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Nayru's Oracle: The Official Zelda Matchup Thread! Currently Discussing: Peach

Fuujin

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Also remember that when Wario's bike is on stage, he can't recover very well, so this could be a free edgehog for you.
Dat airspeed and waft tho....


For advantages on Marth you can add that Marth is light?
I mean you have no reliable way to kill him if he spaces well and DIs her smashes other than D smash but hes kinda light.

Maybe that he doesn't have a projectile?


Wario I think is -2, Zelda's grab release options and grab range keep it from being any worse imo.
Zelda's grab is crap though and because he's an aerial based character d tilt won't be hitting him much so its kinda hard to grab him.
BUT a lot of his aerials don't have much range so Zelda's grab range usually beats out his aerials, so I think you have to be kinda smart and get good reads to pull off grabs consecutively.
I know Zelda has her f air and d air sweetspots out of a GR that are guaranteed.
I know she can u smash and u tilt too, though I think a sweet spotted f air or d air are always the best options.
Kayla had something about her being able to infinite him, I tried it once in a match and it was kinda hard for me so idk....
When you consider how hard it can be to grab him in the first place I think you're better off hitting him with a LK when the opportunity arises.
If you grab him by the ledge you should always go for the d air.

Wario's airspeed makes it much harder to grab him it also makes some of his aerials a lot safer.
I would be careful throwing out up smash in this match because you could end up getting punished for it.
Side smash can be baited and punished as well, so be careful using this unless the Wario is playing a more grounded game.
D smash isn't really too useful unless it's OOS, but its great for punishing his ground moves if you they don't have enough lag to be grabbed.
Din's isn't really good, like Mocha said his aerials go through it but you can use it to punish him if hes forced to used his motorcycle offstage.
Nayru's is sort of bad too.

Wario usually approaches with spaced f air/b air, he also uses them harass characters off stage and Zelda is a prime target for this due to her floatyness and size.
These are pretty safe because of his airspeed so you probably won't be able to punish him but they aren't too strong imo so they shouldn't give too much trouble.
Up air is his best aerial, its super fast has a nice hit box, does good damage and kills.
Watch out for this move at low AND high percents, at low percents he can combo it on a grounded character to other moves like F smash and at high percents he goes in for the kill with it. Apparently this move can shield poke an almost full shield on Zelda http://youtu.be/JQZHU7TSh3s?t=1m38s :/...
His N air can be used to combo into other moves like F smash or grab(I think), I know it can combo into bite, so holding your shield up against N air doesn't always work.
I actually think him comboing his aerials to smash attacks/grabs are pretty risky for him, if he messes up you can punish with d tilt and d tilt leads to grab, so always try to anticipate these follow ups.

As far as his smash attacks, D smash is pretty bad and Wario probably wont even risk this on Zelda because even her super slow grab can punish it.
F smash is his best smash, it comes out super fast and is really strong, but you should almost always be able to follow up with a grab so that makes this move a pretty big risk for Wario.
Up smash isn't really great imo, you can DI it IIRC and Zelda's d tilt should stop his dacus.

Waft is really dangerous and Zeldas recovery is practiaclly begging to be hit by a fully charged waft.
I guess just hope the wario doesn't know her recovery patterns too well or else youll be dying at like 50 :/.
You may want to target your Farore's wind for the edge mostly, just to avoid the risk of getting wafted.
I don't think tires give Zelda too much trouble, it's actually much better when she has items available imo.

I think Zelda should play defensively and try lots of pivot grabs and keep away moves.
Try to scare the Wario into being afraid of Zelda's grab.
Stay grounded as often as you can unless you need to punish something with n air.

CP: FD, maybe SV
Ban: BF, Brinstar, RC, maybe YI, anystages that jeopordize your GR options.

Things to note:
*Don't challenge Wario in the air, the character with one of the worst aerials games will not beat out the character with one of the best aerial games.
*Some Wario's will throw their tires from the bike downward so they bounce, and the hitbox still stayes out while its bouncing. They often uses this for set ups or spacing in general. I'm not positive but I think if the reflector part of Nayru's Love comes in contact with a bouncing tire it will still reflect it and make it yours.
*If his bike is left on the ground it acts the same as the pillars at Luigi's Mansion or the Statues at Caslt Seige, meaning it expands the hitbox duration of F smash and U smash.
So charging f smash on the bike is pretty safe and can trick the Wario.

Edit: I haven't played a Wario other than BP in a really long time so my memory isn't really too fresh on this MU.
 

KuroganeHammer

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For advantages on Marth you can add that Marth is light?
I mean you have no reliable way to kill him if he spaces well and DIs her smashes other than D smash but hes kinda light.
Except no good player will ever get killed by a fresh d-smash until 140% at least.

I fresh d-smashed a Bowser (on why-fyee lol) on THE EDGE of smashville at 144%, and he was like: "lolno" and survived the other day. I mean, wtf.

Everyone in Australia has godlike DI though. I dunno if it's like that in the US seeing as you somehow manage to kill people with the move. lol
 

Fuujin

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Well sometimes people DI down and if they have subpar recoveries that can kill them.
When they DI upward though, d smash isn't really a great kill move.
I think up smash being escapable by marth REALLY hurts her in that MU.

Like U smash and F smash are both unreliable, D smash isn't really that strong and only hit's below her, Marth's Sword >>>> Lightning Kicks.
She can usually kill things pretty early but it's actually pretty hard to Kill Marth if he knows he can escape up smash.
 

KuroganeHammer

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Yeah, but like, rarely do people ever DI down when fighting against me. ;_____;

Up smash is effectively nullified in this MU since Marth can punish it when he DI's out (It happens to me A LOT). Maybe utilt has a place in the Marth MU? I've never actually tried it.

Marth dies earlier vertically than horizontally I assume since he's not that fat.
 

Kataefi

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wario is crazy. pivot grabs can be cool to throw out every now and then imo. I've done bair from a grab release. Just use one kick for damage and the other for kills depending on percent.

I just try to camp with kicks and fsmash and retreating nairs if possible. Jabs can be good but it does no damage.

It's hard because he spaces so fast in the air, and you kind of have to play fast otherwise he puts the pressure right on. It's a tense matchup imo. I hate his grab.

Against dair/uair it's best to angle your shield up. Dair can also poke shields reeeally well.
 

Darkmusician

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Against Wario you need to stay in control of the match for as much as possible. And like most of her match ups a big key is to stay alive for a long as you can. Always prioritize adjusting the spacing over going for something crazy or risky. Wario is a slippery character so be careful for baits and other funny stuff like reverse f-smash, bite mind games etc. If you're not sure if you can get the punish or not just play it safe and back off unless you are ahead and can afford it.

Watch for approach and defensive snap reflex habits. This will make grabbing him much easier and will put pressure on the Wario sending a message that you're in his head. Other than that always keep the spacing as much as possible, watch the clock and remember what moves you've staled and which are fresh for early kills.

I'd say this is about -2. Stage also makes a difference of course.
 

Alacion

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:wario: Wario -2 (Medium Disadvantage)
[COLLAPSE="Summary"]
Advantages
-Zelda has one of the most devastating grab release follow ups with her guaranteed forward air

Disadvantages
-Wario excels in the air and has excellent aerial approaches which gives Zelda a difficult time.
-Wario can be unpredictable.
-Powerful attacks such as forward smash, up air, and Wario Waft.

Things to Keep in Mind
-Take advantage of Wario's grab release weakness with a forward air, down air (at ledge), up tilt, or an up smash.
-Watch your spacing! (as usual)
-Careful with Zelda's smashes. They last a while and allow Wario to easily punish her.
-Wario's forward smash is very powerful with super armour. Watch out and punish the ending lag!
-Wario's neutral air can easily cancel Din's Fire.
-Watch out for Wario's up air (the clap!!), it has combo potential at lower percents, KO potential at mid-high percents and can shieldpoke a nearly full shield.
-Wario can DACUS. Thankfully it's not difficult to escape with DI and it can also be stopped with a down tilt.
-Watch out for Wario Waft. It is the most dangerous just before it is fully charged so watch the timer, and the attack has hitboxes all around him (even above). It's perfect to punish any of Zelda's laggy moves. Aim Farore's at the ledge to stay safe from the Waft.
-Play very defensive, and pivot grab! This can possibly make Wario think twice about approaching.
-Stay grounded where Zelda excels, unless you are sure you can safely punish.
-Watch out for a bouncing tire! The hitboxes are still active and are good for spacing and for devastating followups such as a forward smash.
-Watch out for Bite mindgames. Watch your spacing since the move lands more easily than you think and it can bypass Zelda's shield.
-Stay safe and be patient.
-Observe how Wario approaches you and what he does to stay safe. Learn these habits and punish.
-Watch the timer and keep in mind which moves are stale and fresh.

Random Facts
-When Wario's bike is on the floor, it has similar properties like the pillars in Luigi's Mansion or the statues in Castle Siege? By using a forward/up smash on the bike, the duration of those hitboxes extend and may fool Wario. (Keep in mind this also makes you vulnerable)
-Wario's Waft fully charges in approximately 1 minute and 50 seconds. It has the most knockback potential just before it is fully charged, and less knockback when fully charged. It activates on frame 3.

Stage Selection

Counterpicks
-Final Destination
-Smashville

Stage Bans
Any stage that most inhibits your grab release options.

-Battlefield
-Brinstar
-Rainbow Cruise
-Yoshi's Island
[/COLLAPSE]

That's that for Wario. Please let me know of any errors or possible additions.


The most adorable character(s) in the game, Ice Climbers, are up!
 

KuroganeHammer

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We're easy to infinite chaingrab.

We can be hobbled too.

-4 because we have no safe options on their shield apart from long ranged Din's Fire.
 

Mocha

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I played Smoom in both friendlies and tournament a couple of weeks ago. I told him I needed ICs MU practice cause I literally had none, so he agreed to play me. His ICs are very good, and he's poweranked here. This MU requires a great deal of patience, mashing, and not doing dumb/unnecessary things that will get you grabbed. Just because Zelda can't be cg'd easily by characters like Falco and D3, that doesn't mean ICs can't infinite her. They very much can.

Avoid FD at all costs. I try to go for stages that either move, or have platforms. If in doubt about neutral stage, SV's moving platform is both good and bad for us. In general being on top of a platform is bad, because they can just poke in up airs at you. It is also possible for them to infinite you on the platform itself, so be careful with that. Zelda's fsmash and dsmash cover her if they're trying to move on the platform of SV. Do not be over confident about using these moves on the ground though, especially because they can shield DI it, or do a running spot dodge/bait move + grab the cooldown.

I've probably mentioned this a million times but do NOT use Nayru's Love on the ground. Even if you do manage to hit them, it's not worth the measly damage which can put you in risk for a grab if they shield through it. Same with Upsmash. Due to the cooldown of it, they can also shield grab you from this. Use Upsmash to punish landings, but still be wary of things like them air dodging away from you just as you're barely inches from upsmashing them.

None of her tilts are safe against them, as they can also be shield grabbed, and her jab may poke their shield, but they're still a bit too close for comfort. You want them as far away from you as possible. Use Din's from a distance and midrange (but be more careful at this point) and when they get close, run away. Learn aerial canceling, especially nair cancels, to make escaping easier. Try and find a frame trap spacing with aerial canceling in which it allows you to keep just out of range from their grab, if possible. Do not become predictable in the air though, especially with things like air dodges, which they'll pick up on, and try and punish.

Planking sucks because they can use blizzard near the edge, or ice block, which can eat your jump and put you in a very bad position to recover. Try to aim for the edge as much as you can when recovering with Zelda, and if you're on a stage with platforms, mix it up by going for the top of the platforms, unless they ARE on the platforms expecting it.

80:20 imo, possibly 70:30 if the Zelda can perfectly space from being grabbed and is very confident in the MU, but for now, I'm not at all comfy with this MU yet. This is just based from my own experience, if anyone here thinks it's better for her, then they're doing something I'm not, and I would love to know what it is, if it's true.
 

KuroganeHammer

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Smashville is a really good stage. IC's can TRY to poke up airs at you, but it doesn't really work that well if you just jump over them and you manage your jumps properly. (especially since we can stay in the air for quite a while.)

Ice Climbers are weird, there's an IC player I play regularly, he beats me most of the time, but if he just rushes in and tries to get a grab, I usually two stock him, lol.

IC's have to play very carefully in this MU. Most of their other moves are generally quite rubbish and crap apart from up air (which can kill) and Blizzard.

Edit:

Also no, up smash is a bad idea in this MU (Again!), since you will get punished for it when they DI out of it.
 

Fuujin

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Learn aerial canceling, especially nair cancels, to make escaping easier. Try and find a frame trap spacing with aerial canceling in which it allows you to keep just out of range from their grab, if possible. Do not become predictable in the air though, especially with things like air dodges, which they'll pick up on, and try and punish.
umm..nair isn't safe on shield.
Like at all lol.
I wouldn't recommend using this unless you're fairly positive it will hit them.

It's really nice on them when they're in the air though.

80:20 imo, possibly 70:30 if the Zelda can perfectly space from being grabbed and is very confident in the MU, but for now, I'm not at all comfy with this MU yet. This is just based from my own experience, if anyone here thinks it's better for her, then they're doing something I'm not, and I would love to know what it is, if it's true.
So does this translate to -3 or -4 for you lol?

Also no, up smash is a bad idea in this MU (Again!), since you will get punished for it when they DI out of it.
Well It's really hard for them to both DI out if they get caught in it, but really easy for just one.

I played like 6 different MMs with like 5 ICs at Apex.(Prawn, Ori, Raptor, then two others I forget their names).
The way the ICs play and the tricks they know really effect this MU, when they desperately run in for the grab things are really nice for Zelda, but when they play smart and know how to get past f smash this MU is horrible for Zelda.
I think we should get Prawn(at least i think it was him, idk i played a lot of ICs that day) in here, we played 2 MMs in a row and I managed to beat him the first time, but the second time immediately after our first set he was able to beat my pretty solidly.
He figured the MU out in just like 2 matches and went from losing to winning by a lot.

And then Hylian, after he found out how to get past f smash he thinks the MU is super easy lol
 

z00ted

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Might be off topic, but I'm definitely convinced that Zelda vs Peach is -3 for her.
The matchup is abysmal.
 

Fuujin

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Me too!

I mean MAYBE I'm just doing something terrible wrong against you, but Peach just wrecks Zelda!
Especially yours, and even now that Nicole stepped her game up she beats me pretty bad too.

I tried to get Riot to play you @ apex, he said he had to go eat instead.
Maybe he was scared...:smirk:.

When Peach doesn't go so aggro and gives Zelda room to breath it's much easier, but Zelda doesn't even have a proper shield grab because her grab 12 frames, so she has no options to combat peaches shield pressure.
D smash comes out really fast but it hits too low, peach mostly puts on pressure from above and diagonally(at least at the start of her combos)

I played Ill @ Whobo AND Apex and while may no have been playing my absolute greatest both times, I think I was playing well enough to realize that it's AT LEAST -3.
 

z00ted

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I'm pretty confident in this matchup now, I actually think it's one of my best because aggressive Peach works so well in it... it's almost unbelievable. I feel so bad because she really can't do anything out of shield and I'm just everywhere...

Mocha and Diska came over to my house yesterday for practice, and we played a bunch.

Based off of like the fifteen friendlies we played, and how both of our money matches went at WHOBO 3 and Apex (Fuujin), I can definitely say that I understand it well now. I wouldn't have a problem playing Riot to the best of my ability anymore.

Throughout my entire history against her, only once has a Zelda taken me to last stock (and that match is where she beat me). Every other match is either a three stock, or extremely convincing two stock.

An aggressive Peach is just far too fast. Her out of shield options utterly destroy Zelda, and Zelda doesn't have any options to ward off her dair. The priority of the move puts Zelda in such an awkward position, that she can't really do anything besides out of shield U-Smash or U-tilt (if my spacing is extremely bad) or just jabbing in front of me.

Throw in the fact that turnips give Peach so much mobility and speed as far as approaching goes, jab combos into grab, ground floated nair is faster than your jab, plus Zelda is pretty floaty and really easy to punish landings.

I think the biggest problem in this matchup, is Zelda offstage.

She has to make it back to the LEDGE (if she doesn't hit the ledge, prepare to go flying back offstage, due to Peach's extremely fast ground floated aerials). While trying to do this, she has to take into account Peach's turnip game, Peach's float.. which really destroys Zelda because we can go offstage and hit you out of the startup of teleport or whatever, then follow you back to stage and hit you right back off if you don't hit the ledge. While you are near the ledge we could have already thrown a turnip or two up there to cover that option.

Like, from my experience... countless amount of times.. once a Zelda is above 70%, she's practically already dead because she's not going to make a sturdy position back onstage. I just keep on hitting her back offstage, kill power barely even matters anymore.

Another thing are my out of shield options, there are way too many situations where we're both next to each other shielding, and I just destroy Zelda because my reaction time and nair or bair, even... are just so much faster than everything she has.

I uploaded videos of Mocha Vs. Myself, if anyone is interested.
I honestly feel like Peach could be one of Zelda's worst matchups at a -3 or even -4.

Sidenote: Mocha has a very strong Zelda. I can definitely see it being within top 3 very soon, if not already holding the position. Saw some very cool things that I've never experienced before.
 

zmx

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"Also remember that when Wario's bike is on stage, he can't recover very well, so this could be a free edgehog for you."

I've been hearing this a lot lately and I wanted to point out it's not true at all. Wario has one of the best drift capabilities in the game. That alone with good DI is more than enough to get him back on stage with little more than a jump. He almost NEVER has to resort to his up B unless he took a risk and went really low on purpose.

I'd argue Wario has one of the best recoveries in the game just looking at his amazing drifting properties. And this is before considering his bike, up b, and waft.
 

z00ted

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Metaknight has the best recovery in the game, then probably Wario.
 

Fuujin

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Sidenote: Mocha has a very strong Zelda. I can definitely see it being within top 3 very soon, if not already holding the position. Saw some very cool things that I've never experienced before.
I agree with this.

She lives in a super stacked region.
Her results are already really good and she's only been to a few tournaments.

Metaknight has the best recovery in the game, then probably Wario.
Pit tho...

Also you have successfully derailed this thread.
 

Alacion

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Wasn't there a video of a Ganondorf decisively 2 stocking a good Peach?

:phone:
 

Alacion

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How would the Peach matchup change with some good turnip control on Zelda's part? I haven't seen Mocha's videos but I think I'm half decent with turnips from my experience playing as Peach. I really don't think the MU is -4 lol.

Turnips do give Zelda access to her rather good glide toss...

:phone:
 

Fuujin

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How would the Peach matchup change with some good turnip control on Zelda's part? I haven't seen Mocha's videos but I think I'm half decent with turnips from my experience playing as Peach. I really don't think the MU is -4 lol.

Turnips do give Zelda access to her rather good glide toss...

:phone:
Lol good luck getting a chance to catch and use a turnip against Illmatic's Peach.

From my experience holding a turnip doesn't do Zelda any good.
 

KuroganeHammer

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Peach vs Zelda is bad, but it's not worse than Wolf vs Zelda, though I definitely agree with it being -3.

Peach's dair doesn't really work in the MU though because up smash.

Also Fuujin, the Ice Climbers you're playing are obvs not DI'ing properly. =P

:phone:

Edit: That's from my experience anyway. I haven't played many amazing Peachs and the up smash comment could be theorycrafting (but I still haven't seen dair beat it, so Peach is probably better off baiting Zelderp into up smash and punishing with Dair.)
 

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umm..nair isn't safe on shield.
Like at all lol.
I wouldn't recommend using this unless you're fairly positive it will hit them.

It's really nice on them when they're in the air though.
Not so much on their shield, but in general. It's possible to shield grab nair, which is why I mentioned finding a way to space nair canceling so that you are out of their grab reach.

So does this translate to -3 or -4 for you lol?
Either one of those two could work, though I blame my lack of sufficient ICs practice. It's hard for me to say they're as bad as Olimar though, so I'll go with -3.

I'm pretty confident in this matchup now, I actually think it's one of my best because aggressive Peach works so well in it... it's almost unbelievable. I feel so bad because she really can't do anything out of shield and I'm just everywhere...

Mocha and Diska came over to my house yesterday for practice, and we played a bunch.

Based off of like the fifteen friendlies we played, and how both of our money matches went at WHOBO 3 and Apex (Fuujin), I can definitely say that I understand it well now. I wouldn't have a problem playing Riot to the best of my ability anymore.

Throughout my entire history against her, only once has a Zelda taken me to last stock (and that match is where she beat me). Every other match is either a three stock, or extremely convincing two stock.

An aggressive Peach is just far too fast. Her out of shield options utterly destroy Zelda, and Zelda doesn't have any options to ward off her dair. The priority of the move puts Zelda in such an awkward position, that she can't really do anything besides out of shield U-Smash or U-tilt (if my spacing is extremely bad) or just jabbing in front of me.

Throw in the fact that turnips give Peach so much mobility and speed as far as approaching goes, jab combos into grab, ground floated nair is faster than your jab, plus Zelda is pretty floaty and really easy to punish landings.

I think the biggest problem in this matchup, is Zelda offstage.

She has to make it back to the LEDGE (if she doesn't hit the ledge, prepare to go flying back offstage, due to Peach's extremely fast ground floated aerials). While trying to do this, she has to take into account Peach's turnip game, Peach's float.. which really destroys Zelda because we can go offstage and hit you out of the startup of teleport or whatever, then follow you back to stage and hit you right back off if you don't hit the ledge. While you are near the ledge we could have already thrown a turnip or two up there to cover that option.

Like, from my experience... countless amount of times.. once a Zelda is above 70%, she's practically already dead because she's not going to make a sturdy position back onstage. I just keep on hitting her back offstage, kill power barely even matters anymore.

Another thing are my out of shield options, there are way too many situations where we're both next to each other shielding, and I just destroy Zelda because my reaction time and nair or bair, even... are just so much faster than everything she has.

I uploaded videos of Mocha Vs. Myself, if anyone is interested.
I honestly feel like Peach could be one of Zelda's worst matchups at a -3 or even -4.

Sidenote: Mocha has a very strong Zelda. I can definitely see it being within top 3 very soon, if not already holding the position. Saw some very cool things that I've never experienced before.

Poor Zelda :c
I agree with just about everything he said regarding Peach. Illmatic's Peach is the most aggressive and effective Peach I've played, so it's easy to be thrown off by it. He often put me in rough spots, and constantly pressured me and my spacing. An aggressive Peach can be overwhelming if you don't have time to slow down and try to analyze the situation.

Peach is a bad MU for her, but not her worst lol. Olimar/MK/ICs are her worst, in my opinion. Maybe Riot can show me otherwise

Sidenote: Mocha has a very strong Zelda. I can definitely see it being within top 3 very soon, if not already holding the position. Saw some very cool things that I've never experienced before.
Appreciate it, Illmatic, but I don't think I'm all that good. Character itself aside, there are a lot of things I still fail to do, or make the wrong technical inputs, and I'm still learning how to adapt/learn matchups.

Those were good games though. Amazing Peach, you definitely deserved to take 1st place in Dallas

I agree with this.

She lives in a super stacked region.
Her results are already really good and she's only been to a few tournaments.
I can't even get top 5 lol. Riot/Ed also have better placings. I'm okay, but not amazing, and I'm not consistently playing well. Some days I do fine, others I play terrible. My Zelda is overrated, though I appreciate the feedback. I just want to get better.
 

Alacion

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Um who besides Mocha thinks she belongs in top 5?

I do at the very least.

I think you may be underrating yourself. Hell if you're bad then what am I, lol?
 

Fuujin

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Not so much on their shield, but in general. It's possible to shield grab nair, which is why I mentioned finding a way to space nair canceling so that you are out of their grab reach.



Either one of those two could work, though I blame my lack of sufficient ICs practice. It's hard for me to say they're as bad as Olimar though, so I'll go with -3.



I agree with just about everything he said regarding Peach. Illmatic's Peach is the most aggressive and effective Peach I've played, so it's easy to be thrown off by it. He often put me in rough spots, and constantly pressured me and my spacing. An aggressive Peach can be overwhelming if you don't have time to slow down and try to analyze the situation.

Peach is a bad MU for her, but not her worst lol. Olimar/MK/ICs are her worst, in my opinion. Maybe Riot can show me otherwise



Appreciate it, Illmatic, but I don't think I'm all that good. Character itself aside, there are a lot of things I still fail to do, or make the wrong technical inputs, and I'm still learning how to adapt/learn matchups.

Those were good games though. Amazing Peach, you definitely deserved to take 1st place in Dallas



I can't even get top 5 lol. Riot/Ed also have better placings. I'm okay, but not amazing, and I'm not consistently playing well. Some days I do fine, others I play terrible. My Zelda is overrated, though I appreciate the feedback. I just want to get better.
You live in Texas.
If you ever get top 5 you should probably be moved to #1 lol.
 

Fuujin

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I love how Illmatic comes and changes the topic up then disappears lol.

Anyways It's a little reassuring to know I'm not the only Zelda who gets wrecked by his Peach.

On to the ICs topic.
I'm a little torn between -4 and -3.
But I think -3 maybe?
I mean it's really bad when the ICs are smart and apparently it's really easy to CG her.
But I don't think its as bad as -4, I feel like she has a little going for her in this MU.
I'll type more later.
 

KuroganeHammer

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What does she have going for her when:

ICs get the lead easier
ICs keep away easier
When Zelda is forced to approach, they grab her and take a stock.

Technically f-smash is our only viable move.

Occasionally I chuck a grab out there in hopes to separate them, but most of the time it doesn't work unless they were really expecting an up smash or something.

-4, I still don't see what Zelda can do at high levels in this MU.

:phone:
 

Fuujin

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I say -3.
Zelda's only safe move on them is F smash and apparently that's not safe with SSDI.
I've yet to see anyone SSDI F smash and grab her out of it, but if they did it would probably be -4.

Either way this match up is really bad, a smart IC player that doesn't rush in for the grab without thinking is going to give Zelda a really hard time.
I think because of a majority of Zelda's moves having high ending lag or aren't reliable enough to keep them away makes things really bad for Zelda.
From far away she can out camp them because of of Nana, but once ICs get to mid/close range it's bad idea to try and hit them with it.

When they get close LKs don't work even if you do sweet spot them because you just get punished by the IC that didn't get hit, Jab/Nair/D tilt don't have enough range to be safe on shield, and F tilt is too slow.
Try to space them with F smash but I know they can run and spot dodge F smash and land a grab still, so I think you should walk backwards and pivot F smash to make things a little safer.
The hard part comes when she gets near the ledge, I mean she can try to jump above them to a platform but then you just get U aired.
Then when she gets offstage....
Farore's is basically asking for a free grab unless you go for the ledge, but if they ledge hog you're dead.
I would NEVER recommend love jumping in this MU while there are two ICs onstage together, you're better off just using Farore's to the ledge.

CP: PS2, RC, Norfair, SV?, Luigis Mansion if it's legal lol.
Ban: FD
The bad thing about CPs is that you'll almost never play them on the stages they're terrible on.
Almost every IC main has a secondary specifically for when they get CPd.

  • Aim Din's in a downward arc when trying to out camp their Ice blocks, so that when Zelda gets hit by them Din's will hit the ground and punish the IC's
  • Don't use Naryu's Love unless you're very positive you can catch both of them in it.
  • Try not to Farore's on the stage if the IC's are in a position to punish.
  • Don't approach, at all. You'll just get grabbed.
  • Don't use Din's Fire at close or medium range.
 

KuroganeHammer

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Smashville is a decent CP since you can camp on that moving platform and they can't do much about it.

Brinstar is good too, even though it's not a great Zelda stage.
 

Alacion

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Okay here's the latest entry! Please let me know of any additions/corrections!

:popo: Ice Climbers -3 (Large Disadvantage)
[COLLAPSE="Summary"]
Advantages
-Zelda can cause major damage if Popo and Nana are separated
-Zelda is able to apply good off stage pressure

Disadvantages
-Zelda is one of the easiest characters to chaingrab
-Zelda has no way to approach Ice Climbers
-Desynched Ice Blocks, Blizzard Wall, and Edge Hog heavily reduce Zelda's options
-Zelda is tall, making her easier to hobble
-If the Ice Climbers apply ISSDI shield grabs, Zelda's entire game is almost shut down

Things to Keep in Mind
-Don't approach the Ice Climbers!
-Know your moveset well! You'll want to avoid using moves with tons of endlag to prevent being grabbed. Farore's Wind and Nayru's Love are prime candidates.
-Players tend to play more campy and Zelda is no exception. However, don't use Din's Fire at close to medium range.
-Use Din's Fire by aiming it to the ground so it still has a chance to connect if Zelda is interrupted with an Ice Block
-Try to keep the Ice Climbers away by pressuring with forward smash
-Careful with your lightning kicks. A power-shielded sweetspot kick will result in you being grabbed
-Ice Climbers have a very good up air. Don't let them juggle you with it!
-Avoid using Farore's Wind to recover on the stage, but keep this option open against a desynched edge hog
-Love Jumps aren't recommended as they take away Zelda's second jump and lags her at the end, reducing her options which can lead to a grab.


Stage Selection

Counterpicks
-Pokemon Stadium 2
-Rainbow Cruise
-Smashville
-Brinstar

Stage Bans
-Final Destination
[/COLLAPSE]


The detestable Olimar is now up!
 
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