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NC Brocator Thread!

Dark Hart

Rejected by Azua
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Messages
11,251
Location
Death Row, North Carolina
playing one character is too boring for me

this game has 26

why do I need to choose?

**** having a main

plus I legit have a hard time believing that my lack of any real improvement has anything to do with my lack of a steady, single main character

I'm just bad at everything
 

Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
^^^^^it's because you keep switching the **** around, how the hell is anyone supposed to keep up with that. **** u


that's probably the same reason why you haven't improved as quickly as you've wanted to..... i'm not necessarily that "talented" i just improved way faster than everyone in NC because i STUCK TO ONE ****ING CHARACTER.... i guess twitch did too, but he just sucks


anyway, THIS IS GREAT NEWS!!!! now i don't have to be scared when i play chris ;DD

(even if i 3 stock ur ganon, i'm petrified of KAGE, so now i get to 3/4 stock you like i do sneak)


i'm talkin trash *****, MM me.

(srsly though sneak that 4 stock on yoshi's was ****ing balling)


MM?
Fixed it, =P Haha this guy.
 

bossa nova ♪

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 15, 2010
Messages
2,876
playing one character is too boring for me

this game has 26

why do I need to choose?

**** having a main

plus I legit have a hard time believing that my lack of any real improvement has anything to do with my lack of a steady, single main character

I'm just bad at everything
that's the spirit :c
 

AlcyoNite

Smash Champion
Joined
May 1, 2007
Messages
2,332
Location
**** Triangle, NC
i support chris' decision either way

i think he has learned the game well enough to make a wise choice about his character preference

also, i agree with kage, too, that every match with ganon is epic (see: mango's link vs kage)

:182:
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
Moderator
BRoomer
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Messages
27,766
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
I like it when KK seriously posts =)

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks Pikachu should be quite a bit higher on the tier list though lol.
 

Bl@ckChris

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 4, 2009
Messages
7,443
Location
Greensboro, NC
as i said, my ganon is still a factor. it'll probably be a little while yet before i play fox vs you, cam. theres still a few answers i want to see if i can find with ganon vs falco.

stay afraid.
 

tw1n

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 22, 2007
Messages
2,249
Location
Albuquerque
I like it when KK seriously posts =)

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks Pikachu should be quite a bit higher on the tier list though lol.
I can agree to this. His recovery is great, his killing power is solid, his off the stage game is great, and he is a faster character.
He just dies at low percent.

Also Kage. I'm starting to play Ganon a bit haha. He's alot of fun :)
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
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Puff dies early too and pika has a projectile =p

Lol nah but really Pikachu *****. The fact that he's fast means he has an approach imo lol.

Uair OOS is even a good defensive option.....lol I wonder where I actually think Pikachu is on the tier list now.....
 

Moophobia

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 18, 2008
Messages
2,097
Location
Castle Doomstadt
Puff dies early too and pika has a projectile =p

Lol nah but really Pikachu *****. The fact that he's fast means he has an approach imo lol.

Uair OOS is even a good defensive option.....lol I wonder where I actually think Pikachu is on the tier list now.....
He's above doc, doc ****in blows.



Jk doc *****. :awesome:
 

Juno McGrath

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 28, 2009
Messages
8,240
Location
Raleigh, NC.
played with gofg and josh and lucas a lot this week

Lucas is getting better, watch out for that guy

Gofg needs to play more but is **** as ever.

Joshua is improving so much as always, that guy rapeeeees. he also had an amazing teaching session with me.
 

Sneak8288

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 9, 2006
Messages
2,784
Location
readin spark notes
^^^^^it's because you keep switching the **** around, how the hell is anyone supposed to keep up with that. **** u


that's probably the same reason why you haven't improved as quickly as you've wanted to..... i'm not necessarily that "talented" i just improved way faster than everyone in NC because i STUCK TO ONE ****ING CHARACTER.... i guess twitch did too, but he just sucks


anyway, THIS IS GREAT NEWS!!!! now i don't have to be scared when i play chris ;DD

(even if i 3 stock ur ganon, i'm petrified of ganon, so now i get to 3/4 stock you like i do sneak)


i'm talkin trash *****, MM me.

(srsly though sneak that 4 stock on yoshi's was ****ing balling)


MM?
your right lol, no johns here, i definitely got ***** that match. I gotta get better fox vs falco. But yea i'll MM, things may be different soon tho. Certain events been causing me to play alot more just to keep my mind off of life
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
Yo josh, I just wanted to say thanks again for housing me. Can you text or PM me your address? I also want to apologize in advance if I have to come in very late. I'm gonna pay you.
 

Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
I can agree to this. His recovery is great, his killing power is solid, his off the stage game is great, and he is a faster character.
He just dies at low percent.

Also Kage. I'm starting to play Ganon a bit haha. He's alot of fun :)
Of course, =P.. Today I just came back from playing some Falco, Marth, Ganon and Falcon. It's pretty interesting. Falco is ****. But he's not as cool as Ganon with his punch. =)
 

tw1n

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 22, 2007
Messages
2,249
Location
Albuquerque
Lol Ganon kills everything in just a few hits! It is crazy. his jab is easily the best in the game lol. It kills falcos at 100% (conditionally ;) )
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
I like it when KK seriously posts =)

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks Pikachu should be quite a bit higher on the tier list though lol.
I think he could be better than Mario, Samus, and Doc. Maybe Ganon, but I'm unsure. I feel the top 8 are fairly stable right now, though. It would take some serious changes for me to want to drop Ice Climbers or Falcon below Pikachu.

This is kind of about Pikachu as a general character, kind of about Pikachu against Sheik.

Speed gives him the power to pretend to be a crappy Fox against certain range strategies. His recovery allows him to get away with taking hits from a few characters. The smash side-B with good DI on the sending hit really does change his recovery and prevent a lot of would-be loops from working on him. He also doesn't get automatically killed by very much. Sheik's chain grab doesn't auto-death him, which is kind of good (jumpable at 40). It's still like a 65% combo but I mean, it's not really uncommon for that kind of damage to be put out by other characters or himself. It also assumes he doesn't hit a platform and get it interrupted (which can happen on a few common stages... also, shyguys).

He also has a fairly good B-throw game on her recovery. It's one of the better escapable loops at low percents simply because Sheik poofing deep into the stage doesn't wreck it; Pikachu rolls back a lot when he throws and brings her to the edge (and more importantly, to a position where he can grab the edge super fast or respond to her DI and offstage options). Higher percents the increased knockback can make it easy to force poofs onstage to build percent for the U-smash KO (which is painfully early).

D-tilt has more range than her ground suite, which can be annoying.

His low percent combo game on her is similar to Fox's. He can U-throw U-smash from 0-40 or so (strong hit / semi-strong hit switches at some point) regardless of her DI. After, it always links to Nairs or Uairs, so you can play with her DI.

I think there's a lot of room for Sheik to grow in this matchup. It's not really one I'm familiar with and I've not explored Sheik the same way AXE has explored Pikachu. I'm also not as good as him as a player. However, that said, I am convinced it's not completely hopeless for Pikachu like I have thought in the past. I'm hesitant to say it's plausibly winnable between two equally skilled players because I still feel it's extremely uphill for Pikachu, but I think Pikachu certainly has enough tools to no longer necessitate a secondary for it.




Ganon's only real advantage against Sheik is the fact that his range class is similar on aerials and his chain grab goes to death. But the chain grab going to death assumes perfect conditions; platforms and nonsense really screw with it. Ganon has a better lag punish with chain grabs but again it's susceptible to platforms and other nonsense. Pikachu covers more options more effectively from the ledge during edgeguarding. Ganon's range I don't feel is a huge deal because Pikachu has speed where it's important and also has more range than her ground game. His Uair also eats all her aerials, which is good.

Thinking about it, I think Ganon is objectively easier than Sheik just because Sheik can hit Ganon easier and kill him from a chain grab (platforms interrupting are largely non-issue because Ganon can't really DI to escape Sheik's combos unless she's doing stupid combos). She doesn't really have to worry about anything being stuffed because of Ganon's low attack speed but she can stuff his moves because her range / speed ratio. She also camps him much better because of his large body and limited movement. A lot of that doesn't work on Pikachu very well.

I may be biased though... I would like to play AXE again.
 

tw1n

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 22, 2007
Messages
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Location
Albuquerque
That was a very good read.
One issue with Pikachu is his landing lag after his Up B. Marth and Sheik also share this annoying amount of landing lag. Although his can be reduced by having tit send him directly onto the stage/platform. But he still suffers from a half second of lag which is all the time in the world for most characters.
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
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Hmmmmmm

So you're suggesting Pikachu somewhere around top of mid tier? I'd be down for that.

I imagine Sheik painfully screws with Pikachu when cornered though due to Pika's lack of range. I could see a lot of downhill spirals from one bad situation should Sheik be able to call Pikachu's angels on his up-B(I don't know how many possibilities there are for viable pikachu recoveries but if there aren't too many then Sheik should be taking more % or a stock against Pikachu off of a given opportunity than vice versa).
Pikachu's Dtilt being CC'able seems handy and if a player like Axe tried to repeatedly Nair after said Dtilt then you would get a somewhat free punish for CC'ing. The outranging is nice but the Dtilt itself is kinda weak.


Ganon gets it pretty good in that he can hit a couple times and deal tons of damage off of an opportunity(I'd certainly say more than Pikachu). He gets CG'd and stuff a lot but if he starts CG'ing and doing his big moves/tech read(s) then things kinda even out quickly. I've seen Kage do it vs other Sheiks(even M2K's that one game but yeah one game lol XD) so it seems like Ganon can push that range/punishment factor at times like Pikachu can push his recovery?/speed factor.

They both kill relatively early so that seems to be a non-issue.
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
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Dude heck no Pikachu shouldn't be involved in low tier stuff.

Now we may all be biased on this because of Axe so I would be willing to say mid tier somewhere but I certainly can't call Pikachu a low tier character anymore.
 

tw1n

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 22, 2007
Messages
2,249
Location
Albuquerque
Axe revolutionized his gameplay. Up Air OOS alone greatly increased his skills vs most characters.
 

Moophobia

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 18, 2008
Messages
2,097
Location
Castle Doomstadt
As a doc player I'm actually more afraid of a good pikachu than a good fox/falco. Give or take a couple of people obv.
Like pp...****in ******
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
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Spiral Mountain
So you're suggesting Pikachu somewhere around top of mid tier? I'd be down for that.
I'm not sure yet. I'm not convinced this is wholly Pikachu. That said, I think his setups are easier than the Marios' on a bunch of important characters and I definitely feel his chain grab going from 0-death (and better quality combos in general) give him a lot of advantages over his current competition.

I imagine Sheik painfully screws with Pikachu when cornered though due to Pika's lack of range. I could see a lot of downhill spirals from one bad situation should Sheik be able to call Pikachu's angels on his up-B(I don't know how many possibilities there are for viable pikachu recoveries but if there aren't too many then Sheik should be taking more % or a stock against Pikachu off of a given opportunity than vice versa).
She has to be fairly careful when Pikachu's near the edge because his B-throw is ridiculously good. Cornering is good, but between his speed, great B-throw, and Uair, there are things that can go wrong in that position. Needles help, but stage limitations and other things can make them less useful. Also, invincible ledgedash (Pika's is good). Unless you mean cornering as in, "Sheik is in the middle". In which case yeah it's good. You just don't want to be somewhere that Pikachu can throw you off, I think, or somewhere where Pikachu can start some Uair > platform > stuff combo.

Her moves send fairly high up when DIed well (barring Fair, but hitting that on Pikachu is really hard). Needles can force him to get onstage for a punishment, but you don't really kill him with that for a while. He's definitely capable of making it back between his smash side-B and Up+B tricks (edgecancels are really annoying). A lot of stuff you'll use to punish his Up+B lag won't really form a good loop or anything, which is also kind of sucky at times. Though that one's got some positional and stage factors that affect it.

However, don't get me wrong. I certainly feel Sheik tacks damage on Pikachu better than vice versa. Mostly because of d-throw. If you're comparing Pikachu to Ganon then I'd say Ganon tacks damage on more when he gets his key punishes but Pikachu's more consistent at hitting her and getting small stuff going.

Pikachu's Dtilt being CC'able seems handy and if a player like Axe tried to repeatedly Nair after said Dtilt then you would get a somewhat free punish for CC'ing. The outranging is nice but the Dtilt itself is kinda weak.
CC dash grab is difficult because his tilt isn't very laggy. I'm also going to suggest that Pikachu shouldn't be attacking directly into Sheik's duck and that ASDI down is much weaker. This combination makes it harder for Sheik to make first moves.

Pikachu's Nairs are surprisingly safe when placed low, and non-FFed Nairs often cross up. So it's not really that easy to punish them unless you outprioritize them or move out of the way. The former requires commitment, which is sucky. The latter is made complicated by Pikachu being fast.

Ganon gets it pretty good in that he can hit a couple times and deal tons of damage off of an opportunity(I'd certainly say more than Pikachu). He gets CG'd and stuff a lot but if he starts CG'ing and doing his big moves/tech read(s) then things kinda even out quickly. I've seen Kage do it vs other Sheiks(even M2K's that one game but yeah one game lol XD) so it seems like Ganon can push that range/punishment factor at times like Pikachu can push his recovery?/speed factor.
I feel you can prevent Ganon from getting the ball rolling fairly easily. Even good Ganons seem to fold to camping strategies as long as you're not willing to jump into the ****. His moves can be stuffed really easily too. The fact that Ganon has to rely on reads because of his poor speed is also an issue because it's really hard for him to chase Sheik's tech rolls / retreats / other defensive movement stuff without guessing (even with guessing far in advance he still can't get them sometimes). I'll agree that if Ganon gets his spacing going, it can be hard to deal with it but I do feel Pikachu outperforms him in many aspects of the matchup.

Ganon's extreme fragility doesn't offset his potential power, to me. He's just too easy to hit and shut out.

They both kill relatively early so that seems to be a non-issue.
Indeed.
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
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I'm not sure yet. I'm not convinced this is wholly Pikachu. That said, I think his setups are easier than the Marios' on a bunch of important characters and I definitely feel his chain grab going from 0-death (and better quality combos in general) give him a lot of advantages over his current competition.

Where do you think the line is drawn then? Even Luigi and Mario have seen some higher level play so I'm not sure where we could potentially put him much past that. Granted, Ka-master and Scorp were only one person as well, lol.


She has to be fairly careful when Pikachu's near the edge because his B-throw is ridiculously good. Cornering is good, but between his speed, great B-throw, and Uair, there are things that can go wrong in that position. Needles help, but stage limitations and other things can make them less useful. Also, invincible ledgedash (Pika's is good). Unless you mean cornering as in, "Sheik is in the middle". In which case yeah it's good. You just don't want to be somewhere that Pikachu can throw you off, I think, or somewhere where Pikachu can start some Uair > platform > stuff combo.

Yes I was leaning more towards having stage control. Surely you could just space out anything that can be done from a ledgedash though? And I wouldn't think Pikachu should be getting close enough to Sheik to let Uair happen that often, let alone when Sheik is cornering him. If it happens though then yeah it's bad, but that's one of Sheik's main things is the corner game and Pika's stubby arms don't seem to negate that in my head but I don't main Sheik lol.

Her moves send fairly high up when DIed well (barring Fair, but hitting that on Pikachu is really hard). Needles can force him to get onstage for a punishment, but you don't really kill him with that for a while. He's definitely capable of making it back between his smash side-B and Up+B tricks (edgecancels are really annoying). A lot of stuff you'll use to punish his Up+B lag won't really form a good loop or anything, which is also kind of sucky at times. Though that one's got some positional and stage factors that affect it.

Amsah Fairs even?

Also if edgecancels are a problem then wouldn't you try to cover high options more frequently(Bair even sticks upward right)?

Getting a grab and fair'ing to send pikachu at a low angle seems pretty good. I guess that doesn't work until later %s that he would already be dead at on most stages though?


However, don't get me wrong. I certainly feel Sheik tacks damage on Pikachu better than vice versa. Mostly because of d-throw. If you're comparing Pikachu to Ganon then I'd say Ganon tacks damage on more when he gets his key punishes but Pikachu's more consistent at hitting her and getting small stuff going.

So would you say the main difference between the two(Ganon vs Pika in the Sheik matchup) is that Pikachu has potential to get more first hits and has an actual recovery?


CC dash grab is difficult because his tilt isn't very laggy. I'm also going to suggest that Pikachu shouldn't be attacking directly into Sheik's duck and that ASDI down is much weaker. This combination makes it harder for Sheik to make first moves.

Okay okay ASDI down I should have clarified. But I'm saying if Pikachu were to attempt Dtilt after like a Sheik SH Fair or Ftilt(all of these spaced) or something then wouldn't you have time to Dsmash/Ftilt/Dtilt/maybe grab or Nair or something if you felt that were possible? It seems like Sheik could do that in my head but I've never played that matchup ever lol. I just feel like Sheik's ASDI down should be enough to get...something off even if the Dtilt is fast.

Heck, Sheik could make first moves that could be "unsafe" while holding down to punish moves like Pika Dtilt and be okay since the ASDI down punish would be powerful and then by conditioning be very fear-inducing when you used moves you would normally ASDI down during.


Pikachu's Nairs are surprisingly safe when placed low, and non-FFed Nairs often cross up. So it's not really that easy to punish them unless you outprioritize them or move out of the way. The former requires commitment, which is sucky. The latter is made complicated by Pikachu being fast.

Isn't Pikachu's Nair easy to outprioritize though? If he's not Dtilt'ing I would think a Nair is coming(especially in an aggressive player like Axe's case) so it should be simple enough to position yourself accordingly if you see some DD'ing that typically precedes said Nair.

Now I mean if you don't get the punish then yeah Pikachu is tough close up like that because then you have the worry of Uair nonsense but I'm not sure about how often that scenario should be occurring.



I feel you can prevent Ganon from getting the ball rolling fairly easily. Even good Ganons seem to fold to camping strategies as long as you're not willing to jump into the ****. His moves can be stuffed really easily too. The fact that Ganon has to rely on reads because of his poor speed is also an issue because it's really hard for him to chase Sheik's tech rolls / retreats / other defensive movement stuff without guessing (even with guessing far in advance he still can't get them sometimes). I'll agree that if Ganon gets his spacing going, it can be hard to deal with it but I do feel Pikachu outperforms him in many aspects of the matchup.

Ganon's extreme fragility doesn't offset his potential power, to me. He's just too easy to hit and shut out.

Right, the speed seems to be the big difference maker from what I'm seeing. Lol the modern metagame sure is funny.


Indeed.
Responses in bold.
 

tw1n

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 22, 2007
Messages
2,249
Location
Albuquerque
The more I read the more i feel like playing Axe and trying to exploit Pikachus weaknesses to test some theories...
 

Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
Well all I have to say is that most players are unfamiliar with the Pikachu matchup since hell, who plays vs that yellow rat a lot at max level? Once most people know the matchup I'm sure it's going to be much harder for Pikachu players to do well, that's what I think. Well since I'm going to Zenith and Axe is going, I guess I'll go and fight him and see what's it like for real.. I remember in teams at least I don't normally have trouble with Pikachu, sure he has speed but he really has to pick his moves to approach because if not Ganon is going to **** Pika in the air no problem, that I know for sure. I don't think you weigh enough the lack of range, it's pretty big in that matchup.
 

Bl@ckChris

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 4, 2009
Messages
7,443
Location
Greensboro, NC
well, i think ganon beats pikachu, but i think pikachu deals better with a lot of characters that ganon doesn't deal that well with. primarily due to his speed.
 

lord karn

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 18, 2004
Messages
4,324
Location
Raleigh, NC
Ok, so info on the fest tomorrow.

We can play at my place tomorrow after 1, but I don't think we could have too many people over. I don't think Monica would be cool with like 10 people coming over, which is sensible IMO, because that is a lot of people. I'll talk to her about it later, but if we play at my place probably not too many people. I'll see if I can get a room in Cobb later today as well.

So if lots of people are trying to play, and I can't find a place, where will we go?
 

-ACE-

Gotem City Vigilante
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
11,536
Location
The back country, GA
Ganon prob does better vs marth, IC's, the marios, the links, and a few more. Falcon is debatable and many are close. Pika is better vs spacies which is huge. And yeah ganon prob beats pika, but you don't want to get caught above her lol
 

bossa nova ♪

Smash Champion
Joined
Feb 15, 2010
Messages
2,876
party at karn's?


lol


well ace has to go to chapel hill so that sucks cuz i'm sure we could find a place in raleigh that could fit a bunch of peeps


i guess my ideal of having a decently large smashfest isn't realistic this weekend ;((
 
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