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NC Catfish Social Thread! *<3 KEV*

SleepyK

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Rofl it's a great argument that keith has made

"Brawl tends to be campier than melee"
"we agree"
"It's possible to camp in melee too, but that is very much not the predominant style. most people tend not to camp, even at high levels."
"that makes sense, we agree."
"SEE U CANT TALK ABOUT CAMPING IN BARLW"

'-'
 

TheLastCacely

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ok.... im just going to say it really simple.


pp made a comment about 313's post...

313's post was stating that melee can be a campfest at times as well as brawl. and showed vids

pp said that basically it did not matter cause 2 melee vids does not beat 100 brawl vids.

All im saying is that i agree with 313.

it's like blaming someone for stealing from the bank, when just last week you stole a pack of gum from the grocery store. Yes ur offense is small compared to the bank theif. BUT U STILL STOLE NON THE LESS!

i cant believe this is so hard for u guys to understand
sleepy ur asian, ur supposed to be on the ball

and kevin..
 

Dr Peepee

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im talking about the reference that 313 made. and then u said something about how it makes no difference cause brawl has 100's of those type of vids.

oh, and wtf... so he did not know how to abuse his options because hes not use to that playstyle? that just sounds like a lack in player skill. you should be ready for anything, and have an answer for anything.
No, that's not what I said. I said both of his examples are bad examples of effective camping in Melee and explained why. Brawl doesn't get that luxury because they have soooo many examples of effective camping that it's kind of hard/impossible to argue/explain away.

Keith that last argument is shenanigans. How is someone gonna know a Peach would take them to freakin KJ64 and run away if it's never been widely heard of before?
 

SleepyK

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yes, and our point is that it's particularly powerful and dominant in brawl.

is there a problem?
 

TheLastCacely

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No, that's not what I said. I said both of his examples are bad examples of effective camping in Melee and explained why. Brawl doesn't get that luxury because they have soooo many examples of effective camping that it's kind of hard/impossible to argue/explain away.

Keith that last argument is shenanigans. How is someone gonna know a Peach would take them to freakin KJ64 and run away if it's never been widely heard of before?
then it's a lack in metagame. idgaf. Read my last post.
 

Dr Peepee

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Your last post just proves you didn't read mine at all. wooo

Not a lacking metagame, but it's just dumber to do that stuff and be rewarded as easily on average in Melee.
 

Dr Peepee

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LOL well obviously you're getting rid of stages that give totally busted camping strategies(vs somewhat beatable camping strategies in Brawl).
 

Black Mantis

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Writing my own road...................
yes, and our point is that it's particularly powerful and dominant in brawl.

is there a problem?
Characters like Fox and Falco are only the exception, and in matchups that actually matter, offense isn't even their best option.

By looking at what is usually the best option for the vast majority, no rather every character of Melee, it's probably a more fundamentally defensive game than Brawl due to the nature of light shielding, crouch canceling, dashdancing, wavedashing, and extremely strong universal ledge options. Sure breaking defenses is more rewarding, but the actual defenses themselves, as in options to repel offenses are in many ways stronger in Melee than they are in Brawl. The main reason to approach at all in Melee is the implied reward of breaking defenses (especially with grab combos, or edgeguards). Given that the reward of breaking defenses in Melee is usually very large, Melee is saved from being terrible and ends up being one of the better competitive games in existence, but that doesn't stop players like HungryBox from causing other players to potentially rage over this game.

Also Sliq, Brawl- has proven without doubt that more shieldstun to Brawl is not the solution at all. That actually makes the game MORE defensive, by weakening a fundamental approach option. Honestly Melee was extremely close to being a horrible game due to its shieldstun and shield drop time, except competitive players realized you could jump out of shield (the casual players who don't know that you can jump out of shield, now you know why rolling is a common bad habit). If there was ONE thing I would change to MELEE in specific, I would make shield drop time 10 frames as opposed to how it's currently around 14-15. It's unacceptable in my book that you can't simply tilt out of shield against punishable Smashes. That just makes the game unnecessarily hard to learn for newer players.

Most characters actually approach pretty easily in Brawl when we discount the fact that zoning options are extremely unbalanced between tiers (which I stress is the real problem with Brawl). Between approach being fundamentally easy to do in Brawl and lower reward than compared to Melee, it's a fair system if you ask me. Generally speaking camping with projectiles (unless you're Falco) is overrated in Brawl and easy for every character to bypass. And thankfully in Brawl there is no character nearly as outrageous as Melee Jiggs or Sheik (their Brawl counterparts are currently underrated characters, but that's a different story), although your associated top tiers are still overall pretty lame in this game.
triple quote just to prove a point
 

Dr Peepee

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Yeah so that guy is definitely from the east coast.

You can play Melee and be rewarded for different reasons based on your unique playstyles. It's why regional/continental differences occur and yet players still remain effective in tournament. Offense is rewarded in Melee because of the SPEED with which you can PRESSURE the opponent. Can't pressure much while camping, but maybe players suck more at dealing with pressure so they roll more and you can bait rolls, well according to Keith they need to be prepared to have someone want to aggro them, but that wouldn't work if we all "played the game correctly."

CC'ing can be used offensively, as can every single other game mechanic that guy listed.

I couldn't keep reading after that part though.








Edit: @Dr Neo: LOL I saw that and enjoyed it very much. XD
 

SleepyK

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i jumped into the argument late and i didn't read many of the previous points, but i fail to see how that proves the points i perceived which were
1) brawl isn't just defensive
2) melee is just as defensive as brawl

if anything it makes the "offense and defense are more balanced in melee" argument stronger
and that approaching in brawl is less rewarding overall

so brawl is more defensive and rewards defense

melee is rewarding to both and very few players strongly exploit strongly defensive strategies


he explicitly states all of those things

plus, as Kevin pointed out, he's not 100% versed in either side so he doesn't bring up some things.
 

Black Mantis

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Brawl actually does have ways of being very rewarding on hit. Most characters in this game do in fact have options to punish jump and airdodge, and edgeguarding someone to death who gets hit out of their second jump is in some situations easier to do in this game than it is to do in Melee sometimes.

Having control of the stage, and putting someone on the edge is also extremely strong in Brawl. In fact, edgetrapping in Brawl generally is better than edgetrapping in Melee, when you discount unbeatable ledgecamping (which Melee DOES actually have btw).

If we go on the assumption that reward on hit is what matters in Brawl, Ganon would be top tier, since he has a lot of TRUE combos, and a ton of moves that **** on hit. And for that matter, he juggles and edgeguards quite well.

But the real problem of Brawl really isn't reward on hit. It's imbalanced zoning options, and abuses.
maybe i should've put this first
 

SleepyK

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ya, he mentions that brawl rewards on hit are "sometimes good"

how often is sometimes?

how often to land hit?

unbeatable ledgecamping? i'd like to see it.


313 approachin this argument like brawl
 

TheLastCacely

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313 you're just using quotes to win an argument of someone elses words.
That guy was mad vague with pretty much everything.....
and the quotes arent even working....

"unbeatable ledgecamping"

really?
ya, he mentions that brawl rewards on hit are "sometimes good"

how often is sometimes?

how often to land hit?

unbeatable ledgecamping? i'd like to see it.


313 approachin this argument like brawl
way to gang up on someone when u start to lose an argument.
 

TheLastCacely

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you can still be on one side and listen to what the other side is trying to say.

instead of blocking it out and saying it has no idea what it is talking about.


and smith, please tell me ur last post was a troll.

did you drop out of highschool? tell me the truth, i wont judge you.
 

Dr Peepee

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Tero is considered one of the best players in Germany and he camps in melee alot.

And do I have to mention amsah vs jman?


Planking in either game is powerful. Offense can be rewarding in Brawl.
Is he one of the best because he camps?

You can, and I can tell you that Jman's defense didn't actually reward him there since he was losing....his camping-oriented mindset hurt him lol. Amsah still got up when Jman finally quit camping.

Planking has yet to be proven to be good in Melee.

Offense is rewarded far less in Brawl.
 

DtJ SmithZzz

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you can still be on one side and listen to what the other side is trying to say.

instead of blocking it out and saying it has no idea what it is talking about.


and smith, please tell me ur last post was a troll.

did you drop out of highschool? tell me the truth, i wont judge you.
You can use quotes in a debate to help support you, but you can't use quotes to fight your battle.
 

BBQ°

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Melee seems pretty defense imo

Mew2king- does he ever approach?
Armada- peach is a giant wall, good luck approaching that
hbox- he walls too
dr pp- walls with lasers, but kevin approaches more than he has to

fox- i think fox can be played both offensive or defensive, but I think a cyrain style fox (very defensive) with mango pressure would be unbeatable.

axe- idk, I don't watch enough of his vids, but I think he's a mix of both offensive and defensive

falcon- i've heard from falcon mains that you're never supposed to approach, but they do anyways because it's fun

mango is a huge exception though because he's always in your face and pressuring, even with characters like marth

melee is a really deep game. it's almost impossible to say that it's a defensive or offensive game when you've got mango breaking the law lol
 

mr.fizwidget

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svz6rkvxcWk#

this is brawl at its highest lvl

sick combos and aggressive play

just like that video from england that keith showed

both players showing immense skill with wavelands, wavedashes, shield pressure, aerial chains/combos(yes combos do exist in brawl for all you bawrl haters, see vid above)

brawl is also very new, one must realize this

once everyone catches up to shaky and judge then we will see a game almost as fast as NASCAR itself

hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
 

DtJ SmithZzz

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also planking doesn't work in Melee because it can be edge guarded (against sheik) and you can just grab the ledge with others.
 
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