NC Power Rankings discussion (Brawl)

[stingers]

okay since killersos raised no objection and nobody but bill wants corneria and mansion legal they should be banned right

 

[KillerSOS]

okay since killersos raised no objection and nobody but bill wants corneria and mansion legal they should be banned right

Its not even your choice to make. I could care less about corneria I have never played it. You won't affect his decision and he said on saturday when I was playing with him that they would not be at the tourney.

You kept arging after I tried unsuccesfully to ignore you.

 

[Flamingo]

okay since killersos raised no objection and nobody but bill wants corneria and mansion legal they should be banned right

What logic is this?

 

[KillerSOS]

What logic is this?

The logic that I am the most important person in the room =)

 

[stingers]

What logic is this?

Democracy!

KillerSOS, while I certainly realize that I am not the TO and my decision is not law, I'm going to try to convince people that Corneria and Mansion should be banned so we don't have to play on them at the tourney...And I don't know where you got the

"and he said on saturday when I was playing with him that they would not be at the tourney."

from because Karn himself said that Bill wanted them on earlier.

 

[Sushi-Man]

The logic that I am the most important person in the room =)

Actually, I am the most important person in whatever room you are talking about.

 

[lord karn]

Its not even your choice to make. I could care less about corneria I have never played it. You won't affect his decision and he said on saturday when I was playing with him that they would not be at the tourney.

You kept arging after I tried unsuccesfully to ignore you.

The problem is that bill is also one of the tos and he's adamant about both of those stages.

I 100% think both of them should be banned, but he doesn't agree.

I also think rainbow cruise, green greens, and japes should be considered as well.

 

[Dr Peepee]

So Karn, do you guys like flip a coin or do rock-paper-scissors?

 

[KillerSOS]

The problem is that bill is also one of the tos and he's adamant about both of those stages.

I 100% think both of them should be banned, but he doesn't agree.

I also think rainbow cruise, green greens, and japes should be considered as well.

Ah I see what you mean. Green greens has to stay banned (Or I will just ban it). It has random falling bombs. Rainbow cruise turns into a MK ditto more than half the time and Japes is just stright up annoying... stupid death crocs. I will happily keep LM banned if it means those stages are banned as well.

 

[stingers]

Considered to be banned?

I think Green Greens should, but I don't really see what's wrong with Cruise.

Japes is debatable, I prefer it on but I really never go there any more anyway so feel free to take it off .

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

So Karn, do you guys like flip a coin or do rock-paper-scissors?

RPS


mindgaimz all dai

 

[lord karn]

So Karn, do you guys like flip a coin or do rock-paper-scissors?

There is usually no consensus. @_@ I think we had corneria legal last time, but I don't remember.

 

[KillerSOS]

There is usually no consensus. @_@ I think we had corneria legal last time, but I don't remember.

Should just have a epic random set to decide =D

 

[stingers]

karn will win the random set...he's too good with random

 

[Flamingo]

Karn, choose Rock Paper Scissors!

RPS


mindgaimz all dai

2 votes!

 

[stingers]

...who is flamingo

 

[Flamingo]

...who is flamingo

I'm the one on the left.

 

[ph00tbag]

I can see the Corneria ban, and the Mansion ban. After watching Bill vs. Stingers on Corneria at ASU, I'm quite convinced that if nothing else, it should be banned in the interest of time. Luigi's Mansion, being another camping heavy stage makes sense. However, I think the bans should be considered by the case. At ASU, it wasn't so bad, because there were enough setups to counteract the length of that one match, and overall, camping was kept to a minimum. At a Billfest, though, time has been a constant issue, so I can see Corneria being banned. Luigi's Mansion, too. Otherwise I think they're both iffy stages, but acceptable in the right circumstances.

Green Greens, Rainbow Cruise, Japes and such are all rather silly, and the Green Greens is the only vaguely defensible one, more for (again) camping than anything.

Also, be careful. Bill is too good at RPS.

 

[KillerSOS]

 

[NC-Echo]

Here is my opinion about the stages in question:

Corneria:
Cons:
-The fin is dumb and promotes camping
-Extremely short walls makes gimping too easy
-Dedede can infinite and other characters have combos against the wall that will hit a few times while you try to smash DI out.

Pros:
-There is no other stage like it and it adds depth to have it in the CP selection.
-It has low ceilings but no so drastically low that there is anything wrong with them.
-The fin adds some interesting dynamics since it can be hanged on and thus used for invincibility frames.

Luigi's Mansion:
Cons:
-Hyrule effect
-Its too big and too easy to just run away

Pros:
-The pillars stop projectiles which negates excessive projectile camping
-The stage has a high ceiling and the physical building promotes horizontal KO's, which no other stage has as a characteristic
-The walls can be destroyed very quickly with every character so if you dont like them, get rid of them (test just how quickly you can destroy them with your character before you come back and tell me it takes 2 mins or something dumb like that).

Rainbow Cruise:
Cons:
-***** characters with not so good recoveries, especially those with not so traditional tether (e.g. Olimar, ZSS, Ivysaur)
-Disappearing platforms promote extreme camping and give more reward for it since if you not only get damage from camping but put your opponent in an extremely disadvantage position even if they aren't getting hit
-The donuts are dumb and allow for odd gimp kills
-As the stage transforms back into the original setup characters can easily be camped to stay up top and are thus killed regardless of % by the stage.

Pros:
-Moving stage requires players to adjust to several different setups
-Adds variability
-Can counter certain types of camping (e.g. the traditional way of camping with snake) since the stage moves

Jungle Japes:
Cons:
-The river god
-The flowing water ruins recoveries forcing several characters to recovery high making it easier to edge guard them
-Separation of base level platforms promotes extreme camping

Pros:
-Variability
-Adds an interesting dynamic (all be it, in my opinion a dumb one) to edge guarding.

Green Greens:
Cons:
-Separation of base level platforms and constantly re-appearing walls promotes extreme camping
-Wind is dumb and can affect characters in extremely unbalanced ways (e.g. it can de-sync Olimars pikmin and whistling does not re-align them immediately and sometimes will not re-align them at all.
-The apples are dumb and can change the flow of the match as well as the outcome.
-The bombs are dumber and can change the flow of the match as well as the outcome.

Pros:
-Variability
-Re-appearing and breakable blocks adds for some interesting combos and some techs that are not present on other stages.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Here is my overall opinion. If stages like rainbow cruise and Jungle Japes are to remain legal then all the stages should be legal. On many of the stages the odd things about them add a lot of tech and combos not found anywhere else in the game under the current stage set. The only big reason I see for banning any of the stages is that Dedede can infinite on Corneria; however to counter that I believe the 'Dedede rule' implemented several Bill-fests ago would be quite sufficient.

I believe all the stages listed should be legal (if you think I am biased you can shove it because there are a lot of problems for Olimar if they are all left legal and I have been as unbiased as possible). Having any of the stages banned (save maybe corneria without the rule), I think is unfair because in my opinion they have roughly equal cons. Having all the stages banned is way too beneficial to several characters who without these stages have very few if any disadvantages stages. Too elaborate on that last point: Most people with arguments against several of these stages is based around their dislike for projectile characters and techniques abounding from said projectiles. Camping is a legitimate strategy and it takes skill. To remove every stage that promotes some form of camping only favors characters with no projectiles (e.g. Marth, MK, DK, etc.) and strongly disadvantages characters with good projectiles, only further skewing the imbalance as currently most of the top characters do not rely on projectiles.

The stages add balance and the stages allow for different strategies. I think many people complain because they do not take the time to establish techniques while on those stages.

For those who do not know what the Dedede rule is...
Dedede rule: If ever a stage is selected with a constant walk-off or infinite for the character Dedede than that stage cannot be played in a set while Dedede is a selected character unless both players agree on it. You may not counter pick the stage with the intention of playing Dedede and if you pick Dedede in response to a counter picked stage than the player that picked the stage may re-pick if he/she so choses to.

 

[Zero_Gamer]

Bill gets my stamp of approval

Except Luigi's Mansion...

 

[BEHR]

Can we kick out KillerSOS and Flamingo out of NC?

 

[KillerSOS]

Can we kick out KillerSOS and Flamingo out of NC?

Nope!

Only if you can get us kicked of of NC State lol

 

[OmniOstrich]

On the topic of stage bans, Bill and I can't agree on a ruleset for the next bill. I think we should go with standard MD/VA rules. Bill thinks mansion and corneria should be unbanned.

Being that MD/VA is the most competitive area in the East Coast and that we should be aspiring to represent NC on the East Coast as a competitive state we should really stick with the rules in our region to give our rising players the best chance possible when it comes time to play against the surrounding pros

The problem is that bill is also one of the tos and he's adamant about both of those stages.

I 100% think both of them should be banned, but he doesn't agree.

I also think rainbow cruise, green greens, and japes should be considered as well.

I still dont really know what all was legal in melee and what wasn't but I really think that due to the change overall character size since melee these stages have become a lot more gimpy than before. I can easily understand banning green greens and japes, rainbow cruise I am a lot more skeptical about.

Here is my overall opinion. If stages like rainbow cruise and Jungle Japes are to remain legal then all the stages should be legal.

I believe all the stages listed should be legal (if you think I am biased you can shove it because there are a lot of problems for Olimar if they are all left legal and I have been as unbiased as possible). Having any of the stages banned (save maybe corneria without the rule), I think is unfair because in my opinion they have roughly equal cons.

This is where you lost me, I dont see anything comparable from RC to any of the other stages in question. Green Greens and Jungle Japes have highly destructive environmental damage, on top of extremely radical blast zones not comparable to any other legal stage (not including the stages in question.)

In addition, Corneria has a constant wall where infinites and/or long lasting combos can be performed. Allow me to list a # of characters with a wall infinite and/or long lasting combo. Dedede, Marth, Meta Knight, DK, Falco, Falcon, G&W, Pikachu, Ice Climbers and Zelda. That is a lot of characters to say 'outside of camping DDD is the only problem.' You may say that 'its not a true infinite its only a +40% combo with good SDI' but when you consider that the blast zones lower the KO % drastically (especially for those with high KO potential like Marth, DDD, MK, DK, G&W, and Zelda....half the list) those combos are all they need to basically take a stock.

Having all the stages banned is way too beneficial to several characters who without these stages have very few if any disadvantages stages. Too elaborate on that last point: Most people with arguments against several of these stages is based around their dislike for projectile characters and techniques abounding from said projectiles. Camping is a legitimate strategy and it takes skill. To remove every stage that promotes some form of camping only favors characters with no projectiles (e.g. Marth, MK, DK, etc.) and strongly disadvantages characters with good projectiles, only further skewing the imbalance as currently most of the top characters do not rely on projectiles.

I would like to know which characters have very few disadvantageous stages that are affected by the specific stages in question. Most characters that don't have many hard stage CPs aren't going to really be affected by these ones, because they just have versatile recoveries/movesets. Conversely characters with less versatile recoveries/movesets are still going to have disadvantageous stages.

On the topic of camping, there are plenty of campy stages outside of the ones mentioned, and they are much less broken than the ones being discussed. FD is never going to be banned, and is one of the worst stages to get camped on. Halberd is another stage that is basically always easy to camp on, especially when you land on the ship with the laser and claw. Castle Siege, Delfino, and Pokemon Stadium 1 all also have phases where it is very easy to camp as well so you can go ahead and CP to any of these 4 and camp without the other broken stage cons.

 

[NC-Echo]

Being that MD/VA is the most competitive area in the East Coast and that we should be aspiring to represent NC on the East Coast as a competitive state we should really stick with the rules in our region to give our rising players the best chance possible when it comes time to play against the surrounding pros

This is the most valid point I have thus far in thus discussion. It is something I have not considered and should definitely be taken into to consideration. However I still do not think that just cause MD/VA does it we should just follow suit; part of becoming "a competitive state" is coming up with works best for us to develop our players.

This is where you lost me, I dont see anything comparable from RC to any of the other stages in question.

Rainbow Cruise is a dumb stage and ruins characters with bad recoveries. Every one of the top characters in the game has a good recovery or at least one that can keep up with this stage, save maybe falco who has a good first jump. However several of the not top characters have sub par recoveries which this stage gimps. Allowing this stage while taking off all of the others mentioned only further imbalances the game.

In addition, Corneria has a constant wall where infinites and/or long lasting combos can be performed. Allow me to list a # of characters with a wall infinite and/or long lasting combo. Dedede, Marth, Meta Knight, DK, Falco, Falcon, G&W, Pikachu, Ice Climbers and Zelda. That is a lot of characters to say 'outside of camping DDD is the only problem.' You may say that 'its not a true infinite its only a +40% combo with good SDI' but when you consider that the blast zones lower the KO % drastically (especially for those with high KO potential like Marth, DDD, MK, DK, G&W, and Zelda....half the list) those combos are all they need to basically take a stock.

Learn to SDI you nub. Just kidding... kinda. Seriously though this isn't a big deal since it isn't an infinite and with awareness of the stage and good placement you can avoid it entirely.

I would like to know which characters have very few disadvantageous stages that are affected by the specific stages in question.

Marth, MK, Snake, Falco, and Dedede to name a few have far worse match-ups on these stages than they do on any other allowed CP.

Most characters that don't have many hard stage CPs aren't going to really be affected by these ones, because they just have versatile recoveries/movesets. Conversely characters with less versatile recoveries/movesets are still going to have disadvantageous stages.

This is true to a certain extent but some of those characters do have some bad stages and removing the CP stages spoken of only makes it worse. I would rather not have a state full of MK's and Marth's (or the other top tiers).

On the topic of camping, there are plenty of campy stages outside of the ones mentioned, and they are much less broken than the ones being discussed. FD is never going to be banned, and is one of the worst stages to get camped on. Halberd is another stage that is basically always easy to camp on, especially when you land on the ship with the laser and claw. Castle Siege, Delfino, and Pokemon Stadium 1 all also have phases where it is very easy to camp as well so you can go ahead and CP to any of these 4 and camp without the other broken stage cons.

You can ban FD and as far as the others go camping is not really an issue there. Halberd I really dont know what your talking about and it does transform from that in a matter of minutes. Castle Siege, Delfino, and Pokemon Stadium 1 also do not stay at the parts that are conducive for camping, long enough to provide good counter picks.

Killer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujLvRh_4JHQ&feature=channel_page

This is a bad example since the match was relatively close, Plank usually places better than Toasty anyway (so we can assume overall he is a better player... I love you by the way Toasty), and MK is a hard counter to ROB.

 

[KillerSOS]

I agree with some of Bills points but...

Actually I donno really.

I need to think it through =)

 

[OmniOstrich]

More Walls of Text.

All in all I think most players would rather have you be more conservative in your stage bannings, to support this idea consider that 3 of the likely top4 players are calling for bans on at least some, if not all of these stages (Karn, PP, Stingers.)

I guess ultimately it comes down to your choice, I think to compromise you and karn should either decide to alternate rulesets for the next two tournies or you should each ban and protect the stages to get a mix of the two (so take Japes, Rainbow Cruise, Corneria, Mansion, and Green Greens and alternate you save one karn bans one, maybe add Norfair or Pictochat into the mix to make the #s even.)

All I can say is that getting counterpicked and losing to obnoxious stage hazards is much more frustrating than losing to a character counterpick.

 

[KillerSOS]

I agree with Ben. I hate getting hit on the head with a random bomb box(Green Greens) or having a random box gimp my recovory.

As Stingers said. You should not have to fight the stage more than the player you are playing(RC).

 

[toasty]

lol **** that match...he was on a mission that tourney to show how bad it is, when I wasn't ready to face him in losers [you can see how badly I choked in the first match, which is irrelevant since he was leagues better than me then, whereas he's just...a league better than me now lmao] I was the one who counterpicked Mansion and said that I was willing to make a point of it, even though I love that level.

Seriously I've had amazingly positive results at my tourneys with having conservative stage lists I used to have tourneys where people got all kinds of angry over ******** stages that PROS can deal with but not everyone is suited for that and even pros will argue those levels are dumb. But now that I have a far more conservative list, people are pretty happy...hell, Yoshi's Island isn't even a NEUTRAL at my tournaments anymore and people are satisfied with that because they usually waste their ban on YI anyway just so they won't get it on Random.

Anyway...Mansion is dumb for tournaments. No matter how many positive experiences you may have where it doesn't feel like a bad level for tourney play, all that means is you didn't have someone abuse its design to its full potential. Trust me, what happened to me in that match was NOTHING compared to what's possible there.

Sorry, I don't know if I'm off topic here, I kinda skimmed the posts around my name


oh, lastly: don't follow MD/VA. This is not Melee we're talking about. They've got a few whack stages that I'm not cool with [PIRATE SHIP AT C3 ECRC WTF?!?!?!] but for real, the Brawl community is way different and far less "established" [read: respectable] than the Melee MECCA that was MD/VA...just do your own thing and stick with what works in your region.

 

[Dark Hart]

Bill is playing into his own interests.

True.

Its a fair stage.

Get over it. Rainbow cruise is just as gay in MKs favor.

Where's your argument? I've read through 6 pages of this, and I haven't seen anything remotely related to a reason other than, "I can't see what wrong with it... I like it... you're stupid for thinking it should be banned. john john john john..."

Can we kick out KillerSOS and Flamingo out of NC?

Yes

... What toasty said...

toasty has spoken

 

[KillerSOS]

True.

Where's your argument? I've read through 6 pages of this, and I haven't seen anything remotely related to a reason other than, "I can't see what wrong with it... I like it... you're stupid for thinking it should be banned. john john john john..."

Yes

toasty has spoken

Your calling me a troll?

Stay in the Melee PR thread you don't see me posting there.

Go away troll.

 

[toasty]

Its a fair stage.

Get over it. Rainbow cruise is just as gay in MKs favor.

wait a minute.....................I just went back to see what you were talking about.

Corneria?!

REALLY?!?!??!

I'm sure it's a good argument.........................FOR ME TO POOP ONNNNNNNNNN!!!!!

 

[KillerSOS]

wait a minute.....................I just went back to see what you were talking about.

Corneria?!

REALLY?!?!??!

I'm sure it's a good argument.........................FOR ME TO POOP ONNNNNNNNNN!!!!!

Wait what?

I hate Corneria.

 

[toasty]

oh the post you quoted mentioned Mansion AND Corneria....guess you were just talking about Mansion, then.

 

[KillerSOS]

oh the post you quoted mentioned Mansion AND Corneria....guess you were just talking about Mansion, then.

Yeah my bad. Corneria is terrible.

LM is completly up to the TO as its questionable.

 

[Dr Peepee]

THANK YOU TOASTY!!!!

Please listen to him and quit getting dumb stages. I'd almost prefer the old Killer and Flamingo insanities over trying to keep/make ******** stages legal discussions.

I'll go back to lurking now.

 

[KillerSOS]

THANK YOU TOASTY!!!!

Please listen to him and quit getting dumb stages. I'd almost prefer the old Killer and Flamingo insanities over trying to keep/make ******** stages legal discussions.

I'll go back to lurking now.

Since when was I insane??

 

[Zero_Gamer]

Killer and Flamingo, you have yet to learn the ways of spam; during a discussion, it is better to contribute than spam. This isn't a flame war either, it's just a discussion.

Bill, Olimar actually does pretty well on Rainbow Cruise. The borders are perfect for him and the multiple platforms benefit his gimpable recovery more than they hurt.

I like what Toasty says, I honestly think that Yoshi's Island is stupid and should be kicked off the list of neutral stages and converted to legal CP.

 

[Flamingo]

Can we kick out KillerSOS and Flamingo out of NC?

You make me sad inside.
|
\/ My main has female genitals.

Killer and Flamingo, you have yet to learn the ways of spam; during a discussion, it is better to contribute than spam. This isn't a flame war either, it's just a discussion.

Bill, Olimar actually does pretty well on Rainbow Cruise. The borders are perfect for him and the multiple platforms benefit his gimpable recovery more than they hurt.

I like what Toasty says, I honestly think that Yoshi's Island is stupid and should be kicked off the list of neutral stages and converted to legal CP.

I never was on-topic to begin with. But I could give my input on the stageys in a bit I guess.

 

[toasty]

hey now what kind of bull**** southern hospitality is this?!?!

does VA have to school NC on how to be proper and dignified!? wowwww...

Now I don't know the whole story at all or how y'all really feel about eachother but even if we don't like someone in our region or what they have to say, we never go so far as to be *******s and, even if in jest, suggest that we "kick them out"