Ness is out: Come and help those in denial...

[TheBuzzSaw]

[Buzz]
Dent? No. But seriously, there is really no reason to remove Ness.

That's BS, no way around it.
After being a 2 game veteran of the critically acclaimed best 4 player series of all time, he hasn't gained any marketability? No way in hell.

Again, out comes the "there is no reason" argument. How about, they liked Lucas better so they put him in instead? There is no reason to remove Young Link (he is in multiple Zelda games), but guess what? They probably will.

Jar Jar had a huge role in the first Star Wars movie, but we all saw how quickly his role diminished over the following two episodes. Ness is in no way guaranteed a spot. You are picking at logic that makes no sense.

 

[finalark]

Your attempt to logic-dash has failed.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

[Buzz]
Another BS statement. Ness is FAR more known worldwide. Also, remember Sakurai's statement on not wanting to put too much emphasis on Japan Only characters? I'd say replacing a veteran qualifies.

Young Link was a clone, so this argument is pretty redundant.

Wow, that was out of nowhere. To counter I'm gonna go with "Thank God LucasArts doesn't make SMash Bros".



[finalark]
"So until now, I’ve always made sure to include handicaps in each game in the series."

"There’s a character named Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series up until now, and Lucas is very similar. "

 

[finalark]

[Buzz]
Another BS statement. Ness is FAR more known worldwide. Also, remember Sakurai's statement on not wanting to put too much emphasis on Japan Only characters? I'd say replacing a veteran qualifies.

Young Link was a clone, so this argument is pretty redundant.

Wow, that was out of nowhere. To counter I'm gonna go with "Thank God LucasArts doesn't make SMash Bros".



[finalark]
"So until now, I’ve always made sure to include handicaps in each game in the series."

"There’s a character named Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series up until now, and Lucas is very similar. "

Your logic is broken. Seriously, it's more broken then Kirby's back throw.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Your logic is broken. Seriously, it's more broken then Kirby's back throw.

Saying my logic is broken won't nullify my argument. Prove me wrong. Those are both exact quotes.

If it's so broken, it should be pretty easy to counter, should it not?

 

[finalark]

Okay, let me counter it.

"Until now" signifies a change, there was a change in the Handicap and there was a Change in the series when it was announced the Ness was out.

I don't see how you can even use the handicap to prove that he's back.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

The handicap update deconfirmed the old handicap mode, and introduced a new one.

You could say "So until now, I've made sure to include a Mother character in each game of the series"

 

[E-Jolteon]

I dunno, textual evidence aside, Lucas looks more like Ness's equivalent to Mario's Luigi. Seriously, look at this moves. No bat, no yoyo.. And not because the bat was worthless. In N64, it kicks ***.

Second, he long range-type grab. Ness never had any such thing.

Third; his PK fire flies straight, Ness's curves. It also seems a bit stronger.

PK Freeze is a huge, HUGE difference from PK Pulse. It stuns opponents, instead of actually just doing damage.

PK thunder EXPLODES. It never did that on impact. Lucas's is probably stronger.

PSI Magnet looks harder to use, since Lucas only casts in front of it.

All in all, I think Lucas looks like he plays in a "Luigi is to Mario, as Lucas is to Ness" fashion, and as such, it is believable that Ness is still likely in Brawl. Don't quote me on this though, my intuition has definitely been wrong before.

Edit: You might call it a tad off topc, but not a thing in this post is bs.

 

[finalark]

I agree wtih Prettygoodyear.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

[Buzz]
Another BS statement. Ness is FAR more known worldwide. Also, remember Sakurai's statement on not wanting to put too much emphasis on Japan Only characters? I'd say replacing a veteran qualifies.

Young Link was a clone, so this argument is pretty redundant.

Wow, that was out of nowhere. To counter I'm gonna go with "Thank God LucasArts doesn't make SMash Bros".

Young Link was in more games than big Link was. On top of that, they chose a version that was in one game. And if clones are out without any chance of being revamped, I suppose that kills Falco, Ganondorf, and *gasp* Ness since LUCAS IS ALREADY IN THE GAME.

And you totally missed the point. The point is that just because the game was amazing and popular doesn't mean every character in it is amazing and popular. Personally, I had never even heard of Ness until smash, and I am not the only one who thinks he is annoying and should be given the boot. It had nothing to do with who is making the game. You really ought to work on your comprehension skills.

 

[DeuceBlade]

I think Ness will be an unlockable, as all the original unlockables will return to being unlockable.

Beat deh classic mode with lucas unlock deh nessz

 

[finalark]

Tatsuman, your logic has been countered.

Three times.

 

[Zenigame]

The handicap update deconfirmed the old handicap mode, and introduced a new one.

No, the handicap update reconfirmed the old handicap mode, and introduced an additional one.

The updates states there was no thrill in just making yourself weaker, so you can now up you initial damage as well.


Ness isn't necessarily coming back- in fact, his chances are pretty poor. But that quote alone is certainly not enough to be a 100% deconfirmation.

 

[finalark]

It didn't say anything about the old handicap.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

[finalark]
He said he's included a handicap mode "up until now". Which signifies that it has been removed. Not changed, removed.

But it is obviously still there, as the update centers around it.

So the most used statement to prove Ness won't return is now called into question. If that statement was obviously mis-worded, then could the Lucas Update also be? It is very possible.

Nothing will PROVE Ness is back aside from a Dojo update, gameplay footage, or actually playing the game after Feb 10th. But this certainly doesn't rule him out either.

[PrettyGoodYear]
Actually, aren't both still in? Very Hard mode wouldn't be very difficult without them.

No, because that would give the impression that there will be no MOTHER characters in Brawl. See above for argument.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

Also, Ness may be more recognizable worldwide, but his true fanbase lies in Japan. They loved Mother 2, it sold well there. EarthBound flopped in America. Ness was included in Smash because of them. If they want Lucas now, then fine. You've gotta be more selfless, you know.

EDIT:
Read the Handicap update. It deconfirmed the old handicap system and introduced a new one. He said it himself "so I changed the system".

 

[finalark]

Yeah, handicap is still there, but it's been changed.

So you could count Lucas as Ness, but changed.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Young Link was in more games than big Link was. On top of that, they chose a version that was in one game. And if clones are out without any chance of being revamped, I suppose that kills Falco, Ganondorf, and *gasp* Ness since LUCAS IS ALREADY IN THE GAME.

And you totally missed the point. The point is that just because the game was amazing and popular doesn't mean every character in it is amazing and popular. Personally, I had never even heard of Ness until smash, and I am not the only one who thinks he is annoying and should be given the boot. It had nothing to do with who is making the game. You really ought to work on your comprehension skills.

Yea, I know that Kid Link is, in essence, the True Link.

No, all clones are not out, except for the ones that are pretty much the same person. Ala Kid Link, and Pichu. The "True Clones" if you will.

Ganon was the most different of all the clones anyway, so that argument kinda falls flat as well.

I know the point you are making, but it just doesn't apply here.
Jar Jar? Amazing? I'm going to take a moment to laugh at this.

And you think Lucas will be LESS annoying? C'mon, that's just stupid.

That sounded a lot like it was directed at me, instead of this argument. No reason to take it to a personal level.

 

[E-Jolteon]

Yeah, handicap is still there, but it's been changed.

So you could count Lucas as Ness, but changed.

Or broken. Personally, I think he'll never make high-tier without the bat or yo-yo.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

The Yo-yo was severely gimped in Melee, and the bat was awful in SSB. He can make whatever tier with whatever he has.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Yea, I know that Kid Link is, in essence, the True Link.

No, all clones are not out, except for the ones that are pretty much the same person. Ala Kid Link, and Pichu. The "True Clones" if you will.

Ganon was the most different of all the clones anyway, so that argument kinda falls flat as well.

I know the point you are making, but it just doesn't apply here.
Jar Jar? Amazing? I'm going to take a moment to laugh at this.

And you think Lucas will be LESS annoying? C'mon, that's just stupid.

That sounded a lot like it was directed at me, instead of this argument. No reason to take it to a personal level.

Ganondorf is a clone, so my statement is no less valid in accordance with what you said previously.

Just because you don't like Star Wars doesn't mean the rest of the world doesn't. Frankly, Star Wars is more popular than Super Smash Bros. Sorry. The analogy fits fine.

And I was responding to your argument, so yes, it was directed at you. And I'm not the one losing track of the argument. "I'm going to take a moment to laugh at this." Yeah, that's really proving your point. >_>

You are actively searching for evidence of Ness' return because you are that desperate. You won't listen to reason. No Ness supporter ever does.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Yeah, handicap is still there, but it's been changed.

So you could count Lucas as Ness, but changed.

But he didn't say "changed".

He said until now, he's included a handicap option. That implies that there is no handicap now. But there obviously is.

Look, I don't mean to convince you that Ness has a 100% chance or even a good chance of making it in. I'm just saying don't count him out.

Sakurai will do what's best, one way or another. I have faith in the Brawl team.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Ness has as much of a chance of making it in as Captain Falcon does of being out. How's that?

 

[finalark]

That works.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Ganondorf is a clone, so my statement is no less valid in accordance with what you said previously.

Just because you don't like Star Wars doesn't mean the rest of the world doesn't. Frankly, Star Wars is more popular than Super Smash Bros. Sorry. The analogy fits fine.

And I was responding to your argument, so yes, it was directed at you. And I'm not the one losing track of the argument. "I'm going to take a moment to laugh at this." Yeah, that's really proving your point. >_>

You are actively searching for evidence of Ness' return because you are that desperate. You won't listen to reason. No Ness supporter ever does.

Just as Luigi is a clone of Mario, yes.

I actually do like Star Wars. But I've never heard of anyone who said "Jar Jar was so freaking hardcore."
NO ONE LIKES JAR JAR.
Also, most religions are less popular then Star Wars, so...

As a personal attack, not an argument. And it actually did. My point " What you said was so full of it that I have to laugh".

Desperate? No. Do I want Ness back. Hell yes.

No Sonic supporter did either.....Oh wait.....

 

[finalark]

... Come on Tatsuman, Ness was one of my mains and I'm not going crazy. Are there any other characters that you liked? You know, I think that you are going to like Lucas.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Ness has as much of a chance of making it in as Captain Falcon does of being out. How's that?

That's roughly -10%

So no, that's crap.

Seriously, if all that's going to happen is me getting flamed for stating my opinion, I'm just gonna go.

 

[DeuceBlade]

So until now, I’ve always made sure to include handicaps in each game in the series.

This quote tells us that Handicap has been in each of the smash bros games

But, I began to think that there isn’t much thrill in just making yourself weaker, so I changed the system.

This quote tells us there is a new version of handicap, this quote is not apart of the first quote, as there is a period, and gap.

ps: omg is that lucas in the handicap update? coincidence? maybe.. not.

 

[finalark]

yeah, um. This will be a fun topic when SSBB comes out in Japan.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

... Come on Tatsuman, Ness was one of my mains and I'm not going crazy. Are there any other characters that you liked? You know, I think that you are going to like Lucas.

Ness is one of my mains too, but that's not really my issue.

I just really don't think they'll replace Ness outright.

And I'm going to main Sonic and Ness if he returns, or Sonic and Lucas if he doesn't.

 

[finalark]

Well, he'll probably come back as a Trophy. Yes, they did replace him, that was their original plan anyway.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I actually do like Star Wars. But I've never heard of anyone who said "Jar Jar was so freaking hardcore."
NO ONE LIKES JAR JAR.
Also, most religions are less popular then Star Wars, so...

This right here proves your inability to read. Go back at look at my original posts.

 

[DeuceBlade]

i wonder what role Ness would play in the subspace... maybe Ness and Lucas could team up to fight K. rool if they got in.

 

[finalark]

DB, Ness is out. And why would the fight K. Rool?

 

[error_alt_delete]

oh yes lucas in the handicap update means something[/SARCASM]

it means nothing, they could have used samus for the same exact thing and it would have made sense.

and sakurai's meaning in the system is that he replaced the old "handicap" and added a new one.

 

[DeuceBlade]

DB, Ness is out. And why would the fight K. Rool?

You say Ness is out as if you know that for a fact...

Why would they fight k. rool? the same reason why Fox is going to fight Rayquaza

cuz K. rool is going to attack something lol

and sakurai's meaning in the system is that he replaced the old "handicap" and added a new one

We only knew that due to the second quote, not the first.

 

[Pieman0920]

For Duece Blade, since I didn't see his question awhile ago~

Ness and Lucas are redundant by their movesets and roles. It's quite simple. And while other characters like Luigi are also redundant (though methinks less so now than Ness and Lucas would be, if Luigi gets the vaccum) Luigi is current in opposition to Ness who is outdated. It's not like ICs or Pit either, since while old themselves, there's no one who technically replaces them. Lucas does replace Ness though, in almost every way.

And for the up until now comment, the handicap of old was completely taken out and replaced with a new one. =/

 

[finalark]

Pieman is right, listen to him.

 

[DeuceBlade]

For Duece Blade, since I didn't see his question awhile ago~

Ness and Lucas are redundant by their movesets and roles. It's quite simple. And while other characters like Luigi are also redundant (though methinks less so now than Ness and Lucas would be, if Luigi gets the vaccum) Luigi is current in opposition to Ness who is outdated. It's not like ICs or Pit either, since while old themselves, there's no one who technically replaces them. Lucas does replace Ness though, in almost every way.

And for the up until now comment, the handicap of old was completely taken out and replaced with a new one. =/

If im not mistaken wouldn't Luigi's Vacuum make him more redundant because while mario's fludd would slightly push them away, Luigi's vacuum would bring people to him...

And Ness and Lucas movesets are only a little similar due to their special moves, and thats not even all of their special moves

For all we know Lucas could have poor jumping capablities which is why Sakurai included tether recovery for him, while Ness has great jumping movements.

and Like I said before they only share 3 special moves, and only 1 of those special moves are exactly alike.

Thats enough diversity between the two of them for me, and many others.

 

[Copperpot]

Does anyone else find it ironic that he used Lucas for the Handicap update?

Seriously, I really liked Ness (in 64), but I can picture a lot of fans coming back after release saying, "I haven't unlocked him 'up until now', but I've got a good feeling that he's still hiding in my game disc somewhere . . ."

ps: omg is that lucas in the handicap update? coincidence? maybe.. not.

Crap . . . I was waaaaaaaaaay late . . .