I usually get from the same people over and over.. I'm sure people will flame my answers, but these are the same exact people who constantly say "you never have pointz to our argumentz"

Enjoy

1. As I said, it doesn't deconfirm him to some people, but even so it certainly isn't something in Ness's favor
2. Lucas moveset doesn't at all make Ness's chances higher. I never said it deconfirmed him, but yet again this is another thing that doesn't work in Ness's favor
3. 6 years ago, and maybe Sakurai decided it was time to put it into action this time around since Mother 3 doesn't have a delay. Bigger roster doesn't guarantee a character's stay and we don't know exactly how much the bigger the roster is
4. Sure if he WANTED to, but it's obvious of which title is taking precedence and is being repped for this game.
5. This was never said by me, so no comment concerning this.
6. I'd prefer many different factors that actually has something to do with Brawl.

In conclusion, you respond to different people. You have yet to bring to me a good point that hasn't been countered. I don't have to flame you but I can easily counter your statements.

 

[DeuceBlade]

1. As I said, it doesn't deconfirm him to some people, but even so it certainly isn't something in Ness's favor
2. Lucas moveset doesn't at all make Ness's chances higher. I never said it deconfirmed him, but yet again this is another thing that doesn't work in Ness's favor
3. 6 years ago, and maybe Sakurai decided it was time to put it into action this time around since Mother 3 doesn't have a delay. Bigger roster doesn't guarantee a character's stay and we don't know exactly how much the bigger the roster is
4. Sure if he WANTED to, but it's obvious of which title is taking precedence and is being repped for this game.
5. This was never said by me, so no comment concerning this.
6. I'd prefer many different factors that actually has something to do with Brawl.

In conclusion, you respond to different people. You have yet to bring to me a good point that hasn't been countered. I don't have to flame you but I can easily counter your statements.

This is whats good about our debate its bringing up good points, like the fact that I am not saying Ness will be in brawl, I only support his inclusions.. and just like you say you can counter my statements I can counter yours aswell, so either way we will never get anywhere regardless, but even if everyone realized this debate would go now where the people who believe Ness is out should just move on, while the people who support Ness will continue to support him until he is deconfirmed (which we don't believe will happen).

So you guys can continue to bring up your points, and we will also counter them.. but while your stressing yourselfs out trying to "convert" people to believing Ness is out, we ( or some of us lol) will continue to stresslessly support Ness.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

I'm not stressing myself out. I'm actually laughing my *** off at the arguments or points you bring up as counters. We know you aren't saying Ness is in Brawl b/c there's really nothing to say or show to back that up. Beleiving he has chances is ok, but when you look at the facts and put them into deep thought and you're in an argument with someone, don't try to use them to your favor. It just doesn't work. I mean, sure I as well as some others have hope for another Sonic character, but we use our logic and facts and accept that it won't happen. You on the other hand you try your best to prove something that just can't be proven.

 

[Collective of Bears]

Hmmm.... Apparently he can't be swayed by common facts. Let's try a different approach. Let's try speaking his language. Ahem... Lucas replaces Ness I don't care what you say!!!

 

[RDK]

Hmmm.... Apparently he can't be swayed by common facts. Let's try a different approach. Let's try speaking his language. Ahem... Lucas replaces Ness I don't care what you say!!!

^LMAO. 10CHICKENS

 

[vesperview]

Sakurai changed his mind, the roster is gonna have 70 characters, Ness will return, Paula, Poo and Jeff will be playable, ALL OF THEM, because until the game comes out, they can all be playable, Magicant, Twoson, Dalaam and Snow Woof will be their stages, because all of them have a chance, Fourside will return along with Onett and Lucas and New Pork City will be left in the shadows, because we all know how Sakurai doesn't prefer Mother 3.oo

for Brawl!

I bet he thinks that could happen, until the game is released, everything is possible[/sarcasm] I mean, none of us have a clue.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

^LMAO. 10CHICKENS

Lawl.
LUCAS IS REPLACING NESS AND CLAUS IS JOINING THE BROLL, I DON'T GIVE A FLIP ABOUT WHAT YOU SAY!!!!!!! CLAUS 4 BROLLZORZ .

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

Hmmm.... Apparently he can't be swayed by common facts. Let's try a different approach. Let's try speaking his language. Ahem... Lucas replaces Ness I don't care what you say!!!

I give you a cookie for that one

 

[DeuceBlade]

I hope Ness is an unlockable to pay homage to SB64, along with the other original unlockables

for brawl!